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rrrADAM
Apr 11, 2004, 8:19 AM
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In reply to: Ok now I think I get it, both ends WERE in front of him when she started to rap, she just pulled 20' of lead line through the anchor and rapped off that...I think. The phrase "not expecting me to make such an egregious error as to attempt a 180' rappel with 100' of rope" led me to believe she actually pulled half the lead line through the anchor.
OK, so now with more details... I will ask you again, what more could have Tim done ??? He radioed up to her more than once, he asked if she was OK, more than once. Remember, you said he "is even more guilty of incompetence than the near-victim, and I'm sorry if that sounds harsh or cantankerous...just an experienced climber taking an interest in the newer ones". That's a pretty strong statement don't ya think ???
The point of my original post was that we all should only reply and give opinions on matters in which we have all the details and/or intimate knowledge of, else we end up giving bunk advice and/or calling BS on the wrong person. Is that a fair statement ???
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kalcario
Apr 11, 2004, 8:32 AM
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*OK, so now we have established this... I will ask you again, what more could have Tim done ??? He radioed up to her more than once, he asked if she was OK, more than once. Remember, you said he "was even more at fault that the near victim". That's a pretty strong statement.*
Well, especially since they had radios...job one was walk her through tying the ropes together, which never happened. Tell her to tie both ropes off and thread the skinny one through the anchors, tie them together, put your rap device on the rope, and bail.
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rrrADAM
Apr 11, 2004, 8:36 AM
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I get it... You are not one to make mistakes, like posting so harshly prior to having all the details. :roll:
Thanx for looking out for the users. :wink:
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kalcario
Apr 11, 2004, 8:48 AM
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*The point of my original post was that we all should only reply and give opinions on matters in which we have all the details and/or intimate knowledge of, else we end up giving bunk advice and/or calling BS on the wrong person. Is that a fair statement ???*
You were'nt there either, chief. And the Bottom Line is, when you take somebody up on something they have no business being on, and you know it, you are 100% responsible for whatever happens, unless they get hit by lightning or rockfall or something objective, because you put that person in that situation. You'd better have rock solid judgement in every situation and not let them do ANYTHING mission critical on their own if they're wasted. That's how climbing works, and fairness has nothing to do with it. So yeah, I'm saying he's just as responsible for this accident, if not more so, than she is. If something like this had happened on my watch I would never climb again.
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alpnclmbr1
Apr 11, 2004, 9:40 AM
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Kalc you are an a$$ as usual.
It is possible to guarantee a certain amount of safety in a controlled one pitch situation. Once you get into multi-pitch and particularly in the case of a route like MB it is a different story. A certain amount of competence is required and expected.
Tim is not a mind reader, Amber would have needed to communicate a need before detailed step by step radio beta would have been appropriate in the situation of setting up a rappel.
If this accident had not happened, her climbing the route would have not been any big deal.
Amber:
Even the best and the brightest make stupid mistakes under trying circumstances. In one sense maybe you tried "too" hard. Now trying hard will for the most part be a good thing, but it can get you in trouble. I hope you can find a positive side to this event, like a long and successful climbing career.
Tim:
It is a fine line to walk when you are encouraging less experienced climbing partners and it will always entail some risk. If Amber had died it wouldn't have been you're fault. Her accident wasn't you're fault. As far as whether she should have been on the route, you obviously thought she was up for it.
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tim
Apr 11, 2004, 4:25 PM
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In reply to: If something like this had happened on my watch I would never climb again.
I doubt the veracity of this statement. For all the time you spent in the Valley, are you telling me that no one ever had an accident while you were around? If that's the case, congratulations. If not, why are you still climbing?
As far as the leading and anchoring aspects of the climb went, my judgement was pretty much correct -- Amber did a fine job of it. I cannot necessarily manage every aspect of every one of my partners' decisions, if that's what you're implying -- I could understand you leveling this charge at someone who was paid to guide, but each of the members of a rope team has to decide to get on a route. Which, of course, makes me complicit in this since I could just has easily have called it off as she could. However...
I'm not a guide. I don't take 100% responsibility for every decision a partner makes. While I ought to have listened to Josh (as I have said innumerable times) regarding Amber's readiness for the climb, I did pay attention to his suggestions about which leads would be reasonable for her to get out on, and things were going smoothly up there. But the proximal cause of this accident was Amber's allowing the end of her rappel rope to slip through her ATC, after radioing down that she had placed a knot in the end of the rope (and after I had radioed up to fix the fucking rope and stay put). I can't and won't be held responsible for that decision because there was nothing whatsoever I could do about it.
I agree with everything else you've said.
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tim
Apr 11, 2004, 4:37 PM
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In reply to: Well, especially since they had radios...job one was walk her through tying the ropes together, which never happened. Tell her to tie both ropes off and thread the skinny one through the anchors, tie them together, put your rap device on the rope, and bail.
Actually, I did. "What knot did you put in the ropeS?" "Overhand!" Cool!
Turns out the overhand was the backup knot. Uncool!
And the ropes were not joined. Extremely uncool!
Unfortunately for me, the radios were a bit crackly and not perfect for communicating large chunks of information. Short questions worked fine so that's what I relied upon.
At some point I realized everything had gone to hell (or at least became very uncomfortable with the sketchy information I had) and requested the line be fixed, but Amber was unable to do so. Things promptly went downhill fast from there.
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calamity_chk
Apr 11, 2004, 4:40 PM
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In reply to: * he thought i was just making long tails when joining the ropes, i thought he was seeing both ends of my lead lines. we were both wrong.* What do you mean, "both ends of your lead lines"? You had 2 lead lines? I assume you mean "both ends of your lead LINE" (singular)...and there was still only ONE line hanging in front of him when you started to rap, yes?
typo, sorry - i'll go back and edit the post. yes, i only had one lead line. the haul line (still attached to my haul loop) was the other line. tim thought that i had attached the two ropes (haul and lead line) together, i thought he was seeing both ends of my lead line, which ended up being horribly uneven.
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kalcario
Apr 11, 2004, 5:12 PM
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*I doubt the veracity of this statement. For all the time you spent in the Valley, are you telling me that no one ever had an accident while you were around? If that's the case, congratulations. If not, why are you still climbing?*
Nothing bad ever happened to anybody I ever climbed with while we shared a rope. I'm trying to think if anybody I ever climbed with has bought it climbing...
*I did pay attention to his suggestions about which leads would be reasonable for her to get out on, and things were going smoothly up there.*
She wrote that she got "a lecture about not considering time on lead vs amount of daylight." How long did it take her to lead that pitch? When the sun sets on pitch 5 of a 10 pitch route you were trying to do in a day, that doesn't sound real smooth to me.
Fairness and politeness has no place when discussing fatal or near fatal climbing accidents, and since that's what being insisted on by people who prefer politeness over assigning blame, I'm out.
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bobd1953
Apr 11, 2004, 5:14 PM
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In reply to: As climbers we are 100% responsible for OURSELVES!. Amber made a choice to do the climb, she made a choice to go beyond her skills and capabilities, she made a choice to make a mistake that she was aware of while she was making it, she made a choice to PUT HERSELF IN THAT SITUATION. She had information, both right and wrong, and had the opportunity to filter through it, and she chose the risky path. NO ONE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS BUT AMBER, and while she had a hard lesson learning this one, I believe she's learned it.
True...but I tend to agree with Joe. Amber was wrong, lack the proper skills, shouldn't been on the route and the pair took almost a full day to do four pitches of easy aid. There the first red flag going up that Tim should have seen.
As the more competent and experience leader Tim should have maybe realized that things were not going well and bailed-off the climb after a few pitches.
When I climb with folks with less experience than me I feel the need to not only look out for their well-being but also my own. I don't want some one else being the death of me!
This was a bad deal from the start. They had to bail-off the climb from a few pitches up the week or two before. Another red flag! I doubt that Amber's aid skills improved that much in that short of a time.
Again, not to beat a dead horse, it was Amber fault but if I was with someone of her ability, I would have gotten off the route or took-over all of the leading. She was an accident just waiting to happen!
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kalcario
Apr 11, 2004, 5:22 PM
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*she made a choice to make a mistake that she was aware of while she was making it, she made a choice to PUT HERSELF IN THAT SITUATION.*
This statement makes no sense. She chose to make a mistake and was aware of it while she was making it. No.
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calamity_chk
Apr 11, 2004, 6:24 PM
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In reply to: Amber made a choice to do the climb, she made a choice to go beyond her skills and capabilities, she made a choice to make a mistake that she was aware of while she was making it, she made a choice
yes, i made a choice to do the climb, yes i made that choice after two friends tried to dissuade me from aid. no, i did not realize the mistakes i was making until i was struggling to hold onto the rope. while i did have a "gut feeling" that something was wrong, i was not consciously aware of the mistakes at hand until after the fact. to say that i was making mistakes that i was aware of while i was making them implies intent. i did not intentionally set my rappel up wrong; however, i do take responsibility for getting in over my head.
In reply to: She wrote that she got "a lecture about not considering time on lead vs amount of daylight." How long did it take her to lead that pitch? When the sun sets on pitch 5 of a 10 pitch route you were trying to do in a day, that doesn't sound real smooth to me.
it took me a couple of hours to lead the pitch, and by then it was starting to get dark so we had decided to bail. another factor that unexpectedly killed some time was giving the nod to be passed.
In reply to: Fairness and politeness has no place when discussing fatal or near fatal climbing accidents, and since that's what being insisted on by people who prefer politeness over assigning blame, I'm out.
tim and i have accepted responsibility for our mistakes, some argue that we're taking on blame that isnt ours to begin with - but that's beside the point because both of our perspectives have drastically changed over the incident. as such, pointing fingers is a moot point.
rather, i posted the account because i see countless other people with the same attitude that i had prior to attempting that route. being the endless bleeding heart that i am, i wanted to share what happened to me in hopes that they'd learn from it - and i would hate for the point about how fatal blind ambition can be to get lost in finger pointing. neither one of us are trying to justify what happened up there.
In reply to: They had to bail-off the climb from a few pitches up the week or two before. Another red flag! I doubt that Amber's aid skills improved that much in that short of a time.
additional notes. on the first attempt, i was much more of an equal partner, demonstrated reasonable self-sufficiency, and helped resolve little problems here and there. i participated in backup checks, blah blah blah. i wasnt the brainless bonking girl, which is why tim and i both felt that i was up to task. then again, i was also eating better and smoking less on that attempt.
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tim
Apr 11, 2004, 6:35 PM
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In reply to: She wrote that she got "a lecture about not considering time on lead vs amount of daylight." How long did it take her to lead that pitch? When the sun sets on pitch 5 of a 10 pitch route you were trying to do in a day, that doesn't sound real smooth to me.
Smooth in the sense of "without incident" rather than "speedy". Point taken, though. That's why I called for us to bail, which unfortunately precipitated this.
In reply to: Fairness and politeness has no place when discussing fatal or near fatal climbing accidents, and since that's what being insisted on by people who prefer politeness over assigning blame, I'm out.
Seriously? I didn't realize I had asked anyone to be polite (or even 'fair' for that matter, although some adherence to logic and/or the basics of personal responsibility would be appreciated). I am trying to reconcile what you're saying with my analysis of what happened and how I ought to prevent anything like this from happening again. As far as anyone else -- Adam may be trying to defend his impression of me as a climber, but he does not always reflect my opinions. I would hope you feel free to speak your mind.
You seem to have led a charmed life in the Valley, in addition to exhibiting better judgement than I did in taking Amber up on this route. If you were some random tool trolling I wouldn't care what you have to say, but you aren't and I (probably others as well) do want to hear it.
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tim
Apr 11, 2004, 6:48 PM
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In reply to: As the more competent and experience leader Tim should have maybe realized that things were not going well and bailed-off the climb after a few pitches.
You are correct, of course, which is precisely why I motioned to bail after her lead.
There is no question that I erred in putting her out on lead. We had been offered the use of another party's fixed ropes if we needed to bail, and noting the time that Amber reached the anchors, I decided that was the right thing to do. In what should have been a short span of time between communicating that decision and jumping onto the fixed ropes to rappel to the ground, everything when straight to hell, with more subtle miscommunications than I had previously thought possible. But don't for a second imagine that I wanted to 'press on' or some bullshit like that. The correct course of action was to admit that, shortfixing with no pack or hauling and crawling along, we were not going to hit our objective and needed to come back another day.
What burns me more than anything else is that attempting to 'do the right thing' and bail was what led directly to this situation. Amber represented herself as having a few aid leads under her belt, some climbs in the Fishers (!) , most of a WFR certification in hand, and a reasonable familiarity with self rescue. My biggest mistake (as far as I can tell) was taking these things at face value and attributing our initial failure to inadequate systems & organization.
I don't know what happened to my previous edit, but Bob and Joe, please don't take this as me trying to slander you. Both of you guys have been climbing longer than I've been alive, and I appreciate you calling bull shit when you see it. I don't want to repeat any of the mistakes I made leading up to this.
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tim
Apr 11, 2004, 6:52 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: As the more competent and experience leader Tim should have maybe realized that things were not going well and bailed-off the climb after a few pitches. You are correct, of course, which is precisely why I motioned to bail after her lead. The times mentioned in response to Kate's post -- about 90 minutes per lead -- had been accurate enough for my leads, and seemed to indicate we were moving according to plan. When Amber's lead took a great deal longer, I moved progressively towards "we bail" and finally called up unequivocally that we were going down. There is no question that I erred in putting her out on lead. We had been offered the use of another party's fixed ropes if we needed to bail, and noting the time that Amber reached the anchors, I decided that was the right thing to do. In what should have been a short span of time between communicating that decision and jumping onto the fixed ropes to rappel to the ground, everything when straight to hell, with more subtle miscommunications than I had previously thought possible. But don't for a second imagine that I wanted to 'press on' or some s--- like that. The correct course of action was to admit that, shortfixing with no pack or hauling and crawling along, we were not going to hit our objective and needed to come back another day. What burns me more than anything else is that attempting to 'do the right thing' and bail was what led directly to this situation. Amber represented herself as having a few aid leads under her belt, some climbs in the Fishers (!) , most of a WFR certification in hand, and a reasonable familiarity with self rescue. My biggest mistake (as far as I can tell) was taking these things at face value and attributing our initial failure to inadequate systems & organization. Please do call bull shit on me if you disagree. You and Joe have both been climbing longer than I have, or Amber, or Amber and I put together. |
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bobd1953
Apr 11, 2004, 6:53 PM
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In reply to: The prior attempt wasnt aid climbing, it was mostly free. We lost a lot of time by messing with the haul bag so we decided to attempt it without a proper haulbag. instead, we both had camelbaks, and the second carried a light backpack with food. also, it seems to have been lost in the shuffle, but *before* i even finished p4, we had already decided to bail. also, we had discussed the when's/where's to bail prior to getting on the route. bailing from p4 was part of that plan. my setting up the rappel wrong was not.
Amber, how far did you get up the route on that mostly free, first try? Three-four pitches? That in-it-self should have been a red flag. You and the many other folks on this site need to put your time. How many trad-pitches have you led? How many pitches have you aided (not-jugging) prior to this attempt? I would quess that number to be below 30-40 on both cases.
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bobd1953
Apr 11, 2004, 7:03 PM
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In reply to: What burns me more than anything else is that attempting to 'do the right thing' and bail was what led directly to this situation. Amber represented herself as having a few aid leads under her belt, some climbs in the Fishers (!) , most of a WFR certification in hand, and a reasonable familiarity with self rescue. My biggest mistake (as far as I can tell) was taking these things at face value and attributing our initial failure to inadequate systems & organization.
A lot of people mis-represent themselves on this site and it is going to lead to a death sooner or later.
I am not blaming you, I just would have taking over a lot sooner.
I also think you got scammed with Amber's skills level. Jugging a few aid routes does not make you a skills aid-leader ready for a big-wall.
Anybody can read about self-rescue. Doing it is another issue!
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calamity_chk
Apr 11, 2004, 7:19 PM
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Bob,
I'm not trying to argue with you - I freely admit that I wasnt ready for the wall. However, I honestly, sincerely thought that I was ready for it when I agreed to take on the route and did not intentionally misrepresent my experience level or try to scam Tim into taking me up it. I had led a couple of aid pitches with a friend who has done a couple of walls. His assessment was that I was ready for a "smallish" wall or trade route, and I took his word for it. Obviously, I regret not putting in more miles and doing a more thorough assessment of my own skills before taking on something as committing as a wall, trade route or not - but I didnt scam or lie.
Point is, I dont think that a lot of people around here are intentionally scamming and lying - but they honestly dont know their own limits yet, which should be a huge red flag for them. Personally, my hope was to reach these people by pointing out my errors in judgment. My (naive?) hope is that they'll be able to throttle back their own ticklists from my mistakes since their ego isnt at stake. Then again, they're not the ones who felt the primal terror that I felt, expecting to die sure as sht throttled me back. Hopefully other users around here are so headstrong.
I've paid for self rescue classes and practice every six months or so. I'm also working on a bridge course for a WFR. Unfortunately, I learned the hard way that taking classes doesnt replace practical experience. I had the book smarts, but no common sense.
You're right though, I've only led a few aid pitches and not nearly enough trad (though I cant recall off hand how many trad pitches I've led). Regardless, I agree that whatever the number, it was insufficient, which is why I've said countless times over that I plan to put in plenty more trad pitches before bothering with aid again.
In reply to: You and the many other folks on this site need to put your time. |
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bobd1953
Apr 11, 2004, 7:27 PM
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In reply to: Bob, I'm not trying to argue with you
Never thought you were. I with Joe on this one. I'm out!
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thrasher
Apr 11, 2004, 7:27 PM
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tim and amber...your biggest mistake was making this public, especially on the soap opera otherwise known as rc.com. If this is the sort of reception you get for "trying to have others learn from your mistakes" then screw it. Keep it quiet and let the fools kill themselves. There has got to be a coffin maker somewhere that needs the business(maybe that guy in "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly" needs to build a few).
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tim
Apr 11, 2004, 8:00 PM
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In reply to: tim and amber...your biggest mistake was making this public, especially on the soap opera otherwise known as rc.com. If this is the sort of reception you get for "trying to have others learn from your mistakes" then screw it. Keep it quiet and let the fools kill themselves. There has got to be a coffin maker somewhere that needs the business(maybe that guy in "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly" needs to build a few).
I'm not sure that's being fair to Joe, or Bob, or Dan, or even Richard. They are all experienced climbers who felt the need to shake up the silly lovefest that started to take hold, and I hope that some of the people reading this, who maybe got the wrong impression that "oh it was only a rappel error, that's all I need to watch out for", will be steered in the right direction and keep their goals in line with what they're ready for.
Being bold is respected and enamored in climbing, but it can (and has and will continue to) get people killed, in the ugliest, messiest ways possible. Moreover I did not fulfill my obligation to objectively evaluate my partner's ability as part of a team. Initially I might not have admitted that (or only halfheartedly). Now I would not dream of denying it.
If all the replies had been along the lines of "glad to hear you're not dead" this would have been worse than useless, but it served to disambiguate how Amber stopped, point up a hell of a lot of mistakes or incorrect decisions along the way, and generally speaking, I feel a lot more positive about the site's value after seeing the discussions that followed and were spawned by it. I truly expected much, much less and am grateful for the expert observations of the old bold climbers that participated, uncomfortable though they may be.
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sandy
Apr 11, 2004, 8:21 PM
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Amber,
I just read most of this entire thread. Wow. I'm so relieved you are okay. How are your burns healing?
As to the debate about how Tim could have allowed Amber to rap based on what he saw, I think that him seeing the lead line and the haul line both hanging down would indicate (to him) that they were tied together and that Amber was going to do a double rope rappel. Had she simply untied from her lead line, threaded it through the anchors, and tied it to her haul line with an EDK, he would not have seen the lead or haul lines move much, if at all, which he did not (is this correct?). The question that was never asked, which surprises me, is "which color do we need to pull?" This is pretty standard on a double rope rappel, to avoid getting the knot jammed in the anchors. Had this question been asked, it may have become apparent that the ropes were not tied together.
I'm not pointing fingers or trying to blame anyone, just pointing out a common safety practice.
Also, early in the thread, Karlbaba pointed out that the single biggest cause of this accident was Amber's bonking. Someone (sorry, forget who) said that no, her inability to think clearly was the problem. I believe it was implied that this was due to her inexperience, but may be remembering incorrectly. At any rate, I have hypoglycemia and I want to stress that when your blood sugar is low, you CANNOT think. Add to that the fact that Amber was also probably having nicotine withdrawal, I can completely understand her (lack of) thought processes. Karl was absolutely correct.
Amber, quit smoking, and avoid pure carbo meals/snacks when you are climbing. I've learned that I have to consume lots of fat and protein in order to keep my blood sugar stable (peanut butter is great for this), along with carbs for energy. The last time I bonked was at the end of a day of climbing at a drive up crag. I couldn't even get my car key in the lock in order to get to my food, and had to ask my partner to do it for me. Setting up a rap under those circumstances would be impossible.
Take good care. I'm glad you aren't going to give up climbing.
Best,
Sandy
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Re: ambition & ego: my 160' fall in zion
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