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krga20
Sep 16, 2004, 3:45 AM
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I was wondering if anyone has any input about their experiences / training for harder 12's. It seems I've hit the glass ceiling...
thanks!
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mungeclimber
Sep 16, 2004, 4:43 AM
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I don't climb at that level, but I know for a fact that some folks I've know about and also some that I've read about who ended up weight training to supplement the over trained climbing muscles, it really helped both for endurance, power, and reducing injuries (depending on how they weight trained).
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kalcario
Sep 16, 2004, 4:43 AM
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Train endurance so you can do v3/4 pumped.
But wait...what if you already have so much endurance that you're *not getting* pumped on the easy sections of the 12+'s? Then all you have to be able to do is v3/4 moves off the deck without your crash pads and spotters...
sport climbing begins at 12c...12+ is EASY
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fluxus
Sep 16, 2004, 8:44 PM
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In reply to: I was wondering if anyone has any input about their experiences / training for harder 12's. It seems I've hit the glass ceiling... thanks!
its difficult to offer help without specific information. For example, what does your pyramid look like how many 12bs, 12as, 11ds, 11cs, and 11bs have you done. and how reciently have you done them? How many tries does 12b take you now? What is your on-sight level?
also What is your current bouldering level, flash and with multiple tries?
How many days a week are you climbing?
What type of 12c/d are you trying to do?
How long have you been climbing?
that sort of thing
cheers
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rockprodigy
Sep 16, 2004, 8:46 PM
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d's are always hard. Just go right into 13a, then you can work on all the easy routes that are overated so the FA can hang that magic number on them.
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slablizard
Sep 16, 2004, 9:24 PM
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That's what I call a motivational speak man! :twisted:
Agree!
In reply to: sport climbing begins at 12c...12+ is EASY |
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bvb
Sep 16, 2004, 9:32 PM
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In reply to: That's what I call a motivational speak man! :twisted: Agree! In reply to: sport climbing begins at 12c...12+ is EASY
posuers. to me, "easy" means i flash it, or do it with little effort in two or three tries.
go to rumney and try any 12c or d on the waimea wall, or perhaps "monsters of the id", then report back to us all on your experiences.
pfffffffft
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superjosh
Sep 16, 2004, 9:39 PM
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I second kalcario. Climbing hard 5.12 is all about climbing V3 and V4 when your pumped. Learn to do that and you'll be all set.
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slablizard
Sep 16, 2004, 9:39 PM
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TR it first and work every move as you would do in any other route. If you can't do a move after maybe 5 tries, skip it and try the rest of the route, you might find out that you can do 40% of the route the first time.
Personally I get pretty obsessed with routes if I like them.
Keep trying, setting everitime the goal of going one move higher...or more if you can. Try the clippings also on TR. Pretend you are clipping a quick and the rope.
Try to find the best feet sequence, don't just pump your way up campusing. You'll need all your energies. Rest! Every restpoint you find...use it!It's climbing, not a marathon
Most of all...FOCUS! It's amazing what the right mental energy can do. I prefer quiet when I climb, better than the " Good job! Come on You can do it" kind of encouragement that actually deconcentrates me.
Having the right partner is crucial too. There should be a little healthy competitiveness bethween you and your partner. That means avoid if you can somebody that is a lot less stronger (or motivated to climb hard ) than you.
Other than that, obviously you need to have the base power to move on the rock.
In reply to: I was wondering if anyone has any input about their experiences / training for harder 12's. It seems I've hit the glass ceiling... thanks! |
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slablizard
Sep 16, 2004, 9:43 PM
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Believe me, I'll love to go Rumney! When I say motivational I mean that should push you ( and me ) to try harder! Not that is actually easy.
Even if I'm sure 12c is easy if you climb 13s
Very subjective.
ANd yes, I found some 12b very easy for me, since they were exactly in my climbing style...
No posing intended.
In reply to: In reply to: That's what I call a motivational speak man! :twisted: Agree! In reply to: sport climbing begins at 12c...12+ is EASY posuers. to me, "easy" means i flash it, or do it with little effort in two or three tries. go to rumney and try any 12c or d on the waimea wall, or perhaps "monsters of the id", then report back to us all on your experiences. pfffffffft |
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rockprodigy
Sep 16, 2004, 9:51 PM
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In reply to: I second kalcario. Climbing hard 5.12 is all about climbing V3 and V4 when your pumped. Learn to do that and you'll be all set.
I disagree with this, for me at least. I suppose there are some 12c/d routes that have no moves harder than V4, but many have harder cruxes. For me, I've always found that if I can do the crux, I can do the route...as the great Yaniro once said: "If you can't do the moves, then there is nothing to endure."
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slablizard
Sep 16, 2004, 10:06 PM
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That's cool, but you also have to get to the move...you need endurance to do that .Especially on lead.
Unless the crux is at the second bolt..
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therealdeal
Sep 16, 2004, 10:21 PM
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In reply to: d's are always hard. Just go right into 13a, then you can work on all the easy routes that are overated so the FA can hang that magic number on them.
i would agree...just go ahead and chase the number.
rifle is the perfect example...many of the 12ds are harder than a number of the 13bs...
if sport climbing starts at 12c i'm bummed...'cause i'm even worse than i thought!
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slablizard
Sep 16, 2004, 10:29 PM
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Don't be bummed. Be stronger ! :twisted:
In reply to: In reply to: d's are always hard. Just go right into 13a, then you can work on all the easy routes that are overated so the FA can hang that magic number on them. i would agree...just go ahead and chase the number. rifle is the perfect example...many of the 12ds are harder than a number of the 13bs... if sport climbing starts at 12c i'm bummed...'cause i'm even worse than i thought! |
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climbsomething
Sep 16, 2004, 10:47 PM
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In reply to: if sport climbing starts at 12c i'm bummed...'cause i'm even worse than i thought!
Oh, and I know a guy who's going straight from 12c to 13b. I think he's finally going to leave "moderate" and it only took him 20 years :P
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chimp-chimp
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Sep 16, 2004, 11:55 PM
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I personally don't believe in the whole pyramid system that many climbers adhere to. I don't think you need to have a certain number of 11a's under your belt before you can begin to work 11b's (or whatever grade!). If you want to climb harder, you could try running laps on something that you can just barely send (something right at your limit). It will certainly help with your endurance.
I dunno if anyone mentioned this yet, but bouldering always helps me to break plateaus in my route climbing.
Also, try and take a road trip. A few weeks outside, climbing almost everyday skyrocketed my climbing.
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rockprodigy
Sep 17, 2004, 12:51 AM
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I think when you're at the 12+ level vs. the 11- level, the pyramids become much more applicable.
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alpnclmbr1
Sep 17, 2004, 1:03 AM
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For myself, given when I started climbing. I went to 12b with a trad ethic of no hanging and a few tries at most. (on routes or boulders)
All it took to move to 12c/d was discarding that ethic and working the heck out of a route.
Don't know where you are at right now, but if your project level has topped out. I would work on my OS level for a while, then do a project.
If you do not know every hand and foothold on the route, you do not have it wired.
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actionfigure
Sep 17, 2004, 1:07 AM
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In reply to: d's are always hard. Just go right into 13a, then you can work on all the easy routes that are overated so the FA can hang that magic number on them.
Yeah, just start projecting 13a and if you commit your time to it you'll be doing hard 12's very soon. Careful not to injure tendons though.
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benpullin
Sep 17, 2004, 1:41 AM
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In reply to: I personally don't believe in the whole pyramid system that many climbers adhere to.
I definitely don't think that you have to have a certain number of ascents at one grade to move on to the next, but there is something to be said for having a wide base. IMO, it makes you a better climber.
It's nice to be able to send a hard project at your local crag, but if you don't have a good base, you'll have to climb significantly lower grades at crags you're not used to.
I couldn't agree more that going on long road trips does wonders for your climbing.
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fluxus
Sep 17, 2004, 4:34 AM
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In reply to: i would agree...just go ahead and chase the number. rifle is the perfect example...many of the 12ds are harder than a number of the 13bs...
Which ones? :shock:
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fluxus
Sep 17, 2004, 4:55 AM
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In reply to: I personally don't believe in the whole pyramid system that many climbers adhere to. I don't think you need to have a certain number of 11a's under your belt before you can begin to work 11b's (or whatever grade!). If you want to climb harder, you could try running laps on something that you can just barely send (something right at your limit). It will certainly help with your endurance. I dunno if anyone mentioned this yet, but bouldering always helps me to break plateaus in my route climbing. Also, try and take a road trip. A few weeks outside, climbing almost everyday skyrocketed my climbing.
I am suprised by a lot of what I am reading here. at least two people saying don't do a pyramid, others saying work the heck out of the route, others saying skip a grade. Is this for real?
As for the above post. No you don't have to have a certain # of 11a's under your belt, but a pyramid is not a law, its merely a great tool to become a solid climber, to make lasting gains in ability, to make sure you get enough experience to keep progressing, to set and meet goals, to quantify your experience, to learn strengthes and weaknesses, to plan each day of climbing and training, to know what you should be capable of at any point in time. But beyond these trivial points a pyramid is useless.
of course I have a long track record of not letting climbers go to the next level until they have finished the one below it because they go throught their pyramids faster that way, they feel like they have earned the next level, and it makes them hungry.
Running laps on something at or near your limit will not improve endurance. Routes of that high an intensity will keep you well in your local anaerobic range if you try to lap down on them. In fact its not likely that many climbers could do laps on something of that high an intensity.
cheers
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kalcario
Sep 17, 2004, 5:19 AM
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* I suppose there are some 12c/d routes that have no moves harder than V4, but many have harder cruxes. For me, I've always found that if I can do the crux, I can do the route...as the great Yaniro once said: "If you can't do the moves, then there is nothing to endure."*
I would prefer if my opinions were not shot down in flames by people who have freed El Cap with no falls...please refrain from posting thank you
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curt
Sep 17, 2004, 5:31 AM
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In reply to: * I suppose there are some 12c/d routes that have no moves harder than V4, but many have harder cruxes. For me, I've always found that if I can do the crux, I can do the route...as the great Yaniro once said: "If you can't do the moves, then there is nothing to endure."* I would prefer if my opinions were not shot down in flames by people who have freed El Cap with no falls...please refrain from posting thank you
We are talking about trad routes here, right? Not sport wanking homo poseur "I wish I could really climb" routes, aren't we?
Curt
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hardmanknott
Sep 17, 2004, 7:07 AM
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Let your motivation dictate what kind of pyramid you should or shouldn't have.
<gratuitous spray alert>
My first redpoint was a scary 10b--onsight.
The next hardest route was an 11d.
The next hardest route after that was a 12c.
Since I'm an old fart, I then throttled back a bit and settled for a 12d.
So how's that for a pyramid?
gratuitous spray alert>
I think the best advice is to find the method that works for you.
I only had some success because I obsessively worked the routes
into oblivion. I think it would be better to be able to onsight hard routes.
That's where technique comes in -- and is something I still suck at.
I think it's smarter (and certainly more fun) to do a bunch of routes
below your limit while you get stronger and learn technique.
By far the most important thing is to not get injured.
I have been extremely careful to avoid any finger injuries,
and have had a blast climbing nothing but easy trad routes for
months on end. That's also why my name is Hardman Knott.
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maxdacat
Sep 17, 2004, 10:43 AM
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A good book is "How to Climb 5.12"
Not sure who it's by.
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tripperjm
Sep 17, 2004, 11:51 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: That's what I call a motivational speak man! :twisted: Agree! In reply to: sport climbing begins at 12c...12+ is EASY posuers. to me, "easy" means i flash it, or do it with little effort in two or three tries. go to rumney and try any 12c or d on the waimea wall, or perhaps "monsters of the id", then report back to us all on your experiences. pfffffffft
BWHAHAHAHAHA!!!1
I'm going to have to go with Kalcario on this one..... SPORT CLIMBING BEGINS AT 12C!
bvb, When was the last time you were in Rumney? HAHA!!!1 Living in the past is for "posuers", You are only as good as your last route!
me thinks you need to get out a little more, big fish in a little pond. HAHAHA!
In reply to: Oh, and I know a guy who's going straight from 12c to 13b. I think he's finally going to leave "moderate" and it only took him 20 years :P
13b HAHA! NO F&CKING WAY!!!!!! That is a fluff grade! There maybe a bunch of johnny come latelys" that are calling the route in question 13b, let me tell you.... real guy's including myself, who put up the route, call it a standard middle of the road 13a! How can anyone who's hardest rp is 12c (which you stated and I know) rate a route 3 grades harder than their hardest rp???? Just because it seems hard now, does not mean the route got harder..... It just means... we are not as young or strong as we once were.
In reply to: We are talking about trad routes here, right? Not sport wanking homo poseur "I wish I could really climb" routes, aren't we? Curt
It would be best, given the recent reports of your trad preformance at the Forks, for you to stick to what you still can do and know about, pebble wrestling. Getting smoked on 10's and easy 11's, kinda undermines any credibility you had.
AHAHAHAHAHA!!!1
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clarki
Sep 17, 2004, 12:29 PM
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number chasing wankers, all y'all. :lol:
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photon
Sep 17, 2004, 1:50 PM
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curt wrote:
"We are talking about trad routes here, right? Not sport wanking homo poseur "I wish I could really climb" routes, aren't we? "
No we're talking about how hilarious it would be to watch a real macho trad hardman like yourself attempt a .12c/d sport wanking homo poseur route. After you get to the first bolt pumped and realize it's going to be a 9 pitch route at best, your excuse chain starts spilling out the pie hole, "Sport climbing sucks, its gay, give me a crack anyday, I boulder V10, besides I couldn't get all the sand stuck out of my "crack" this morning. "
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rockprodigy
Sep 17, 2004, 2:50 PM
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In reply to: I am suprised by a lot of what I am reading here. at least two people saying don't do a pyramid, others saying work the heck out of the route, others saying skip a grade. Is this for real?
I, for one, was being sarcastic, but I guess that wasn't clear enough. It took me 2 years to get from 12b to 12c and two more to go from 12c and another two to get to 13a, so I can't seriously recommend skipping from 12b to 13a. However, I have found many so-called 13a's to be easier than some 12d's.
I personally live by the pyramids...I usually won't even try a certain grade until I have RP'd two routes at the grade below it. That probably holds me back in some cases, but it's not like I'm running out of routes to do!
In reply to: I would prefer if my opinions were not shot down in flames by people who have freed El Cap with no falls...please refrain from posting thank you
I won't refrain from posting, but I'll refrain from responding to you,... oh, oops, sorry.
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therealdeal
Sep 17, 2004, 2:59 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: i would agree...just go ahead and chase the number. rifle is the perfect example...many of the 12ds are harder than a number of the 13bs... Which ones? :shock:
Philibister...harder than Vision Thing or Poetic...or the Beast...
Hand me the Canteen Boy (or whatever that pissy thing is called) solid 13a..
there are others....
anyway, that was a off the cuff remark for emphasis, and of course any ratings are subjective, but I've found lots of 12ds around are really stiff...ya know that same thing happens in older trad area b/w 5.9 and 5.10....I've been on some 5.9s that are like...whoa!
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rockprodigy
Sep 17, 2004, 3:01 PM
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Ever try Dickheads @ Black & Tan?? Holy $hit, that's gotta be the hardes "12d" in the universe...I consider it 13a for the sake of my pyramid.
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boadman
Sep 17, 2004, 3:02 PM
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Projecting a route that takes more than 5 or 6 tries doesn't make you a better climber, it just makes you better at that particular route. If you pay a little attention to the pyramid plan, you will progress all around, especially if you mix it up with different styles of rock and climbing. I went from onsighting 11a to 12b in about a year maintaining the 2 practice to one performance days ratio and a broad pyramid. I try not to work routes much more than 2 or three letter grades harder than my hardest onsight.
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therealdeal
Sep 17, 2004, 3:34 PM
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In reply to: Projecting a route that takes more than 5 or 6 tries doesn't make you a better climber, it just makes you better at that particular route. If you pay a little attention to the pyramid plan, you will progress all around, especially if you mix it up with different styles of rock and climbing. I went from onsighting 11a to 12b in about a year maintaining the 2 practice to one performance days ratio and a broad pyramid. I try not to work routes much more than 2 or three letter grades harder than my hardest onsight.
I disagree totally...while on certain routes I think you can project yourself into being weaker...and you need to mix in days of just climbing w/ days on the proj....but stepping it up and trying stuff way above my head has, for me, always led to my greatest leaps in ability.
The first winter I spent at the VRG I didn't know what the hell I was doing...couldn't hardly make it bolt to bolt on anything...but lo! and behold, all of a sudden that spring I had technique to go along with power...
That's the thing...projecting teaches you HOW to make hard moves, as much as it gets you stronger...it less difficult climbing seem that much easier..
of course that's just me...and again, to reiterate what Mike said...there is a big difference b/w making the transition from 12+ to 13 and 11+ to 12...and forget about 13+ to 14...
can you tell i'm not psyched to be at work today?
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chimp-chimp
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Sep 17, 2004, 3:34 PM
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Fluxus, referring to your not letting climbers climb the next grade until they have solidified their current grade of choice:
First of all, I think this way just makes you a really good climber at that level, not necessarally a better climber all together. And it takes a goddamn long time!
I guess this just seems like a lot of work to me. And not a whole lot of fun. Which is also critically important. I have partners, whom I completely respect, who swear by the pyramid system, and it works for them. Awesome hard 13 climbers. However, I know a lot of other friends, myself included, who have not been limited by their avoidance of this system at all. (My friend is nodding his head behind me, in agreement. He says he'd still be climbing 12b.)
This forum is all a matter of opinion, and it seems to me that so many of us find sucess in achieving higher grades in many different ways.
As for running laps as I suggested...
Well, it works for me. And I have to say, what's also critical for me is to have fun doing what I'm doing! If all did was climbing "homework", I'd be gauranteed to start to dislike climbing. I think I'd still be climbing 11's if I climbed with the pyramid technique.
I completely respect your system, I just disagree that it is the only way to become a better climber.
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chrisparedes
Sep 17, 2004, 3:42 PM
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Don't get caught up in the numbers game. It's stupid and takes the fun out of climbing when you worry how you are gonna break the 12c/d barrier. Who cares. Just train until you can climb it.
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supersonick
Sep 17, 2004, 3:53 PM
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One way to approach your problem is to just take up bouldering for a while. The theory being that increasing your maximum strength will make 12d moves feel easier. I'd always heard this was Jerry Moffat's approach - he'd just get dead strong so that easier moves simply didn't tire him out.
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hardmanknott
Sep 17, 2004, 4:07 PM
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This thread (especially page 2) reminds me of the good old days on rec.climbing! :twisted:
I really like the part about being only as good as your last route.
Indeed, if you're going to spray, always remember these important points:
1. Be damn sure the routes are solid for the grade. :oops:
2. For god's sake, don't spray about routes that haven't been done yet! :roll:
3. Try to keep the emphasis on what you've done for us lately. :wink:
Thank you.
Hardman "these emoticons are starting to grow on me" Knott
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hasbeen
Sep 17, 2004, 4:09 PM
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In reply to: curt wrote: "We are talking about trad routes here, right? Not sport wanking homo poseur "I wish I could really climb" routes, aren't we? "
Huh? Have you actually ever been climbing?! This might be the stupidest post I've ever seen here. On second thought.... it's not...still...
This thread is discussing difficulty of movement, where the difference between a sport climb and a trad climb is grades and grades different. Try toproping, say, Equinox or Panic in Detroit. These 12c/d's are 11+ on top rope. Maybe... MAYBE 12a. Across the board, you generally get a lot of leeway grade wise for dicking around with gear.
I'd tend to agree with Jack, it'd be a stretch to give that thing 13b. However, do the sucker using natural gear and it'll be 14a, easy.
And you don't need to pyramid. That's ridiculous. I've seen people skip numerous grades (as many as 6) with some proper training. Of course, you're doing normal progression wherever you train but a pyramid tick-list is nothing more than a recorded mental barrier.
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jt512
Sep 17, 2004, 4:35 PM
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In reply to: 13b HAHA! NO F&CKING WAY!!!!!! That is a fluff grade! There maybe a bunch of johnny come latelys" that are calling the route in question 13b
Oh, god. Let's hope Troy Mayr doesn't find out you just called him a "Johnny-come-lately." The thought of having to endure another lovers' quarrel between you two could drive me to drink. No, wait, too late for that.
-Jay
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tripperjm
Sep 17, 2004, 6:32 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: 13b HAHA! NO F&CKING WAY!!!!!! That is a fluff grade! There maybe a bunch of johnny come latelys" that are calling the route in question 13b Oh, god. Let's hope Troy Mayr doesn't find out you just called him a "Johnny-come-lately." The thought of having to endure another lovers' quarrel between you two could drive me to drink. No, wait, too late for that. -Jay
Actually, I was referring to the several young bouldering types, that have come thru lately. I remember one... who came to do the fa of a long standing possible 5.14 project, he barely did the warm up 5.12a. Don't mistake me... These young strong kids are the future of hard climbing, I just wish they would keep the ego stroking grade fluffing to a minimum! Up rating long standing estabished local test pieces, that get confirmed regularly by guy's that are for real and have been for decades is BS.
Am I the only one that thinks "sport climbing" has been dumbed down enough? Can't we at least have solid grades?
The memory of that "lovers' quarrel" has ALREADY driven me to DRINK!
BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!1
I will STAND UP AND FIGHT grade creep in my local areas especially when it involves area CLASSICS that are my routes!!!
It's a shame the "tradition" of sticking up for your local crag and caring how it stands up to other crags has been LOST! It seems like I'm the only one locally that cares though!
I have confirmed with Troy, today. Capre Garden 13a. Be proud boys!
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hardmanknott
Sep 17, 2004, 6:53 PM
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Good post Mr. Marshall. I go out of my way to avoid over-rated routes.
I want to be able to spray loudly and proudly--without raising any eyebrows.
Allow me to stick up for one of my local areas, Mickey's Beach.
Those of you used to the gym-like, connect-the-dot, soft routes at
places like Red Rocks will have a healthy dose of humble pie.
I would suggest the following routes for a dose of reality:
Corner 10b
Wet Dreams 12c (just to the left of Dreams Of White Porsches arete)
And especially these West Face routes:
Nancy 11d
Hot Tuna 12a
Ocean Monster 12b
Sex Porpoises 12c
Check those out and get back to us...
Hardman Knott
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slablizard
Sep 17, 2004, 6:58 PM
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Hmmmm... This weekend? Anybody?
In reply to: Nancy 11d Ocean Monster 12b Wet Dreams 12c Sex Porpoises 12c Check those out and get back to us... Hardman Knott |
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hardmanknott
Sep 17, 2004, 7:05 PM
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In reply to: Hmmmm... This weekend? Anybody?
Unfortunately, the tides aren't so good this weekend. (for the West Face routes)
Check out the tide link on the Mickey's Beach page I linked in the post
above -- you generally want to climb there when the tide is +3 feet or less.
However, Sex Porpoises can be climbed at a much higher tide, since it
starts from a large boulder. I could be talked into going down there...
Hardman Knott
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fluxus
Sep 17, 2004, 7:10 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: i would agree...just go ahead and chase the number. rifle is the perfect example...many of the 12ds are harder than a number of the 13bs... Which ones? :shock: Philibister...harder than Vision Thing or Poetic...or the Beast... Hand me the Canteen Boy (or whatever that pissy thing is called) solid 13a.. !
this is a topic for another thread but to call the beast or hand me the canteen boy 13a just plain old lacks credability. BTW I did understand the humor in Rockprodgy's post and agree with the fact that the 12d and 13a grades are an area of great manipulation. Climbers who want the 13a grade too badly love to upgrade routes like the beast and others, which are merely fitness routes. If you have any P.E. at all the beast is easy. This is why Scott Fry used to call it 12b. Ack look at me I'm a spray'n! I'll stop now. no hard feelings. :roll:
peace
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slablizard
Sep 17, 2004, 7:13 PM
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:?
Ok. Auburn?
In reply to: In reply to: Hmmmm... This weekend? Anybody? Unfortunately, the tides aren't so good this weekend. (for the West Face routes) Check out the tide link on the Mickey's Beach page I linked in the post above -- you generally want to climb there when the tide is +3 feet or less. However, Sex Porpoises can be climbed at a much higher tide, since it starts from a large boulder. I could be talked into going down there... Hardman Knott |
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hardmanknott
Sep 17, 2004, 7:23 PM
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In reply to: :? Ok. Auburn?
That place is a (officially closed for climbing) choss-pile. :wink:
Check your Inbox.
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fluxus
Sep 17, 2004, 7:48 PM
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In reply to: Fluxus, referring to your not letting climbers climb the next grade until they have solidified their current grade of choice: First of all, I think this way just makes you a really good climber at that level, not necessarally a better climber all together. And it takes a goddamn long time! I guess this just seems like a lot of work to me. And not a whole lot of fun. Which is also critically important. I have partners, whom I completely respect, who swear by the pyramid system, and it works for them. Awesome hard 13 climbers. However, I know a lot of other friends, myself included, who have not been limited by their avoidance of this system at all. (My friend is nodding his head behind me, in agreement. He says he'd still be climbing 12b.) This forum is all a matter of opinion, and it seems to me that so many of us find sucess in achieving higher grades in many different ways. As for running laps as I suggested... Well, it works for me. And I have to say, what's also critical for me is to have fun doing what I'm doing! If all did was climbing "homework", I'd be gauranteed to start to dislike climbing. I think I'd still be climbing 11's if I climbed with the pyramid technique. I completely respect your system, I just disagree that it is the only way to become a better climber.
I am going to dig into Chimp-chimp a bit here:
No it is not a matter of opinion. Some techniques for training and performing work far better than others, PERIOD. I'm gonna guess from your post that don't really know anything about this topic. Most of what you write is so laden with incorrect assumtions, and is coming from a place of such ignorance I can't bare to address it. I am sorry that I am being both mean to you and very critical of you but I hope that the conversation on training in this country can and will rise above the pedistrian level that is found in your posts.
Pyramids do not take a hell of a long time if they are properly constructed. Its completely normal for climbers using a pyramid to raise their red point level by 3 -4 letter grades in 6- 9 months using pyramids and targeted training. The best I have ever seen personally is a 5 letter grade improvement in about an 8 month period. These gains are substantial and lasting, There is a big difference between building a a good base and working routes to death or getting lucky. Its definately the case that climbers on pyramids spend less time on each route that those who do not, unless there is a problem with the level of their pyramid. But this is all basic tactics 101, I can't believe that I have to defend pyramids!
So running laps at your limit improved your endurance. How is it that local annaerobic training made significant inprovements in your local aerobic ability? You are the only athelete in history who has done this I would love to know what your secret is!
good day :roll:
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hardmanknott
Sep 17, 2004, 8:08 PM
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In reply to: There is a big difference between building a a good base and working routes to death or getting lucky. Its definately the case that climbers on pyramids spend less time on each route that those who do not, unless there is a problem with the level of their pyramid.
I would have to agree with this point. All of my heroic redpoints--except
the 11d, which I got in "only" 7 tries--took an embarrassingly long time.
I would love to be able to get on a route harder than anything I've
done, and be able to to it in a few days--as opposed to weeks and weeks.
I guess it's never too late to dream...
Hardman Knott
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pbjosh
Sep 17, 2004, 8:09 PM
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In reply to: 13b HAHA! NO F&CKING WAY!!!!!! That is a fluff grade! There maybe a bunch of johnny come latelys" that are calling the route in question 13b, let me tell you.... real guy's including myself, who put up the route, call it a standard middle of the road 13a! How can anyone who's hardest rp is 12c (which you stated and I know) rate a route 3 grades harder than their hardest rp???? Just because it seems hard now, does not mean the route got harder..... It just means... we are not as young or strong as we once were.
To further stir the pot, I was under the impression that Troy had put up Carpe Diem, Wicked Garden and Carpe Garden?
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fracture
Sep 17, 2004, 8:58 PM
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In reply to: Let your motivation dictate what kind of pyramid you should or shouldn't have.
I agree. I don't think the pyramid thing is at all close to proven, and I seriously doubt I'd be climbing at the level I climb at yet iif I had started some pyramid foobar instead of constantly working problems/routes past my current ability levels.
In reply to: <gratuitous spray alert>
My first redpoint was a scary 10b--onsight.
[..]
gratuitous spray alert>
<gratuitous nitpicking alert>
How can your first redpoint be an onsight? Onsight means it's your first try (sans beta)---redpoint means it isn't.
gratuitous nitpicking alert>
:D
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slablizard
Sep 17, 2004, 9:04 PM
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I can't be much picky...after all there's no Ceuse around here... :lol: You got o play with what you have...
BTW my Inbox is empty
In reply to: In reply to: :? Ok. Auburn? That place is a ( officially closed for climbing) choss-pile. :wink:
Check your Inbox. |
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hardmanknott
Sep 17, 2004, 9:06 PM
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In reply to: How can your first redpoint be an onsight? Onsight means it's your first try (sans beta)---redpoint means it isn't. :D
You can't say you repointed something on-sight?
After all, I placed the draws on lead... :)
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fracture
Sep 17, 2004, 9:08 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: How can your first redpoint be an onsight? Onsight means it's your first try (sans beta)---redpoint means it isn't. :D You can't say you repointed something on-sight? After all, I placed the draws on lead... :)
:troll:
:lol: :lol:
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tripperjm
Sep 17, 2004, 11:03 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: 13b HAHA! NO F&CKING WAY!!!!!! That is a fluff grade! There maybe a bunch of johnny come latelys" that are calling the route in question 13b, let me tell you.... real guy's including myself, who put up the route, call it a standard middle of the road 13a! How can anyone who's hardest rp is 12c (which you stated and I know) rate a route 3 grades harder than their hardest rp???? Just because it seems hard now, does not mean the route got harder..... It just means... we are not as young or strong as we once were. To further stir the pot, I was under the impression that Troy had put up Carpe Diem, Wicked Garden and Carpe Garden?
The original Carpe Diem was established by Troy. The route was a choss pile and required a 70 meter rope to lower off. A single cold shut (top anchor) from the original ascent is still visable 10 ft above the now existing Carpe Dien anchors. At a later date, I suggested, Troy agreed, and I lowered the anchors to the old location. I spent several afternoons cleaning the route below the "New anchor" and changed a couple of bolts. Troy removed his bolts above the new anchors. During this same year, Troy, Mike and myself established the Wiched Garden. We all worked it/ cleaned it on tr. I bolted and payed for it. We all red pointed it. It began out of the chimney and climbed past the now existing anchors (which weren't there) by 6 or 7 more bolts (12a). The top part of the "old Wiched Garden" still exists. Just look up next time you are at the Carpe Diem anchors. Belaying out of the chimney was a pain, the top of the Wicked Garden wasn't as hard as the route below an obvious stance. Lowering from the still existing "old Wicked Garden" anchors was also a pain. I placed an anchor on the obvious stance, which are the now existing Carpe Diem / Wicked Garden anchors. A few years later 60 meter ropes became avalible. The obvious stance was almost exactly 30 meters up. It is unclear who 1st red pointed the route. Mike and I had continued to train on the Wicked Garden and with the new 60 meter ropes, Mike 1st suggested the conection. The Carpe Garden was born. NO NEW BOLTS were needed for the connection. Mike and I began working the Carpe Garden, others jumped in. We used to go up the Carpe Diem two more bolts before we would cross over. (a little eaisier than what we do today) I've heard the spray from all the claiments and I'm not buying a word of it. IT IS UNCLEAR WHO 1ST RED POINTED THE ROUTE!!! All the "real" players did though, in real short order. (One of the claiments, I've never even seen on the route... except in a photo.) The top of the Carpe Diem still did not exist. A few more years went by. The Carpe Diem became the gang topropping route d'jour. The Carpe Garden could not even be gotten on. Two years ago I bolted the new top of the Carpe Diem along a different line, several ft the the rt of the "old" abondoned line. (yes I said abondoned, you remove your bolts you abandoned) I also removed the "old" lower anchors that I had placed several years before. I red pointed the "New Carpe Diem" 12a. (it's gotten a little harder since then) and it became an instant classic! All the local players went to the new route. Of course there was a large number of people that wanted the old anchors back. Last year I established a new harder "Direct Start" 13b to the "Wicked Garden" and red pointed to the conection. Later that season Aaron came along and red pointed the entire route " Garden Direct" 13b. With the new "Direct Start" there was a bolt that could now be used to cross over to the Garden Lower. It is also unclear who 1st red pointed this new lower traverse... variation of the "New Carpe Garden". Earlier this season an anonymous coward retro bolted a "new" lower anchor, even lower than the "old lower" anchors. I asked Troy if he had installed them, he said NO and we agreed, I chopped the retro lower anchor. That's the story from the guy that was there the whole time while others strayed with other sports, jobs, relationships, injuries, ect.
There is likely no such thing as ownership of a route.... The lower half of the Carpe Diem is Troy's. I did clean and change bolts on it with permission. The top of the route is mine. The Wicked Garden is Troy's, mine and Mike's The Direct Start is mine. It is unclear who 1st rped either of the two variations of the Carpe Garden. Arron rped the Direct Start Wicked Garden combo.
I now assert I have a say it what happens to those route!!! So does Troy! We don't always agree... hence the "lovers quarrel" about bolts and numbers. We have now AGREED though. Carpe Diem, no half way anchors, 12b. Carpe Garden 13a. Direct Start Wicked Garden 13b.
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pbjosh
Sep 17, 2004, 11:08 PM
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Heh thanks for the history :)
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chimp-chimp
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Sep 18, 2004, 12:07 AM
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Regarding Fluxus's response to my post:
"...the pedistrian level that is found in your post."
Now, that's just plain rude. We're in a forum here, is this how you normally communicate with people?
"You are the only athelete in history who has done this I would love to know what your secret is!"
Look, I know you train climbers, and climb amazingly well yourself. I respect your post, I just disagree with it, as have many others here in this forum. Please don't waste your determination on responding to my silly post - go crank out a redpoint, bro!
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krga20
Sep 18, 2004, 1:42 AM
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So, 12c/d is easy to some it seems...That's badass. So, at this level, (or harder grades) is one able to be consistent at different areas? Rifle, Charleston, Williamson, SW Utah.... My experience is, if the route is a little longer, I'm gonna have some trouble. See you at VRG when it cools off. I'll be the one falling off 'high flames drifter'
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