Oversimplifying is as bad or worse than presenting something as hopelessly complicated and thus beyond one's control, which is why I suspect you think calling something multi-causal is a type of copout. Am I correct? But I stand by what I said and you are more or less restating it here. People will generally try to simplify concepts, as this is a natural part of trying to understand complex things.

Right on with the male-female thing, in some ways.

I am shocked by the number of males that have offered to drag me up steck salathe, the nose in a day, tripple direct, bla bla bla.

You folks are the scary ones.

A very strong and very true statement.
Think about what bob just said.

I haven't read everything in this thread.

I'm connected to Amber's incident in a few ways and thought I'd share some thoughts.

Amber talked extensivly with me about climbing moonlight before her first and second attempts.
My first reaction was to tell her she shouldn't be anywhere near this route, and I gave her an earful.

When I realised she was going to try it no matter what I said, I talked with her about being safe on a wall. These conversation's are to detailed to truly get into but I'll hit some point's.
We talked about staying tied to the wall at all times. We talked about eating right- to avoid bonking. We talked about gear and technique. I gave her Specific beta on the route.

Then I tried to talk her out of it again.

Then I talked to tim(pm's). I specficily told tim, Amber was not ready for this climb. That being said and knowing they were going anyway, I gave tim VERY Specific beta about how he should climb this route with Amber.

After the Red Rocks Rendzous I arrived at the mean bean coffee shop in Springdale to meet joe and climb at around 8am.
When I pulled into the parking lot so did amber.
She said hi- I was quite surprised to see her. I asked her how moonlight went. Then she showed me her burns and told her story.
I made sure she cleaned her hands and was going to get medical treatment(the EMT in me coming out).
Then joe and I went climbing- and I seriously thought about calling the day off, but didn't.

That night amber camped with us and I helped her wash and bandage her burns.

This is getting long winded and I feel like I've used the word "I" too much, guess I'm justing letting it all loose.

I have a couple of points to make.

#1 Listen to your FRIENDS ie; the people that know you and your abilities.
Friends aren't trying to hold you back, they want you to succeed.
But! They don't want you hurt in the process.
#2 If you don't know what you are doing don't go giving advice!!
Don't get others in over their head!

This thing really bothered me, I've known climbers who've died and been hurt but never was I as involved with the "process", ahead of time.

I don't know what else I could have done to talk amber out of trying this, but if I'm ever put in this situation again I'll try harder.

A wise person once told me "Don't do dumb things"- something to think about in all aspect's of life.
Sorry if I rambled....

josh

Amber and I talked at length about her accident. So I will put my two-cents in the pot. Amber neither had the skills or the background to be able to do the climb. She did not listen to people who told so and more than likely listened to folks on this site who told her she was ready for a climb like this. She let her ego, blinded ambition and the ill-advice of other folks (on this site) who have less skills than her to lead her to believe that she was ready to do the route. You folks are the scary ones.

She let her ego, blinded ambition and the ill-advice of other folks (on this site) who have less skills than her to lead her to believe that she was ready to do the route.

Very sage words and spot on.

There are many on this site who believe that since they have read a few books, and done a few routes that they are "experts" at climbing, and I have even witnessed these "experts" argue with the likes of John Gill, Ammon McNeely, Brian Law, and others about climbing details on this site. I have listened to these "experts" say, "I've never done_____, but...", and then proceed to argue with someone who calls BS on them. I've argued with climbers about what knot to use to join ropes together, when they have never even rapped, yet alone done a double rope rap. Go figure.

I recently deleted a thread in which it was implied that it was safe to take lead falls on "key chain biners", and was beaten relentlessly by many users for doing so. They even called me a nazi censor. Better that than a n00b thinking it was safe, doing so, and getting hurt or worse. I know... Who would be so stupid, but hey, you really think it's impossible with all the stupid sh!t people do just on Real TV. Some of the same people who beat me uyp over deleting that thread are also replying in this one and others on the site about all the BS and unsafe info. Go figure. :roll:

Don't get me wrong... There is also some very sage and detailed info on this site that is 100% perfect. There are experienced climbers who are willing to answer questions. The thing is you need to find the diamonds in the rough. It is here, and you don't have to look far, just realize that all users are not experts even though most claim or talk like they are.


Treat all that you read on this site as suspect, until you KNOW otherwise. Just as there are 40 year old men who pretend to be 16 year old girls on the Net, 20 year old climbers pretend to be experienced hardmen and spray and split hairs at the drop of a hat.


Let's face it... Climbing is becoming very popular, and there are new climbers coming to the site in droves. They out number the truely experienced by probably a ratio of 25:1. Hell, I've climbed a lot, and in well over 10 states, but I still have only been climbing for 4 1/2 years. While I consider myself an experienced and competent Trad climber, I am still not an expert.

There are some really skilled and experienced climbers on this site, but they tend to be on the humble side, and at times even get drowned out by the droves of spraying plastic pulling hardmen here, or just end up throwing their hands up trying to talk sense into those who just think they know it all.



PLEASE, don't take yourself so seriously that we end up reading about you in the Accidents & Injuries Forum. Most things in life allow us to learn from our mistakes, but in climbing, our mistakes can kill us the first time we make them.



Note - I have climbed much with Tim, and trust him with my life. He is a knowledgeable and skilled climber. He is VERY safety concious, even more so than I am probably. I value safety and efficiency, whereas he values safety and more redundancy than is required at times. Nothing bad about that.



And again... Amber, super glad you are OK. Karen and I really like you and enjoyed your company in SLC.

Two friends tried to slow me down from aid climbing, both of whom are experienced aid climbers and members of this site. The rest of my friends (both online and off) were either too subtle, timid, or unaware to say anything.

Was'nt there, just trying to figure out what happened based on what I've read here. She said she tried to do a "180' rappel with 100' of rope", which means she had to pull up the lead line to double it so she could do a double line rap. But there's NO WAY her partner should'nt have noticed her making this critical error, and that suddenly there was only ONE ROPE hanging in front of him at his belay. If I had a bonked chick above me setting up a rappel at the end of a long day I'd be watching her like a hawk...plus they had radios. Again I wasn't there, and I hope there's a few more things I need to have explained to me...

Was'nt there, just trying to figure out what happened based on what I've read here. She said she tried to do a "180' rappel with 100' of rope", which means she had to pull up the lead line to double it so she could do a double line rap. But there's NO WAY her partner should'nt have noticed her making this critical error, and that suddenly there was only ONE ROPE hanging in front of him at his belay. If I had a bonked chick above me setting up a rappel at the end of a long day I'd be watching her like a hawk...plus they had radios. Again I wasn't there, and I hope there's a few more things I need to have explained to me...

I have listened to these "experts" say, "I've never done_____, but...",

*As responsible climbers we need to tell people when we see something we think is unsafe, instead of bash or flame them, or worse ignore it. We need more of the experienced climbers to take an interest in the newer ones.*

That's what I'm doing. When you say you're competent and experienced but not an expert, whatever that means, and that somebody who (apparently) fails to notice that their partner is rapping 180' on only one rope "values safety and redundancy more than is required", then I see something unsafe.