I think you care too much about what others are climbing or saying they are climbing.

I think you've mistaken the actual purpose of the ascent list. Though people often use it to see how hard some one else climbs, it's intended to help climbers find route-specific beta if they want it.

As j-ung said, it has value to members who may want beta on the particular climbs...

I have been contacted many times by users asking for beta (pro, rope length, descent, approach, etc...) on specific climbs. Showing who has climbed what is a usefull tool for users so they can send a PM to a user who has ascended a route.

I think you care too much about what others are climbing or saying they are climbing.

That is a BS comment that comes from people who wish they climbed harder than they do!

That is a BS comment that comes from people who wish they climbed harder than they do!

That is a BS comment that comes from people who wish they climbed harder than they do!

Why is there a hang dog option in the ascent list? Just because you have been on a route or climbed the first 5 feet before getting spanked, does not mean you did an ascent. This should not even be an option.

So how do we know the person actually did the route and can give good beta? It seems that someone who has actually sent the climb would have better beta than someone who hangdogged there way up it. There is a big difference in my opinion.

Hang dog means that you had to take on the rope, but you still sent the route/problem.

Hang dog means that you had to take on the rope, but you still sent the route/problem.

Why do people record ascents if they did not send the climb? So when people view there profile and climbing record it looks like they climb hard? So their name appears on the Top Ten list of difficult climbs? Why is there a hang dog option in the ascent list? Just because you have been on a route or climbed the first 5 feet before getting spanked, does not mean you did an ascent. This should not even be an option. How do others feel?

Some people use the ascent list as a diary, and keep track of every attempt on the route. I have suggested several times that hangdog and toprope ascents not be echoed to the Top Ten most difficult ascent lists, but no one has done anything about it.

-Jay

What if you're doing a multi-pitch and you swing leads? Onsite or TR? :?

:lol:

you click on the link in their profile, and it will show you their style of ascent. for example, looks like you got a redpoint on Ascent of Cowgirl Diplomacy in jacks canyon a couple of weekends ago .. good job.

The point is that you can not do both. If you hung on the rope you did NOT send the route/problem, unless you want to call it an "aid" ascent.

Curt

hang dog means you climbed the climb. just not in the best style. when you hang dog it means you used the rope for rest at a peice of gear or bolt and then continued free climbing the rest of the route. if you don't finish the climb it is called bailing and you never sent the climb.

Thank you, but back to topic. A hang dog should still not be considered an ascent. It would be similar to taking a helicopter to the top of Everest (if it were physically possible) and then clicking it as an ascent in your RC.com record. It is misleading and inaccurate.

Except that TR ascents are legitimate free climbing ascents--if done without weighting the rope, while hangdog ascents are not.

Curt

"Sending" means you didn't hang. You sent it free. If you hung, you did not send. Get it?

-Jay

True, but getting a clean TR on a hard route is a less significant accomplishment than redpointing it, so co-mingling TR ascents and redoints in the same ranking is inappropriate.

-Jay

your wrong curt. it is only aid if you used a peice of gear to make a move(i.e. not freeing all the moves). if you fall off above a bolt and then hang for 20 minutes and then continue to free climb the route you never aided any part of it you hang dogged. same on top rope you can hang dog up a top rope. your still free climbing and you still sent the climb you just never redpointed, pinkpointed ,yo yoed, flashed, or onsighted ....you hung your way up it or hang dogged.

Thank you, but back to topic. A hang dog should still not be considered an ascent. It would be similar to taking a helicopter to the top of Everest (if it were physically possible) and then clicking it as an ascent in your RC.com record. It is misleading and inaccurate.

no that wouldn't be a hang dog that would be an aid device so it would be aid climbing.

I think if you intend to win the "Gumby of the Year" award outright, you will have to do better than this. This alone will, however, get you into the top 10 most likely. Hahahahaha. If you hung on the rope and rested without lowering all the way to the ground--you did NOT free climb the route, you employed direct aid. Its just that simple. Now post again and tell me I am wrong. You may earn the GOTY yet.

Curt

Hangdogging is aid: the climber's weight is supported by anything other than his own purchase on the rock. Even if you do all the moves free, if you hang for a second, you have tainted your send. It cannot be all free if you rest on the rope at any time any more than resting on a bolt mid-way up on lead is a red point.
"Did you send it?"
"No. I got all the moves free but I took a hang. I'll get it clean next time. Then I'll try for the redpoint."

JV

i can not belive no one picked up on curts reply. if you hang and lower to the ground for the rest you can then precide to send the route. anyone know what this is called? and since you hung on the rope and top peice of gear (as you would with hang dogging) why is it not considerd a aid climb(like hang dogging using your own terms of aid and not the excepted meaning of aid).

to aid means to use a peice of gear for direct movment over the stone wich is not freeclimable by you. (not resting on a rope or peice of gear). look up some history people have been employing hangdogging as a ligitimit way a freeing a route for a long time. read some books. it is just a questionable ethicial debate between people who hangdog and people who redpoint onsight or flash.

and since when did sending something mean anything else other than making it to the top....you can send a aid line?

to aid means to use a peice of gear for direct movment over the stone wich is not freeclimable by you. (not resting on a rope or peice of gear).

hangdogging as a ligitimit way a freeing a route for a long time.

Only in your universe. Aid means supported by means other than your own hands, feet and other body parts, as in hanging on the rope, or grabbing a draw, or standing in a stirrup.

Only in sport climbing, not in traditional climbing. But this is beside your original point, which was that it's a send even if you rest on the rope, which is total BS. And yeah, you're right that if you lower to the ground after a hang, and climb all the moves free without resting, it's a 'send.' But again, that's not what you are trying to tell us.

JV

You represent the worst type of idiot on these boards. Not only do you have no idea what you are talking about, but when numerous experienced climbers give you the correct answer, you are even too stupid to realize it.

If you fall on your gear and then lower to the ground to rest, you can still "send" the route as a free ascent if (and only if) you then procede to climb the entire pitch without pulling on--or resting on any of your gear, including the rope. That is the definition of free climbing a route. Hangdogging (the way you are describing it) where you rest on the rope part way up the climb and then continue to climb the rest of the pitch after hanging is an "aid" ascent of the pitch. It is really just that simple. You do NOT need to make upward progress on aid gear in order to invalidate a free ascent.

Curt

yes aid means supported by other means than your own body to pass over a section of stone. but if you hang and restart by climbing below the point at wich you hang and make it you freed all the moves thus hang dogging the route not aid climbing it.

and yes it was common practice when backing up pitons or just resting before a really run out section to hang before sending of on lead. i know a person who climbed in that time erra. and have read about it in some books.

and yes it was common practice when backing up pitons or just resting before a really run out section to hang before sending of on lead. i know a person who climbed in that time erra. and have read about it in some books.

you people really have no clue. and i will try to get the name of some of the books for you in the next week. they were books from the 70's and 80's and they were history (way before the 80's) on the development of moderen climbing (aid climbing and free climbing and how they developed and why) due to groups of climbers from diffrent areas around europe who were at each others throughts because of ethics. very boring books i might add. plus i learnd alot on terminoligy from a guy that has been climbing since at least the 50's maybee even longer he is well into the 70's if not 80's now. i do know vanila ropes and pitons and ladders were cutting edge when he started. and was a regular at seneca rocks. he also saw the new wave climbers freeing all those old aid lines and making up roles like hang dogging is not allowed and is not pure (but that is why they have since made new terminoligy) and that is why somethings are still thought to be not acceptable. hang dogging is not right or wrong you are still freeing the route so it is not aid (even though it is close to aiding) it is a term used for how you sent the route. just like yo yoing is a term and it is getting explained and not used...if you know what yo yoing is you should know what hangdogging is. since that term is an old term that was acceptable method of the'new way to send' most people don't know it.

you use direct aid to rest only and freeclimb all the moves. A0=pulling on gear to make a move...therfore hangdogging is a 5.whatever climb it is a free climb.

well that doesn't change the meaning of the two terms and what they actually mean.

You are utterly alone in taking this position. You can search all you want, but you will never find any support for it in any climbing book from the '70's. There weren't that many and I read them all. In fact, most of them are still on my shelf.

Nor does your making up new definitions to fit your skewed semantics. You are wrong: hangdogging is and always will be aid. That is why one brief hang means that you did not climb it free, even if you did all the moves. If you want the 'send,' you're going to have start at the bottom and try again.

JV

do a site search look up all the terms exspecially 'send' it means to complete a climb succesfully...what does climb mean? it means hangdogging...

do a site search look up all the terms exspecially 'send' it means to complete a climb succesfully...what does climb mean? it means hangdogging, aidclimbing, top ropeing, and ect...(even alpine climbing) you can send whatever you climb in what ever style you use. look up aid climbing to make progress with a piece of gear. just because you hang somewhere does not mean you used gear to make progress over the stone.

do a site search look up all the terms exspecially 'send' it means to complete a climb succesfully...what does climb mean? it means hangdogging, aidclimbing, top ropeing, and ect...(even alpine climbing) you can send whatever you climb in what ever style you use.

look up aid climbing to make progress with a piece of gear. just because you hang somewhere does not mean you used gear to make progress over the stone.

how is this even an argument? this is even simpler than the Scopes Monkey Trial or Bush vs. Kerry--hangdogging is not sending. maybe you are thinking of "french-freeing" where one uses a piece of gear to move quickly past hard sections on long walls...or maybe you are debating between freeclimbing (without aiding) versus aid-climbing. Either way, hangdogging is not a "send" of a route.
let's examine the word--hangdogging...hang means to hang on the rope, to NOT be held on the wall by your own power...dogging means to try and try and try a move again, and after each failure, rest back on the rope. Hopefully, you will eventually be able to do the move you are "dogging" but that doesn't mean you can claim to have sent the route--by that logic, i could climb half a hard route one day, go train for a season to get strong, then come back and get on the route again--i could rap in right to where i was--finish the route and call it a send...yeah...
i dont know where this idea of hangdogging is just as good as leading and sending, but i have heard a lot of it up here in the great wasteland...i think that it all stemmed from some guy with a macho ego who, when his freind asked him if he did a route, he said yes--even if it was just toprope hangdogging...this inflation needs to stop--if you have not led a route without hangs, falling, stepping on a bolt, grabbing a draw, etc...you have not sent it.

I think hangdogging your way up a route is a successful ascent not clean, and not one to brag about though, unless you are an aid climber, because if you use the rope to rest and then continue up the route haven't you used it to help your progress?

I think hangdogging your way up a route is a successful ascent not clean, and not one to brag about though, unless you are an aid climber, because if you use the rope to rest and then continue up the route haven't you used it to help your progress?

But i'll just agree to disagree with everyone that disagrees with me on this.

Yeah. That's what I said.

Yes, you used the rope to rest at a place where if you did not have a rope or protection to hang from, you could not have rested. That is precisely why hangdogging is aid, not free. To call it free, you may not weight the rope or any gear.
JV

If you think that hangdogging your way to the top of a route is a successful ascent, then you've missed the entire point of the sport.

In my book the point is to have fun. A day with nature. A day outside. A person hang dogging is still climbing whether it be "clean" a "send" or even "free climbing." If they end the day with a smile then they have not "missed the entire point of the sport" as you so state.

A person hangdogging isn't climbing; he's hanging. I don't know a single climber who attaches any value to a "hangdog ascent," if you'll pardon the expression. The goal in free climbing has always been a free ascent. Hangdog tactics were eventually adpoted as an alternative to yoyoing to more efficiently rehearse moves in order to eventually free climb the route. A hangdog ascent has never been considered anything more than rehearsal, and if you or mrme don't get that then indeed you are missing the point of the sport.

-Jay

I will say that hangdogging is not an ascent to be proud of, but it is not one to be ashamed of either.

An Aid climber who stands in aiders all day doesn't ascend it free, and literally hangs the whole way up, but it's still an ascent.

Looking down on anothers accomplishments is a bit snobish and elitest don't ya think ???? :?

My point is that it's basically nothing; that is, it's not a recognized successful ascent of any kind. It's not a free ascent...

On some of my harder projects I was pretty happy the first time I hangdogged to the anchors because it meant that I could do all the moves free.

Ummm... Jay,



And



Are diametrically opposed to each other, yet you stated both in the same thread.

Even a hangdog is a free ascent, as it was freeclimbed. I think you should say it is not a "clean" ascent. If a climber does all moves free on a route, he has climbed it free. If a climber climbs all moves free without weighting the rope, then it is a clean free ascent. Do you agree with that statement ???

There is a difference bewtween insulting a climb and yelling take at every bolt/piece, and doing almost all the climb and falling just once just before getting to the anchors/belay/end. Both are considered "hangdogs", but still a bit different in terms of accomplishment wouldn't ya say. :wink:

I think you care too much about what others are climbing or saying they are climbing.

The definition of free climbing a route is not doing each move free. It's doing all the moves free without falling or resting on the rope.

Edit: Incidentally, I don't know why this thread has been moved into Community. It's turned into a substantive discussion about the definition of "free climbing." Probably should be in General, at least this part of it should be.

But if you hung, you have used the gear.

true, but getting a clean redpoint on a hard route is a less significant accomplishment than onsighting it , so co-mingling redpointing ascents and onsights in the same ranking is inappropriate.

get it?

like jt was quick to rule out top ropeing as a viable style of ascent to record.

make the grade 5.16 on the theoreticial route were discusing and you can see how important hangdoging is to redpointing...

Read the previous page. :roll:

As far as aid or free goes, could it be neither? ;) You're not ascending using gear, and you're not ascending without resting on gear...

That is an an idiotic statement, since the definition of redpointing implies that you've hangdogged the route (or, less commonly at the higher levels, top roped it).

-Jay

how is this even an argument? this is even simpler than the Scopes Monkey Trial or Bush vs. Kerry--hangdogging is not sending.

Even a hangdog is a free ascent, as it was freeclimbed. I think you should say it is not a "clean" ascent. If a climber does all moves free on a route, he has climbed it free. If a climber climbs all moves free without weighting the rope, then it is a clean free ascent. Do you agree with that statement ???

Agreed Jay... But it belongs in S+Q, as the original query was asking about the Asents Feature of the RDB, and the hair splitters took it all over the place.

I'll just ask everyone to stop bashing the new climbers, as that was the reason why this was moved. And Jay, you don't have to be so abrasive... Practice your people skills brutha.

Agreed Jay... But it belongs in S+Q, as the original query was asking about the Asents Feature of the RDB, and the hair splitters took it all over the place.

I'll just ask everyone to stop bashing the new climbers, as that was the reason why this was moved. And Jay, you don't have to be so abrasive... Practice your people skills brutha. :wink:

No it doesn't It simply mean you have tried the route and failed, Not that you hangdogged it.

Redpoint - n/vb. a clean ascent with no falls, placing protection while climbing.

No where in that does it say you had to have hangdogged the route or even reached the anchors at all.

Agreed Jay... But it belongs in S+Q, as the original query was asking about the Asents Feature of the RDB, and the hair splitters took it all over the place.

It's nothing to be ashamed of, you're right. My point is that it's basically nothing; that is, it's not a recognized successful ascent of any kind. It's not a free ascent, nor is it a successful ascent of an aid route. It's never been considered an end in itself.


Yes, but hopefully it's an ascent of an established aid line. Otherwise, it's basically nothing. Why not just prop a ladder up against the wall and all happy that you "ascended" it all the way to the top.


Adam, how much can we dumb down the sport? Hangdogging has never been considered an accomplishment of any significance. I've hangdogged more than most people on the site, but I've never considered it anything more than what I wrote above; it's rehearsal, a way to learn and improve your climbing. But a "hangdog ascent" has never been considered any sort of successful ascent. And if mrme thinks it is than he has missed the whole point of free climbing.

On some of my harder projects I was pretty happy the first time I hangdogged to the anchors because it meant that I could do all the moves free. But I never considered it any sort of success; quite the contrary, it was just the beginning of the project. However, mrme, which is who we've been arguing with before people started to take our comments out of context, mistakenly believes such an "ascent" to be a "free ascent." It is that belief that which I was referring to when I said he'd missed the point of the sport; that is, believing that handogging was the equivalent of a successful free ascent.

-Jay

There is no contradiction. The definition of free climbing a route is not doing each move free. It's doing all the moves free without falling or resting on the rope. Most modern routes are rated for the overall difficulty of the route. I know a 12d route here in Socal that has no single move on it harder than 11c. It also has no single move on it easier than 11b, and this goes on for 90 feet. So, although any 11c climber could do each move and get to the top if he could take enough hangs, it takes 12d endurance to free climb the route, not just the individual moves.


No, I don't, and if you read the entire thread, you'll see that not a single experienced climber who has posted -- inlcuding Ambler, Curt, Louie Anderson, jv, and Ronnie Miller -- agrees with you. A hangdog is not a free ascent. Once you've fallen or rested on the rope you have failed to free climb the route. You've relied on the gear. At best you've got an A0 ascent. The phrase you propose, "clean free ascent," is redundant. Free climbing implies that you've gotten the route "clean" (ie, without falling or hanging).


That's like saying it's a bigger accomplishent to fail an exam by 1 point than it is to fail it by 50 points. Either way, you haven't passed the exam.

Edit: Incidentally, I don't know why this thread has been moved into Community. It's turned into a substantive discussion about the definition of "free climbing." Probably should be in General, at least this part of it should be.

-Jay

Maybe you'll believe Lynn Hill. The following quote is from her 1994 article in the American Alpine Journal about free climbing the Nose:

"Despite intense heat, I was eventually able to climb this pitch with only one fall and felt confident that it would be possible to free climb it under cooler conditions."

Above, she clearly distinguishes between an ascent with one fall and a free climb.

If you still want to claim that a hangdogging is free climbing, I would suggest that you take it up with Lynn Hill. She'll be happy to know that she free climbed the Nose on an earlier attempt.

-Jay

she did but she wanted to lead every picth without falling and she wouldn't be happy untill she did that for herself. it has nothing to do with what one word means another thats why they have dictionarys.

if i remember right i think it was peter croft or someone who climb the astroman or something like that. he free solod without a rope or gear and there was a sling hanging down in the middle of the crux. he decided to go back and solo it agian without the sling hanging down to truly free solo it. did he truely free solo it the first time he climbed it without gear?

There are no onsights on the top ten hardest sport climbs list. At that level no one on this board onsights.

Get it?

-Jay

now your going to aurge the opisite about redpointing and onsighting because most people can redpoint and work a route for months or years and still manage to only onsight single digits?

oh i am better than someone else because i can redpoint one 12 though i can only normally make it up 8's or 9's. because you can onsight only to 5.11 means jack because i have one 12 that i can do.

that whole senerio makes no sense. thats like takeing away that 5.11 climbers acomplishments. because onsighting is a purer way of climbing than redpoint. just like redpointing is purer than hangdogging.

Another liar. Some of you around here need to learn to argue with personal integrity. Quote where I said that top roping was not "a viable style of ascent to record," or admit that you lied.


That is an an idiotic statement, since the definition of redpointing implies that you've hangdogged the route (or, less commonly at the higher levels, top roped it).

-Jay

No. It cannot be free because to equate it to free climbing dilutes, perverts really, the definition of free climbing. When I was learning to climb, we looked at it this way: If you climbed a route as if you had no rope, it was a free ascent. The rope was only there to catch you if you fell. The instant you fell, grabbed pro, or asked for tension, it was no longer a free ascent. You had used the aid of the rope to rest. Aid: to help; support.

This is a semantic problem I think because younger climbers tend to learn in a gym where sport climbing ethics prevail. It's ok to take tension in sport climbing. It is not ok to take tension in traditional climbing: you climb until you fall. Also, younger climbers tend to think of aid as something you do only on a big wall with aiders and huge racks. That is a new idea, not an old one. As Robbins defined it, even taking a rest is aid. The reason for that is because if you did not have the rope there, you could not rest, you would fall.

Jim Erickson was a climber of the 1970's who practiced a very pure, highly ethical style of climbing. It was said that if he fell on a route, he bailed and never went back. He had blown his chance to climb it free because the challenge of climbing it for the first time without a fall was gone. I don't know anyone else who held themselves to that kind of standard, and while I admire him, I don't think it is realistic for most of us to even aspire to that kind of purity. But his was the purest expression of the traditional climbing ethic that I know of, and it helps to illustrate the point.

The point being, that any physical reliance on the rope while free climbing is aid, even if you are "just" resting. The climber cannot claim a legitimate free ascent of a route until climbing it entirely without resting on the rope or gear.

JV