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dirtineye
Jun 13, 2003, 3:36 PM
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OK, that's one more death from head injury and no helment was worn.
Gear pulls.
Holds break.
People make mistakes.
Even experienced climbers can have bad luck or use bad judgement. It only has to happen once.
Your bare head will not sustain much of a blow without serious consequences.
A helment costs at most about 75 bucks. How much is your life worth?
A helment can turn a serious injury situation into a scratch on your helment and a tale to tell over beer.
And just so this post is relevant to the forum, If I had not had my helment on last weekend, you might be reading about me, but all I have to report is a skint knee, elbow and hand. I wish there were more accident reports like that and fewer serious head injuries and deaths.
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neadamthal
Jun 13, 2003, 3:40 PM
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i agree with you buddy. helmets are vital. i see people leading without them and shudder to think of the possibilities.
just one thing. i'm sure others will point this out too - its spelled HELMET, not HELMENT (unless you were going for some sort of pun there ;) thought it was a typo at first, but you didn't spell it any other way!
cheers
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interruptor
Jun 13, 2003, 4:01 PM
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Yeah, but... you know... a helmet makes you look really stupid! It's like... you know... you're afraid or something! It's really sissi of you to use a helmet... you know?...
Like... nobody wears a helmet at the crag... and the helmet is huge, it makes the rest of your body look small and weak...
If you were climbing and rocks were falling... or worse, rocks were raining, that would be cool because you could knock them away as you climbed! That would be cool!... You know?...
it's like... you're surrounded by all those strong climbers with no helmets and you look like a wimp with your helmet on... you know? And i feel SO inferior...
:shock:
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czarcastic
Jun 13, 2003, 4:14 PM
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Like I hope your joking Interruptor, because you sound like a teenager new to climbing that wants to look good rather than climb smart. Try using Like more when you like post, it makes you sound like really smart, and people will like, think your really cool because you don't like, wear one of those helmets.
Helmets save people lives and if you have climbed for any length of time longer than a year, you would realize that.
If you were joking, then ignore.
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alpinerock
Jun 13, 2003, 4:25 PM
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People, listen to this guy he knows what he's talking about. At some of the places that I climb at its not, unusual for a grapefruit sized rock to fall every other climb. USE A HELMET IT MIGHT SAVE YOUR LIFE SOMEDAY!!!
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drkodos
Jun 13, 2003, 5:39 PM
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Helmets don't save sh*t.
A microwave block is going to drive that plastic crap right into the cerebellum.....
Just more cleaning for the Funeral Director, that's all a helmet is.
Don't tell me about ice climbing, I know about it.
I'm talkin bout cragging.
Making the right decisions will keep you safer than any helmet.
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hooker
Jun 13, 2003, 5:41 PM
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In reply to: Making the right decisions will keep you safer than any helmet.
Absolutely.
Most who wear helmets do so from dogma, with no real input from their own brains.
Do you brain-bucket lovers where them while driving, too? Statiscally much more dangerous than climbing.......
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dirtineye
Jun 13, 2003, 6:01 PM
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Yep, I have missed it all my life LOL. But, you can get 5000+ hits for helment on the internet, so at least I have a lot of company LOL.
I left out rock fall as a reason, the guy talking about all that rock fall reminded me though, that Sunday I not only took a fair fall (I have no idea if my head hit anything cause I had my HELMET on LOL), but there were also several rocks that went whizzing by.
Making the right decisions has no effect on rock fall or any other head whacking event in climbing that can't be anticipated. That should be obvious.
How some people can advocate not wearing a helmet in the face of so many head injuries that result in death is something I'll never understand.
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nickb
Jun 13, 2003, 6:21 PM
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Helmets.... Hmm. I am torn on the helmet issue, sometimes I wear one and sometimes I don't. Back in the day nobody wore helmets except on alpine climbs, nobody wore a bike helmet either. The feel of the wind on your head, it just feels better not to wear one. When it is straight up, straight forward sport climbing I tend not to wear one. On routes with people above or any loose rock or corners or ledges to hit, I have been tending to wear one almost all the time. They are light and I'm sure I'll get used to it someday. I'm not sure how many of you can claim to have had a helmet save your life, but I know I have when a baseball from space plugged me dead center on the helmet while soloing ice on an alpine climb. Those old Joe Brown super helmets were tuff.
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jumpingrock
Jun 13, 2003, 6:32 PM
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Wtf is wrong with you ppl? Helmets now adays are light, and well ventalated. But heck I guess its your brain that we are talking about. I just know that when that 1/1000000 chance that a stray rock falls my head will be fine and you will have a nice dent. Of course microwave size rocks will still do in the head regardless, but just like a head on collision on the highway will kill you seatbelt or not you still wear your seatbelt.
Once again I stress its your head. If you don't have a brain to protect don't wear a helmet.
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drkodos
Jun 13, 2003, 6:45 PM
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Helmets today are a joke.
They don't protect the most exposed and dangerous part of the head, where the cranium connects to the spine.
Helmets are marketing. They do not provide the protection you think.
Those Petzl helmets are a joke. Light and completely useless unless you get hit by a leaf.....
Don't believe the hype.
Only one person saw the Emperor's clothes for what they really were....the masses are asses.
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curt
Jun 13, 2003, 6:58 PM
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Although drkodos is taking an extreme position, he is more right than wrong, in my opinion.
Climbing helmets are NOT designed to protect you in a fall. Period. They are designed to protect your head from relatively small falling objects. If you want to protect your head from injury sustained in a fall--wear a motorcycle helmet climbing. Not too practical for various reasons.
In reply to: Making the right decisions has no effect on rock fall or any other head whacking event in climbing that can't be anticipated. That should be obvious.
Curt
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dirtineye
Jun 13, 2003, 7:21 PM
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Not to put too fine a point on it , but the rock that came whizzing down where I was on sunday came from a broken hold on one of the most famous routes in the carolinas.
YOu really think thise petzl helments are a joke? Wanna let someone smack you in the head with a wall at say, 5 mph while a) wearing one, b) not wearing one? The amount of damage those puny hats will absorb before failure is enough to save your head a lot of the time. Sure if you hit too hard your helment will do no good, so what? A bullet proof vest will not stop an armor piercing round either. Would you want the vest in a gunfight or not?
The back of the head down low where the spinal column and skull connect is NOT where your head will make contact most of the time. The front, back sides and top are where you will hit usually.
There's a nice survey I'm willing to bet a certain group would want to participate in, if they were still alive. If the folks that died from head injuries could come back to life and repeat their accident, I wonder how many would choose to wear a helment on the second go-round?
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drkodos
Jun 13, 2003, 7:28 PM
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In reply to: Making the right decisions has no effect on rock fall or any other head whacking event in climbing that can't be anticipated. That should be obvious.
Understand this:
don't climb near loose rock. That's called making a decision.
If you are not smart enough to figure it out, then wear a piece of plastic, but don't tell me I have to okay? Elsewise, you're just another liberal fascist....
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raindog
Jun 13, 2003, 7:38 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Making the right decisions has no effect on rock fall or any other head whacking event in climbing that can't be anticipated. That should be obvious. Understand this: don't climb near loose rock. That's called making a decision. If you are not smart enough to figure it out, then wear a piece of plastic, but don't tell me I have to okay? Elsewise, you're just another liberal fascist....
I don't think dirtineye is trying to force you to wear a helmet against your own free will, drkodos. He obviously feels strongly that wearing a helmet will make him safer. He wants to convince as many other people as possible to wear helmets to make them safer. That doesn't seem very facist to me.
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drkodos
Jun 13, 2003, 7:44 PM
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In reply to: all I have to report is a skint knee, elbow and hand. I wish there were more accident reports like that and fewer serious head injuries and deaths.
skint?
what the f is that?
not intelligent enough to use a dictionary or even spell check....
Personally, i wish there were more injuries and deaths in climbing.
Thin out the gene pool a little.
Too many people doing it, not taking it seriously enough.
If more people get hurt and/or die, then less sh&theads that don't know what they're doing will be out at the cliffs.
Listen MFer: I've worked SAR and pulled more dead bodies from debris than any one person should. I've seen first-hand what a mangled climber looks like after plunging headfirst 1000 feet into a boulder pile. I've dealt with it.
Now take your helmet, and your dogma, and go play somewhere safe.
If you want perceived risk, ride a roller coaster.
Climbing is REAL risk.
Stay on the fvcking porch if you're scared of the big dogs, okay? and let those of us with the balls/ovaries and the brains to survive through climbing do our thing....
try a little KY and I bet that helmet can protect your colon....
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hooker
Jun 13, 2003, 7:51 PM
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he posted here and said he wished everyone else would were one. That sounds like promoting their use to me.
Helmets are marketed.
They are aimed at that segment of the demographic that goes climbing that wants perceived safety. They are marketed to gumbies and noobs that can't think for themselves.
They do not make things safer.
Top climbers that wear helmets do so for one reason, they get endorsement money. Talk to Stefan Glowacz (sp?) Does he wear a helmet since his sponsoship expired?
99 percent of fatal head injuries would not have been prevented by helmets.
Rare to do so, but agreement with Kodos on this one....
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czarcastic
Jun 13, 2003, 7:54 PM
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Drkodos: How does making the right decisions have to do with falling rock or dropped gear? And yes your right, Petzl makes crappy helmets that don't work at all, you might as well make them out of paper mache (read sarcasm here)
But hey, this is just my opinion, and really its your own noggin, you do what you like with it of course.
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holmeslovesguinness
Jun 13, 2003, 7:55 PM
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Wearing a helmt CAN save your life. I don't wear one while I'm cragging, but If you climb in an alpine environment or anywhere loose rock is present, not wearing a helmet is kind of stupid. Sure, if a big ass block hits you, you're screwed, helmet or not. But that's like saying wearing a seatbelt is stupid because you could get hit head on by and 18 wheeler and still die.
Also, I think Curt mentioned that climbing helmets are not useful in the event that you fall and hit the ground. The old school hard shell helmets are designed to deflect falling objects away from your head and aren't much good in a ground fall situation. But some of the newer designs are like bicycle helmets (with foam designed to crumble and absorb impact) and probably would help in those cases.
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neadamthal
Jun 13, 2003, 8:05 PM
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In reply to: what the f is that? not intelligent enough to use a dictionary or even spell check.... Personally, i wish there were more injuries and deaths in climbing.
what got up his ass?!
whatever your own opinion is drkodos, you're a fool to try to dissuade others from watching out for their own safety - however they chose to do it.
whatever you hard asses say, i'm going to wear my helmet when i'm leading and be proud at how much of a sissy i look. i personally want use of my brain when i'm done climbing!
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angelaa
Jun 13, 2003, 8:07 PM
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In reply to: Helmets don't save sh*t. A microwave block is going to drive that plastic crap right into the cerebellum.....
ok . . . sure the large ones you have no choice they hit you. . . your dead!
but what about the smaller ones?
I have personally been hit on the head with a fist size rock (with a helmet on) and I saw some serious stars! It came from the very top of Prodigal Son in Zion (& anyone who has been there knows the rock fall potential there is very hazardous.)
I could NOT have done anymore to avoid this rock than I did! I was at a hanging belay and under cover when it hit (my leader saw it wiz right past him and gave me fair warning! )
Had I NOT had that helmet on, I may or may not be here or I could be somewhere in a hospital still droolin'
Brain injury is NOT something to fool around with, & I honestly believe that without that helmet I would have at least been unable to finish the climb. :cry:
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angelaa
Jun 13, 2003, 8:10 PM
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In reply to: Understand this: don't climb near loose rock. That's called making a decision. If you are not smart enough to figure it out, then wear a piece of plastic, but don't tell me I have to okay? Elsewise, you're just another liberal fascist....
DID ANYONE TELL HIM HE HAD TO WEAR A HELMET?
I DIDN'T READ THAT ANYWHERE?
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soma
Jun 13, 2003, 8:14 PM
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A helmet has saved me from serious injury twice. Once climbing and once cycling. Neither time was it "my" fault. I wish I was wearing one about ten years ago when I fell of a skateboard and had to get 15 stiches in the back of my head. I was lucky that time that it was not more serious.
It is a personal decision and I don't care if someone does or not unless they are belaying me and then I will insist.
David
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curt
Jun 13, 2003, 8:16 PM
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angelaa,
In reply to: I have personally been hit on the head with a fist size rock (with a helmet on) and I saw some serious stars! It came from the very top of Prodigal Son in Zion (& anyone who has been there knows the rock fall potential there is very hazardous.) I could NOT have done anymore to avoid this rock than I did!
IF you are going to climb where you know there is a lot of falling rock, go ahead and wear a helmet--it MAY help. I never said that there was absolutely no benefit to helmets at all. However, it is even safer to use good judgement and climb where frequent rockfall is not a problem.
Curt
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cricket
Jun 13, 2003, 8:17 PM
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Went out last week and finally bought a bucket. Not pretty, but like each said, it will save your life. I will use it if the rock is real loose, or if I am to lead.
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drkodos
Jun 13, 2003, 8:26 PM
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In reply to: Brain injury is NOT something to fool around with, & I honestly belive that without that helmet I would have at least been unable to finish the climb. :cry:
That's a funny line, especially if you spelled "believe" incorrectly on purpose.
Here's the dealio:
There are times to wear helmets;
1) drag racing is one, but parachuting is not. I mean what's the point?
2) Ice climbing, almost always. But not if I'm belaying clear away from anything that could fall.
3) Kayaking rough waters yes, but flat water canoeing?
One of the nuances in climbing is how to attain the experience needed so one can continually discriminate properly in each situation which behaviors are fit best. There are many times wear NOT wearing a helmet might be safer (there are! think for yourself or see point below).
As for not preaching? All these helmet posters are ALWAYS prosteletyzing. That is the POINT of the post in the first place, so back-off with the "he wasn't advocating anything" charade.
If you are climbing on the last pitch of a desert spire, are you still scared that a frozen turd from an overhead jetliner would hit you?
Modern day Chicken Littles.
Why do so many of you put on the helmet, then turn off your brains? Is it a requirement with certain brands and manufacturers, or do you already have your brains set to auto-pilot for most of life.
edited to catch my breath and add more fuel to the flames
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angelaa
Jun 13, 2003, 8:28 PM
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In reply to: angelaa, In reply to: I have personally been hit on the head with a fist size rock (with a helmet on) and I saw some serious stars! It came from the very top of Prodigal Son in Zion (& anyone who has been there knows the rock fall potential there is very hazardous.) I could NOT have done anymore to avoid this rock than I did! I think you are missing an important point that drkodos and others (including myself) are trying to make. You could have done MUCH more to avoid the falling rock that you speak about. You state that "anyone who has been there knows the rock fall potential there is very hazardous." Knowing this, you could have gone elsewhere to climb.
Notice I said anyone who HAS been there. . . that was my first time on that climb, and I didn't read anything about that kind of rock fall in the guide books. Damn glad I wore a helmet!
I am not missing your point, everyone has choices. . but to limit my choices because some blow hard thinks that helmets are stupid (and others think 'look bad') is ludicrous. I climb for the personal freedom I get from it, not what I look like to other people.
CLIMBING IS A PERSONAL SPORT . . should you want (or not want) to wear a helmet, you should be able to do it with out people telling you otherwise.
[*if I am climbing with someone, I expect them to wear a helmet. They are holding my life in their hands and would appreciate them staying conscious. ]
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drkodos
Jun 13, 2003, 8:40 PM
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In reply to: [* if I am climbing with someone, I expect them to wear a helmet. They are holding my life in their hands and would appreciate them staying conscious. ]
How liberal of you.
You spew personal freedom and then prove you have no clue what it is.
Thanks for making the opposition's point about the mentality of people that wear, and advocate helmet use.
Personally, I need my belayer to be gourded out of his mind on fine cannabis. Should I inflict this view upon everyone? Or at least divide, and not just hide?
I also insist that while topropping, the belayer hold a Fat-free Fig Newton between his Arse cheeks. After all, I don't want him craving it, and not being able to focus on me because of his own desires.
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marcel
Jun 13, 2003, 8:41 PM
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I always wear a brain bucket, and always climb with people who do. It's a must in my book. :D
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curt
Jun 13, 2003, 8:44 PM
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angelaa,
Since you responded to me in the manner you did...
In reply to: I am not missing your point, everyone has choices. . but to limit my choices because some blow hard thinks that helmets are stupid (and others think 'look bad') is ludicrous. I climb for the personal freedom I get from it, not what I look like to other people.
I certainly have no problem with you or anybody else erring on the side of caution until you gain the experience from which you can make good judgements. Just don't think that merely wearing a helmet will mitigate all the risks you are taking by climbing in a hazardous area.
Curt
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drkodos
Jun 13, 2003, 8:44 PM
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In reply to: I always wear a brain bucket, and always climb with people who do. It's a must in my book. :D
but that's not dogma, eh?
been climbing less than a few years, chances are will be out of the sport soon anyway.....
so spew on, noob
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hooker
Jun 13, 2003, 8:45 PM
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In reply to: Personally, I need my belayer to be gourded out of his mind on fine cannabis. Should I inflict this view upon everyone? Or at least divide, and not just hide? I also insist that while topropping, the belayer hold a Fat-free Fig Newton between his Arse cheeks. After all, I don't want him craving it, and not being able to focus on me because of his own desires.
We've climbed together, haven't we......
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angelaa
Jun 13, 2003, 8:54 PM
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well Drkodos,I was just thinking you must be human, because I agreed with your previous post, . . . . .
but then there you go again being the a-hole that you must be to try and antagonize all of us.
Why must you make personal attacks - does it make you feel like more of a man?
In reply to: You spew personal freedom and then prove you have no clue what it is.
- don't worry Drkodos . . . I won't ask you to climb with me. . wouldn't trust you
In reply to: Personally, i wish there were more injuries and deaths in climbing. |
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jumpingrock
Jun 13, 2003, 9:07 PM
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drkudos, you are an idiot. Simply put. You might be the best climber in the world. You may understand risk management to a tee and you are probably right you don't need a helmet. Please though, find me 1 just one documented example of a time when a climber suffered more injury b/c they were wearing a helmet. All I need is 1 example of this and I will throw away my helmet. Wait a second though, how about the tons of documented cases of climbers sustaining greater injury b/c they were not wearing a helmet? Should we discount those?
I agree with you and curt (though curt seems to actually have some intelligence rather than simply blowing out of his ass) that wearing a helmet does NOT give a person the right to turn their brains off. Just like wearing a seatbelt does not give anybody the right to turn their brains off while driving. Use risk management by all means. Don't climb in loose areas. But tell me please. What is going to protect your head when your partner drops his #3 camalot climbing in J-tree? Gods Grace? Of course you probably wouldn't die.
All I am saying is: If you don't want to wear a helmet don't. But don't ride on the ppl that do. If they have the money to protect themselves (maybe waste) then that is their perogative. Tell them to be careful even if they are wearing a helmet but don't tell them that wearing a helmet is a sin.
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boretribe
Jun 13, 2003, 9:14 PM
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In reply to: I also insist that while topropping, the belayer hold a Fat-free Fig Newton between his Arse cheeks. After all, I don't want him craving it, and not being able to focus on me because of his own desires. |
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mtnjohn
Jun 13, 2003, 9:20 PM
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Wear a helmet
Don't wear a helmt
Who cares
Drink Pesi
Drink Coke
Who cares
Do what YOU want
Don't tell me what to do
And move along.
Whose mind will be changed regardging thier views on helmets v safety through this intenet smattering.
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kevlar
Jun 13, 2003, 9:33 PM
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I think the best helmet... is the one with the holders for beer on the sides
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climber49er
Jun 13, 2003, 9:35 PM
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People, can't you see that Drkomodos is just trying to rile you up?
And it's working fine! :lol:
I'm trying to figure out a suit that I can wear that will let me bounce if I deck from 500 feet. Oh, it also has to keep that 25 ton block that decides to seperate from the face from crunching me. Forget the helmet, I want a full body suit baby!
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marcel
Jun 13, 2003, 9:41 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I always wear a brain bucket, and always climb with people who do. It's a must in my book. :D but that's not dogma, eh? been climbing less than a few years, chances are will be out of the sport soon anyway..... so spew on, noob
I have been climbing for over 35 years. When I started climbing in the 60's we didn't wear helmets, but we got smarter, when climbers started getting hurt. I plan on climbing for atleast another 35 years, and will always wear a helmet, except when climbing inside. :D
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dirtineye
Jun 13, 2003, 10:32 PM
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Hey drkodos and hooker and all you other folks that make fun of safety devices, I'm just wondering when we will be reading about you guys in injuries and accidents. Wonder how you'll feel about helmets then.
And as for my colon, you stupid M@therF@@ker, I had colon cancer twice, and I beat that, and I know what danger and threat of death is you twit, way more than you will ever know. You think you can anticipate the problems and avoid them, well it just does not work that way. The only way you can guarantee that you will not have an accident while climbing is to stop climbing. Sooner or later, you'll have your day, and if you choose not to take all precautions you can, great.
Now get a clue and stop trying to prevent people from possibly saving their lives. Really. And, you can stop foaming at the mouth now. Relax, nobody can make you wear a helmet, even if it is a good idea.
Someone actually thought this board was not full of negativity. ROTFLMAO.
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drkodos
Jun 14, 2003, 12:36 AM
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Never.
31 years climbing.
Over 15,000 pitches led.
Never hit in the head.
People don't just flip over onto the heads and get whacked. It happens because you aren't doing something correctly: ie, rope not managed, belayer fvcking off.
Almost all accidents requiring helmets are completely avoidable.
That's my point. Period.
At last count, I have taken over 200 leader falls. Some as long as 100 feet.
Not once did I wack my head.
If it ain't safe to air it out---I don't.
I also know of Dick Williams, who took a noggin knocker while filming an insurance commercial. It almost ended his climbing career. He'll be the first to tell you: If he wasn't doing something he should'nt have been doing (repeated purposeful falls on a piece that eventually pulled because it wasn't re-inspected.) the whole thing would've been avoided.
As always, we'll all do what we want to anyway.
dirtineye: they are trying to make it mandatory at the Gunks......yes, its is true. A small minority is lobbying hard, and their message is gaining steam with the land managers because of liabilty issues. When the liars/lawyers are involved, we're all in trouble......be warned!
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camoaero
Jun 14, 2003, 1:38 AM
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I've only been climbing a little over two years. And in no way am I going to start attacking the practices of climbers with ten times the experience as myself. I just don't understand the need for all the character assassination. I personally have been planning on getting a helmet mainly because I'm taking my cue from one of my partners. It just seems like a smart 60 dollar investment that could save my life. I may never need the protection, and in the end it may just be extra weight when a giant boulder comes crashing into my skull. In cases like that there's nothing I could do to protect myself. But it only takes one softball size rock to hit me in the head and leave me a vegetable for the rest of my life. In that situation a helmet could save me. And that's all the reason I need to wear one. If someone doesn't feel the need for a helmet, I'm not going to preach my beliefs. And I wouldn't expect him to belittle me for trying to protect myself. To each his own. If it keeps me climbing another day, then it's worth it to me. Everyone makes there own decisions, and everyone has there reasons why. Why attack them for it?
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 14, 2003, 2:06 AM
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I think that for the most part helmets encourage unsafe behavior and therefore are unsafe.
They give you a false sense of confidence and encourage you to do something you wouldn’t otherwise do. (do any of you ski?)
They encourage you not to pay attention to how the rope is running beneath you.
They encourage you to climb in chossy areas.
They encourage you to climb under a climbing partner that is going to drop or knock something down on you.
They encourage you to climb underneath other parties on a loose route. (angelaa?)
You can say this is bull but I call them facts. I’ve seen it with my own eyes more times then I care to remember.
I almost always wear a helmet on a moutainbike. I hardly ever wear a helmet climbing and I don’t need to because I rarely do any of the above.
Don’t you people get that Drkodas is encouraging you to be safe climbers as opposed to being unsafe climbers that wear helmets
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raingod
Jun 14, 2003, 2:13 AM
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In reply to: Never. 31 years climbing. Over 15,000 pitches led. Never hit in the head. At last count, I have taken over 200 leader falls. Some as long as 100 feet. Not once did I wack my head.
Sounds like those guys who say "My Uncle smoked nine packs a day, only ate junk food etc... and lived to be ninety-two"
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raingod
Jun 14, 2003, 2:23 AM
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alpnclmbr1 those people climbing unsafely with helmets would be just as unsafe without. Seatbelts don't make you a worse driver, you already are. Mountainbikers pulled crazy stunts long before helmets and body armour became common. And the stunts I've seen on skis/boards before helmets started to get cool.... (I've heard this helmet debate in hockey, biking, and boarding and the anti helmet arguments are always similar)
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curt
Jun 14, 2003, 2:41 AM
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In reply to: alpnclmbr1 those people climbing unsafely with helmets would be just as unsafe without. Seatbelts don't make you a worse driver, you already are. Mountainbikers pulled crazy stunts long before helmets and body armour became common. And the stunts I've seen on skis/boards before helmets started to get cool.... (I've heard this helmet debate in hockey, biking, and boarding and the anti helmet arguments are always similar)
Again I think that the real point drkodos, alpnclmbr1 and I are trying to make is being missed. Helmets do not make you safe. If you are relying on technology to keep you safe rather than good judgement, you are far more likely to die than we are. Do you really think it is coincidence that drkodos has been climbing for 31 years without incidence, or myself for 25 years, or alpnclmbr1 for 20 years?
angella said that she would not be belayed by anyone who did not wear a helmet. Although she is clearly entitled to climb with whomever she wishes, this is clearly a position arising from ignorance. Similarly, some people will not be belayed by those not using Gri-Gris. Or, by a belayer who is not tied in--even when belaying from the ground. These are all hallmarks of inexperienced climbers trying to substitute some kind of pseudo-wisdom for real knowledge.
Curt
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dirtineye
Jun 14, 2003, 4:12 AM
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You know, I have plenty of friends who have been climbing for 20 and 30 years, and some are even fairly well known. Some wear helmets and some don't, but they all feel like helmets are a good thing even though some do not always wear em.
Experienced climbers who have never had an accident, until they do have one, die all the time. Just look at the accident reports. If you are unlucky, you only get to make one mistake.
So now the argument is that helmets encourage risk taking and unsafe practices. Then so do ropes. Dynamic ropes are even worse! So do cams. So do special climbing shoes. But you use all of those right? Aren't they safety devices too? By your standards, aren't these items at least as bad as helmets?
So helmets are a little uncomfortable. So is a harness. So are climbing shoes.
I'm starting to think that the only logical conclusion is that we all climb naked, and free solo only. Time to revive the Vulgarians. Clearly that would be the safest way to go. Except for the sunburn. And the women would laugh at me.
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raindog
Jun 14, 2003, 4:36 AM
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Not to be entirely off topic or anything....
raingod!
Your username is almost the same as mine. That's weird. At first I was reading your posts and I thought that I had gone into some kind of trance and written all this extra stuff but I couldn't remember doing it. Then I realized that you are raingod and i am raindog. Weird.
..... And now, back to the regularly scheduled program...
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 14, 2003, 4:42 AM
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Raingod
that hasn't been my experience
dirtineye
I have seen helmets contribute to a pattern of very specific safety lapses.
I am fine with you guys wearing a helmet.
Risk taking is part of climbing.
The fact still is that I have seen a higher percentage of people with helmets doing stupid things specifically related to the supposed protection a helmet offers. And these are the same people that supposedly have a higher standard of safety. That is just wrong. You use a helmet safely and I am fine with it. Safety devices are great as long as they don't make you more unsafe.
be safe
d.
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curt
Jun 14, 2003, 4:48 AM
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dirtineye,
In reply to: I'm starting to think that the only logical conclusion is that we all climb naked......And the women would laugh at me.
Curt
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moss1956
Jun 14, 2003, 4:49 AM
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June 3 a brick sized piece fell forty feet, being dislodged by pulling a rope through and hit my climbing partner on the head. Luckily he was wearing one of those petzl helmets. It punched a hole in the helmet, but only scratched his head. We climbed the next day... with a new helmet.
If better protection comes along, I would use that, but for the time being, I will WEAR A HELMET.
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fo_d
Jun 14, 2003, 5:07 AM
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I wear a helmet while leading (sport or trad) but after what happened today I'll be wearing one on belay more often form now on:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=33446&forum=27
Les
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 14, 2003, 5:14 AM
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moss1956
the rope didn't knock the rock down you did.(assuming you were leading)
fod
don't place cams behind rotten blocks
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alee
Jun 14, 2003, 5:22 AM
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I have been climbing for about 10 years, sometimes wear a helmet, sometimes don't. Anybody who can't wear a helmet and climb safely at the same time probably wouldn't notice if their IQ dropped a few points anyway. Anybody who thinks wearing a helmet makes them "safe" is wrong --- they make you safer. I notice nobody has taken Jumpinrock up and given an example of a climber worse off because they were wearing a helmet.
By the way, I am not a racing fan, but wasn't Dale Earnhart (sp?) a very experienced race driver?
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curt
Jun 14, 2003, 5:31 AM
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In reply to: I have been climbing for about 10 years, sometimes wear a helmet, sometimes don't. Anybody who doesn't wear a helmet because they think that wearing one will make them careless probably wouldn't notice if their IQ dropped a few points anyway. Anybody who thinks wearing a helmet makes them "safe" is wrong --- they make you safer. I notice nobody has taken Jumpinrock up and given an example of a climber worse off because they were wearing a helmet. By the way, I am not a racing fan, but wasn't Dale Earnhart (sp?) a very experienced race driver?
Sure. You might also want to read your horoscope before going climbing--in order to be sure that you will be safe that day.
Curt
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collegekid
Jun 14, 2003, 6:37 AM
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why the hell are you people arguing about this?
My opinion:
1. Wearing a helmet should DEFINITELY be a personal decision (people being forced to wear helmets while climbing? that's b.s.). Believe me, i was pissed when they passed a helmet law for anyone under 18 riding a bike in Ca. (i hate wearing helmets while riding my bike.) Now i'm 20, so it's up to me.
2. Helmets are going to help you more than hurt you (duh).
3. No one is perfect, i.e. no one can be perfectly safe all the time, i.e. no one has the excuse that they climb so safely that they do not need a helmet.
I had never hit my head while riding my bike before...this is why i never wore a helmet. I figured, i'm experienced and very careful, how am i ever going to hit my head? Well, one time, i was riding my bmx bike across campus to go to the climbing wall....i was going kinda fast, and swerved to avoid some girl that got in my way...when i went to pedal, the chain popped off and i went over the bars. I hit my head (luckily not too hard). I hit it hard enough to leave a small (seemingly permanent) bump on my eyebrow. Guess what i did following this incident? First, i tightened my chain. Second, i rode more carefully. Third, i bought a helmet for times when i felt like PUSHING MY LIMITS and risk losing control.
Obviously, if i had been maintaining my bike properly, the chain wouldn't have been loose in the first place and i wouldn't have fallen. But i rode the bike DAILY and was very confident in my ability to negotiate any situation...riding a bike is almost more natural to me than walking...sh!t i grew up on a bike. However, you cannot foresee all situations that may arise.
If you are PUSHING YOUR LIMITS while climbing, then you probably could use all the safety you can get. Otherwise, since nothing can go wrong, you should just freesolo. I mean, if you're truly experienced, and you are on a route that's below your limit, then what's the point of a rope? There are plenty of people that do so. They die young (usually).
Everyone's arguments are valid. However, why can't you just admit the fact that wearing a helmet is safer than not wearing one?
why does everything on this site always become a flame war?
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climbsomething
Jun 14, 2003, 7:25 AM
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collegekid has a point. camoaero has a point. alpnclmbr1 has a point. curt has a point. dirtineye has a point, and by god, somewhere in there drkodos has a point.
I don't really have a point myself though... ha
In reply to: why does everything on this site always become a flame war? |
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raindog
Jun 14, 2003, 8:23 AM
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GROUP HUG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:D
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hooker
Jun 14, 2003, 6:24 PM
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In reply to: [* if I am climbing with someone, I expect them to wear a helmet. They are holding my life in their hands and would appreciate them staying conscious. ]
Hey angelaa...
The only reason your belayer would need to wear a helmet is if you were the one dropping rocks onto them.
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drkodos
Jun 14, 2003, 6:37 PM
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In reply to: why the hell are you people arguing about this? Everyone's arguments are valid. However, why can't you just admit the fact that wearing a helmet is safer than not wearing one? why does everything on this site always become a flame war?
Everyone's arguments are not valid. Most are fallacious.
Wearing a helmet is not always safer.
That is the point. And that is why your argument is fallacious.
You state above that it is a "fact" that wearing a helmet is safer. This is not the case. This may be the case if you take info from the manufacturer. Try talking to an Actuary, instead. Do you know what one is?
According to the 3 (three) I spoke with, statiscally wearing a helmet puts you into a greater risk group....no lie. People climbing with helmets suffer 4 times the head injuries that people that don't wear them do. This figure comes directly form actuary tables used to compute insurance policies for high risk sports such as climbing.
Now why is this the case (and it is)? It's because you brain bucketers don't use your brains to think with.
All you people are blindly arguing in favor of helmets with no understanding of what the actuallities really are.
I recently had a party climb right up under the second on a climb I was guiding. When I cautioned the lower party that climbing that close was dangerous if we were to dislodge something they proudly stated: That's why I'm wearing this helmet.
A clear case of the helmet doing the thinking, and not the brain inside.Nothing like putting on ahelmet, then rationalizing assinine behavior.
Get a helmet and join the "Now I don't have to think" club.....
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hooker
Jun 14, 2003, 7:11 PM
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In reply to: This may be the case if you take info from the manufacturer. ....
Excellent point.
Most people don't realize that all the safety data they quote is from people that are trying to sell you helmets!
It's called propaganda.
Petzl has a vested interest in getting you to believe a helmet is safer.
The Magazines and their "reviews" have a vested interest.
If you believe those magazine reviews, let me show you some real estate......Magazine reviews are there to sell you gear. They do not actually critique anything.
A fist size rock will destroy that precious Petzl Helmet and your skull along with it. A best, a helmet might prevent a laceration from a small piece of debris. At best....
Helmets and cragging are not the Reese's Peanut Butter Cups of climbing. They are not two great tastes that go great together. They make no sense being together,
Wearing a helmet at a crag such as the Gunks only sends the message that you turned your brain off a long time ago, and the rest of those concerned about safety, should move as far away from you as possible.
As for this being an attack, it is not. If you think it is, you are one of the brainless ones.
Calling drkodos an idiot? Hardly. I've known the man for almost ten years. An idiot, he is not. He arguments come from the intellect, not emotion. They may be inflamatory, but they are not idiotic. If you cannot comprehend what he or Curt or Alpnclmb are saying, maybe you need to look in the mirror to see the real idiot.
drkodos:
Arrogant......most definitely.
Confident......absolutely.
Ad hominem attacks.....sometimes, but they are funny
One of the best and SAFEST climbers I've known.....yes
(folks, don't buy into his "stage" persona....he is really much different in the "real" world.)
Remember the Buddha:
you may not like the message, but you need to be open to it. People tend to turn off their brains when they hear a message that doesn't fit into their pre-conceived paradigms. When you hear conflicting info, that's the time to pay attention the most!
Suzanne
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collegekid
Jun 14, 2003, 7:13 PM
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nevermind, i'm done.
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curt
Jun 14, 2003, 7:19 PM
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I will take one last crack at making my position clear. If you set out to do a climb, you will fall into one of these three categories:
A) You are knowingly putting yourself into a situation where there is falling debris. If this is the case, wear a helmet. It MAY help.
B) You have the requisite experience and judgement to climb in situations where any type of falling debris is extremely unlikely. If this is the case, a helmet will do you no good.
C) You have got neither the judgement or experience to determine whether you are in a type (A) or type (B) situation. In this case, wear a helmet and hope for the best.
The important point that a few of us have been trying to make is that if you are type (B) above, you are far safer than being in either of the other two groups.
Curt
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jebel_andi
Jun 14, 2003, 7:21 PM
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all ways wear a helmet, there are more things then just loose rock that can fall on your head while climbing; quick draws, protection, rope, maybe even B.A.S.E jumpers?
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drkodos
Jun 14, 2003, 7:30 PM
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In reply to: all ways wear a helmet, there are more things then just loose rock that can fall on your head while climbing; quick draws, protection, rope, maybe even B.A.S.E jumpers?
Chicken little lives!
How can a quick draw just drop out of the sky?
Rope? now, that is funny :lol:
excellent satire there, jebel_andi
as for the direct question above...College Kid( who has since removed his post and question through editing)
yes, I feel safer without one. Period.
They block my vision, which is THE most important sense I have while climbing. Yes, I feel less safe with a helmet, because I am less safe with a helmet.
Did I say I wear one while ice climbing? Yes I did.
Do I wear one while drag racing? Yes.
Do I wear one while cragging? Fvck no...it would be idiotic to do so.
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hooker
Jun 14, 2003, 8:11 PM
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Just noticed that Helmet is spelled wrong in the original thread post...
Is it Helment or Helmet?
Another point awarded to the Helmets are for "people that don't want to use their brain" side of the flame wars.....
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csoles
Jun 14, 2003, 8:15 PM
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In reply to: drkodos: Arrogant......most definitely. Confident......absolutely. Ad hominem attacks.....sometimes, but they are funny
You left out:
Wrong on many technical details....unquestionably.
The fact is that drkodos is no better about regurgitating myths as those he attacks. He really hasn't done his homework on helmet standards and testing procedures. Citing actuary tables is a simple dodge and quite meaningless. Wearing or not wearing a helmet is a personal choice but base it on facts, not his antilogic.
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drkodos
Jun 14, 2003, 8:23 PM
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incorrect.
Wearing a helmet makes a statement as to what type of climber one is.
If you know anything about actuararial work, you know that these tables are most highly accurate, and refelct absolutely the risk/liabilty inherent to insurance companies in their effort to have risk transfered.
Please educate me as to what FACTS are wrong.
Helmets being safer is an opinion.
Numbers may not tell the whole story, but statistics never lie. Only the people that use them do.
I have done my homework. Many times and very thoroughly. I own five, yes five helmets. Sometimes when I guide, both the client and myself wear a helmet. It depends on the situation.
I have looked at hundreds of pages of empirical evidence, have you?
I worked in the outdoor equipment business for thirteen years, have you?
I spent my own $$$ buying products to help conduct independent tests by professional engineers, have you?
I have designed and implemented my own products (pins and large cams)in opening new routes on large walls, have you?
I know that the answers to some of these questions may be yes....so, please cite specific examples of my myth regurgitation.
I have not made ad hominem attacks. I attack the idea that wearing a helmet is safer.
It is not.
Sometimes it is.
The statement that wearing a helmet is safer is an absolute. There are no absolutes in climbing safety.
If you cannot separate yourself from your ideas than you are arguing from emotion, not intellect. That seems to be the case with most of the poeple that post here. They marry themselves to their own ideas, and if their idea is attacked, they cry foul!
As George Harrison (Within You, Without You, "Sgt Pepper") wrote/sang:
And the people
They hide themselves behind a wall
of illusion
never glimpse the truth
untill it's far to late
then they pass away....
are you one of them?
Mr Soles (product reviewer and pimp of the manufacturers) I read your reviews, and your "handy" little tips. Some are helpful. Many are banal and insulting. Am I allowed to critique your work, or do I need permission from a higher athority? I do not attack you for I do not know you, although we may have met in New York a long time ago....certainly not enough for me to judge you.
But your ideas and your pimping of products I can and do judge.
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ambler
Jun 14, 2003, 8:36 PM
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In reply to: I will take one last crack at making my position clear. If you set out to do a climb, you will fall into one of these three categories: A) You are knowingly putting yourself into a situation where there is falling debris. If this is the case, wear a helmet. It MAY help. B) You have the requisite experience and judgement to climb in situations where any type of falling debris is extremely unlikely. If this is the case, a helmet will do you no good. C) You have got neither the judgement or experience to determine whether you are in a type (A) or type (B) situation. In this case, wear a helmet and hope for the best. The important point that a few of us have been trying to make is that if you are type (B) above, you are far safer than being in either of the other two groups.
Yes that's clear enough, so I'll muddy it up again by mentioning that protection from things falling on your head (relevant to points A-C above) is only one of the two main reasons a person might want to wear a helmet. The other reason is that your head might fall on something else, for example if you're so unfortunate as to deck, swing sideways or invert in a leader fall. We might imagine an ideal like type (B) above with respect to falling, but that seems to me less real.
But also to be clear, I'm not advising that everyone else should "Wear A Helment"; I wear a helmet myself only 10% of the time, though with age that seems to be rising. Just noting that the equation contains other variables besides rockfall. We can each make our own calculations.
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drkodos
Jun 14, 2003, 8:43 PM
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In reply to: The other reason is that your head might fall on something else, for example if you're so unfortunate as to deck, swing sideways or invert in a leader fall.
But these are ALL avoidable by human behavior.
Rockfall is really the only "x" factor.
That is why all arguments need to be centered around it. I mean, you could slip down the steps in your house.
Most accidents happen in the bathroom and kitchen at home.
Most HEAD INJURIES happen at home. Do you wear a helmet
there? No. There are many more things that provide much higher danger to your head, but you don't wear a helmet in any of these events.
Mr Soles, do you dispute these Facts that most head injuries happen at home? Or in automobile accidents. Next time I see you driving without a helmet, you get two points removed from your rights to publish advise-o-meter.
The reason people wear helmets when climbing and not in the shower is because they don't think.
They just do what published material tell them to do.
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curt
Jun 14, 2003, 8:45 PM
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ambler,
In reply to: The other reason is that your head might fall on something else, for example if you're so unfortunate as to deck, swing sideways or invert in a leader fall.
Curt
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hooker
Jun 14, 2003, 8:50 PM
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curt/drkodos....
are you guys generating out of the same IP??
:lol:
:wink:
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 14, 2003, 8:59 PM
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In reply to: I notice nobody has taken Jumpinrock up and given an example of a climber worse off because they were wearing a helmet.
In reply to: I recently had a party climb right up under the second on a climb I was guiding. When I cautioned the lower party that climbing that close was dangerous if we were to dislodge something they proudly stated: That's why I'm wearing this helmet. |
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neadamthal
Jun 14, 2003, 9:08 PM
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In reply to: Wearing a helmet is not always safer.
alright then drkodos, if your argument is so sound, let's hear a case where not wearing a helmet was safer. we know the benefits of wearing a helmet, but you haven't really given us reason to think that no helmet is safer.
until you provide this YOUR argument is baseless and thus fallacious.
you make far too many generalizations for your attacks on us 'sissies' to have any effect. you may have tonnes of experience, but this doesn't translate into omniscience. you don't know any of us so you might as well be pissing into the wind.
people are going to be assinine whether they are wearing a helmet or not. that's the way i look at it.
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drkodos
Jun 14, 2003, 9:12 PM
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neadamthal (and others): I am really not trying to be condescending here. Please read and bear with what might be multiple posts that build to a larger idea....
To start we must agree on some seemingly simple things.
First.....
There are only two states of being. There is:
1) Safe
2) Unsafe
Safe is safe.
There is nothing safer then safe.
If you are safe without a helmet, how are you safer with one?
If a helmet obstructs one's view, this could be unsafe.
Are we good here so far are do we need to stop and argue these points?
Not trying to be sarcastic. Sincerely trying to demonstrate, and I will, my points....
we need to agree on definitions and terms before we can go farther...no?
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drkodos
Jun 14, 2003, 9:25 PM
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Second Tier....
Analysis of the statement: A helmet is safer.
1) Safer (?) than what?
1a) In order to be safer, something must first be unsafe.
1b) Thus: The implication is that not wearing helmet is unsafe.
Is not wearing a helmet unsafe? Has this questions really been asked and understood? This is the real crux of the argument. You see, those that feel a helmet is safer are really stating that not wearing one is unsafe.
Are we good here, or do we need to re-argue and redefine any of this?
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 14, 2003, 9:27 PM
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In reply to: If you are PUSHING YOUR LIMITS while climbing, then you probably could use all the safety you can get. Otherwise, since nothing can go wrong, you should just freesolo. I mean, if you're truly experienced, and you are on a route that's below your limit, then what's the point of a rope? There are plenty of people that do so. They die young (usually).
this is another example of a common misconception.
Excerpted from John Dill’s analysis of all climbing accidents in yosemite valley for the last thirty years.
In reply to: No true free-soloer has been killed yet, although one, critically hurt, survived only by the speed of his rescue. A death will happen eventually, possibly the result of a loose hold. Is the free-soloer more alert to the task..... |
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drkodos
Jun 14, 2003, 9:35 PM
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Third Tier:
Actuary Tables. These are sets of number used by insurance companies to determine how much to charge one for the transference of liabilty.
They are very accurate. They are, in fact, the most accurate (to date) example of quantifying human behavior into a set of statistics that man (and woman) has devised.
You think they lie? When was the last time an insurance company went bankrupt? Not too often....it does happen, but rarely. Better chance tio get hit the head, then that happening :lol:
Actuary tables. If you don't accept them. We will probably split ways here at this fork in the road. If not, read on...
Actuary tables clearly show that events where helmets are used tend to generate large numbers of head injuries. Seems likely. Helmets are usually used because there ARE threats to the head.
Actaury tables indicate that over the past 12 years, as more helmets have been sold and used to climbers, the incident rate of head injuries claimed by climbers has risen at a higher rate than those numbers of new poeple entering the sport.
That means: not only are there more head injureis, but more per 100 climbers. Of course there are more head injuries...more people are climbing.
BUT, if 1 out of 100 should suffer head injuries and 500 new climber enter the sport, the 5 more people should suffer head injuries.
Real actuary tables indicate that in this scenario outline above, 25 WILL suffer head injuries.
There is more. It is complex.
Next...the bridge from these FACTS to the actual data available on those that wear helmets and their numbers, which are higher! yet.
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hooker
Jun 14, 2003, 9:48 PM
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Actuaries are weird guys.
Sort of like the Guild Navigators in Dune.
What is their spice that allows them to determine future outcomes of behavior based on numbers. Whatever it is, I want some.....
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dirtineye
Jun 14, 2003, 9:53 PM
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THe misuse of logic by the anti helmet forces is overwhelming.
Maybe someone will have fun pointing the errors out, there are far too many for me to waste my time with.
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soma
Jun 14, 2003, 10:06 PM
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In reply to: Numbers may not tell the whole story, but statistics never lie. Only the people that use them do.
Stats never lie, BAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Statistics can be used to prove ANYTHING. If the data is collected correctly and the proper statistic is used then the null hypothesis can be rejected with a certain error. Statistics lie all the time. I know researchers that pay mathmaticians thousands of dollars to "find" "statistically significant" results in a jumble of otherwise meaningless data.
Even if you are using the right statistic you can still use a "soft" post-hoc test (parametric data) to "prove" your point.
David
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 14, 2003, 10:35 PM
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Who the F#$k cares what you do or don't do? I were a helmet and many of my partners don't. I wear one every time I climb unless I am soloing which I do lot. I don't ever ask anyone else to wear one unless they are a new student and I am teaching them. I would absolutly hate to have anyone tell me that I have to wear one. WTF?
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csoles
Jun 14, 2003, 11:15 PM
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Doc, I'm overwhelmed by your verbosity...but not your intellect. Very disappointing actually. Your drivel just isn't worth the time to answer point by point. It would be easy to pick apart and you probably know it. Indeed I have looked into the helmet issue in greater depth than you claim but I don't care to thump my chest as you do.
Surely you can be more original than calling me a gear pimp (I left R&I years ago btw). Try for some real flames...since you've proved you aren't informative you may as well be entertaining.
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cantclimbforsht
Jun 14, 2003, 11:25 PM
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drkodos said that there are only two states of being: safe and unsafe. That is just ridiculous. nothing is ever completely safe. no matter what you are doing there is always a chance of injury. there are different degrees of safeness. were you actually serious when you said the thing about safe and unsafe? i agree that most of the time when someone wears a helmet, it doesnt do anything, but everyonce in a while, something will hit your head and you will have wished you had a helmet. of course a helmet wouldnt protect against a big rock, but it would help if a small rock hit you. I was at the local crag last week which normally has barely any rockfall, but some stupid kid at the top was kicking rocks off from the top. One of these rocks hit someone on the head and he had to be rushed to the hospital. I bet that he would reccomend wearing a helmet. although the benifits of wearing a helmet may be minimal, there are no benefits of not wearing one. someone said that they impair your vision, but they dont impair it enough to cause a problem. and yes it is always best to just make safe decisions when climbing, but who says you cant do this while wearing a helmet?
helmets can definately prevent injuries. how would you feel if the man who i saw get clonked on the head told me that he wasnt wearing a helmet because someone on rc.com told him that they are unsafe?
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potreroed
Jun 14, 2003, 11:38 PM
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drkokos, thou art a fool. Still I hope you never have to eat your venomous words.
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reno
Jun 14, 2003, 11:57 PM
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In reply to: Almost all accidents requiring helmets are completely avoidable. That's my point. Period. At last count, I have taken over 200 leader falls. Some as long as 100 feet. Not once did I wack my head. If it ain't safe to air it out---I don't.
So....
You understand and admit that not all accidents requiring helmets are avoidable.
You also state that you have never taken a risk.
What a boring life you must live.
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reno
Jun 15, 2003, 12:02 AM
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In reply to: That means: not only are there more head injureis, but more per 100 climbers. Of course there are more head injuries...more people are climbing. BUT, if 1 out of 100 should suffer head injuries and 500 new climber enter the sport, the 5 more people should suffer head injuries. Real actuary tables indicate that in this scenario outline above, 25 WILL suffer head injuries. There is more. It is complex.
Not really....
Do you suppose the influx of more climbers causes the overall median skill level to dimish somewhat?
In other words, all these "new climbers" are just that... new. And therefore more prone to falls... and therfore more prone to injury?
You can toss out numbers as much as you want, but in the end, there are three types of lies: Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics.
Have a nice day.
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neadamthal
Jun 15, 2003, 12:18 AM
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the thing is that 'safe' is a construct of our minds - sorta looking to the future and trying to hedge your bets - so if a helmet can increase your odds of living through a bad situation then i think it IS safer only because we can forsee that benefit.
thus the helmet only really IS safe if it end up helping you out. until then it contributes nothing but your perceived safety. and yes, if a big muther of a rock hits you it hasn't increased your safety, just a prior and fleeting hope of conveyed safety.
but if it might help me i'll use it. maybe after a while i'll be more comfortable on the rock and will feel differently about it, but not right now! ;)
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drkodos
Jun 15, 2003, 12:25 AM
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reno:
the number of people with over five-years climbing experience having bad accidents is at an all time high. It is not just newbies. Don't misconstrue the point. Here it is: Climbing is being sold as something that can be made safe.
Sport climbing, helmets, gri-gri's. It's always the same issue. Buy something and be safer. Whether or not you choose to see it, doesn't matter. It's happening. People, newbies and veterans alike, are convinced that their own brains and the experiences given are not as important as what someone like Mr Soles comments about a pair of shoes.
The whole idea of posting for advice on the internet proves my point! Why would you come here and take advice from anyone regarding your life is beyond me.
Discourse? Yes.
Argument and exchange of ideas? Of course.
Advice on climbing? The fact that one chooses to even ask for advice marks them as an idiot. Beginner or noob, being unable to determine for themselves what is and isn't safe, makes you unable to even comprehend what the hell is going on. These people should be watching Jerry Springer, not climbing, and not posting on climbing message boards.
Mr Soles....did you ever give anything less than a C in any of your reviews?. Everything you ever commented upon seemed just fine. I guess getting free gear to review doesn't bias your lame ass. Mr Soles, you are too much of a chicken poopie to actually try to refute my points. You just answer by saying you won't answer. Proof positive of your superior pimping skills. Nothing wrong with pimping. I pimp lots of things myself. I'm just honest about who the real master is... $$$$. You are just lame and a tool of forces beyond your scope. I pity you.
Prove to me the gear you reviewed isn't a freebie.
Want me to post your embarassing suck-ups to these manufacturers? There out there, for everyone to read. All your disgusting, saccarhine reviews for gear that has been proven to be tech for tech sake, and does nothing good except generate revenue for some corporation.
How big do you want the flames, before you actaully make a statement that argues the points. Instead, you hide behind some wall of illusion.
Bring it on....
no one has refuted anything I've said. They cut and paste and distort. They adhominem attack. They select various tid bits and take them out of context.
Remember: only one person saw the emperors's new clothes for what they really were.
The rest of you people are polishing the brass on the Titanic
edited for language as per my recent warning. my wrist is still sore, but able to correct
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neadamthal
Jun 15, 2003, 12:31 AM
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In reply to: no one has refuted anything I've said.
i refute that! so burned! ;)
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hooker
Jun 15, 2003, 12:38 AM
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drkodos:
will you be plaing the Human torch in the Fantastic Four movie?
Those are some awesome flames. Which end are they coming from?
your best friend.....
Suzanne
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drkodos
Jun 15, 2003, 12:48 AM
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In reply to: drkokos, thou art a fool. Still I hope you never have to eat your venomous words.
I eat them all the time.
Like all Americans, I drown them with ketchup...Yum-Yum! Like McDonald's, it all tastes the same, and looks the same when I'm done sucking out the nutrition.
Get over yourself. Get past the bluster and look at the real issue. I do all the time.
So what words do I need to eat? The ones wear I say I use my helmet when guiding? How about the ons where I state that ice climbing is foolish without a helmet.
I just think you have to read everything to really understand the larger points.
Like most, you read enough to think you get it. Once you get offended, you shut your brain off. That's okay. I expect it.
Most are judging with only a glimpse at the real points and issues. That's okay.
You all are so close to convincing me how wrong I am. I am at the crux of changing and being a better person. Won't you please help?
Send your donations to:
Help drkodos get a life and a clue
PO BOX 69
Lost Wages, Nevada
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hooker
Jun 15, 2003, 12:52 AM
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In reply to: Send your donations to: Help drkodos get a life and a clue PO BOX 69 Lost Wages, Nevada
csoles might not want to admit it, but those last rants were very entertaing, in a "What the heck is wrong with you" kind of way.
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camoaero
Jun 15, 2003, 12:56 AM
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Do you accept VISA Doctor?
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drkodos
Jun 15, 2003, 1:06 AM
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Mr Soles:
In the June 94 issue of Rock & Ice you wrote an editorial for the magazine.
In the first paragraph you state: "200 representatives from government, non-profit organizations, and outdoor industry came together with the lofty goal of charting the future of human powered recreation in the United States." bold emphasis mine
You state again and again how often you sleep with the governement and the manufacturers in determing the"future" of our sport and then you say you don't pimp? Nowhere in the article do you state that the actual concerns of the invidual climbers were addressed. Only the concerns of larger institutions. This is but one of many pieces where you detail how you and your cronies will outline the course of climbing over the upcomming years.
You can fool most of the people most of the time, Mr Soles. But not me. I've been re-reading your propagandistic shilling for the companies. It's all there for anyone else to read also.. Buried amound dozens of issues in climbing rags, where you outline the path YOU think climbing should take.
I worked as journalist and realize the pressures to write certain things, at certain times and in certain ways. If the newspaper lives off the ad revenues from restaurants, do you trust their restaurant critic? Please address this issue. Can you?
Give me reason to trust the words of a man whose salary came from the revenue of selling ads to the companies whose gear he reviews.
To Pimp, according to Webster's: To entice, allure.
Isn't that exactly the point of your glowing reviews? To encourage people to go spend money on gear. It's certainly the point of a restaurant review. Same too with a movie review.
But not you. You are above this. Your self-appointed "LOFTY" (your words, not mine) perch allows you to be above and beyond reproach? On the contray...the smaller the issue, the larger the body politic.
I am still looking for one negative review in all your years as an editor. Even that shameful suck-up Harry Knowles, on Ain't-it-cool-news doesn't like something once in a while.
Not once do you ever advise to "not buy." It always: it's great! A good deal! Buy! Buy! Buy! Hard to beleive with all the thousand of pieces of gear you were given (for free) to review, that you've never found one that sucks. You certainly never wrote about it.
Please point out your non-bias. I'm still looking and I'm running out of magazines.
Until then, keep hiding from the truth, and I stand by my statements that you are nothing more than a corporate pimp. You just don't realize it.
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smiley
Jun 15, 2003, 1:17 AM
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In reply to: Yeah, but... you know... a helmet makes you look really stupid! It's like... you know... you're afraid or something! It's really sissi of you to use a helmet... you know?... Like... nobody wears a helmet at the crag... and the helmet is huge, it makes the rest of your body look small and weak... If you were climbing and rocks were falling... or worse, rocks were raining, that would be cool because you could knock them away as you climbed! That would be cool!... You know?... it's like... you're surrounded by all those strong climbers with no helmets and you look like a wimp with your helmet on... you know? And i feel SO inferior... :shock:
Yeah, but if you fall, you're not going to care how you look as they're airlifting you off to a medical facility. I'd protect your assets.
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hooker
Jun 15, 2003, 1:34 AM
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In reply to: Mr Soles: In the June 94 issue of Rock & Ice you wrote an editorial for the magazine. In the first paragraph you state: "200 representatives from government, non-profit organizations, and outdoor industry came together with the lofty goal of charting the future of human powered recreation in the United States." bold emphasis mine Give me reason to trust the words of a man whose salary came from the revenue of selling ads to the companies whose gear he reviews. Your self-appointed "LOFTY" (your words, not mine) perch allows you to be above and beyond reproach? Not once do you ever advise to "not buy." It always: it's great! A good deal! Buy! Buy! Buy! Hard to beleive with all the thousand of pieces of gear you were given (for free) to review, that you've never found one that sucks. You certainly never wrote about it.
well....we're waiting......
don't think we'll get a staight answer.
And all the time I thought this was about helmets being safer?
Awesome thread......
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drkodos
Jun 15, 2003, 1:38 AM
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All I hear are some crickets chirping.
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climberpunk
Jun 15, 2003, 2:14 AM
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the serious part of my post:
Helmets do not make you safe. The most effective preventive tool to avoid injury is your brain. If you let anything get in the way of that, you're fvcked. If you let a helmet trick u into beliving that you're invincible, you will more than likely get hurt. Helmets are bad in the same way that cams are bad, if you think that they are gaurenteed to save you, they might not. They CAN allure [or pimp, according to websters] you into taking greater risks. However, if you don't give into the false sense of security, and dont take any risks with a helmet you wouldnt take without a helmet, then you will be safer. by "safer" i mean you will have a lowered chance of dying. Wearing a helmet will remove one possible form of injury-small rockfall/dropped gear. OF COURSE you will be safer if you avoid dropped gear and rockfall, but you'd also be safer if you didnt climb at all.
bottom line: If, when you wear a helmet, you allow it to lull you into a false[or perhaps not so false] sense of security, you will have exposed yourself to greater risk. If you remember that a helmet WONT always save you, and treat it as a extra precaution, to supplement your judgement, it COULD save your life in a scenario that was unavoidable [rockfall at a normally solid crag]. And as far as im concerned, thats worth wearing one.
ANTI-FACISM DISCLAIMER Ok. noone call me a facist. I belive, more than anything else in life, that NOONE SHOULD MAKE ANY DECISION FOR ANYONE ELSE. EVER. This is why im anarchist. If you want to flame me for that, then please make a new post, dont clutter this one any further. I belive that anyone should choose wether or not to wear a helmet. I also belive that it makes you safer, and that IN GENERAL its a good idea to wear a helmet, and i encourage it. But if you dont want to, then dont. Im not gonna say i dont care, because i do. ill be sad if you die. but you have every right not to wear a helmet. so dont. just realise that you are making a decision, similar to [but much much less extreme] than deciding to free-solo. whichever you do, remember to have fun! or not, if its not your thing...
my last point, its basically a flame:
In reply to: Most HEAD INJURIES happen at home. Do you wear a helmet there? No. There are many more things that provide much higher danger to your head, but you don't wear a helmet in any of these events. Mr Soles, do you dispute these Facts that most head injuries happen at home? Or in automobile accidents. Next time I see you driving without a helmet, you get two points removed from your rights to publish advise-o-meter.
i realise there are spallin' mahstakees in mah' poost here...correcting them to prove my stupidity is petty and obnoxious. but as always, you're free to do so.
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brianthew
Jun 15, 2003, 3:11 AM
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In the style of the above sig:
^ 1 49r33 \/\/1+|-| +|-|4+ d00d. |-|3l/\/\3+5 4r3 /\/0+ 4 54v3 4ll, ju5+ 4 l1++l3 i/\/5uR4/\/c3 4g4i/\/5t 5u8jec+1\/3 d4/\/g3r5.
Heehee.
/me is a l337 h4x0r!!1
Anyway, I just paged through the recent R&I about free soloing....and there's Mr. Alex Huber free soloing some 18 pitch 5.12....with a helmet. I suppose one could bring up that sponsorship thing here, since he is a sponsored climber, but still...interesting nonetheless. Now I realize that Huber wasn't just cragging here, it was a serious and extremely commiting climb.
Helmets at crags? Meh. Whatever. Wear what you want. But I think we should all read about the benefits of wearing helmets while bouldering!!!
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camoaero
Jun 15, 2003, 3:19 AM
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Doctor,
What exactly are you trying to accomplish? Are you just sticking up for all the helmetless climbers out there? Or are you trying to dissuade other climbers who feel the need to protect themselves whenever possible.
You seem like a fairly intelligent and well informed individual, although you sometimes try and prove everyone otherwise. You can't take a few pieces of anecdotal evidence and use them to label the norm. All climbers are different; just because you've witnessed a few ignorant climbers with helmets, does not mean all fall within those lines. It seems rather ironic you've not mentioned any of the very skilled and respected helmet toting climbers I'm sure you must have come across in your what, 31 years of climbing.
On the other hand, if you're just continuing this subject for the sake of debate, then by all means: thread on man, thread on.
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 15, 2003, 3:32 AM
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camoaero
read the thread, he has said it at least a dozen times in different ways.
also check mine and curt's among others if you still don't get it.
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 15, 2003, 3:36 AM
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duplicate
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drkodos
Jun 15, 2003, 3:38 AM
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In reply to: It seems rather ironic you've not mentioned any of the very skilled and respected helmet toting climbers I'm sure you must have come across in your what, 31 years of climbing. On the other hand, if you're just continuing this subject for the sake of debate, then by all means: thread on man, thread on.
I'm not sure what your question to me is on that first part.
regarding the latter: I am trying to only spectate from here on out in this thread. But like a crack addict, I always need one more hit. Hard to not respond to direct inquireies of me....
If you asked me to talk of the skilled helmet toting climbers I met? I'd mention that Jim McCarthy wears a helmet in the photos I've seen of him in the Bugaboo's and has never worn a helmet when I've seen him in the flesh at the Gunks and Adirondaks. I don't know very many climbers that wear helmets on a regular basis.
I stay clear of those that do. That is the truth.
People with a real reason to wear helmets don't bother me.
People with psuedo reasons scare the heck out of me.
My point again is this:
The helmet issue is usually not decided by the individual. Larger forces are at work. Economic forces. People think they make decisions based on facts, when i realty, most of these "facts" are nothing more than propaganda to increase sales revenue. Disguised propaganda, masquerading as "tech Tips" and other over simplified nonsense.
My goal is this:
To get poeple to question why they do things. And to continue to question. And then question again.
My theory is this:
Most people don't really understand why they do things, such as wear a helmet. They cling to preconceived ideas and rationalizations. When asked why? They spew forth with regurgitations of company propaganda. Just seeing the same rhetoric over and over again as to why people wear helmets must be a clue to someone other than three of us here that most of these poeple cannot, will not and don't think for themselves.
Not all, but most.
With regards to where climbing is headed:
This is a threat because it leads to less individuality and greater regulation, control and priviledge to do so, only through the augmentation of larger institutions (Access Fund, et al.)
People read these assisinine "Tech Tips" in a magazine and then think they've learned something. "Tips for better bouldering" or whatever.
"Ten tips on how to rationalize being a good father, yet never being home because you are always climbing." by drkodos
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curt
Jun 15, 2003, 3:49 AM
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In reply to: Anyway, I just paged through the recent R&I about free soloing....and there's Mr. Alex Huber free soloing some 18 pitch 5.12....with a helmet. I suppose one could bring up that sponsorship thing here, since he is a sponsored climber, but still...interesting nonetheless. Now I realize that Huber wasn't just cragging here, it was a serious and extremely commiting climb.
Curt
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brianthew
Jun 15, 2003, 4:07 AM
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In reply to: Well, here is a case where a helmet makes perfect sense. If Alex were to fall off the 17th or 18th pitch and land on his head, he would really be in trouble without the helmet.
No kidding! Not to mention risk of meteor strikes and wayward cruise missiles. Personally, I wear a flak vest as well when I climb. :D
sarcasm!!!!11
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csoles
Jun 15, 2003, 5:07 PM
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ROTFLMAO! You had to go back ten years to find something I wrote to pick on?! And it turns out the piece you selected was actually about working to maintain access for climbers on federal lands. Amazing that you remember meeting me at the Gunks 25 years ago (any reason I should recall you?).
Of course you're too blinded by your dogma to realize I wrote far more informative and critical reviews than anybody, much to the chagrin of many companies and the mag's ad people. Always felt an educated consumer could make the best choice for themselves so my articles were usually 2/3 info and 1/3 review, without product awards that are just meant to sell. (Tech Tips was the other mag btw.) Since you've already decided I'm part of the evil conspiracy, it's as pointless to debate you as teaching a pig to sing.
Back to topic: Doesn't appear you've ever known a good friend who has suffered a serious brain injury; it's ugly. I wouldn't wish that on anyone but it might change your perspective. Even a slight reduction in the severity of a brain injury is a major benefit of a wearing a helmet. Are you really a doctor or just a quack? Why don't you rant on the dangers of using bouldering pads? We certainly never had those back in the day and now look at all the injured climbers. Pure consumerism, that's all they are.
Keep the flames coming, you're too funny! But don't expect me to wait here breathlessly for your long-winded reply...at least one of us has a life. Of course, you can claim victory at having defeated me if I don't bother to answer your diatribe. Whatever.
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drkodos
Jun 15, 2003, 5:46 PM
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Mr Soles.
Thank you for the cogent and well stated reply.
I am not trying to win.
And yes, I have known freinds, and a family member tha HAS suffered irreversible brain damage. That point is moot. I operate out of logic, not PERSONAL and EMOTIONAL needs.
Sorry to go back ten years, I don't have all the recent mags. I stopped purchasing them because they have turned into rags. I do have more recent stuff, tho.
You challenged me to at least entertain you and I have done that.
Are you still disappointed in my intellect? Or can you at least admit that I have one, even though it may differ than yours?
Have fun.
Peace,
and beleive it or not: No hard feelings.
I never take anything away from these boards into the real world.
Again, thanks for the reply.
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smiley
Jun 15, 2003, 6:05 PM
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Csoles, as in *the* C. Soles? This is so cool!!! I love your mag.
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deleted
Deleted
Jun 15, 2003, 6:13 PM
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dont bother
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dirtineye
Jun 15, 2003, 6:18 PM
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drkodos, the most entertaining thing you have said is that you operate from a logical base, when you have made so many logical errors that it would take at least an hour to detail and explain them all.
But to remain on topic, you do have one valid point, and that is that safety equipment is not a substitute for safe behavior.
OK, you have two valid points. Climbing mags pretty much suck. But that's another thread.
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takeme
Jun 15, 2003, 7:56 PM
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The anti-helmet delegation has some good points. I do believe that plenty of people where helmets in lieu of the more difficult tasks of learning how to fall safely, resisting the temptation to climb under other parties on loose routes, etc.
However it seems that people on both sides are missing some important points. The thought has been expressed repeatedly by "drkodos" and "curt" in particular that one can and should choose to climb in areas that don't have loose rock. I find this laughable. I don't think I have ever climbed in an area that didn't have loose rock. Even Lumpy Ridge, possibly the cleanest area I've ever been, has occasional looseness. My favorite climbing areas include such places as the high country of RMNP, Eldorado Canyon, the Black Canyon, and various desert areas. The best climbing I've ever done, and loose rock is a fact of life at all these places. Eldo in particular is a "cragging" area, and offers some of the cragging anywhere in the world, yet rotten bands and loose flakes area everywhere.
I'm not saying that anyone who doesn't wear a helmet is unsafe--on the contrary, it is certainly true the many of the safest climbers I know never wear helmets. Several of my regular partners don't--they are safe and I've got no problem climbing with them at all. I didn't used to wear a helmet myself, but now I've got one of the new-fangled light ones and I wear it most of the time. I barely even notice it. I know of more than one occasion where it has saved a friend or acquaintance from head injury in a lead fall.
In particular I have a good friend who guides for Colorado Mountain School, one of the country's leading guide services, who is a very skilled and experienced climber. He's been climbing 15 years, has taken many lead falls and finally took one completely unexpectedly last year on El Cap, flipped upside down, and hit his head. His helmet probably saved his life. He certainly knows how to fall safely, and he is certainly not the first highly skilled and experienced climber to have something like this happen. To say that it could never happen to you is folly. Climbing is unpredictable no matter how skilled and experiences you are. I go back and forth on this issue, as there are in fact some good reasons for not wearing a helmet (something many people who do wear them are unwilling to admit). But that doesn't mean that there aren't experienced climbers that have made the choice to wear one, and are safer for it.
Charles
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drkodos
Jun 15, 2003, 8:07 PM
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In reply to: drkodos, the most entertaining thing you have said is that you operate from a logical base, when you have made so many logical errors that it would take at least an hour to detail and explain them all. But to remain on topic, you do have one valid point, and that is that safety equipment is not a substitute for safe behavior. OK, you have two valid points. Climbing mags pretty much suck. But that's another thread.
Dirtineye,
please educate me. Show me the flaws in my logic.
I have a Master's degree in Rhetoric (Temple University). A Phd in philosophy (U Penn) and a law degree (Boyd).
You will have a better chance in finding flaws in the logic of Mr Spock.
My point may be incorrect (they're not).
You may disagree with the hypothisis.
You may disagree with the thesis.
You may disagree with the conclusion.
But the logic is not flawed.
One of the problems is that no one else is actually applying true logic.
I repeat: There are only two states of safety.
Safe or not safe.
I never said there was something in climbing that is absolutely safe.
At least Mr Soles (whom I actually respect, I just needed to smudge him alittle in an overexageratted diatribe to prove a point....that most people get their info from sources that have a vested interest is SELLING THEM STUFF!) argues from a point of knowledge. And although he really hasn't proven me wrong, he has forced me, with his excellent post, rhetoric and style, to accept and respect his position.
dirtineye, you are still not there.....
keep trying.
now run along, and see if you can't find us a Unicorn.
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sandbag
Jun 15, 2003, 9:46 PM
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Ive got the solution! Im developing a completely enclosed climbing suit similar to the type used for undersea deep diving and will only add about 5-600 lbs to the gear already used. It will come equiped with an ejection seat so if the dislodged projectiles are large enough to destroy the unit, youll safely reach the ground after a little ride in the nylon elevator. whew!
:lol:
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vertical_planar
Jun 15, 2003, 9:56 PM
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I admit that I am not going to read the whole thread but here are my thoughts on the subject:
I have found that helmets can/have saved people from minor/major injuries. They wont help you from large size stones but they can spare you from a smaller size/higher speed stones.
I cannot forget the pieces of limestone that are permanently stuck inside a friend's helmet after a rockfall in the dolomites.
Rockfall has also been the indirect cause of many accidents (when loss of consiousness occurs etc)
My attitude towarads helmets was formed after studding a tome published by the German Climbing association. It was a description of climbing accidents of all sorts accompanied by an analysis of the causes. According to this collection of data, a siginificant amount of accidents could have been avoided by wearing a helmet. On the other hand, I can only recall one type of accident caused because someone weared a helmet. Helmet untied slipping from the head of the leader and hitting the second. [..]
I understand that commercialisation that hits climbing is frustrating. But lets not start arguing that we should not use seat belts on cars because they can prove fatal in case of fire...
And please, if you wish that "more people were dying in climbing" please take a positive step and go kill yourself
(thanks again for bearing my poor English) :)
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dirtineye
Jun 15, 2003, 10:46 PM
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God save us, a lawyer AND a phlosopher!
Rhetoritiian = persuader with out concern for truth.
Lawyer = Rhetoritician who gets paid well.
Phoilosopher = one seeking to justify their rhetoric.
Now I see why you have so much trouble with logic. If you had a degree in math, I'd be worried.
I don't want or need your respect. You lost mine about 8 pages ago.
Show you where you are wrong? If you knew as much about logic as you think you do, you could figure that out for yourself. You'll have to pay me to do it for you. Besides some others have already pointed out a few of your errors. Go study their posts like a good lad. Come back when you understand your mistakes.
Whatever you do, keep posting, I'm having a good laugh.
And by the way, Mr Spock was a fictional character, but his written-by-script-wrriters-without-a-clue logic is just about at the level of yours, so I completely understand why you chose Spock as an axample.
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hooker
Jun 15, 2003, 11:06 PM
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True story.
I was belaying a climber on a route: Son of Easy O.
There was a young woman belaying a leader on the route to my left: Baby.
The leader dislodged a rock and yelled: "ROCK !!!
The belayer looked up, and the rock wacked her in the cheekbone. She may have needed sutures, possibly even fractured the bone. She stayed in good spirits and the injury wasn't life threatening. There was a lot of blood, and a nasty gash that to this day I don't know if it left her scared, or not.
She was wearing a helmet the whole time.
There is a big difference between these next two statements:
1) Helmets make you safer.
2) Helmets MAY make you safer.
If you do not wish to recognize the subtle, yet distinct difference between these two, then that is a bridge that cannot be crossed through any form of communcation. There is a major difference between the philosophies & behaviors that arise from how one incorporates the meaning of these statements into a climbing paradigm.
Have fun,
Be SAFE in whatever form you may find appropriate to your individual needs.
And most of all:
......play nice :D
Suzanne
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reno
Jun 16, 2003, 12:01 AM
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In reply to: reno: the number of people with over five-years climbing experience having bad accidents is at an all time high. It is not just newbies. Don't misconstrue the point. Here it is: Climbing is being sold as something that can be made safe.
Dr. Kodos:
First, please call me Jeff. "Reno" is a nickname I use only because "Jeff" was already in use. :)
I think you are sending a different message than what you are REALLY trying to say. You seemed to imply that helmets do not offer any measure of safety, rather than what I *think* you are trying to say: Climbing is dangerous, regardless of helmet use.
Now then... I disagree that climbing is being sold as something that can be made "safe." Rather, I think the equipment and gear sold to climbers promotes an increase in the safety margin. This is not the same as "safe." Every piece of gear/equipment/guidebook/magazine/journal/etc. I've ever seen regarding to climbing always makes the claim that climbing is dangerous, you can be hurt or killed, etc. Granted, part of this is an attempt at legal protection (misguided or futile as it may be, but that's another discussion,) but part of it is simply fact: Climbing IS dangerous. We all agree on that.
Yet who is to say I am wrong for attempting to mitigate those dangers as best I can, given what options exist? Driving a car is dangerous. Yet we don't totally eliminate the activity and walk everywhere. Rather, we make improvements: Better auto design, seatbelts, airbags, etc. Despite these advances, we still have a measure of risk when we drive (trust me... I see dead people from auto wrecks regularily.)
Climbing is no different: There is an inherent danger, but taking steps to mitigate the risk is not wrong: T'were things otherwise, we'd not have improved the construction of ropes, carabiners, protection, etc. We'd still be climbing on twisted hemp ropes wearing swami belts and hoping the leader does not fall.
Helmets *DO* offer protection from injury. They *DO* make climbing safer. The degree to which they perform this task may be subject to debate, but the simple fact that they do perform the task is not.
Respectfully,
Jeff B.
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weedy
Jun 16, 2003, 12:45 AM
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I alwas wear a helmet. When you smoke lots you never know where your head will be and it could hit some rocks and get messy. Plus you can stash papers and matches up there for the belay ledges.
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djmacedonas
Jun 16, 2003, 2:42 AM
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LOL Weedy:
Dr Kodos, I agree with the majority of your points, but, really, your logic is flawed:
You claim that you hate absolutes such as:
"Climbing helmets make you safer"
Yet you make some "absolute" statements yourself:
e.g.
"Wearing a helmet while cragging is idiotic"
"wearing a helmet makes a statement about what kind of climber you are"
It would be illogical in my opinion to make assumptions about ones climbing ability, knowledge, or safety based on the hat they choose to wear.
Later, you state that most climbing accidents are avoidable, except for random rockfall. True, I agree with you, but so much at the crags is beyond our control. A friend of ours once showed up to a crag in Utah... a little slab area called "the slips", essentially an 80-foot 5.6-5.8 wall. He had a new climber with him... and she climbed quite well for a noob... but he never instructed her that she had to yell "rock" if she knocked anything loose. That little ping-pong ball sized rock actually made a whizzing noise before it hit (the first time I was alerted to it's presence). It hit a boulder, whizzed past me missing me by about two feet, then whizzed inches from my friends head. I have no doubt that he would have been seriously injured or killed had it hit him, even though he was about 20 feet from the plumb-line that rock initially took. For the record, none of us were wearing helmets, though that event really made us consider them, and for the first time I realized how dangerous rockfall can potentially be, even at a "crag".
So here's the point. If you were there, maybe with your experience you would have insured that the girl your friend brought new all the climbing commands. I doubt it, but I may be wrong. For arguments sake, let's just assume you wouldn't have. Let's also assume that you sensed some danger with this newbie, and you sat on that log 20 feet away to take your shoes off and move on to another route (which is what my friend was doing)... Now, there are all these chains of events that our no longer in your control... Lack of proper instruction for the noob-- her kicking a rock off at the top... not having the sense to yell something... a rock hitting a 45 degree perfectly angled boulder at the base of her climb 20 feet away from your perch... you sitting, bent over, untying your rock shoes, a rock now hurdling toward your head:
Now, how is wearing a helmet "idiotic"? What might you have done differently, assuming you're not wearing a helmet.
Really, those are my only concerns with your arguments. For the record, I still rarely wear a helmet at well traveled crags (mostly for the reasons you stated...and it comes down to risk assesment, how likely is an event like the above described event? Not very likely, usually, IMO.)
I agree with you, that a lot of gear is being sold for the WRONG reasons. To give people a perception of safety...and maintain "perceived" risk. Ski gear is another biggie. Did a lot of telemark skiing and some backcountry in Utah... Avy gear is a big seller there. Avy gear is great, but no replacement for using your mind in the first place... one product in particular scares the crap out of me: The Avalung... This is a device that requires you to successfully negotiate a number of steps to get a mouthpiece into your mouth while being pureed by an avalanche so that you can breathe through the snow and your body and your friends have more time to dig you out. Scary as hell, because I'm afraid such a device will give people the false sense of security and the license to be stupid. SUVs are another biggie (and no, I don't want to start an SUV argument in this forum)... Waaaaaay to many people use them to replace their brains, especially when driving in the snow... Air bags, anti-lock brakes, seat belt tensioners, 4-wheel drive, NONE of that crap can help you more than not getting yourself in an accident in the first place, and so many idiots drive these tanks like nothing else matters, because they are so well protected (so they think- I know 7 people who have rolled their SUVs in the last decade, two of them with fatal consequences.)
Perception sells... I just moved back to New Jersey after spending 8 years in graduate school in Utah (don't ask me why I did such a stupid thing, I'm not long for this place... I'll probably climb the gunks in the fall, then move back out west... Stooopidity runs way to rampant over here.) Anyway, I've seen more Hummers and H2s here than ANYWHERE out West. What gives? Everything in NJ is PAVED people... INCLUDING THE FREAKING HIKING TRAILS!!!! (Although after hitting a few NJ potholes with a Bilstein shock equipped VW Golf, I may become a convert to the whole Hummer Thang...). I remember when "Cliffhanger" came out, friends who worked in a NJ climbing store said they were inundated with yuppies coming in and asking for that "bolt gun sylvester stallone used in that movie" But I digress...
A couple more points:
RE: actuarys... can it be that people who are wering helmets are more likely to be alpinists (mountaineers), a subgroup of climbers more likely to be injured?
As for helmets being pushed by the climbing 'rags', maybe true, but then how do you explain the fact that 99% of rock climbers in those magazines aren't wearing helmets?
Finally, though I agree with you on much of what you said (as if you care) I can't agree on one thing: No matter how stupid a noob is, no matter what vehicle they choose to drive to the crags, or what hat they wear... I would really never ever hope they "Die to thin the gene pool"... :?
djm
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sonso45
Jun 16, 2003, 2:45 AM
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I like to stash my silk balaclava in there; my hankie too, for hard scary climbs so I can wipe the tears off my stubbly cheeks.
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sindbad
Jun 16, 2003, 12:28 PM
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In reply to: My point may be incorrect (they're not). You may disagree with the hypothisis. You may disagree with the thesis. You may disagree with the conclusion. But the logic is not flawed. One of the problems is that no one else is actually applying true logic.
Logic itself doesn't make you right (although I pretty much agree on your safety opinion).
I always wear a helmet at my local crag - mainly because it is right down to the sea, and tourists at the top have a nasty habit of throwing rock in the sea. Sometimes they dont throw hard enough. The only time I actually notice I'm wearing it, is when I bump it against the rock, forgetting that my head is 2" taller. :wink:
Be safe - wear a condom.
sindbad
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ljthawk
Jun 16, 2003, 1:26 PM
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Thread is too long to read, but I do have one question I doubt has been asked.
Of those who are pontificating helmets are useless and shouldn't be worn, I'm interested in finding out what medical, first aid, or rescue training you have. Such training usually raises the awareness of what can happen and what such safety devices are good for or what they aren't good for.
L.J.
P.S. I like the air bag climbing suit idea.
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rockunderfoot
Jun 16, 2003, 1:49 PM
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Anyone happen to mention things like beer bottles?
I've seen plenty of them laying around smashed at
the bottom of crags where highways run past above
them. I think an aimlessly tossed bottle shattering on
a helmet, or even shards raining down from a bottle
that smashed higher up, would tend to draw less
blood.
Falls don't scare me, but other humans do.
If there's a chance someone's gonna chuck
something my way, the helmet goes on.
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neadamthal
Jun 16, 2003, 1:54 PM
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In reply to: Don't misconstrue the point. Here it is: Climbing is being sold as something that can be made safe.
i'm probably asking for trouble here, but that isn't THE point - it is A point (though, admittedly, widely held).
i agree that companies are trying to convince us that we can make our time on the rock 'safer', but i don't think (or haven't really taken notice of) companies that actually say 'use our helmet and you WILL be safe - regardless of what you are doing while wearing it'. maybe some co's are saying this - fraudulent advertizing if you ask me - but i haven't seen/noticed it.
i agree with you drkodos, that an activity can be described as either safe or unsafe. climbing is inherently an unsafe/risk-filled activity. however we all take precautions against those known risks. the rope and harnesses being the primary instances of this. the helmet (again, just another precaution) doesn't remove those risks (as some climbers seem to believe - when they're doing stuff they wouldn't without a helmet) but possibly reduces the severity of the outcome of a dangerous situation. that's why i wear one at least - to better my chances in the case of an accident/falling rock/etc.
let's see how long we can keep this thread going! 10 pages, bah, i wanna see 20 by week's end!
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climbersam
Jun 16, 2003, 2:05 PM
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Hey, why don't you buy my helmet?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=30107&item=3613063466
Ends
Jun-18-03 13:15:09 PDT
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jumpingrock
Jun 16, 2003, 4:07 PM
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In reply to: My attitude towarads helmets was formed after studding a tome published by the German Climbing association. It was a description of climbing accidents of all sorts accompanied by an analysis of the causes. According to this collection of data, a siginificant amount of accidents could have been avoided by wearing a helmet. On the other hand, I can only recall one type of accident caused because someone weared a helmet. Helmet untied slipping from the head of the leader and hitting the second. [..]
Thank you, Finally somebody gave me concrete proof that wearing a helmet can cause greater injury. Anybody want to buy a slightly used helmet?
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papounet
Jun 16, 2003, 4:30 PM
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dear drkodos,
The insurance data you refer to could be explained in many ways.
My favorite would be that many newcomers are entering the sport especially from gym, armed with their technical abiltiy ("gym-rat") and brand-new equipment, they venture into territory of too high a difficulty for their level and/or objective danger, thus are more prone to accident.
I would be quite interested in seing the correlation between number of years climbing, maximum level of climbing and severity of injuries
If you have read the various posts in this forum such as
Another tragic non helmet climbing accident
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=27497
or the death reports of Göran Kropp
http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/threadz/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB1&Number=42559&page=25&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=16980&forum=25&19
what have you concluded ?
(from the charter of this forum : "... Let's honor those people who've passed on by not making the same mistake!"
As you pointed out, climbers should be encouraged to look at all aspects of safety, and not believe for one second in a "golden" device.
I am not imposing on you my own view, and I respect your choice as you do wear a helmet in some cases, and don't in others. My own perception of when to wear a helmet is vastly more often (but not always) as I have seen 3 times helmets limiting injuries vs. 0 times the contrary.
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 16, 2003, 6:12 PM
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One last attempt before I take off to go climbing
My stance is that if a helmet is going to encourage you to climb in situations where you need it, then it might be better not to have it.
I 18 years I have never been hit by manmade rockfall, I maintain that is not luck. It is a result of the areas that I climb at and the people I choose to climb with. So many people advocating helmets say that they have been hit by rockfall or seen someone hit, why is that? I can’t remember the last time I yelled "ROCK", I bet you guys do it all the time. When your leading you are responsible for anything that gets knocked down (or drop), the rope doesn’t do anything by itself. I can’t believe how many people maintain that it wasn’t my fault, it was. Loose rock is only an issue if you knock it down on somebody.
Potreroed; I won’t climb on your routes because of the rockfall hazard.
Reno/jeff if people that wear helmets are more likely to be injured by rockfall then the following quote is not true "They *DO* make climbing safer." I think climbing equipment’s contribution to safety is vastly overstated. Otherwise I agree.
Weedy : stfu
Djmacedonas: the reason people in the mags don’t wear helmets is often because they are not beginner climbers and they know better more effective ways to stay safe
sindbad
Rockunderfoot:
I wouldn’t climb at a crag with turoids throwing stuff down on me.
You guys are an example of why I think helmets are often a bad idea
ljthawk
I had a WFR for a long time and I am going to take an EMT course shortly.
=-=-=-
Safety in climbing is a result of your decision making processes, it is not something that you can buy. If you think all the advances in climbing equipment has actually contributed to the overall public safety your dreaming. If a helmet really contributes to your safety then it is a good thing. If it doesn’t then your better off not wearing one.
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jumpingrock
Jun 16, 2003, 7:30 PM
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Ok this is my last attempt b4 I errr go work more :(. The fact is that some of use are not born with innate knowledge of rockclimbing and a full wealth of experiance. And chances are that we are going to make a mistake of some sort. Even if it is a small stupid one like dropping half of a quick draw. (Which I did a couple weeks ago) Or taking a bad fall in which we flip. We might not know that the route we are climbing is actually quite loose. We might not be able to see that there are some groups 5-10 pitches above us. We might make a bad placement. There are hundreds of little mistakes that we can make that could cause an accident. These are simple stupid mistakes that beginners will make REGARDLESS of how much professional training they recieve. Until you get the experiance yourself you simply can't avoid it. Therefore I contend that while a climber is trying to gain experiance it is "SAFER" to wear a helmet because these things have a far greater chance of happening to them. Not all of us are blessed with 20 yrs + experiance climbing and you have to start somewhere.
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fear
Jun 16, 2003, 8:13 PM
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Good God this is an absurd thread.....
Wear a Helmet if you want to. Don't if you dont. I really don't care.
I personally always wear my seatbelt in a car and always wear a helmet outside on the rock. I couldn't care less if the idiot in front of me on the road has his seatbelt on or not so why should I fault the guy two pitches up who doesn't have a helmet... It's not my head.
Your reasons are your own......
-Fear
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dirtineye
Jun 16, 2003, 9:34 PM
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A thread that is dealing with safety and saving lives is absurd... NOT.
Even (most of) the anti helmet guys are concerned with safety, they just want people to know that the helmet is not a magic force field. You still have to use your brain, which is after all, a potential safety device. Therefore, they are making a valuable contribution to this thread. (HEY drkodos, there's some logic for ye.)
If even a few people will take the advice to wear a helmet AND to proceed in climbing wisely, then this thread will have done a great service.
Wearing a helmet and climbing safely/wisely are NOT mutually exclusive. (sorry, more logic)
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drkodos
Jun 16, 2003, 9:37 PM
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Kodos here with kudos for dirtineye!
You win!
I give up!
No more fighting. I apologize for being an a-hole. It's hard to make apoint here without being attacked from six different sides, and then when responding to one point, another person mis-interprets.....oh well.
Peace.
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vtposer
Jun 16, 2003, 9:52 PM
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Just last weekend some Idiot dropped a biner from about 150 ft up and nearly missed me and my partners. He didnt even yell anything until the biner hit the ground. I wear A helmut not because Im worried about my mistakes but because Im worried about other peoples mistakes. I think its a good idea to wear a helmut when climbing at popular/crowded areas.
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dirtineye
Jun 16, 2003, 10:03 PM
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Um, were you being an a-hole?
Nothing to feel guilty about or apologise for! I'll accept and offer my own, but please don't let that get around. This is my secret identity-- I have a reputation elsewhere to keep up.
Your and several other's point that a helmet alone is not enough made this thread MUCH more valuable.
Now if we had a way to get the people that need to know this stuff to read it...
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pirwani
Jun 16, 2003, 10:52 PM
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I am the person moss1956 was referring to. We were rappelling down and he accidentally dislodged it when he was pulling the rope from the earlier pitch. Not his fault...just a freak accident that certainly would've been fatal had I not been wearing a helmet.
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raindog
Jun 16, 2003, 11:02 PM
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Can we have a group hug now?
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drkodos
Jun 16, 2003, 11:07 PM
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drkodos (extends arms)
(scene of people fleeing like in Godzilla movies.)
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hosgh
Jun 17, 2003, 1:29 AM
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:lol: :lol: :lol:
My mom is one of those people who thinks that a helmet emits a magical force field around ones self rendering the wearer invunerable :lol: :roll: :lol:
I think it is a good idea to wear a helmet at sketchy crags, you never know what might happen and a little extra protection never hurt, let me tell you a little story about forgoing a little extra protection.
My friend was playin a hockey game and decided to not wear wrist guards, wich are generally considered an "extra" piece of equipment. If any of you have ever played hockey you know how sharp the skates are, he had his left wrist slashed. Resulting in sever blood loss and a scar that looks like attempted suicide. The moral of the story, that extra equipment, well maybe might be inconvenient can save you alot of pain and maybe even death. If my friend had worn that extra piece of equipment his life would not have come that close to ending during that hockey game.
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aarona
Jun 17, 2003, 8:01 PM
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I took a 30 foot leader fall three weeks ago 5 pitches into an 8 pitch climb. Landed on my head and back. The helmet and my backpack took the impact (it was a low angle friction climb), and I was up and climbing in a few minutes (my shoulder and elbow took a beating). There is no doubt that without the helmet, I would probably have been knocked out or worse.
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sindbad
Jun 18, 2003, 6:08 AM
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alpnclmbr1:
Since you're having trouble recognizing a joke when it hits you on the head, maybe you should wear a helmet when reading rc.com. :lol:
Seriously though - I agree with your point, that if a helmet makes you take more chances or impairs your safety judgement, it's dangerous!! I - as I stated - forget that I'm wearing it; hence it don't do any harm... And it doesn't bother me wearing it or looking like an idiot. (Of course I take it off for posing in pictures).
peace
sindbad
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danpayne
Sep 23, 2004, 8:28 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: all I have to report is a skint knee, elbow and hand. I wish there were more accident reports like that and fewer serious head injuries and deaths. skint? what the f is that? not intelligent enough to use a dictionary or even spell check.... Personally, i wish there were more injuries and deaths in climbing. Thin out the gene pool a little. Too many people doing it, not taking it seriously enough. If more people get hurt and/or die, then less sh&theads that don't know what they're doing will be out at the cliffs. Listen MFer: I've worked SAR and pulled more dead bodies from debris than any one person should. I've seen first-hand what a mangled climber looks like after plunging headfirst 1000 feet into a boulder pile. I've dealt with it. Now take your helmet, and your dogma, and go play somewhere safe. If you want perceived risk, ride a roller coaster. Climbing is REAL risk. Stay on the fvcking porch if you're scared of the big dogs, okay? and let those of us with the balls/ovaries and the brains to survive through climbing do our thing.... try a little KY and I bet that helmet can protect your colon....
Let me get this straight. You have worked or work for Search and Rescue, and you have pulled out lots of dead bodies from climbing injuries, and you wish more deaths upon climbers? So, are you saying you've enjoyed pulling those bodies out. My girlfriend is an EMT whos seen some people die right in front of her, She doesn't wish there were more drunk driving accidents so fewer people would drunk drive. This logic you're using just doesnt make sense.
Edit: Wow, just saw the dates on this, and to anyone actually reading my posts. Im a pretty little princess.... (meaning I don't think anyone will actually read this)
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cosmokramer
Sep 23, 2004, 9:00 PM
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In reply to: Sure if you hit too hard your helment will do no good, so what? A bullet proof vest will not stop an armor piercing round either. Would you want the vest in a gunfight or not? If the folks that died from head injuries could come back to life and repeat their accident, I wonder how many would choose to wear a helment on the second go-round?
BRILLIANTLY PUT!
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danpayne
Sep 23, 2004, 9:15 PM
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Hey, I where a helmet while I'm skydiving, call me retarted if you want. It still makes me feel safer. Sure, if my pack acidentially has day old fish in it instead of a parachute, the helmet is now wearing me. But, If i fvck up a landing or lose consiousness and my cypres deployes. Ill be in better hands. Helmets, if they are good enough for skydivers, they're ok for climbers.
P.S. If you dont want to wear a helmet, don't. If you don't want to wear a harness, don't. Won't bother me a bit. So please don't bother me when I want to wear one.
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stoverstan
Sep 23, 2004, 10:57 PM
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. :D
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dingus
Sep 23, 2004, 11:09 PM
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Well, Kodos' comments in this thread are basically stupid but accurate. Helmets don't make you safer. They do reduce your exposure to head injury however.
Seems pretty basic to me.
Anyway, I once fell about 30 feet, hit a ledge at 25, broke my ankle, flipped upside down and smacked back first, head down, swinging into a dihedral. My head hit the corner first.
That's why I'm a lovable guy... like Kodos was!
Seriously, I was wearing my helmet during the fall and every halting step of the way down to the clinic.
Won't wear one boulering though. That would be just so beside the point, so uncool. Next thing you know, I'll be toting mattresses on my back, marching single file like the Queen of Hearts' Men.
DMT
DMT
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mrmarmot
Sep 27, 2004, 1:15 AM
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This old fart (havent climbed for almost 30 years), is amazed that this discussion continues.
Three of my climbing buddies were amongst the first to use the good ol Bell Toptex surfer's helmet for climbing as opposed to the older suspension type. This was so long ago (mid 60's) that there were't many even using the suspension helmets available at the time (this was in the Pacific NW).
Less than a month after I bought it three of us tokk a quick trip down the "Chislom Trail" on the North Side of Mt Hood in an avalanche - interesting story that but at some other time.
On the way down the snow went around an outcrop of rock. Observers noted that the snow kicked up a really cool backwards (uphill) wave - but freaked when they saw a body in it that showed it to be at least several feet high. I was the body and hit the rok head first. Sprained my neck but that was all.
I worked at the Alpine Hut (unsuccessful REI competitor) and put the helmet on display. For some reason we just couldn't seem to keep the things in stock for several months - and yeah I kept it its somplace out in the garage.
BRAIN BUCKETS/CRANIAL PROFALATCS WORK
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sherpajames
Oct 4, 2004, 12:34 AM
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Should we include all visitors to Arches national park on our bid to make this world a safer place from rock fall.
Crag climbers should pay attension, stay close to the wall or far enough out so they can dodge small rocks.
Multi-pitch climbs hell I wear a helmet (sometimes)
Ice climbing I'm not even going to say it.(helmet mandatory)
As for falling I can't see where it will help(I guess if your pushing your limits on ledge-e or moderete ground it might help)
Realistically it's our choise to make, but if we ware them in unrealistic places it might eventualy seem like a good idea to make a law requiring us to wear them all the time.
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killer_crag_move
Dec 13, 2004, 7:12 AM
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fuckin' idiots dont wear helmets. they have saved my dome plenty of times
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nonick
Dec 13, 2004, 7:26 AM
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a helmet saved my life. wear a helmet, it might save yours one day too.
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aerotrash
Dec 17, 2004, 4:44 AM
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Wearing a helmet because it may stop you for getting hurt on a fall is a risk I would be more willing to take than not wearing a helmet, where you are sure to be hurt or killed. And as far as climbing on loose rock, theres no way to really tell. Somebody could be climbing way above you and you can't see them and a piece of gear could fall on your head, or they could drop something. Holds chip and break off without warning. You could hit your bang the top of your head on something. Even large branches of trees after a great storm can fall off from the roots, taking chunks of rock with them. If you are from the Northeast, you may be familiar with some of the more recent hurricanes and storms. If you're worried about exposing the back of your head, just keep your head up straight and the impact will be reduced by the top of your head. And I always lean into the wall if I'm not anchored, because chances are it will just ricochet off the wall. If you don't want to wear one, don't wear one but don't mislead people into believing its safer or better without one.
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climbinginchico
Dec 17, 2004, 10:26 AM
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I hate helments. What the hell are they used for anyways?
Now, I love my helmet though.
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icekubes7
Dec 17, 2004, 2:47 PM
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DrKodos, I just can't understand why you would wish more climbers to die?????? What the hell are you talking about? I don't know about you, but all of my friends are climbers and I definitely don't want to see them die climbing. Anyways, that's just such a ridiculous comment (like most of yours have been on this post), I don't even know what else to say.
I wear my helmet and I truly don't feel it "impairs my better judgement."
It doesn't take much to seriously injure your head, and I like being able to use my head (it seems pretty important to me). I've been hit plenty of times on the head by smaller rocks that could have done some damage, but didn't because of my helmet. It's showed it's effectiveness to me many times. If you don't wear one, that's cool, I don't care, but why talk others out of wearing theirs? That's pretty stupid.
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j_ung
Dec 17, 2004, 3:22 PM
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In reply to: DrKodos, I just can't understand why you would wish more climbers to die?????? What the hell are you talking about? I don't know about you, but all of my friends are climbers and I definitely don't want to see them die climbing. Anyways, that's just such a ridiculous comment (like most of yours have been on this post), I don't even know what else to say. I wear my helmet and I truly don't feel it "impairs my better judgement." It doesn't take much to seriously injure your head, and I like being able to use my head (it seems pretty important to me). I've been hit plenty of times on the head by smaller rocks that could have done some damage, but didn't because of my helmet. It's showed it's effectiveness to me many times. If you don't wear one, that's cool, I don't care, but why talk others out of wearing theirs? That's pretty stupid.
Pssst... He can't hear you. Actually, he can, but he can't respond.
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dynosore
Dec 17, 2004, 3:25 PM
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Kodos, you claim you talked to three actuaries. Care to tell me which companies they are with? As small a population as climbers are, are we supposed to believe that they have helmet vs non helmet climbing tables for life insurance, etc? I can see it now "Do you wear a helmet when you climb?" "Yes" "OK, your rate is higher then" :wtf: Sure.
I talked to 3 psychologists, and after reading Kodo's posts they all agreed that Kodos has delusions of intelligence and superiority.
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keinangst
Dec 17, 2004, 3:27 PM
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But, baby, I can't FEEEL anything with a helmet on. :wink:
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j_ung
Dec 17, 2004, 4:14 PM
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In reply to: Kodos, you claim you talked to three actuaries. Care to tell me which companies they are with? As small a population as climbers are, are we supposed to believe that they have helmet vs non helmet climbing tables for life insurance, etc? I can see it now "Do you wear a helmet when you climb?" "Yes" "OK, your rate is higher then" :wtf: Sure. I talked to 3 psychologists, and after reading Kodo's posts they all agreed that Kodos has delusions of intelligence and superiority.
:lol: That's pretty funny, but really, he won't respond. drkodos was banned from the site over half a year ago. This thread is ancient. Everybody needs to stop posting like it just happened this morning.
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adnix
Dec 17, 2004, 6:06 PM
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In reply to: DrKodos, I just can't understand why you would wish more climbers to die?????? What the hell are you talking about? |
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