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pk
Apr 8, 2004, 5:17 AM
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amber and tim no offence to this at all, but there is nothing more to take from this post that has already been said? From here on out I see this as being nothing more than malicious (sp) on your parts.
This is what it is the internet! whom ever can post their own opinions on what you did right or wrong without ever getting to the point. This was a tragic event that occured and you both live to tell about it.
There is alot of relevant information to be had from the 11 pages of posts here atm. There has been alot of great information of what happened and what should have happened! Can we take this information for what it's worth now or spiral it down a path that will lead to something less informative as far as rants raves etc.
I for one as have stated I am very appreciative of the thought put into your TR but can we stop it here before it gets malicious? I think your initial intentions (sp) have been more than honorable but I feel this cannot go much further.
An article or submitting this to a mag for further inspection is all I can see constructive comming from this any further.
I know you would like nothing more than the climbing community to learn from your mistakes, but I do not believe at this point in this thread that this will be accomplished any more than it has been.
P.K.
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pk
Apr 8, 2004, 5:21 AM
Post #177 of 457
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wow I'm tired the above was ridled with mispellings and grammer errors
P.K.
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timpanogos
Apr 8, 2004, 5:26 AM
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Amber
Ok, nuts learning curve
November time frame – I start playing on a 50’ 5.12 bolt ladder – one hook move – first attempt, solo, it’s cold can’t recruit a partner. After feeling ok about this, I move next door to about a 100’ c2 crack – I solo on this for awhile. I practice the various aspects of solo aid here
January, weather breaks I head for Zion, Prodigal Son Solo attempt. I remember my first little epic very well – to make a long story short – I’m at the first anchor – with a world record clusterfetch and a 120 pound pig hanging off my atc – being a major part of that clusterfetch
Same feeling – “something is wrong, something is dead wrong” – you know the “oh shizt” feeling. Only this is January , there is not a SOUL in the park, I’m alone – I’m – exhausted, hungry, thirsty, cold – it’s getting dark, my light and warm clothing is in the pig – clustered 15’ below me and I’m in a very very bad situation – and there is no one that is going to miss or find me until morning…. On and on.
It’s just minor stuff – but I had to escape a belay, gather what rope I could manage (most of it was partying with the pig), rap down about 20’, work for what seemed like hours upside down under the pig trying to free things up …. On and on…
So I do know the feeling of terror – dang I’m in trouble here … had several of these to various degrees – all on solo attempts – yes I’m a gumby and inexperienced, but the majority of the experience that I have gained has been on the solo sharp end of the rope.
Aid is problem solving, gumbies can make real hard problems when starting even on that easy c1 stuff! I have worked through a few of them. I’m certain there are more on the horizon – heck that’s why I aid.
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jackscoldsweat
Apr 8, 2004, 5:27 AM
Post #180 of 457
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In reply to: i'll be the first to tell you that luck saved my ass. however, the point that people are trying to make with regards to my courage is my willingness to talk so candidly about how my naivete and ambition damn near cost me my life.
Personally, I don't think luck had anything to do with you surviving such a fall. I believe you said it right the 1st time. That someone with bigger plans for your future allowed you to survive. Miracles happen every day all over the world Amber.
Your admitted attitude previous to taking on such a climb and possibly many other climbs before this particular one, is what angers me. I'm glad to see your perspective of this radical hobby of ours change. Too bad it took such a scare to convince you what Kodos says he already knows.
JCS
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woozle
Apr 8, 2004, 5:53 AM
Post #181 of 457
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:shock:
Wow. Being diabetic and not knowing any other diabetics who climb this REALLY hits home. Going hypo really messes your ability to think straight. In fact I go into autopilot mode when I go hypoglycemic. Unfortunately autopilot doesn't know how to rapell hundreds of feet from the deck.
Glad you made it out. Gives me a lot of things to think about when I climb next.
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gravitysucks
Apr 8, 2004, 6:37 AM
Post #183 of 457
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In reply to: Tim, not trying to take sides, but try reading vicents post again. You simply enforced what vicent already pointed out. That it was Luck. Either that or my reading comprehension sucks. Which very well might be the case. JCS In reply to: Yes, your reading comprehension sucks. Yet another brutally honest admission though. I'm proud of you too. Curt
[indigo]curt, I think your propensity for condescension sucks. jack was simply pointing out a technicality. if you want us to respect your thoughts, try discerning between emotion and logic. reaction without awareness is primal. I'd like to think we're more evolved than that.[/indigo]
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curt
Apr 8, 2004, 7:00 AM
Post #184 of 457
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In reply to: In reply to: Tim, not trying to take sides, but try reading vicents post again. You simply enforced what vicent already pointed out. That it was Luck. Either that or my reading comprehension sucks. Which very well might be the case. JCS In reply to: Yes, your reading comprehension sucks. Yet another brutally honest admission though. I'm proud of you too. Curt [indigo]curt, I think your propensity for condescension sucks. jack was simply pointing out a technicality. if you want us to respect your thoughts, try discerning between emotion and logic. reaction without awareness is primal. I'd like to think we're more evolved than that.[/indigo]
No, little Gumby, Jack was posting in support of these comments by Vincent:
In reply to: YEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSS KODOS !!!!!! thanks for finally putting a cork in this jizzfest. if i read , "Thanks for your courage in sharing your TR" one more time i think i'll puke all over my mouse. how much courage does it take to get lucky???
which I find to be quite inappropriate, condescending and judgemental.
Curt
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gravitysucks
Apr 8, 2004, 7:50 AM
Post #185 of 457
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Tim, not trying to take sides, but try reading vicents post again. You simply enforced what vicent already pointed out. That it was Luck. Either that or my reading comprehension sucks. Which very well might be the case. JCS In reply to: Yes, your reading comprehension sucks. Yet another brutally honest admission though. I'm proud of you too. Curt [indigo]curt, I think your propensity for condescension sucks. jack was simply pointing out a technicality. if you want us to respect your thoughts, try discerning between emotion and logic. reaction without awareness is primal. I'd like to think we're more evolved than that.[/indigo] No, little Gumby, Jack was posting in support of these comments by Vincent: In reply to: YEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSS KODOS !!!!!! thanks for finally putting a cork in this jizzfest. if i read , "Thanks for your courage in sharing your TR" one more time i think i'll puke all over my mouse. how much courage does it take to get lucky??? which I find to be quite inappropriate, condescending and judgemental. Curt
[indigo]I find your immediate regression to the sticks-and-stones phase "inappropriate, condescending and judgmental." does the truth presented in a dissenting opinion threaten you that much that your only response is to attempt to belittle me with your obviously emotionally-fueled responses?
when you suffer from the same affliction you accuse others of...where I'm from, we call those people: hypocrites. I think if YOUR reading comprehension were a little more up to par, you'd see that jack was not taking sides as he clearly stated in his post at the beginning.
and as for being a gumby or n00b or any other potentially "clever" retorts you may have for me, you have done nothing but further confirm my belief that wisdom and dignity has nothing to do with biological age.
curt, I am done with you. this is childish. and this is not my thread.
be safe,
gravitysucks[/indigo]
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cantbuymefriends
Apr 8, 2004, 9:34 AM
Post #186 of 457
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Excuse me, but the initial post started with "preface: i am the climber to whom flamer's cryptic post was referring,". What was that post?
Glad you made it!
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robbovius
Apr 8, 2004, 1:49 PM
Post #187 of 457
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Amber and Tim, sorry you had to take such a bad scare to provide us all with this valuable object lesson.
Amber, as a parent I can empathise directly with your feelings during the initial moment of panic and the relief thereafter.
I join in the ranks expressing gladness that you're injuries were relatively minor, and you were able to return here and relate this frightening cautionary tale.
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brianinslc
Apr 8, 2004, 2:23 PM
Post #188 of 457
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In reply to: moral of the story: there is no safe way to jump the learning curve. you'll pay your dues one way or the other. personally, i think it makes better sense to pay those dues on a 5.6 in eldo than on a C1, 600' off the deck - but that's just my humble opinion.
That...is GREAT advice!
Get some miles, baby...
Brian in SLC
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cracklover
Apr 8, 2004, 3:38 PM
Post #189 of 457
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In reply to: In reply to: ...insulting and poorly thought out drivel... And out come the trolls. Amber, didn't I mention that most people are not going to 'learn' anything from this? I hope you have a thick skin, because Vincent is an excellent representative of the majority of people.
Yup, amber needs thick skin (don't we all). But you're wrong about most people not learning anything from this, and Amber should know that. The vast majority of us (probably closer to 90%) are quite able to take the lessons offered. And most of those are appreciative of the teacher. All over this site (and in TRW, as well) folks are saying "You've got to go take a look at that post", and it's not just voyeurism. Anyone with an ounce of self reflection can't help but at least stop and think about some of the issues the story, with its brutal honesty, brings up.
GO
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calamity_chk
Apr 8, 2004, 4:01 PM
Post #190 of 457
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In reply to: Excuse me, but the initial post started with "preface: i am the climber to whom flamer's cryptic post was referring,". What was that post?
flamer took somewhat of a beating because he wanted to allow me the chance to speak out about my own accident. several people seemed confused and frustrated .. "Scary accident- be careful out there"
In reply to: Same feeling – "something is wrong, something is dead wrong" – you know the "oh shizt" feeling. .. So I do know the feeling of terror – dang I'm in trouble here .. had several of these to various degrees – all on solo attempts – yes I'm a gumby and inexperienced, but the majority of the experience that I have gained has been on the solo sharp end of the rope.
chad, with all due respect, the terror that i felt as the rope was slipping through my hands was nowhere near "oh shizt" or "dang, i'm in trouble here" .. it was a terrible and dehumanizing feeling that cant really be expressed by words, primal terror is the only way that i know to describe it - but it's very humbling, to say the very least.
second, again with plenty of respect and compassion, but if you keep getting these feelings, then why not back off and do more routes that are more easily within your abilities for a while? you admit that you're a gumby and inexperienced, but seem dead-set on pushing the limits to an incredible degree when other, more experienced climbers are telling you that you need more training and experience before getting on that route. (note, this attitude is so familiar to me that i had to stop writing and go outside for a few minutes. re-read the part when i stopped falling and clipped into the daisy, "conversations came flooding back")
personally, i'm no where near qualified enough to know if you're ready for the WSR or not - and i'm certainly not trying to point fingers or judge anyone. believe me, i'll all-to-happy to sit in my little beginners seat for a bit right now.. BUT, read the narrative again, read my regrets, try to understand why it's called "ambition and ego". your attitude is the same as mine was, the same attitude that contributed to my fall and what, statistically speaking, should have been my death. we all want each other to succeed at climbing, but no one wants to see anyone die trying.
In reply to: Your admitted attitude previous to taking on such a climb and possibly many other climbs before this particular one, is what angers me. I'm glad to see your perspective of this radical hobby of ours change. Too bad it took such a scare to convince you
i agree and as i mentioned in the narrative itself, the gravity of my blind ambition has been both, soul shaking and grounding - and i also find it sad that it took such an incredibly close call in order for me to shut the hell up and listen to what people have been trying to tell me for the past year or so. i love climbing and was so obsessed with it that i almost paid the highest of prices for not having full respect for how many ways one can die trying to 'prove' themselves, when in reality, there really isnt anything to be proven. again, i'm happy that i lived so that i could learn this.
most of my partners have been climbing for almost a decade if not more, and i never realized how much i'd relied on their experience and judgment until i stepped out on my own. i see other beginning climbers with similar experience, skill, and attitude, and it's bone-chilling to me. this is why i decided to post the account of what happened. i'm willing to accept the humility in exchange for my life, and i'm willing to take the hard hits in exchange for helping other climbers with my previous attitude realize, vicariously through me, that blind ambition can kill you.
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dingus
Apr 8, 2004, 4:06 PM
Post #191 of 457
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http://rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=57274&forum=23
Care to comment anyone?
DMT
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diesel___smoke
Apr 8, 2004, 5:27 PM
Post #192 of 457
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In reply to: I analyzed the conditions very closely – very solid 3 bolt anchor, 12’ mandatory free traverse with 8 to 10 foot fall onto sloping ramp, penji onto anchor. I consciously choose to take the risk – even to the point of pushing myself for a clean ascent.
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't the route you took that fall on a C2?
In reply to: I will go back and try the same thing again.
What's that, pushing yourself for a clean ascent of a C2?
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rockdancer
Apr 8, 2004, 6:06 PM
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Wow. Amber, I'm so glad you are okay. I hope you are recovering, both physically and psychologically. Thank you for posting your story and being so honest and open about what mistakes were made, what your thought process was, all of it. You are lucky in so many ways, not the least of which is having wonderful people to climb with! Tim and the others should be commended. I will definitely keep your story in mind as I make decisions re: am I ready for something or not. Take care.
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sapphire
Apr 8, 2004, 6:35 PM
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Amber - what an incredible experience you lived through. As a beginner, I am grateful for your courage in telling your story and for your honesty in examining what went wrong. I have learned much from your story as well as the discussion generated by your post. and I've rethought out my climbing "goals" and priorities. I'm slowly realising that it is much more important to me to be climbing in general than what level I am at or how I compare to others. and the importance of practice, practice and more practice. Again, thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts and experience. I wish you all the best as you recover and as you continue to climb!
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holdplease2
Apr 8, 2004, 7:11 PM
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Hey Guys:
Based on Amber's referece to my profile in comparison to hers...and only because it was mentioned...
While on the surface our experiences look similar, they may, in fact, be a little different...this is one of the pitfalls to comparing yourself to people online and saying..."if he/she could do it, I can do it!" Not that amber did that, im just saying.
First: While I have only been aiding for a year, I climb almost full time, much of it aid. This allowed me to climb (solo) more than 50 pitches of aid (not all of them easy) and a wall before climbing moonlight buttress (see trip report "Hypothetical Balls - Moonlight in Winter). This is more "practice" than most wall gumbies get in a year.
Second: Because I taught myself (with about an hour of instruction from Smithclimber), I encountered many of the problems that a strong "mentor" would have helped Amber avoid...and had to solve those problems...alone. THIS is what yeilded a fairly good head and problem-solving skills...not just following what another me climber told me to do, which is the opposite extreem. SEE NEXT DISCLAIMER...
HOWEVER: I did all of this on borrowed time, and knew it. Many would say I am still on borrowed time, as I am still a gumby and probably an accident waiting to happen. All I can say is I believe that I am investing this borrowed time in learning...and hopefully this investment pays off before the clock runs out, but you never know.
I don't recommend that anyone learn the way I am...hugely risky
Regarding the learning process:
You can almost die learning (like I might have or may) or you can almost die because you never really learned but thought you had (like amber) or you can find a balance. Find the balance if you have a reason to live, like a kid, or a familiy, or whatever. Accept real risk or stop where you are.
If you are angry reading what Kodos and others wrote, read the words again, ignoring style, and listen. Many of us who wrote "niceties" also see the harder truth, much of which is posted by guys who are more apt to make waves than ourselves. That dosent mean that many we aren't thinking the similar things, it just means that, right or wrong, we didn't say it in a public forum.
Climbing is dangerous, don't let someone else be the one who keeps you theoretically "safe". Learn, practice, learn, practice, hold your own.
And don't compare your tick lists and years on the rock to someone elses to gauge your own ability. Everyone is different, more different than some internet profile or self-aggrandizing trip report will ever reflect.
-Kate.
Edited to fix minor errors
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dangle
Apr 8, 2004, 7:16 PM
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Thank you for such a bold and candid account of your experience in Zion. Every year I see wall aspirants with infectious enthusiasm but a dangerous lack of experience trying to jump from grade II to grade V because the other numbers look more reasonable. Hope they read your account and take your advice to heart.
Glad to hear you're OK
Cheers
DAngle (don't drop)
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iamthewallress
Apr 8, 2004, 7:19 PM
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Kate...that was a really exceptional post. Thanks.
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curt
Apr 8, 2004, 7:28 PM
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In reply to: If you are angry reading what Kodos and others wrote, read the words again, ignoring style, and listen. Many of us who wrote "niceties" also see the harder truth, much of which is posted by guys who are more apt to make waves than ourselves. That dosent mean that many we aren't thinking the similar things, it just means that, right or wrong, we didn't say it in a public forum.
The only problem I have with the drkodos post, I have already responded to. Kodos claims this could never happen to himself or other climbers who really know their stuff. I disagree. It could and it has.
Curt
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ambler
Apr 8, 2004, 7:47 PM
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In reply to: And don't compare your tick lists and years on the rock to someone elses to gauge your own ability. Everyone is different, more different than some internet profile or self-aggrandizing trip report will ever reflect.
There used to be some Yosemite campfire wisdom about preparation -- get fast on Grade IV's before trying a V; do 3 Grade V's before setting off on a VI. It made sense then, and although the world spins faster now, it might be worth keeping in mind when folks ask themselves "Am I ready?"
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b_fost
Apr 8, 2004, 7:54 PM
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so wait a minute...your arm took the force of the fall? i think i'm missing something here..
i am GLAD you are okay! hope you feel great
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Re: ambition & ego: my 160' fall in zion
[
