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theooze
Feb 26, 2003, 1:02 AM
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Umm, what if you had to choose?
Would it affect your answer if you knew there was no climbing in heaven?
Or no sex in heaven?
What if you could only climb in hell (technically caving, but still) and could only have sex in hell, even though you are constantly roasting like a christmas goose? And in heaven you have to sit around praising God all day and they don't even allow weed or TV?
What would you choose?
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vegastradguy
Feb 26, 2003, 1:06 AM
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well, seeing as I'm going to live forever, I'll leave the debate on this one to others....
in the meantime, i'm off to the crag!
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h2oclimber
Feb 26, 2003, 1:18 AM
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what kind of heaven wouldn't have sex or climbing? if you get to that heaven I think you were lied to and you are actually in hell.
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w6jxm
Feb 26, 2003, 1:31 AM
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Heaven with no climbing IS hell :lol:
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godsmybelayer
Feb 26, 2003, 1:32 AM
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Those things are not that important to me, being shadowed in the light of getting to know God...The One who created the entire universe, and learning from him. And I know this may make me different, but I think I would be happy praising God for eternity.
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josher
Feb 26, 2003, 1:37 AM
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sometimes there one in the same (2me)
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moabbeth
Feb 26, 2003, 1:46 AM
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A heaven with no sex or climbing...what kind of heaven is that???
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josher
Feb 26, 2003, 1:47 AM
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In reply to: A heaven with no sex or climbing...what kind of heaven is that??? |
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xanx
Feb 26, 2003, 1:50 AM
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is it really for us to debate this? what sensible person would SERIOUSLY chose eternal torment (and sex and climbing) over the eternal pleasure of heaven?
if u are all going to respons, at least think first, instead of just saying "whatkind of heaven doesn't have sex and climbing" ect...
unless u are a masochist. then feel free to chose hell
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josher
Feb 26, 2003, 1:52 AM
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i think people make that choice every day.
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camhead
Feb 26, 2003, 2:03 AM
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depends on if climbing is a vice or a sacrament, I guess.
honestly ooze, I think a better grounded topic would be "what if santa says you get coal in your stocking if you climb?"
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twrock
Feb 26, 2003, 2:07 AM
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Reminds me of the little girl who asked her mom if there would be dogs in heaven. Her mom replied that if having her dog in heaven would be what made her happy, then there sure would be dogs in heaven.
Most of the time we can't even ask the right questions, let alone have the right answers, when it comes to God. Little children we are.
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h2oclimber
Feb 26, 2003, 2:09 AM
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definately coal and climbing
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h2oclimber
Feb 26, 2003, 2:13 AM
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how about if you could only climb agian if you gave up sex? which would you choose?
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mike_ok
Feb 26, 2003, 2:17 AM
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Before giving an answer to the question, I must explain a bit about myself so that you understand my bias. First, I am about to graduate as the Philosophy TA at a small private college. I majored in both Theology and Philosophy. I read both subjects for fun, and intend on teaching in Philosophical Theology at the university level. I have read classical theology through postmodern theology. I have argued for and against the recent vogue of narrative theology. As a philosopher I've debated the ontological meaning of the concepts of heaven and hell. Discussions as to what we can possibly mean by positing these metaphysical realities, along with the consequences these realities would entail concerning the nature of God (especially a Triune God) are regularly found among friends and academic collegues.
I must say that this topic as it is so eloquently here presented, is perhaps one of the best questions ever posed in the debates on God, eternity, climbing, free-will, ethics, and metaphysics. I support the kind of mind experiment these questions entail, and I salute you for your effort.
All of that being said, given the above scenario, I choose Hell.
:twisted:
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camhead
Feb 26, 2003, 2:24 AM
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ahh, back to this topic, eh?
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h2oclimber
Feb 26, 2003, 2:27 AM
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He's good
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talons05
Feb 26, 2003, 2:34 AM
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You can only hope to accumulate enough good karma to be reborn as a TRAD climber... :lol:
However, let's say that there IS a heaven and a hell...
:twisted: "On Belay!" :twisted:
A.W.
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flying_dutchman
Feb 26, 2003, 2:35 AM
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the more i climb and the harder i push my self, the sooner i may be in heaven... I do not know what God's plan is for my life but i am certain it involves my climbing for some time yet. Therefore, I have both climbing and God in my life.
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jerryderl
Feb 26, 2003, 3:41 AM
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I feel sorry for those of you who do not truly know what heaven and hell are all about. The Bible is a very rock solid reference guide for what has happened and what will happen. If you have not made a choice to be with Jesus in heaven and except his forgiveness, you WILL go to hell. Not to be mean or anything I wish everyone could go to heaven. Climbing or no climbing, heaven will leave you longing for nothing but to glorify God even more than you will. I believe it will make you feel better than climbing ever has here on this earth. This is so temporary, this life means little compared to eternity in heaven.
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16
If you have any questions about heaven, please PM me I will be happy to discuss anything with you.
Jared
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whipper
Feb 26, 2003, 3:44 AM
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I am the One that you tiny people call THE DEVILand there is no heaven so climb hard and die young cause you really won't know when you are dead since you will cease to exist. oh yes scary but true
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djmeat
Feb 26, 2003, 3:45 AM
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^ thats was me....as if I had to tell you.
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curt
Feb 26, 2003, 4:05 AM
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I like Devils Lake. Does that count?
Curt
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tanner
Feb 26, 2003, 4:18 AM
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right On!!!!
If God made all this cool stuff for us on earth, and he says heaven is beond our comprehention. Well I would give up the stuff we have on earth in a second. Maybe climbing is so good in heaven they can't call it climbing any more.
God made me and he knows what I like!!!... :) :) :) :) :) :D
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rockjunkie
Feb 26, 2003, 4:41 AM
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i would pick climbing and sex. straight up, no questions. i'm sure heaven is cool and all if it exists but i dig these two things more than anything else in the world, so why change a good thing if your not so sure whats next will be better. though if heaven consists of that which makes you happy, it would be climbing and sex so it wouldn't even matter. but if given the choice- behind door number one is heaven, behind door number two is eternal awesome sex and unbelievable climbing, i must say i would have to go with the latter of the two.
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lynne
Feb 26, 2003, 4:50 AM
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hell here. No question.
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coldclimb
Feb 26, 2003, 5:15 AM
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I don't get it, but ok. I'd choose heaven, regardless. I'd watch you guys melt, and then I'd live forever in perfect happiness. see ya. :roll:
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tanner
Feb 26, 2003, 5:15 AM
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The Great thing about climbing in heaven will be it won't be so crowded!
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jerryderl
Feb 26, 2003, 5:26 AM
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In reply to: My point, Jared, is that no one in their right mind would CHOOSE heaven over climbing and sex - assuming, of course, that person has never experienced (or considered deeply) heaven (or as you've put it, a relationship with Jesus). It would be a silly thing to expect. Rather than just saying "If you don't believe in Jesus then you're going to hell," why don't you actually try to explain WHY anyone would even WANT to believe in Jesus. Josh
He's Right, I don't want to offend anybody. I too dislike the the preachers that say "repent or burn in hell!!!" I did sound a little like that. I think it's because it pains me too see how many people take it so lightly. I know that climbing and sex are awesome, like Josh said: "He made them, he should know how to make fun things"(paraphrazing),
but to me, my relationship with Jesus is way better than climbing, and I LOVE to climb.
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clundin_99
Feb 26, 2003, 5:39 AM
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It is honestly so sad to see how little people know about God. I mean I know that 'God' is a term that means different things to different people, but I mean some people are just not versed in their own perceptions of a higher being. Maybe I am naive because I am a devout Christian, but come on people. Climbing or God? It is sad to see that some of you would pick climbing over God. It is fun, don't get me wrong. But if you replied with any sense of sincerity, you are willing to forsake eternity for a rock. Try turning to THE ROCK! The Bible says it several times that God is our rock.
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tanner
Feb 26, 2003, 5:47 AM
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I'm sure the climbing in heaven is great!!
It is a little sad that people would put a sport infront or eternal life.
Besides If you like climbing so much, thank God he's the route setter.
and He sure did a good job eh!
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epic_ed
Feb 26, 2003, 6:01 AM
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Climbing and heaven are one in the same. When I die, I say screw the whole "angels wings" crap. I want a set of brass cahones so I can really climb.
Ed
"Where are we going? And why am I in this hand basket?"
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oklahoma
Feb 26, 2003, 6:05 AM
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I'm already going to hell so yes I'd go to hell for climbing
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copperhead
Feb 26, 2003, 6:06 AM
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Religion is a creation of those that imagine.
Quit playing in the sandbox.
There is no God.
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swohletz
Feb 26, 2003, 6:11 AM
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heaven...definitely. I don't think God will ask me to give up things He made me to enjoy though. Enough said.
-s
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jerryderl
Feb 26, 2003, 6:23 AM
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In reply to: Religion is a creation of those that imagine. Quit playing in the sandbox. There is no God.
Prove it.
Jesus lived.(Historical Fact, it is 2003 A.D.)
Almost anyone will say AT LEAST that he was a good man.
He claimed to be God.
Was he crazy? Couldn't be, could any psycho give the sermon on the mount?
Was he a liar? Would anybody say he was a good man if he was a liar?
Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the life, no man comes to the father except through me."
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copperhead
Feb 26, 2003, 6:24 AM
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Whatever...
Re. Prove it.
Prove that a God does exist. Do you have any scientific evidence or just a bunch of super-natural hocus-pocus feely jive?
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koto
Feb 26, 2003, 6:25 AM
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*says in voice like Guru*
When I die Buddha will wisk my spirit away to nirvana like place where the cliffs are clean and crisp, the ground does not cause pain, the beer is cold and the girls like me! :D
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copperhead
Feb 26, 2003, 6:28 AM
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Quit dreamin'!!!
We're all fertilizer when we die and nothing more, like it or not. Better have fun while you can.
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tanner
Feb 26, 2003, 6:33 AM
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God has to exist!! I'm reminded of that every time I look out side at the world around me. All the critters on the earth and the mountains and the oceans had to be created by some one greater than us. It would be crazy to think that all the life on earth and all the great land around us could be made by chance alone.
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waggas
Feb 26, 2003, 6:37 AM
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hmmm.... somewhat of a largely irrelevant question for me...
Since I don’t believe in god, I guess I’m going to hell anyway
(There’s something I never got…. “be bad person but believe, you’re in heaven… be a good person but don’t believe…. Sorry, you’re guest of honour at the BBQ…..” Nice deal….)
As for that old “but all this couldn’t have been created by chance” routine…. In a virtually limitless universe, they chances are that virtually everything that’s possible will exist at one point or another….
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copperhead
Feb 26, 2003, 6:41 AM
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"God has to exist!! I'm reminded of that every time I look out side at the world around me. All the critters on the earth and the mountains and the oceans had to be created by some one greater than us. It would be crazy to think that all the life on earth and all the great land around us could be made by chance alone."
Another example of the 'I can't prove it so I'll make up something else instead'...
Geologic time and 'chance' are quite capable of creating complexities that far exceed the capacity of the human mind.
Darwin and physics.
Nothing more.
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jerryderl
Feb 26, 2003, 6:43 AM
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Darwin himself on his deathbed stated that his theory was only a theory and no better than any other.
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jerryderl
Feb 26, 2003, 6:45 AM
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In reply to: As for that old “but all this couldn’t have been created by chance” routine…. In a virtually limitless universe, they chances are that virtually everything that’s possible will exist at one point or another….
Where did the virtually limitless universe come from?
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copperhead
Feb 26, 2003, 6:50 AM
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Heaven is only in your mind. Believe all you want, but you and I are nothing more than biological organisms with a lifespan and when our time is up, it's all over. Done. No more. Death. Darkness. Nothing. You can't comprehend it.
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tanner
Feb 26, 2003, 6:52 AM
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True, I can't prove many things. Just like I can't give you "proof" of God.
He has proved himself in my life.
I can't prove evolution, I understand it. But I can't prove it.
Not everything in life there is proof for. Its that simple
Its all about faith. You have just as much faith as I do, only your faith is in somthing diffrent. Both are unproven.
Tanner
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collegekid
Feb 26, 2003, 6:53 AM
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wow what a fun topic.
to REPLY TO THE ORIGINAL QUESTION,
I say, since there is neither a heaven nor a hell, or an afterlife, i am going to enjoy life and climbing while i still can, and not worry myself about things that don't exist.
It is pointless to argue about god. If you are truly intelligent, you will realize arguing against true believers is impossible. One can believe in god or not, it does not make a difference, and you can think up arguments supporting either one all day. (my opinion is that there really isn't a god)
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jerryderl
Feb 26, 2003, 6:53 AM
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Who is your opinion supported by?
What makes you think that?
Do you have proof?
I gave you historical proof, is that not good enough?
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collegekid
Feb 26, 2003, 6:56 AM
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really, please, this topic is futile.
Anyone of true intelligence and intellectual enlightenment will understand that it is nearly impossible to reverse brainwashing, especially when it has been ingrained in people since they were young.
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tanner
Feb 26, 2003, 6:57 AM
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I'm enjoying this topic,
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jerryderl
Feb 26, 2003, 6:57 AM
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My previous reply was in reference to copperheads latest reply.
But I must go to bed now. Just remember tomorrow when you right 2/26/03 on your check, that it is in reference to someone who DID exist and claims to be God.
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jerryderl
Feb 26, 2003, 7:01 AM
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In reply to: Anyone of true intelligence and intellectual enlightenment will understand that it is nearly impossible to reverse brainwashing, especially when it has been ingrained in people since they were young.
It can be tough to change one's mind about religion. But when people see God work it can happen quickly.
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tanner
Feb 26, 2003, 7:04 AM
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well I think this thread died, oh well
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tanner
Feb 26, 2003, 7:14 AM
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Its all good, I should go to sleep any way
Peace out
Tanner
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easysteve2
Feb 26, 2003, 7:24 AM
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I don't know what kind of question this is, but's it's bull, without god we wouldn't have what we climb on, thank him and do what he asks, after all, you've gotten everything you've wanted for over a two thousand years.
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rckfreek
Feb 26, 2003, 7:59 AM
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Well i am a bit suprized that this thread hasn't been ripped on for its topic yet.
However, the first thing that i have to say is that if climbing and sex are more important to anyone than thier love for and devotion to God than according to Luke 18:18-30 (the parable of the rich young ruller) that person can not inherit the kingdom of God.
This is not to say that God has not created sex as a beutiful thing (in a marital context) and that he has not blessed us with the great things on this earth to use for our joy (i.e. Rocks and mountains ect.) But these things should be looked at as exactly that, blessings from God. Paul says in Philippians 3:7 that what ever he has gained on earth (any blessings) he now counts them as rubish (or translation from the greek human crap).
There is a verse somewhere in the new testament that i am not being able to recal a verse referance for that says even Satan will bow at the glory of Christ at the second comming. This glory is so much greater than anything here on earth that there is no reason to even worry about the things of this earth.
- Rock Freek -
Ryan
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rockpossum
Feb 26, 2003, 9:43 AM
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There's an old Canadian comedy team McLean and McLean that do a piece called Jesus was Just a Guy. Sort of sums it up.
I've had a lot of theological training, in spite of this I have come to the conclusion that God couldn't possibly exist as most western religions describe him.
An omnipotent being micro-managing the universe allows (promotes) suffering and ignorance on such a massive scale? This is some sadistic SOB your God. Playing out some childish little game with us to see who loves him the most? Wouldn't even want to have a beer with your God.
Please, nature is God, my dyslexic dog is god, your god I want no part of.
Cheers.
P.S. Bible thumpers please save your vitriol for someone else, your book was translated and edited by a bunch of medieval German scholars and reflects their ideas and prejudices more than Christ's message.
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godsmybelayer
Feb 26, 2003, 10:35 AM
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copperhead, search for a thread called 'faith for the fall', I found that and I think if you read it all the way through you'd be suprised at what other options are out there!!! It's quite lengthy however!!!
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rainer_henfling
Feb 26, 2003, 12:50 PM
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Although I love climbing and and being in nature, I couldn´t see any sense for my life witout God. I think, on this topic, anybody has to find his own way. Mine is the one with God, and he is very, very important for me, but I don´t mind other people not believing in him.
As I said, you´ve to decide on your own.
Rainer.
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theooze
Feb 26, 2003, 12:55 PM
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In reply to: An omnipotent being micro-managing the universe allows (promotes) suffering and ignorance on such a massive scale? This is some sadistic SOB your God. Playing out some childish little game with us to see who loves him the most? Wouldn't even want to have a beer with your God.
Well said. My feelings exactly.
Good trolling today. Can't reel em in fast enough.
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talons05
Feb 26, 2003, 2:37 PM
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Many of you are wielding scriptures as if they are the golden light of truth. However, you must remember that they were written by MEN. "Oh, god told me to write this" Really? God told you to say that Women should serve their husbands? Oh.... And he said that you should put up with whoever is in power, whether good or bad? Hmm... Oh, and GOD's the one who gave you those commandments? Very original, except that they are found in nearly every religion, even those predating yours... Hmm... I'm sorry, but just because you get butterflies in your stomach when you sit en masse with your fellow cultists and pray to your idol doesn't mean it's for real. You can get the same feeling in the movie theater. It's a better show anyway. The christian god is a creation of those in power. This ficticious god has been used by MEN to justify some of the most horrible atrocities in human history. You feel sorry for me? I'm going to hell? Your ignorance makes me sick. Bring on the inquisition.
A.W.
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wishiwaswest
Feb 26, 2003, 2:42 PM
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Well regardless of whether you believe in God or not, and personally I don't care if you do or not, (just don't try and push your FAITH on me), since creatures have been living and dying on this earth for a bazillion years, it's a good chance that some molecules of their physical bodies have been incorporated into every square inch of the land we tread upon and the rocks we climb. You can debate all you want about what happens to a persons soul, even debate whether or not souls exist, there will be no proof until someone actually dies and comes back to tell us all about it....and don't bring Jesus into this....there is no proof he came back...only FAITH in the fact that he did....there is more "proof" of "reincarnation" than there is in "resurrection" (and please note the quotation marks)....but I digress....
When I die, spread my ashes over the land from the mountain tops and let me contribute to the flourishing of future life....just don't step on my toes...OK?
Oh and if hell is climbing and sex....then hell is heaven to me.....
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waggas
Feb 26, 2003, 2:44 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: As for that old “but all this couldn’t have been created by chance†routine…. In a virtually limitless universe, they chances are that virtually everything that’s possible will exist at one point or another…. Where did the virtually limitless universe come from?
If you want to play that game, where did God come from? And who does God believe in? :roll:
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rckfreek
Feb 26, 2003, 4:31 PM
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Well i am anything but a bible thumper, i do however beleive in what it says, and that it is the word of God. I am not going to get into a debate in this troll of a topic as to wether God exists, if you would like to think that you came from a rock and your bro is a chimp that is great. And if you don't beleive in God than why are we even talking about climbing or Heven, with out God there is no heven.
And if you want to say that the bible has no proof and other religions came up with those things first than it simply shows your ignorance to the facts.
I am not by any means going to try to push what i beleive on anyone, but if you are going to say that i am for simply stating my beliefs than you are doing non the better by stating your beliefs.
Climb Hard
- Rock Freek -
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onamission116
Feb 26, 2003, 4:37 PM
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I agree; what kind of heaven wouldn't be nice and hilly and not have sex. :shock:
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climbjs
Feb 26, 2003, 4:38 PM
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(The agnost replies).......
Climbing!!!!! :twisted:
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acrophobic
Feb 26, 2003, 5:00 PM
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Which God and Which Heaven?
What if you follow Shinto or Buddhism?
Are you discriminating against my beliefs??
CLIMBING! :twisted:
Nothing like the threat of damnation to subvert people’s minds! Main reason Japan never has had any large religious wars. There is no guilt or damnation in their Shinto religion like many.
Kinda like the hell is exothermic paper!
“I think we can safely assume that once a soul gets to hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving. As for souls entering hell, let's look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Some of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, then you will go to hell. Since there are more than one of these religions and people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all people and souls go to hell. “
SEE YOU ALL ON THE FIREY CLIFFS! :lol:
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holmeslovesguinness
Feb 26, 2003, 5:02 PM
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The concept of heaven and hell (in almost any religion) seems like a pretty neat and convenient tool for enforcing societal norms on a population. Fear of eternal damnation for the non-believer is also a pretty potent recruiting tool for a religion.
And yeah, come on, who honestly thinks that the bible has been translated verbatim from the original text? If there was only one way to interpret the word of God, why are there so many different 'flavors' (Catholics, Protestants, etc) of Christianity?
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acrophobic
Feb 26, 2003, 5:13 PM
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Well the concept of heaven if a tool of hope. It gives people purpose and some need that. You can’t prove it right or wrong.. so really they have everything to gain. If they are right, the will know they are right. If they are wrong and it doesn’t exist… well they are dead anyway so it wont matter :p
When you have eternal reward for following, contrasted with eternal suffering for not following, it was a pretty powerful converting tool for bringing the pagans “into the fold”.
nowadays though we are exposed to many more religions and ideals.. are are not so quick to follow they things said to be true with no backing!
I FOLLOW ZEUS! The Greek had more documentation and myths on him that X-ians do with the bible... and there is just as much "proof" he exists.
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collegekid
Feb 26, 2003, 5:28 PM
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hail zeus!
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spider-woman
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Feb 26, 2003, 5:30 PM
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We can not "prove" God's existance. If we did, there would be no need for faith, which is the foundation of many religions. As for someone saying that God is just playing a torturious game with our lives, that just goes to show how much we really don't know. How can we even try to comprehend the plan God has for us. He who has infinite wisdom compared to us stupid mortals. We can gain some insight into life with the scriptures, even if they were just written by men.
It is my belief that God just wants us to be happy, hence rock climbing. Many people then say, "Why is there so much unhappiness?" Well, God gave us agency to do whatever we want. Sometimes we use it to make ourselves unhappy and sometimes we make others unhappy. Good thing this life doesn't last forever, so we can (if we're good) experience eternal happiness which in my opinion will include climbing.
Sorry to get all religious, but with nobody here to shut me up, I just couldn't help myself.
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vulgarian
Feb 26, 2003, 5:34 PM
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In reply to: Umm, what if you had to choose? Would it affect your answer if you knew there was no climbing in heaven? Or no sex in heaven? What if you could only climb in hell (technically caving, but still) and could only have sex in hell, even though you are constantly roasting like a christmas goose? And in heaven you have to sit around praising God all day and they don't even allow weed or TV? What would you choose?
To me, the way this question is structured, I have two very clear ways to answer. I can be a free thinking individual of free will to seek my spirtuality as it is meaningful to me. Or I can be a mindless idiot and "sit around praising God (the great Ego) all day.
I choose hell.
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collegekid
Feb 26, 2003, 5:35 PM
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social engineering...that's all religion is. Designed to control the masses.
I suppose religion eases the pain of being effemeral, by promising eternity. Too bad i can't get over all the war and crap that religion has caused, otherwise i might support religion.
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collegekid
Feb 26, 2003, 5:43 PM
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just posting to show off my new signature
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vulgarian
Feb 26, 2003, 5:44 PM
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My signature is supposed to read-
"The meme for blind faith secures its own perpetuation by the simple unconscious expediant of discouraging rational inquiry" - Richard Dawkins
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copperhead
Feb 26, 2003, 6:54 PM
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In reply to: It is pointless to argue about god. If you are truly intelligent, you will realize arguing against true believers is impossible.
I don’t expect to change peoples’ minds. I’m just presenting my opinions.
In reply to: I don't know what kind of question this is, but's it's bull, without god we wouldn't have what we climb on, thank him and do what he asks, after all, you've gotten everything you've wanted for over a two thousand years.
Please correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t the Bible say that the Earth was created on October 26, 4004 BC, at 9 am? Please tell me how such a feat is possible in such a short amount of time, considering scientific evidence has proven the Earth to be approximately 4.6 billion years old. I don’t disagree that Jesus existed; but he was just another dude like you and me who liked to spray a lot. He might have even had a few good things to say, if you were a mere peasant. The idea that a human being died and was later brought back to life by some magical forces is about the most stupid and ridiculous idea I can think of. So if Jesus is God and showed up about 2000 years ago, does it mean that there wasn’t a God before that? How was the Earth created 4000 years before if God didn’t exist yet? Please don’t tell me that God created this Earth; that’s a lame excuse for a lack of understanding of the physical world around you.
Godsmack Belayer,
I did a search but couldn't find it but I'm probably too lazy to read it anyway; and like colledgekid said, you ain’t gonna change my mind…
In reply to: …if you would like to think that you came from a rock and your bro is a chimp that is great.
And you don’t believe this? Scientific evidence supports evolution and your evidence is out of some stupid book that was written a long time ago by a bunch of braindead peasants.
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tanner
Feb 26, 2003, 6:57 PM
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This entire tread is about faith(beliving in somthing we can't see or prove)
Some people have faith in God
other people have faith that there is no God.
One guy even has faith that his dog is God
-Oh, look we are all the same. We all belive in somthing we can't prove.
Lets just say you belive there is no God- IF your right you die
- Wrong your going to hell
Other side
You belive in God- if your right, you climbing the Golden Gates with God
If your wrong- You Die
If I was a gambling man, what would I pick Hmmm.....
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swohletz
Feb 26, 2003, 6:58 PM
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rockpossum In reply to: "An omnipotent being micro-managing the universe allows (promotes) suffering and ignorance on such a massive scale? This is some sadistic SOB your God. Playing out some childish little game with us to see who loves him the most? Wouldn't even want to have a beer with your God. "
I'm sorry you feel this way. The God I know is nothing like that. It makes me sad to think you've been led to believe
that God is that way. What you believe is up to you but I encourage you to seek truth, wherever that leads you. The Bible says that if you seek truth you will find it. I can't convince you. Only God can do that.
climb on
susan
edited so it doesn't look like one big quote.
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acrophobic
Feb 26, 2003, 7:10 PM
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Tanner, how do you know you picked the right one though out of the Dozens of choices we have? Big gamble to live by rules and such. You should follow out of wanting to, not out of fear that you might be wrong.
Heh, whenever I wear my "Evolution Fish" T-Shirt I always get someone come up to me and say "So you beleive we all came from apes? That's silly!"
I just reply with "You think man was formed out of dirt by some omnipotent being don't you? And that Women was formed out of a Mans rib? Hmmm.. which is more silly?"
They would criticize all our evidence and fossil findings, but will not offer up any themselves.
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pywiak
Feb 26, 2003, 7:12 PM
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I choose God (or is it the other way around?). This is a no-brainer question - you get to read a lot of answers from people with no brains. If God has not revealed himself to you - bummer. Pray that He does and He will. If you cannot comprehend the reality of Satan - you are senseless. There is a war going on, and you must pick a side. If you are going to fight, you will be equipped. If you are not, you will be tormented and slaughtered. Enjoy the crags as a gift from your Creator, seek His face, and praise His name as you crank.
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acrophobic
Feb 26, 2003, 7:17 PM
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pywiak, I'm sure many Muslim, Buddhists, Zoaists, Agnostics, Shinto’s, etc. would be quite surprised that they are following an evil being that does not exist in their peaceful lives and beliefs.
how ignorant of them. :roll:
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tanner
Feb 26, 2003, 7:19 PM
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I don't belive In God out of fear or because its a good gamble.
I just think it was an interesting way to look at things. seeing how both sides can't prove a thing to each other.
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acrophobic
Feb 26, 2003, 7:24 PM
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Well actually Evolution has a HEAPLOAD of proof, hell even that PAST 4 POPES have acknowledged evolution. It only has no evidence to those who wish to ignore it.
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pywiak
Feb 26, 2003, 7:24 PM
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Acrophobic wrote:
"I'm sure many Muslim, Buddhists, Zoaists, Agnostics, Shinto’s, etc. would be quite surprised that they are following an evil being that does not exist in their peaceful lives and beliefs."
Sad, but true...Hell is full of "nice" people. Why do you think Satan is called the "Father of Lies"?
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yeti
Feb 26, 2003, 7:25 PM
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For Pete's sake! I thought this post was intended as a joke. I can't believe everyone is taking this so seriously. I'm on John Lennon's side... How about making our planet a better place to live?
yt
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copperhead
Feb 26, 2003, 7:26 PM
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Some of you have been watching too many Sunday morning cartoons!
Religion = downfall of society.
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acrophobic
Feb 26, 2003, 7:30 PM
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:shock:
really now? And how do you know it is not YOU that are in the wrong? There are religions that predate yours, there are ARK stories in pre Xian religions that the bible copies almost word for word. Do some research.
Others have just as much documentation as yours. Blind Faith is such a waste of a mind. Ignorance is bliss I guess for some.
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tanner
Feb 26, 2003, 7:30 PM
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There would be no Ice climbing in hell.
That I know for a fact
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yeti
Feb 26, 2003, 7:32 PM
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Good one tanner! :lol:
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acrophobic
Feb 26, 2003, 7:38 PM
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ahhh don't like ice.
I always say "the day I ice climb is the day hell freezes over"
so at least I'll be there if it ever does eh? :wink:
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flying_dutchman
Feb 26, 2003, 7:42 PM
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God gave man free will and suffering emerged because of us. As for evolution, I did not evolve over billions of years from monkeys but thats just my opinion. Before evolution began, what was there? God has always been.
and for those of you who do not believe that there is a God,
"You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that - and shudder." James 2:16
make a choice, live with it and i will not judge you... but i live and climb better knowing that when i die, i will go to heaven, according to my beliefs.
Many religions say this and some may be right while others may not be but at least i believe in somthing and do not fear what follows death.
one day we will find out the truth
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acrophobic
Feb 26, 2003, 7:51 PM
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When you can't dazzle them with dexterity.... PREPARE! I WILL END IT NOW BY POSTING SOMETHING NO ONE WILL READ!
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. What is me reasoning behind this? Proof and logical thinking.
A theory ties things together. It explains and predicts. Why are our feet and our back muscles poorly designed for walking? Why are we afflicted by lethal viruses? Why have so many females died in childbirth? The Theory I am talking about is Evolution. A biblical explanation does not explain and predict the millions of questions that have risen about our planet. The Bible offers one set, unchanging view with no good evidence other that explaining itself to be right (circular reasoning). This is the main reason how religion and science do not mesh to well. Time and time again the church has been proven wrong and has been forced to step back. Flat world beliefs, Earth as the center of the universe, there are even people today who do not believe dinosaurs existed. These are all beliefs, not theory. A theory needs backing though evidence and repeated testing to label it so. The definition of a scientific theory is: “A well substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses.” (1) You cannot repeatedly test the Bible, or any other religious source, because it has nothing to test it against. It is it’s own evidence of itself… to question its validity would be to throw its whole standing into disarray. The bible is proof of itself, questioning it is admitting it has flaws, thus can be wrong. Fortunately we can question science endlessly, as it is ever growing and evolving. I plan to show you just what these questions can reveal to you.
Just how was the bible formed and how accurate can we make it out to be? Well the earliest complete version of the New Testament is the Codex Sinaiticus, which originates around the 4th century and was written in Greek. Fragments of gospels have been found that date to the 2nd century (all have been confirmed with carbon dating), however the language these were written in presents a problem. It was said that Jesus spoke Aramaic and most of his apostles were uneducated and illiterate. So the surviving texts that the New Testament of today is based upon are not even in Jesus’ native tongue, yet alone his original words. There is a few hundred years gap of knowledge between his life and the earliest known writings. Due to the very limited amount of people able to write in those days, it is very possible that the texts would undergo drastic evolution through centuries of handwritten duplication. The actual formation of the book you see today is even more construed. “The rest of the canon was much slower to develop. For the next two centuries, the four gospels would be coupled with a myriad of different letters, epistles, stories and apocalypses, according to what a particular congregation judged as relevant to their understanding of Jesus Christ and his message. Catholicism was only one of the dozens of "denominations" within the early church—Gnosticism was prevalent throughout Egypt, Montanism in Asia Minor, Marcionism in Syria. Eventually, the Catholic church was adopted as the state religion of the Roman Empire, and all other systems of belief were branded as heresies. Following the Epistle of Athanasius in 367 C.E., the Church finally reached agreement upon which writings were truly authentic and representative of apostolic tradition, thus forming what we know today as the canonical New Testament. Although factions of the Church continued to debate the merits of various books for centuries, and many even used other writings in their liturgy, most uncanonical writings were ordered to be destroyed. In many cases, possession of heretical literature was punishable by death.” (2). In actual fact there are about 4 complete gospels (James and Thomas) that date from the second century which are completely ignored. (2.5)
Next is the ever-controversial Old world vs. Young world arguments. There are some that truly believe that the world is no more that 6,000 years old by going through the family lines and years lived in the old testament from Adam and Eve. This is nothing but preposterous. Others give the “what is a day, what is a year?” argument. The words “day” and “year” are said to be relative. Though it can be contended that the same word for “day” and “year” are used later on in the old and new testament and are accepted at face value without question (eg: Days of the flood, Ages of various people, travel times). Why wasn’t the correct amount of time that had passed used? Is it meant to be symbolic? Is there any backing for this thought process? I can say the whole of the old testament is symbolic. According to the bible, men built cities and mastered agriculture as soon as they were cast out from the Garden. However we have not found any evidence of this. The bible however shows a clearly advanced culture, not seen beginning in history until roughly 10,000 years ago. Can we explain this away with symbolism as well? We are playing a guessing game with this symbolism, and I’m not really interested in doing it. The metaphoric argument has no solid footing.. only assumptions with little backing. The argument was made to me recently that, it [Genesis] can be taken as metaphoric in which case many of the references in Genesis need to be inspected from this viewpoint. I’m wondering where source is that says most of genesis is to be taken metaphorically. Couldn’t we also say that Adam creation from “dust” is metaphoric for evolution? All the earth started out as was rock and dust. Couldn’t we also say that the fruit represents man’s control over fire? Couldn’t we also say, Eve’s downfall was added due to a culture that viewed women as inferior? What does the metaphoric analogies stop, and how can you pick and choose what is, and isn’t to be taken metaphorically? The creation record is pretty specific, are you saying that’s metaphoric as well? Why only genesis? Why would god be so careful in passing down specific information (since he would be the only one who knew what happened), only for it to be taken metaphorically? Why would be tell satan he would be eating dirt and be under all cattle? Satan seems pretty powerful. I see no reference in the Bible that it should be taken metaphorically, and whoever wrote is, is long dead. When all is said and done, some Christians think it is literal, some say it is figurative. This differing in opinion is why Bible based religion has so many different belief systems, some of which varying widely from one to the other. Most of this can be read about on the following website. (http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mbible1.html)
Before I continue to fossil evidence, I would like to address carbon dating and half-life dating. Many of those from the religious standing question this methods accuracy. “The best-known absolute dating technique is carbon-14 dating, which archaeologists prefer to use. However, the half-life of carbon-14 is only 5730 years, so the method cannot be used for materials older than about 70,000 years. Radiometric dating involves the use of isotope series, such as rubidium/strontium, thorium/lead, potassium/argon, argon/argon, or uranium/lead, all of which have very long half-lives, ranging from 0.7 to 48.6 billion years. Subtle differences in the relative proportions of the two isotopes can give good dates for rocks of any age.” (3) Carbon and radiometric dating is very accurate and has yet to be shown as inaccurate in any substantial way. Christian scientists recently carbon dated the Shroud of Turin, and regretfully conceded that it was not old enough to live up to its claims. To dismiss this form of dating to be accurate would be to dismiss the entire known human history timeline, as it has completely been built on this method. This type of dating has even been confirmed in it’s accuracy buy accurately dating Egyptian mummies with the inscriptions in their tomb (to name one of many, including using the Dead Sea Scrolls, Antarctic Ice Layers and Tree Rings). If you would disagree with this form of dating, I would like to hear your reasons and founded evidence to support your reasoning. Yes no system is perfect and even this dating method has flaws, but there has been no evidence to dissuade almost all of the scientists on this planet from using it confidently.
Now that the method of dating has been adequately defended, let us move onto Fossils. An excellent pictorial can be found at the site : http://www.theistic-evolution.com/transitional.html . Also recently a skull has been found that could be part of the human chain in the 6 million year old gap period, quite an exciting find (4). At the first website you will find both Secular and Theological explanations. You will notice that the Theological side doesn’t really explain anything. The author instead uses a lot of “what ifs” and an assumption into drawing what he thinks is right. The author starts preaching from the bible on what it tells you to think. That isn’t taking facts into account, it is catering to the circular argument. The oldest “modern” human fossil (skulls that closely resemble us) is about 100,000 years, and the tools they used were primitive… flint and stone. We as a species (Homo Sapiens), have only existed for about 100,000 years as far as our findings have shown us. That is a fraction of a fraction of a blink of an eye in Earths living history. According to Stephen Hawking (a pretty smart guy I'd say) if you look at the time since the earth's creation (about 4.5 billion years ago) to today as a year, humans start at about Dec. 31, 11:59:30 PM. recorded history (about 6,000 years ago) starts at 11:59:59 PM. Not a whole lot of time. Piecing our history together before this brief 6,000 years is a time consuming and difficult process. Creationists are ready to easily attack the holes Evolutionist have in their argument. What they don’t take into fact is that we have only bee actively looking for fossils for a meager few hundred years at most (and only seriously for half that time). Time will reveal all secrets. Major discoveries spring up every year; even archeologists in a well-established site like Egypt are still finding new discoveries. Finding fossils that date back to 1.5 million years such as the Homo Erectus, is a very daunting task… but it will be done with more and more frequency. The Bible does not address these facts at all. According to creation myths Humans were formed as Homo Sapiens and underwent no evolutionary process. The Homo Neanderthalensis existed before and overlaps in existence with Homo Sapiens. The fully developed Neanderthal has been dated from 200,000 years to 60,000 years ago. This species is the first and only in the line that can match Humans for brain capacity. They were certainly not animals and were capable of reason and controlling advanced tools and fire. Fossil records and on-site tool discoveries have proved this beyond a doubt. Where do these sub-humans (so to speak) that overlap with the modern human timeline fit into the creationism story?
I would like to wrap up with a quote from one of the greatest thinkers in history. When Einstein was asked about his religious views, he responded with the following; “"From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and have always been an atheist.... I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our being."”
Although not a favorite of physicists, Einstein, The Life and Times, by the professional biographer Ronald W. Clark (1971), contains one of the best summaries on Einstein's God: "However, Einstein's God was not the God of most men. When he wrote of religion, as he often did in middle and later life, he tended to...clothe with different names what to many ordinary mortals--and to most Jewsa--looked like a variant of simple agnosticism...This was belief enough. It grew early and rooted deep. Only later was it dignified by the title of cosmic religion, a phrase which gave plausible respectability to the views of a man who did not believe in a life after death and who felt that if virtue paid off in the earthly one, then this was the result of cause and effect rather than celestial reward. Einstein's God thus stood for an orderly system obeying rules which could be discovered by those who had the courage, the imagination, and the persistence to go on searching for them"
If there is a god, he gave me this brain for a reason. Diversity should be embraced, not shunned. I recognize what religion gives people who need it, but there are a vast number of people who do not need it. Life is wonderful, live it for yourself… not for the fear of a presumption what could happen after you die. There is one sure thing of what happens after someone dies and one alone: decomposition. Everything else are just guesses. If those guesses fill you with joy then follow them, just come to understand that people can live just as fulfilling and joy-filled lives without it as you can with it. The proof to evolution is there, you just have to look for it. I welcome any debate on this.. always looking to expand my mind. I do not intend to insult or injure, but to provoke thinking and intelligent debate.
Bibliography
1. http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000D4FEC-7D5B-1D07-8E49809EC588EEDF&pageNumber=1&catID=2
2. http://www.maplenet.net/~trowbridge/NT_Hist.htm
3. http://www.actionbioscience.org/evolution/benton.html
4. http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/07/10/ancient.skull/index.html?related
2.5. http://www.bradenton.com/mld/bradentonherald/news/local/3699456.htm
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rockpossum
Feb 26, 2003, 7:52 PM
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God...
An invisible man that lives in the sky, if you don't obey his rules you will burn with eternal torment in Hell... but he loves you. Oh and he needs money, he's really bad with money.
Hmmm... Christians how about focusing on Christ's example and leave the crazy cosmic threats out of the argument. Or do you prefer to rif on the power trip?
There's climbing in hell alright, I've seen it, go to any indoor gym during a kids birthday party.
ciao,
P.S. Apologies to the prophet George Carlin.
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holmeslovesguinness
Feb 26, 2003, 8:03 PM
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make a choice, live with it and i will not judge you..
If everyone truly had your attitude the world would be a much, much better place. But we all know that religious intolerance is a fact of life in much of the world.
Many religions say this and some may be right while others may not be but at least i believe in somthing and do not fear what follows death.
Believing in nothing is actually believing in something :wink:
Fear of what lies beyond death seems to be a primary motivation for people to 'discover' religion or to toe the line for a particular belief system. I wonder how many people who profess to love God do so because they truly love Him or because they simply fear the consequences of being a non-believer?
Why would God send someone to hell simply because they don't believe in him, or worship him in some prescribed fashion? If someone is a 'good' person and generally lives by the basic Christian tenants, why punish them?
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climb4life
Feb 26, 2003, 8:27 PM
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hey there....
i am going to keep this nice and simple
i don't beleive in god
i love rock climbing
i live for rock climbing
i love sex
i enjoy the feeling of sex
simple so far?
if i have to choose, i don't choose
cause i don't believe in god
no heaven nor hell
so far, i think this is simple
short life means i gotta make the most of it
give me rocks and girls
and i will die a happy man
climb on
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copperhead
Feb 26, 2003, 8:30 PM
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Andrew (acrophobic),
THAT WAS TOTALLY AWESOME!!! GOOD WORK!!!
Nice bit about radiometric dating. Because of this, I can say that based on Uranium/Lead dating methods on zircon crystals, the rock that makes up El Cap is ~104 million years old and the rock that makes up Half Dome is ~90 million years old.
Great Einstein quote!
The rest of you are free to think as you like, but I might think less of you because of it. Yes, intolerance.
Religion is a crutch for the weak-minded.
See you in Hell.
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wishiwaswest
Feb 26, 2003, 8:34 PM
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Holy Crow! acrophobic....and I actually read that....I've said before, I don't care what anyone believes...what bugs me is people trying to convince me that their beliefs are based on FACT, not FAITH....that includes those who believe and those who don't believe.
The earth is round = FACT
There is a God = FAITH
There is not a God = FAITH or lack thereof
There are no facts or proof to substantiate either side of the coin. If you want to express your beliefs, great...but don't try to use "facts" to rationalize your faith or lack of it. Are we so insecure in our beliefs that we need to try and "prove" them? Why? What do you care what so and so thinks? It's only what YOU believe that is important. This need to prove that we are RIGHT, is what causes all the conflict, not our beliefs.
I was alpine climbing one day and suddenly my gut started churning and I broke out in a sweat and everything in my being was screaming turn back. So I did. I've learned to trust my gut. Was that God? Maybe. Was it just a fundamental instinct? Maybe. What would have happened if I had gone on? I don't know, but I believed that if I did continue, I would have been in serious trouble. I still believe that. My partners went ahead and nothing happened. How do I prove that something would have happened if I had gone on? I can't, but I'll swear up and down I made the right decision and would do it again...no facts, no proof, just faith in my gut.
Have faith in God or don't, but don't use "facts" to try and prove your point of view....it indicates an insecurity in your faith and a need to convince yourself, not others.
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acrophobic
Feb 26, 2003, 8:49 PM
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wow people read that? :o I actually wrote that a year ago after i had a debate with an online poster. Might fill it out a bit more when i get the chance.
I'm not really using facts to try and disproove the existance of god. I'm using fact to support my belief that there might not be a god. How can you tell me not to use facts if i follow science? That's like me telling you not to use the bible if you follow X-ianity. It dosn't make sense :P
science is fact based
religon is faith based
Science can use facts to support thier claim.. it might not prove that god does not exist, but it does prove that the bible's creation stories do not fit in within earths timeline as our methods have show us.
personally I still think the “original plan” of God's in the Eden story was flawed from the start, and it boggles my mind that this Being wouldn’t foresee what would happen. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to tell you that curiosity would of won. He might as well of peeled and sliced the apple into easily chewable slices himself.
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pattray
Feb 26, 2003, 8:55 PM
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Great reading Andrew (acrophobic), I got through all of it, what a good answer.
Hey OOZE, You caught a real big fish there. :lol:
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rainer_henfling
Feb 26, 2003, 8:57 PM
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Hey people,
I´m pretty sure you all know Tomaz Humar. And what is the motivation, the spirit, which leads him to his great adventures?! I´d say, it was GOD, and no one else, wasn´t he?
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wv5ten
Feb 26, 2003, 8:58 PM
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Good points from both sides
I have to say that I'm a devout christian. So I would pick heaven.
but as for no sex...read the book, Song Of Soloman. I remember once, we showed a video of a study of the book, and some guys in the frat turned the book over to see if they were still reading the bible. So if I'm right, and there is a heaven, there will no doubt be sex. No worries there.
If you care as to why I believe in God and Jesus, feel free to PM me, if you want to know more about when i was athiest, and/or buddhist. PM me. if you want to know why I converted PM me. If you just want to hang out and talk, or meet up and climb. PM me. :P
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holmeslovesguinness
Feb 26, 2003, 8:59 PM
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Acrophobia - great job there dude, that was an interesting read.
He might as well of peeled and sliced the apple into easily chewable slices himself.
LOL! Try our new "Bite Sized Forbidden Fruit™". All the sin and only half the size!
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acrophobic
Feb 26, 2003, 9:02 PM
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In reply to: Try our new "Bite Sized Forbidden Fruit™". All the sin and only half the size!
I think you just gave me my new .sig!!!! :lol:
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wishiwaswest
Feb 26, 2003, 9:20 PM
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Acrophobic, that wasn't a criticism of your post. You reflected very much my thoughts and I see what you're saying, but I don't believe you can use either the bible or science to support ones belief/disbelief in a God either way. I tend to believe in science as well, but science tends to prove the "hows" and the belief in God tends to supply an understanding of the "why". I guess I am looking at it as the belief in a spiritual being period. Not whether the world was created 4000 years ago or whether dinosaurs ever existed or whether we descended from apes or not. Science can prove/disprove all those things, but how can it prove the existence or non-existence of God, which is a concept outside the realm of the concrete as we know it? We still have not scientifically proved/disproved the existence of ghosts/spirits. That is not to say that someday it won't be proven, but at this point we can't. So I think science can be used to argue the tangible facts that many believers in God use to prove their points, but not the basic concept of a God. Am I making any sense???? I think I've confused myself..... :?
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acrophobic
Feb 26, 2003, 9:37 PM
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yep I follow ya! Science will never solve the answer to "life the universe... everything" *coughcough42cough*.
Some people need to have a reason.. some like to just “be”. I exist because I exist.. not because some being has a ultimate plan for me. Contrary to my posts I am a very SPIRITUAL person… not religious. Most people do not know the difference between spiritual and religious. Most Japanese say they are not religious, yet they pray at Shinto shrines daily and make offerings. They are spiritual.
Modernized and corporate religions are not very spiritual anymore. I’m using Shinto as a contrasting example. There is no leader of the Shinto religious. There is no central god figure or “rules” or guilt. It consists of multiple deities and a bonding to nature. Forests, Oceans, Sand, Rice…. They exist in harmony and believe in spirits, yet they are not religious and are proud to say so. Shinto does not push to convert, damn, bribe or dictate you into following it.
Yet I am agnostic and spiritual. Diversity! I don’t need a book to tell me what I have to be in order to be spiritual…. I’ll leave that to religion.
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weaselman
Feb 26, 2003, 10:21 PM
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in church the other day, we talked about worldy pleasures (such as sex and climbing) being pale in comparison to the light of heaven and God. so... is there really a choice?
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wishiwaswest
Feb 26, 2003, 10:30 PM
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Sigh...just another victim of "the salmon of doubt".
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rckfreek
Feb 27, 2003, 12:02 AM
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Well like i said in a previous post, i am not about to debate the question of if there is a God or not in a thread like this. I do believe in God, not by blind faith, but a faith that has been substantiated. This faith has come through reading,
studying, listening, and something that is tougher to debate, personal experience.
I am aware that some one will say that where i have seen God in my life (more exactly the Holy Spirit) is silly and i am ignorantly convincing myself of Gods hand in certain areas. However, i am the one that has seen/witnessed His hand in my life, and you can not argue personal experience.
There are so many different debates going here that it is crazy, but i did notice someone's posting that the Bible gives a specific date as to the creation of the world. This is not true, it does not give a specific date. As nice as that would be, however i do believe that the world is no more than lets say 10,000 - 20,000 years old. This is an area that i have not researched to much so take that as you want. But as for the undeniable scientific research that says the world is millions or billions of years old, look at all of the research. There was a study done after the Mt. St. Helens blew. The scientific dating method was used on the bran new layer of magma formed there. The research came out that that bran new ground was millions of years old.
As "bible pounding agnostic fanatic" (as some here have said) this is my last post. If you would like to put me down or question me on anything please feel free to send me a PM.
Lets all get away from our computers and go CLIMB HARD
- Rock Freek - Ryan
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flying_dutchman
Feb 27, 2003, 12:16 AM
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nobody else wants to go to heaven? guess i'll have to take up bouldering or free solo'ing.
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drector
Feb 27, 2003, 12:26 AM
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Being an athiest, I don't understand the question.
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wishiwaswest
Feb 27, 2003, 12:34 AM
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In reply to: But as for the undeniable scientific research that says the world is millions or billions of years old, look at all of the research. There was a study done after the Mt. St. Helens blew. The scientific dating method was used on the bran new layer of magma formed there. The research came out that that bran new ground was millions of years old.
Tried to hold back....but....I CAN'T...Of course the new ground was millions of years old...if not billions....it came from the inner earth...ie magma...ie molten rock from the mantle...which IS millions/billions of years old....all it did was come to the surface through volcanic activity....the regurgitation of subducted crust....or is Plate Tectonics/Geology also a myth......like the age of the dinosaurs....
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rockpossum
Feb 27, 2003, 12:45 AM
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Lets stop splitting hairs and get down to the real proof...
If I were Satan (and I’m not) I would take the greatest pleasure in subverting the life’s work of Jesus Christ. Create a vile self righteous, judgmental, self interested and vindictive organization that perpetuates strife, greed, intolerance, ignorance, famine, racism, poverty and war. Turn Christ into some kind of spiritual ass kicker so his message gets lost completely. Then name the organization after him.
I would insure that brutal, violence prone thugs headed major world governments and that they cloak themselves in righteous patriotism, directly or indirectly attributing their success to faith in Jesus Christ. And I would laugh my ass off when people who should know better side with this viciousness on faith alone and don’t bother trying to analyze what is really going on.
If Jesus Christ returns any time soon the first thing he should do is hire a good lawyer and sue Christianity for defamation of character.
Good luck with that,
RP
P.S. of course there is climbing in heaven, Christ seems to be belaying half this thread.
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clymber
Feb 27, 2003, 12:52 AM
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since i dont belive in heaven or hell god or the devil i would have to chose climbing...for all we know the bible is the best selling fiction book ever written and the author is pissed cuz hes not getting paid as much as he is supposed to
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cerberus
Feb 27, 2003, 1:21 AM
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Hell is a place with 90+ degree weather and no chalk......
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theooze
Feb 27, 2003, 1:22 AM
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Tha's right, clymer my friend.
Let me tell you gawdfeerin braindead fruits something else.
Why does everyone live in slavery? Even here in the wunnerful USA, we gotta work our tails off our whole lives. If you live in Somalia, Bangladesh or N. Korea, or whatever, your family starves to death and you can't do nothing about it. If you live in the mideast, you screw camels and make your wife wipe your butt.
Why? Because of religion.
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pusherem
Feb 27, 2003, 1:41 AM
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God no doubt. Eternity is a long time to spend in hell.
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arlen
Feb 27, 2003, 5:31 AM
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My idea of hell is trying to climb with a bunch of youth pastor groupies trying to share their faith with me.
8)
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coldclimb
Feb 27, 2003, 7:03 AM
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The thing is guys, it's hell. Hell is hell. The worst you can imagine and more. So obviously, there will be no climbing there. :D :lol:
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collegekid
Feb 27, 2003, 7:30 AM
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Ok, waaaaaaaaayyyyy back there, someone said something to the effect of "at least i KNOW that after i die, i'm not going to hell."
Why does there have to be an afterlife? Why must it be good or bad? Can it be neutral, like everything else in the universe? Why must you fear death AT ALL? I do not fear death, i fear the end of life. I fear leaving this world without finishing what i had wanted to do. I fear leaving the people i know, and i fear them missing me.
It is very naive, and immature, to believe that everything continues on forever. Sure, once you die, your body will join the rest of the decomposing organic matter on the earth's crust, so technically you never really go anywhere. You're just not functioning anymore. Why does some spirit of yours need to exist beyond the grave?
-----
In order to answer the original question, i'm going to assume there is an afterlife.
----
I choose god. Sure, climbing is fun, and i'm thoroughly addicted to it, but i'd get over it soon enough. Ultimate goodness far outweighs climbing.
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camhead
Feb 27, 2003, 7:40 AM
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wow. I just wasted how much time reading this thread?
anyway, one thing:
the most confident and strongest person out there is the atheist free soloist.
think about that one for a bit.
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spider-woman
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Feb 27, 2003, 8:41 PM
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I think the whole science vs. God argument is weak. God is the ultimate scientist. He does have infinite wisdom afterall. People who get caught up in the so called "conflicts" between science and religion are people who think we're smarter than we really are. Yes, we know a lot of things I would consider true (both scientific and religious), but we are missing all the inbetweens.
Imagine every piece of truth is a piece of a puzzle (evidence for evolution, scriptures, whatever). If somebody gave you only a few pieces of the puzzle would you deny the fact that they were puzzle pieces because they didn't all fit together? Well, that is what many of you are doing. Both theist and atheist. You are denying the pieces of truth we do have. Don't say that scientific principles are false for the sake of religion and don't say religious principles are false for the sake of science. God knows everything. We don't.
I also don't believe that people should except things blindly (blind faith). They should study them and see the alternatives before believing what they do.
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godismyrock7
Feb 27, 2003, 10:09 PM
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Definently God, but only God knows where we'll spend eternity. Once you get up there for judgement theres no way to go back and try to fix the things you messed up. I'd have to say, if it's going to be heaven then there better be rockclimbing. Heaven is the perfect place. Heaven has to be perfect for everyone. If you think of all the bad things in the world really suck its soooo much worse in hell. What i don't like is other chistians pressuring people to accept Christ. It's your own decision that will affect you for eternity. Heaven or Hell. Jesus is the only way.
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