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overlord
May 7, 2003, 6:57 AM
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on saturday i went climbing with some friends. i decided to climb thet 6b+ that keeps on spitting me off. so i go for it and im looking strong until my foot slips and i fall. its a face climb (which im not particulary good at) and i gring my teeth in anticipations of a sharp tug on the rope as the grigri grips and i a thrown into the wall and scrathed till im all bloody...
but the tug never came... i just kept on falling... and i land on a flat surface just beside a 20kg rock on my butt. i decked about 5m and survived...
what happened the belayer gripped the leading end of the rope not the dead end so there was never enoug traction for the grigri to shut. he actually lovered me by hand. the landing was quite soft and the fall took about 2seconds. and you should see his ropeburn :P
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asaph
May 7, 2003, 7:01 AM
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all the horror stories about gri gri's and still people exclaim them as the safest thing around. I wouldn't trust them (because of the laziness they encourage) or your belayer.
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overlord
May 7, 2003, 7:06 AM
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yes, thats the bad side of grigri. but i still like it. the belayer was using for the first time, but he was experienced. he just acted in acoordance with previos training (btw, with grigri hes braking hand changed, why cant they make a reversed grigri, because it took me while to get used to braking with other hand). but new belayers should be kept off grigris for quite some time because it DOES promote lazyness.
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punk
May 7, 2003, 8:58 AM
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You have serious lack of info here…
How many pieces of pro and the distance bt’ them?
How much rope was bt’ you two?
How fast did u fall (slow mo, or right in to the air)?
What the belayer did and where he was situated?
:?
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overlord
May 7, 2003, 9:38 AM
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ok...
2 draws about 1.5m apart, the highest at about 3m, i was going to clip the 3rd at about 5m
about 4m of rope
it was slomo (when i was falling, i fell because my foot slipped and i let go of the hold (i was going to clip) rather than risk tendon injury).
the belayer was at the foor of the route, a little to the right. he gripped the leading end of the rope and so there wasn enough friction for grigri to operate (eg lock). he got serious ropeburn (dooh). he actually lovered me by creating friction by gripping the rope. the rope was beal 10.5mm 60m dry. oh, i weight about 68kg.
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mrhardgrit
May 7, 2003, 10:51 AM
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I can't believe people call this the fault of a grigri! If he had been holding the lead end of any belay plate on the market, almost exactly the same would have happened! It was completely human error - nothing to do with the mechanics of the grigri.
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ljthawk
May 7, 2003, 11:19 AM
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In reply to: I can't believe people call this the fault of a grigri! If he had been holding the lead end of any belay plate on the market, almost exactly the same would have happened! It was completely human error - nothing to do with the mechanics of the grigri.
I believe the point was not that it was the Gri Gri's fault, but the Gri Gri gives many a false since of security, thinking they don't have to hold onto the brake line. Where as it is well known that when using traditional belay devices you must, no questions asked, hold the brake line. In other words, the Gri Gri's false since of security can add to bad belaying habits and improper use. Of course when used properly, like any other belay device on the market, it is safe as long as dynamic belays are not required.
L.J.
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redpoint73
May 7, 2003, 11:31 AM
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mrhardgrit,
If he was using another type of device, and used it properly, his hand should have never left the brake end of the rope in the first place. It seems that the belayer was throwing out slack, then grabbed the wrong part of the rope when he saw the climber start to fall. This is a good example of how a Grigri is not as fail-safe as a lot of climbers seem to think.
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socalclimber
May 7, 2003, 1:19 PM
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All of this BS about GriGri's being unsafe is just blind ignorance. There is no such thing as an unsafe, commercial belay device that has been through all the testing. The concept of the belay being safe has nothing to do with the device, and everything to do with the belayer. Period. GriGri's do not teach people to be lazy. People teach people to be lazy. The GriGri is a solid fine device when used by a skilled and experianced belayer.
People need to wake up and stop blaming their gear for accidents and start looking at themselves and their partners! Take some responsibility.
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gogunks
May 7, 2003, 1:21 PM
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In reply to: the belayer was using for the first time, but he was experienced.
Frankly, this comment illustrates the complete lack of safety consciousness among many new climbers. Clearly, "experience" means nothing if the said experience does not translate into competence. You are fortunate to be alive.
To quote Accidents in North American Mountaineering 2002: "Belaying is a fundemental climbing skill that is learned and perfected over a period of time. It is not a skill that can be taught (or should be taught) in a few minutes prior to beginning a rock climb."
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trbrts
May 7, 2003, 1:21 PM
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[quote="asaph"]all the horror stories about gri gri's and still people exclaim them as the safest thing aroundIn reply to: Gri Gri's aren't idiot proof. You should make sure the guy knows how to use the damn thing before you leave the ground.
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socalclimber
May 7, 2003, 1:26 PM
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In reply to: To quote Accidents in North American Mountaineering 2002: "Belaying is a fundemental climbing skill that is learned and perfected over a period of time. It is not a skill that can be taught (or should be taught) in a few minutes prior to beginning a rock climb."
Isn't this the truth. I NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, climb with newbies belaying me without a backup belayer. It's amazing how many people don't even know what this is, or how to do it.
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tim
May 7, 2003, 1:29 PM
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This much is very true.
I've had people who I met in the parking lot day-of catch upsidedown 20' swinging aid falls that I took when a fixed piece popped. The belayer in question was nodding off when it happened; I would have decked head first if he'd been using an ATC.
I had a partner (friend of mine, not a serious climber) catch another big aid fall, a 35' whipper with three popped pins, on an ATC. Again, no worries.
I've seen some belays with Gri Gri's that scare the shit out of me. That's not the fault of the device -- make something foolproof, and without fail, a better fool will come along to prove you wrong. But, the Gri Gri is a godsend for tedious aid belays and holding people while they work sport routes. It is not foolproof and it is not free of shortcomings, but calling it "unsafe" is misinformed.
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punk
May 7, 2003, 1:31 PM
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I think u got your answer…hopefully you would learn from this unbelievably lucky accident… I wont trust my luck to shine on me twice ;)
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kyhangdog
May 7, 2003, 1:36 PM
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Same thing happened to me with an inexperienced belayer using an ATC. It's not the device it's the belayer.
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aimeerose
May 7, 2003, 2:29 PM
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Yep, find a better belayer. In 6 years of climbing and leading I have never decked. Most of that time my belayer has been using gri gri, but he is a good belayer. That's why I married him (J/K) :lol: :lol:
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aarong
May 7, 2003, 2:41 PM
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I agree that the grigri can be used safely and that a "competant" belayer is necessary for ANY belay system. That said - climbers don't follow the technical instructions -
http://www.petzl.com/pdf/D14.pdf
"At certain times, in particular when the leader is clipping the
rope, it may be difficult for the belayer to give slack quickly
enough for the climber. To overcome this, slide the hand
holding the free end up the rope to the device and manually
hold the cam open, while pulling the climber’s rope through
with the other hand. The hand blocking the cam must then
immediately return to grip the free end of the rope. Caution
: to ensure safety, this procedure must only be used on a
limited basis and must be executed quickly. There is a risk for
the belayer’s hand to be clenched on the GRIGRI at the exact
moment of a partner’s fall, which results in him/her losing
control of the free end of the rope."
This is where most problems result from the grigri. Some climbers hold the arm down with their left hand and use their break hand (right hand) to feed rope out.
Climbers (new and experienced) are commonly tosssed a grigri and expected to use it without fully understanding that they must pay AS MUCH ATTENTION as if they were using any other device.
I've got several stories of experienced belayers dropping climbers while using a grigri. Would they have dropped them if they were using an ATC or some other device in the same instance? I don't think so.
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bighigaz
May 7, 2003, 3:20 PM
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Hey man, I'm just glad you're okay! Make sure that belayer of yours get a lesson or three in gri-gri use ASAP!!!
James.
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getsomeethics
May 7, 2003, 4:29 PM
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In reply to: and you should see his ropeburn :P
can you submit a pic for the morbidly curious folk!!
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jt512
May 7, 2003, 4:41 PM
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In reply to: Yep, find a better belayer. In 6 years of climbing and leading I have never decked. Most of that time my belayer has been using gri gri, but he is a good belayer. That's why I married him (J/K) :lol: :lol:
You married him because he's a good (be)lay, eh?
-Jay
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enigma
May 9, 2003, 8:08 AM
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In reply to: I agree that the grigri can be used safely and that a "competant" belayer is necessary for ANY belay system. That said - climbers don't follow the technical instructions - http://www.petzl.com/pdf/D14.pdf "At certain times, in particular when the leader is clipping the rope, it may be difficult for the belayer to give slack quickly enough for the climber. To overcome this, slide the hand holding the free end up the rope to the device and manually hold the cam open, while pulling the climber’s rope through with the other hand. The hand blocking the cam must then immediately return to grip the free end of the rope. Caution : to ensure safety, this procedure must only be used on a limited basis and must be executed quickly. There is a risk for the belayer’s hand to be clenched on the GRIGRI at the exact moment of a partner’s fall, which results in him/her losing control of the free end of the rope." This is where most problems result from the grigri. Some climbers hold the arm down with their left hand and use their break hand (right hand) to feed rope out. Climbers (new and experienced) are commonly tosssed a grigri and expected to use it without fully understanding that they must pay AS MUCH ATTENTION as if they were using any other device. I've got several stories of experienced belayers dropping climbers while using a grigri. Would they have dropped them if they were using an ATC or some other device in the same instance? I don't think so.
Unfortunately I think this happened at my gym the other night, a belayer did just that (according to witnesses). The incident resulted in a man now with crushed vertebrate awaiting surgery to put a metal rod in his back. :(The belayer supposedly was climbing for 12years)
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climbsomething
May 9, 2003, 10:09 PM
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In reply to: what happened the belayer gripped the leading end of the rope not the dead end so there was never enoug traction for the grigri to shut.... the belayer was using for the first time, but he was experienced. he just acted in acoordance with previos training. |
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dymondbak37
May 9, 2003, 10:51 PM
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I can't see how anyone anywhere can get "lazy" while (in some cases) holding their friends' life in their hands. I mean COM'ON! And even if not their life, still, the possiblity of broken bones and spinal damage is worth your attention. COM'ON PEOPLE!!!
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overlord
May 16, 2003, 10:11 AM
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what happened... he was jus feeding out slack (i was clipping a bolt), but hes hands were reversed. he was used to brake with hes left and feed slack with hes right, but you cant do that on a grigri (or youre not able to properly hold shut it with your pinky and ring finger when quicly paying slack... btw he wasnt holding the grigri on the moment of the fall), so he insinctively gripped the rope in his left hand, wich was the lead end.
it was the failure of the belayer, not the grigri.
and he is an experienced belayer, just not with grigri. he knows when to feed slack, how to dynamically belay and stuff.
grigris should be made for both right and left handed use. i previously used my right hand to feed slack because im righthanded, but with grigri i have to use my left hand. but i got used to it. so did he. believe me.
sorry, i cant post a pic because i dont have one.
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phreakdigital
May 16, 2003, 10:52 AM
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I am agreeing with others in this forum...there is no substitute for paying attention...and if you work against the equipment by grabbing the wrong side of the rope how can you expect that it will work correctly? :?:
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ajkclay
May 16, 2003, 11:01 AM
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Now for those of you who looked at the title from a psychologists point of view, did you notice the hint of expectation that this is a common occurrence by the author?
It is NOT common to deck out.
It is not some rite of passage for climbers. For many, the FIRST IS THE LAST.
Maybe I'm being picky, but for you new climbers out there reading this thread, this is not a cool thing to be able to talk about, but something you should learn from, and try to avoid.
If I had decked out in this situation, my first words to my belay would have been "WHAT THE F**K WERE YOU DOING?!"
And the admission of holding the rope on the wrong side of the belay device would have been more likely to have earnt him a punch in the nose than an assertion of how experienced a belayer he was.
Overlord, I hope your first is your last, climb safe dude.
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ajkclay
May 16, 2003, 11:04 AM
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On reading my above post, it may seem that I am criticising overlord. That is not my intention, I am merely wishing to point out that new climbers should not expect that decking out is a common an acceptable occurence.
(No troll here, move along, nothing to see)
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taino
May 16, 2003, 11:42 AM
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In reply to: grigris should be made for both right and left handed use. i previously used my right hand to feed slack because im righthanded, but with grigri i have to use my left hand. but i got used to it. so did he. believe me. sorry, i cant post a pic because i dont have one.
Forgive this seemingly innocent, naive question, but to use a gri-gri with your left hand can't you just TURN THE DAMNED THING OVER??? I am forced to use that piece of crap belay device when I climb indoors, and use my right hand on the brake line. My climbing partner is left-handed; she clips the gri-gri facing the other direction, and uses her left hand on the brake line.
What's the effing problem? I mean, fock! - the damned thing has got pictograms on it, showing which end of the rope goes to the climber, and which end goes to the brake hand!!! As long as those criteria are met, and you've threaded the rope properly, and you're clipped in properly, it really doesn't matter which hand you use as long as the gri-gri is facing in the correct direction so as not to twist the krab!!!
The one time I was dropped, the new-ish belayer (met for the first time) was using a gri-gri; opened the gate wide, saw me start to come down, and panicked - and froze, with the gate wide open and no hand on the rope. 20'. I focking hate gri-gris.
T
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corpse
May 16, 2003, 1:05 PM
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I should have my 9 yr old get an account here, so she could explain grigri usage!!
I have NO fear of her belaying me in the gyms using a grigri. When I ask her for slack, she STILL doesn't let go of hte brake hand.. the operation is pretty simple, and I can't believe petzl (in the info posted above) suggests what they do..
she will take her feed hand, or whatever ya call it, and use that to initially open the cam lock, then she'll put use a finer or 2 from her brake hand to keep it open - while holding the brake rope - and then take her feed hand and pull the rope through. For her, with her experience, this is good for a little extra slack - 6-12" or so..
I taught her that way becuase her fingers aren't as strong as mine - for me, I simply ensure I have extra slack between the grigri and brake hand, and use 2 fingers to hold the cam lock down (not using the handle) to ensure it doesn't catch - and then feed the rope like normally.
It does get a little trickier when u need to feed out more slack, like for belaying a leader (vs tr'er), however, the first time I belayed someone in a sport climb (in a gym) I used this method and it worked great, and I had the uttmost confidence I would catch em.
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jughead
May 16, 2003, 1:18 PM
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In reply to: I can't believe people call this the fault of a grigri! If he had been holding the lead end of any belay plate on the market, almost exactly the same would have happened! It was completely human error - nothing to do with the mechanics of the grigri.
GRI GRIS ARE CRAP!!! TO MANY MOVING PARTS TO GO WRONG!! :x
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overlord
May 18, 2003, 10:19 AM
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taino: im gonna try your suggestion. in a safe enviroment :P
and for the record: this was my FIRST decking experience and i dont want to try it again. and the first thing an onlooker said to the belayer was "what the hell were you thinking". the firs thing i said was "im okay."
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taino
May 19, 2003, 8:33 PM
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Glad you're okay. :P
I was lucky - I landed on 12" padding, or I probably would have compressed my spine. The belayer was in much worse shape than I.
T
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reborne
May 19, 2003, 8:48 PM
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sounds like you had a pretty god run out last clip at 3 m and going for the next at 5 i have to wunder how close you would have came to the ground even with an imediate lock on any device did you have about 2 m of rope out .... not to be captain obvious but 3 from 4 is -1
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ptone
May 24, 2003, 4:52 AM
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I once got dropped to a scraper cause someone pulled the handle too fast or far on the grigri--I had just clipped the anchors, and then was swinging there 18m down, giving him the evil eye as I arced back by each time.
He didn't want to belay ever again (He was a newbie-friend, now he's great--just TG I didn't deck)
I'm glad you're OK
I'm SURE your belayer will think about this twice, and never do it again. I've never burnt my hands with a rope, but I saw some guy drop from 10m and save himself by grabbing a tr that was hanging there, and his hands were a MESS!!
Some lessons are harder learned than others, hopefully this is the case here.
Grigris don't drop people...
People drop people!
peace
-p
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climbsomething
May 24, 2003, 5:07 AM
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In reply to: Grigris don't drop people... People drop people! |
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enigma
May 24, 2003, 8:59 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Grigris don't drop people... People drop people! PRAISE THE LORD! somebody who gets it!
The problem is alot of people don't no how to belay with them properly,especially on lead belay.
Thereby increasing the chances of accidents.
Two accidents using GriGri in my gym in a two week period. Both were serious.One ended up falling,sustaining a crushed vertebrate,and the other person a broken arm. (Something to think about :!: Not to be cavalier about, because people feel the gym is safe) :!:
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powrslave
May 24, 2003, 3:09 PM
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If a grigri is used properly like a typical belay device, it is probably better. I only use a grigri when I am climbing with a particular friend of mine that has one.
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arp30
May 24, 2003, 7:07 PM
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I agree. People who do not know how to belay in a gym on a toprope situation should surely not be outside with a gri-gri. If someone can't catch a fall as short as that one THEN THEY shouldn't" BE DOING IT! Especially outside. i'm a big fan of the 'gri because it is so versitile. It's great. But i only switched to it after about three years on an ATC. I still use the ATC once in a while to keep up with the skill. But this was truly human error...not mechanical.
Climb On
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