Interesting - looks like it would work in a pinch. How about damage to the rope, though? It seems like the rope being mashed into the ground and run across the rock under your feet while lowering would trash a line pretty fast.

A.W.

Just kidding. Seriously though, on first glance, your stance looks unstable. A flat-topped rock, closer to the ground seems better.

.....ps do you have any pics of the belay setup with a climber partway up 'on belay'? :lol:

I have just one question. Did you catch any falls with it? Feet together is not nearly as balanced a postition as feet apart. It seems it would be very easy to knock the belayer off balance, depending on the weight difference of belayer and climber.

Josh

To all of you who think this is "sketchy" I would remind you that there have been plenty of instances of climbers being dropped when the belayer was using a gri-gri--which is designed to be almost idiot proof.

I am sure there are ways to screw up this foot belay, but I have to say it seemed very safe to all three of us. And, together we have about 85 years of climbing experience. No belay method is 100% foolproof, but we found this foot belay to be a useful tool to know, and that is why I'm passing it along. By all means, if you don't like it though--don't use it.

I would suggest you try it though, perhaps under very controlled conditions, with a second person backing your belay up with an ATC or something--on the side of the rope away from the climber. Also, I do not think this is inherently more dangerous than a waist or hip belay, for top-roping anyway.

Curt

Curt, I don't think this is a "new belay technique". If I recall correctly, they illustrate a similar technique in FOTH. I'll have to double check. Regardless, your creativity is exceptional. Thanks for sharing.

Curt, I don't think this is a "new belay technique". If I recall correctly, they illustrate a similar technique in FOTH. I'll have to double check. Regardless, your creativity is exceptional. Thanks for sharing.

I respect your desire to find a better way, but I think I'd be more comfortable with the hip belay. It would be so easy to lose control with the foot belay...and what is the advantage?

Curt, I don't think this is a "new belay technique". If I recall correctly, they illustrate a similar technique in FOTH.

1) Very easy to use--to hold and lower the climber
2) Very easy to learn
3) Very safe
4) Very comfortable for the belayer

In 85 years of climbing, I would expect you'd learn how to manage a hip belay. Too uncomfortable?? I'm sorry, I'd like another belayer please.

I don't dispute anything you say about the standing one foot belay. But I agree with those who have pointed out the great propensity for losing control if you need to move or lose you balance.

this method goes to show that even with 85 years of experience we climbers can truly know how to f**k up.

now if only i can get your name, address and a get you to take a medical i think i would take out a life insurance policy on you and your n00b friends and name myself as beneficiary. i''ll be rich.

Very safe????? This post should be deleted before some noob actually tries this. Passing this off as being very safe? Must have been hitting the scotch before heading out eh?

This is not safe in Canada so don't try it. Canadians aren't smart enough to figure it out.

So it's not a troll then. Calling me not smart enough and your posting this garbage? hehe. Congrats. 25 years of climbing and you have attained the status of gumby.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=45387

Here you go.

and its not just one thing you need a series of events to happen in a certain order to creat a catastrophe.

All you have to do to f this up is lift your foot dumb a$$.

I am not doubting that it can hold a no slack toprope fall or lower out with a climber equal to or lighter than your self. All it takes to f it up is lowering or catching a heavy climber. Climber pulls a rock, falls as a result, rock plumets toward belayer. Belayers options are either take it like a man or move and drop the climber. Hope the rock is small cause if it's not your going to drop the poor f'er when it knocks your a$$ out. If the angle is wrong or the footing terrain is off then the rope can slip out of there. If the rope is under the foot too far forward it wouldn't take much to lift the front of the foot.

At least post the cons for the noobs instead of passing it off as "very safe".

What's up with the above picture, Curt? Holding both ends of the rope with your guide hand (and the brake hand off) is always a no-no. With the Grigri, with tube devices, a figure 8, and even the hip belay.

Also, check this one from your first post:

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=45382

It appears that you are switching your brake hand above the guide hand (same problem). What's the deal?

If this is a troll, nice touch. If not, could you explain how it's "very safe" to take your break hand off, and essentially just be holding the climber's rope? You wouldn't do this when giving a hip belay, would you?

Well well well.

Curt, I am guessing you had at least one carabiner and maybe even three. Here's one more thing you could have done, assuming the rope was long enough.....

Now, if you are serious and not trolling, I'm willing to TR on your shoe belay, as long as you will share the scotch, because, for one thing I'm betting that you could hold a typical TR 'fall' with no belay method other than two hands on the rope. Assuming you did slip and fall, as long as you did not let go of the rope, no great tragedy would follow, and I'm guessing that YOU and probably your friends have the sense to know that no matter what the belay method is, you just have to do one thing for it to be successful, and that is, DON'T LET GO OF THE ROPE!

So now I have some questions:

Is this a joke or is it serious?

If the answer to the last question is, "It's serious.", then,
How did you set the top rope up?

What does JT have to say about this new belay method?

Did you have both hands on the brake side while lowering? Sorry, couldn't resist.

is quite possible, and in fact easy to move around using this belay--lifting your foot is not a problem and does not fuck up the belay

I will give you an A+ for inventiveness, and creativity. however there just, to me anyway, seems to be too many factors to make this reliably safe dude. I will throw in a quick moment of vertigo in for the list of things that could cause this to fail. I get 'em and I know that I'm not the only ones. lift your foot even just a few inches and you run the risk of the rope slipping off your foot. a hip belay, however waaaaaaaaaay more ungodly uncomfortable, just seems to have less chinks in its safety armor

Congrats on developing a new belay technique that worked for you. I would have to see this in person and in live action to fully discount it as unsafe. afterall I said that the overhand knot for rappel was unsafe until I saw it in action too.

Kman can you see the looks on peoples faces if we were to bring this one out at Grassi Lakes. HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA ah man that would be funnnnnnny

PS curt, I've sent this over to a budddy of mine who is full mountain guide to see what he thinks of it. I'll let you know what the findings are.

I will reword it then. While lowering or while catching a fall you can lift your foot up without f'ing the belay? What if your moving and the guy falls?

Can't think of a situation for why you would even want to use this.

And, I don't aid climb--its cheating, to a free climber, that is. Haha.
Curt

Well, it sounds like you may at least have an open mind. I have already suggested a way you can try this for yourself, with no risk at all. Do this and then let me know what your thoughts are. I guarantee that this looks way more hairball than it actually is.

We tried that too and you are correct. However, we didn't like that method for a couple reasons. Principally, because the arm strength required to catch a falling climber with that method is quite high and your forearms arms get tired. So, when it is your turn to climb--you're pumped. I do not recommend that method.

I have already given several reasons.

While lowering or while catching a fall you can lift your foot up without f'ing the belay? What if your moving and the guy falls?

Yeah, I think so and I don't think that is a huge problem.

My point here was, that if you were using your new method, and a wlid boar suddenly burst out of the woods and bit off your brake leg, as long as you did not let go of the rope, the climber would not hit the ground. What you would do about your missing leg and the now drunk (on good scotch at least) wild boar would be for another thread.

I'll still ride on this belay, given some decent scotch and a wild boar free environment.

It's called short term memory. A result of many years of pot smoking and heavy lsd use lol.






I am going to try it and see what happens ( in a safe situation ). I am willing to bet on the following:
1. I will be able to hold a simple tr fall and lower.
2. My 105 pound wife will not be able to hold me.
3. If I take my foot off the ground while lowering I will probably loose control.

I am also curious how hard it is to move a little bit while lowering.

Whatever. I think you're wearing the Andrea Bocelli t-shirt. Now if THAT don't scream gumby, I don't know what does 8-)

course, you seem to be some sort of expert on this belay technique in spite of your total ignorance of it

Yeah, but you're an old trad climber who actually knows how things work. What are you doing posting in this thread anyway? This thread has long ago turned into a forum for gumbies like kman and others who don't wear long pants yet to expound vacuously on things they have no understanding of. Haha.

Curt

Andrea Bocelli is great. Gumbies do not listen to Andrea Bocelli. Anyway, climbing attire-wise, the Prana pants ought to offset the Bocelli t-shirt, don't you think? Haha.

Curt

O.k. time to clarify things a bit instead of mud slinging.

I never claimed to be any kind of "expert". I never doubted that you could hold a tr fall with it. What I said was if you need to dodge a rock (add:) while under load you'd be screwed. And I still think so. It would be hard to move while under load without losing it. That is all.

I will use 3 biners as you did. The place where I will try it out will have to be so that It will run throught the 3 biners directly to the belayer without touching any rock...since I am doing it at home.

My wife weighs 105 lbs and I am 180. I would be very suprised if she can hold it. It would be possible if enough friction was introduced though.

I still think that when I lift my foot off the ground while under load it's going to be damn sketch to maintain control.

I still think that it is not a "very safe" method. However, I would take a pro using this method over a noob with a gri gri.....in the right situation.

For optimum radness, you should coat the left cheek of your pranas in pink gatorade. I think my berry punch gatorade stain gave me mojo this weekend. Too bad I didn't have a Bocelli shirt, I might have gotten a B1 that way 8-)

It does seem that you are befuddled by relatively simple things.

Once again, you are wrong on all counts.

Of course, you seem to be some sort of expert on this belay technique in spite of your total ignorance of it.

The problem here is that neither of you two geniuses even have the slightest idea of what you're talking about.

Canadians aren't smart enough to figure it out.

Also, a gumby is someone who speaks out of their ass about things they have no knowledge of. In other words--you.

Form the looks of this, the biggest concern I would have would be the difficulty moving, say, to dodge a rock, which probably was no factor on that slab.

-Jay

However, she would not be able to hold you with a conventional belay either

"I believe that if the climber were to fall at that exact moment the belay would still work."

What people have to keep in mind about Curt, is that he is infallible.

Just look at some of his statements:


You see, Curt is always right! He has to be right. He has consulted 85 years of climbing experience that tells him it's safe; therefor, all of us must be wrong.

How could we possibly argue with "being a gumby" ?

Curt is just right!

We should follow in his example: use "old chunks" of rope to climb on, leave our harnesses, biners, and belay device at home. Climb without helmets, and learn to be as experienced and resourceful as Curt.

We should ignore the critisizms of other "gumby's" who question our superiority, whether they be certified guides or boulder toads new to belay techniques.

Curt has found a way for us to forget almost all of our formerly essential climbing gear at home, and still rope up and climb..."safely"!

How could anyone possibly question him?!?

Take notice here guys...we're witnessing history.

Couldn't get pulled off balance moving around with one leg in the air could you?

naw!

Wow. Your profile says that you have been climbing for three whole years now. Such vast experience you have. Obviously everyone here should listen to you. Do you really think you look very intelligent putting your climbing credentials up against mine, or Brent Bingham's or Chris Raypole's? They are the other guys who developed this belay technique with me last weekend. Give it a break n00b. Oh, and don't forget to clean off the mirror after you pop your zits before going to bed tonight, kid. There is no reason to leave your mother with that mess to deal with.

Curt

I would use this belay technique if there were no other options. I would never let anybody use it on me (having a fat ass) and a paranoia about being droped.

Hey Curt, this should probably be in the ask Curt a question thread but is Bocelli's new CD any good? I like Romanza and I believe it is his best CD to date. Did you know he is blind?

Yes, I know he is blind, just like jimdavis.

Ooops! Nobody should listen to me, I'm a noob. You should all listen to Curt, the master of what's right.

Obiviously Curt is a better climber, and a better mud-slinger, so he must be right.

I forgot about that whole the "authority is always right" thing. Us newer climbers need to stop thinking for ourselves and follow in the older generations footsteps, even if they seem wrong. Right Curt?

Not challenging your climbing resume Curt...just you intelligence, and your character...both of with your proven masterfully in this thread.

when i climb i make one assumption--it is dangerous. therefore everything i do is done to minimize the associated risks. yes, i have been in risky situations--no fall zones etc. those were mistakes or calculated moments when given my situation there was little choice. in hindsight i cudda maybe shudda backed down.

but your idea says something totally different. it is introducing risk to a situation (top roping) which we all know can be reduced to near zero with a little experience, education and due care and attention.

were i to conceive of an idea such as yours, i would be sure to test it to the point of failure and in as many situations as possible before sharing it with the world.

people here have pointed out several hazards with your idea which you have ignored nilly willy.

it is conceivable, nay, likely, that a belayer would have to move without warning. i don't need a rock or a boar attack to cause that. even something as simple as a tangle in the rope that required my immediate attention might require a quick shuffle or move. climbing is like that. i want my systems to be able to absorb the unexpected.

your system (and i am hard put to use that word) is a 'if nothing goes wrong' system.

please move this thread to the newbie category where it belongs.

Let's really consider who started the mud slinging here. I started a post about a new belay technique that works really well, within the given caveats I posted and you, with no knowledge of this technique whatsoever, slam it and me personally.

Yes, I am in fact a much better climber than you are and have a wealth of climbing experience you will probably never have

but your idea says something totally different. it is introducing risk to a situation (top roping)

No, I merely pointed out the manorism is which you defend yourself. By insulting others.

You are simply a bitter, hostile person, who belives he has to be right.

You have a history of doing it, all over this site.

Suggesting something as stupid as this, given all the reasonable alternatives, is stupid...and yet you continue to defend yourself as if what you have to say is the word of God.


Not only are you an elitist, but a Fortune Teller too.

Get over yourself, Curt. Your coming off as pretty pathetic.

awesome curt...


if you had read his first post correctly you would have seen that they were bouldering.. and were top roping high balls.

I am an "elitist" and you are a poseur and wannabe with very little experience or knowledge to back up your baseless assertions.

Curt

perhaps in this situation. but curt is positing that this is a new belay technique that could be used in general for top roping.

i stand by my comments. introducing this technique without a s**tload of testing smacks of negligence.

sorry curt, I don't buy it.

I mean, we all know how dangerous tying in on a bowline-coil is. It can suffocate people!

All it would take for disaster to happen would be for the climber to take a fall while you were busy staring a the hottie on the next climb over, thus forgetting to lower him. Two, maybe three hours of gawking at prana tops, and your partner could be DEAD. That's why I would only try this method if the climber was wearing a very comfy bigwall harness.

No, I've done....rather you've done a VERY good job at prooving your a bitter a$$hole.

Baseless assertions? Your prooving me right with every responce...

At this point, I have infinitely more experience with this belay method than you do.

Curt

On an unrelated note, this thread kind of reminds me of the one that described a couple of guys going to their local climbing gym to test the strength of those little key chain beiners. They said that no matter how far they ran it out and whipped off as hard as they could, the key chain beiner refused the break. Sketchy to say the least, and the thread was deleted.

Any bets on how long this one will last. :wink:

that would be incorrect. comparing your experience to ours (0 for us) is undefined. any number divided by zero is undefined.

something akin to the amount of testing you have done before making your claim of a new technique which in your 'infinite' wisdom is safe. ha!

You spelled response wrong. Not the brightest bulb on the tree, are you? Let me see if I can summarize. RC.com readers are going to have to figure out whether they should take the word of someone who has actually experienced and experimented with this new belay technique, first hand, who also has 25 years of high level climbing experience that encompasses trad, alpine, bouldering, sport, etc. (that would be me) or, instead believe a snot nosed n00b with three years of climbing under their belt (that is you) who has never tried this belay method.

Yeah, that's a tough choice. :lol:

Curt

Not arguing who people need to listen to about your "belay" technique...people can decide that for themselves.

You must have missed that in just about all of my posts. Brightest bulb on the tree... atleast this one is lit.

In fact, it is quite correct to say that dividing by zero gives infinity. But 'infinity' is not a number. So this is just another way of saying that division by zero does not have an answer that can be written. You're not a math major either, are you? Hahahaha.

Curt