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robmcc
Apr 7, 2004, 2:06 PM
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In reply to: curt, thank you so much for the words of support. and just for the record, i'm still a climber - just a much more cautious one.
I stopped climbing over a much shorter, if every bit as potentially fatal, fall. You are an inspiration. Thanks for writing that story. I don't think there's anything at all to be embarassed about. You're just as human as the rest of us.
I'm glad you're still with us.
Rob
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timpanogos
Apr 7, 2004, 2:18 PM
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Am I understanding this right?
200’ – 160’ (pitch) – 10’ (Tim tie in) = 30’ of rope.
Amber unties from lead, threads 30’ of lead rope through rap ring and jumps on it for rappel? This was unimaginable operator error.
160 (pitch) – 30 (rap) – 20 (above lower anchor) = 110’ fall
200’ (rope) – 10’ (Tim tie-in ) / 2 = 95’ + 20’ (above lower anchor) = 115’
The top most piece of uncleaned gear must have been about 115’ from the lower anchor
115’ + 30’(rap distance) = 145’ – sounds pretty close.
Sounds like the lead rope right above the high pro must have done the entanglement in passing – that would have left about 60’ of free rope to miracle wrap (30’ of potential rope burn) around Amber.
Wow
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brianinslc
Apr 7, 2004, 2:19 PM
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First off...whew...glad your ok...that's about a close a call as a person could have...
Was the lead rope still through one side of the ATC? That might explain how the fall was arrested as the shock would have been dissapated by that rope?
Good thing the route wasn't any steeper (!!).
Also good think that there was a bit of pro in the crack...one less piece placed and...eeeek.
Wow. Once again, really happy to hear everyone's ok.
Huge lessons to be learned here...thanks a bunch for sharing!
Brian in SLC
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bnjohns
Apr 7, 2004, 2:53 PM
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As everyone else is saying, this is an astonishing story, and I thank you for having the guts to tell it. Also, thanks for the level of detail in your account, and for your honest replies to people's questions on this thread. Glad you're OK.
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sarcat
Apr 7, 2004, 3:07 PM
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Thanks for the recount of the accident.. It makes me not feel so bad I've really only done sport climbing all these years. It also makes me want to take up the challenge of trad. Confusion.....
Glad you're OK. Make sure you give that kid of yours a kiss everyday.
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cracklover
Apr 7, 2004, 4:18 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: So, the 20ft left of the lead line somehow reached amber 160ft later? i'm baffled. Don't worry, I was too. Apparently, due to unimaginably chance occurence, the free end wrapped around amber's arm as she was falling. (Remember, it went through the anchor, and the other side of her ATC, and started whipping down towards the belay once it freed itself, at the same time as she was plummeting) At some point, the rope lashed several times around her arm and an aider/daisy, as well as getting caught somewhere up there. This is what succeeded in stopping her, in addition to the far end having been fixed (it was my tether to the anchor, so of course I did not untie that!). I have never seen anything like it, and I've been climbing (trad, multipitch, lots of places) for almost a decade now. I'm not some seasoned wall veteran (only been up 2) but this was far beyond what the odds would predict. I really can't emphasize how long it took me to piece together what happened -- this was sheer luck/grace/coincidence. It took hours for me to put together all the pieces -- and I was there, watching the rope come tight! The odds against what happened, happening, have got to be astronomical. But it happened.
First of all - what an incredible story. Glad you had the heart to write it up, Amber. It was nice to meet you the other day, and I hope that you have a full and a speedy recovery, both physically *and* emotionally.
Now to the accident. I think I'm pretty clear on what happened based on all the cluess y'all have presented. Let me know if I've misunderstood anything.
It now seems clear that it was *not* the rope running up to the rap anchor that caught, but the *other side* of that rope, the one running down from the back side of Amber's rappel device to Tim, that caught her. Once I explain my reasoning I think it'll become obvious that this makes much more sense.
The clues:
1 - Tim's end of the lead rope, tied to the anchor, was taut after Amber's fall was arrested.
2 - Tim was easily able to pull the rope free.
Here's the first and most compelling thing to be drawn from these facts - if the rope *above* Amber had caught well enough to have arrested her fall, Tim would never have been able to pull it free afterwards. But it makes sense that the lead rope running up from Tim's anchor was taut, because it was running up through those yellow Aliens to the top piece of gear still in the crack, and then down to Amber. This was the line that was holding Amber. Essentially, Amber took a standard lead fall, except that instead of the end of the rope being tied to her, there was a tangle of rope with one end running through the rappel device and the rest caught around her arm and the gear attached to her harness. And naturally Amber couldn't pull this rope it free after she moved onto her anchor, because it was attached to Tim's belay station.
So the important rope to think about as the accident happens is the one running down from her rappel device, through the remaining gear, and to Tim's belay station. Let's think about this rope. Before the moment when Amber fell, this rope would have had no tension on it, and would have been trailing out directly below her. While she was not exactly *likely* to became entangled in it as she fell, it's not unlikely either when you think about the fact that the rope started off below her and slack, and she fell through it. So once she's tangled in that line, all that has to happen is for one of those yellow aliens to hold, and you've got a standard lead fall.
I hope that makes some sense to other folks. I can often see things clearly in my mind, but language is not my strongest suit.
Again, both Tim and Amber, thanks for sharing a truly amazing story, and while I can't contribute anything to your healing, I hope I may have at least contributed some clarity to the sequence of events.
GO
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pyrosis
Apr 7, 2004, 4:25 PM
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Wow.
We are all very lucky that you are okay. Amber, thank you so much for writing about this.
Tavis
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holdplease2
Apr 7, 2004, 4:42 PM
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Amber, glad you are still here, and thank you for sharing your report, including insights into how decision-making both prior to and during the climb impacted you that day, your introspection is valuable.
Sorry to do this...but
If amber had both ends of the line threaded thru the ATC...and the short end of the rope came up through the ATC and out, she would have then fallen with the anchored end of the rope ripping throught the ATC as she went past the gear that it was still threaded through, and the short, unanchored side of the rope would have been flying up and through the anchors.
As amber neared the end of the rope that then went from Tims anchor, up through the highest remaining gear, and down to her through her ATC... the end of the rope whipping would have been pretty violent as it neared her ATC.
This is what caused it to wrap around her aiders/gear/arm...right?
Additionally, a bit of friction from the line still in the ATC may have slowed the fall a bit. Also, the dynamic nature of almost a full rope length out is what kept her arm in tact?
This visualizes pretty well and makes sense.
Thank you, again, Amber, for sharing your experience from such an emotional, logistical, and analytical perspective.
-Kate.
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billiebob
Apr 7, 2004, 4:58 PM
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I had just composed a post nearly identical to cracklover's, but his/hers was posted first.
I agree that it is MUCH MORE LIKELY the lead line was still threaded through the ATC on her harness, and THAT is what took most of the energy of the fall. The rope wrapped around the arm locked the device, which still slipped enough (as it's supposed to) to burn the heck out of her. In this scenario the top piece could have held her. It makes perfect physical sense.
If she had gone far enough to pull the 60' of rope through the ATC completely, there would have been nothing for her to get tangled in EXCEPT the lead rope running through the lower pieces. In this case it would be unlikely for both her arm to get "wrapped" (the line would be slightly tensioned) AND hold the force of a longer fall with much less rope out.
BUT
Despite this low probability, it was stated that once she unwrapped her arm, there was no other connection to the rope at all. No ATC! If the ATC had indeed caught her they would have had to unclip it, or at least pull many feet of rope through it.
By any scenario, this kind of luck is on par with Duane Raleigh's desert tower freefall, in which a rope trailing behind him as he plunged towards the deck snagged miraculously in a crack.
By the second, no ATC scenario, it's a miracle.
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madmax
Apr 7, 2004, 5:02 PM
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In reply to: squish, there are a million things that we could analyze and second guess, and I guarantee you that Amber and Tim have thought of them all. This thread is not the place to start doing that, however. The bottom line is that she did something stupid, and is still alive, and that we are all very grateful that she is all right. Let's just try not to let this thread fall into the depths of analysis, okay.
I think you're misinterpreting squish's intent. It seems squish is genuinely trying to understand what happened. Amber can correct me, but it seems like she made this post to offer some food for thought about big walling, rappelling, etc., and not to get sympathy from us. Squish is trying to digest the food Amber has given us. This thread is the perfect spot to analyze what happened, because its a little late to analyze what happened or what could have been done when you're hurling down a cliff at terminal velocity.
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calamity_chk
Apr 7, 2004, 5:05 PM
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First, I want to say thank you to everyone replying and PM'g. It means a lot to me that what happened to me is affecting so many other beginning climbers. I was ambitious and feel lucky to have survived my own ego. I'm also thankful for the incredible support coming from you guys. As an evil nazi admin, I'm generally forced to deal with complaints and putting out fires around here - it's refreshing and encouraging to see the positive side of people around here again.
I'm still overwhelmed and amazed by how wonderful the responses have been, and definitely appreciate the questions about what led to the fall and how it was arrested. Your kind words and insight have helped me process more emotional bs than you'll ever know - thank you. More than anything, I want people to learn from this. Most people who make as many cumulative mistakes as I did arent around to discuss what happened. I have an incredibly unique opportunity to do that and want to share it.
In reply to: Was the lead rope still through one side of the ATC? That might explain how the fall was arrested as the shock would have been dissapated by that rope?
In reply to: Thanks for the recount of the accident.. It makes me not feel so bad I've really only done sport climbing all these years. It also makes me want to take up the challenge of trad. Confusion.....
timpangos, i'm no mathematician, so i'll leave checking the formulas to tim or someone else who's more experienced than i. however, the pitch is 180', not 160'. tim did the calculations to guesstimate my fall at about 160' .. being a liberal arts student, my personal guesstimate is quite simply, "really effin far."
also, i'm not exactly certain how far below the anchors i was when i lost the rope, but 30' seems a bit generous. liberal arts student logic, the fall was arrested at about 20' above tim. i was closer to the anchors when i started to fall than i was to tim when the fall arrested; therefore, i was less than 20' away from the safety of my anchor when the fall commenced.
In reply to: Amber unties from lead, threads 30' of lead rope through rap ring and jumps on it for rappel? This was unimaginable operator error.
back to 'muscle memory' .. remember my rant in the aid forum last week? this narrative would be the grounds for those arguments. it's not like i've never setup a rappel before, and i'm not hopelessly incompetent, but a) a lot of things were going on physiologically that impaired my ability to think clearly; b) i have never set up a rappel in the dark when severely hypoglycemic.
aside from the rap errors, i kept getting my hand caught in the ATC for crying out loud. have you ever been so far out of it that you allowed the meaty part of your hand between your thumb and index finger to get pinched down into the ATC multiple times? i did it three times before losing the rope. conditions like this are why it's so important to be acutely aware of your own limitations and to have a proper foundation of safety and other basic systems before you start taking on routes that are truly physically challenging for you.
after talking with an untold number of people about the accident, though, my mistakes are unfortunately more common than most realize (certainly more common than i realized). obviously, i didnt make these mistakes on purpose but they're there, and after much deliberation, i decided to share the account so that other climbers who havent had severe close calls would realize how easy it is to make potentially fatal mistakes.
In reply to: As everyone else is saying, this is an astonishing story, and I thank you for having the guts to tell it. Also, thanks for the level of detail in your account, and for your honest replies to people's questions on this thread. Glad you're OK.
cracklover, your assumptions are exactly in line with tim's theory and my understanding of the most logical way that the fall was arrested.
In reply to: Amber, glad you are still here, and thank you for sharing your report, including insights into how decision-making both prior to and during the climb impacted you that day, your introspection is valuable.
In reply to: Sorry to do this...but |
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superdiamonddave
Apr 7, 2004, 5:06 PM
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:shock: Spooky :shock:
Sounds like your guardian angel was sharing your route. I'm glad to hear that you are in one piece. What a story you have to tell around any campfire anywhere! Way to hang tough 8)
***A BIG HUG for you***
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overlord
Apr 7, 2004, 5:10 PM
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this was kinda like winning a littery... go buy a ticket :wink:
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brianinslc
Apr 7, 2004, 5:19 PM
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In reply to: major mistakes: - overestimated my skill level and ability to safely function on autopilot, - underestimated the amount of work necessary for the climb, - didnt consider time to complete the pitch vs amount of daylight, - overestimated ability to think clearly when hypoglycemic, - didnt consider rope length vs pitch length when setting up rappel (should have joined the two ropes and was only rapping on lead line folded in half), - used improper knots at bottom of rope (overhand will push itself out when up against an ATC, better to use a barrel knot/fishermans with plenty of tail), - ineffective communication with my climbing partner, - didnt stop to periodically check amount of rope left as i was rappeling, - had no back system for rap, - panicked at go time.
Pretty sobering observations!
Couple of comments.
When I rap to clean a pitch after a lead, I like to be able to go "hands free". If you rigged to rappel single to clean the pitch, and rappelled on a gri gri, that would have worked pretty well. Or, you could have used your ATC and rigged an autoblock or french prussic from a biner on your leg loop. You could set up the haul line as a pull cord (using a "biner block on the lead line above the knot connecting the haul line to the lead/rappel rope, or a figure eight on a bite above the knot clipped back through the to-be-loaded lead rope below the anchor). This works kinda nice. Your partner can also fireman's belay you from below more easily too, as they only have to mind one rope. And, prior to jumping on rappel, its not too hard to check to see if you have it rigged right. And...since the pull cord and lead rope are still tied in below at the belay, there's that too. No knots in the ends of the rope needed.
If I feel the need to put a knot in the end of a rappel line, I use a figure eight on a bite, and a half fisherman's finish. That way, you have a loop to clip into if need be (and quickly, since you don't need to tie one, just clip in with a daisy/biner). Also a bit more unlikely to come undone, and won't feed thru an ATC.
Wow. Really glad we can all spray away about this and glad you're ok.
Double check, triple check!
Brian in SLC
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superdiamonddave
Apr 7, 2004, 5:21 PM
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Amber, the post title under your name right now is "Air Voyager". I think that's kinda appropriate for this thread. :wink:
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madmax
Apr 7, 2004, 5:22 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: it seems like she made this post to offer some food for thought about big walling, rappelling, etc., and not to get sympathy from us. This is true. I should probably let camhead speak for himself, but I think his concern was that the thread would turn into the typical finger-pointing flamewar instead of being a productive discussion aimed at raising awareness about safety.
As everyone else has already mentioned, kudos to you for posting this story. It take immense courage to admit ones own mistakes. The courage comes from the knowledge that one will be criticized for those mistakes. I think everyone has been respectful in their critiques and comments and this thread has not turned into a flamewar (unheard of in the history of RC.com for a thread that is six pages long).
Once again, thanks for story and insight, and I hope you're back on the walls soon.
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tim
Apr 7, 2004, 5:27 PM
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In reply to: If amber had both ends of the line threaded thru the ATC...and the short end of the rope came up through the ATC and out, she would have then fallen with the anchored end of the rope ripping throught the ATC as she went past the gear that it was still threaded through, and the short, unanchored side of the rope would have been flying up and through the anchors. As amber neared the end of the rope that then went from Tims anchor, up through the highest remaining gear, and down to her through her ATC... the end of the rope whipping would have been pretty violent as it neared her ATC. This is what caused it to wrap around her aiders/gear/arm...right?
I think this is correct. The only thing that doesn't make a lot of sense to me is why we didn't have to un-thread the ATC. But, maybe I am mis-remembering things -- it's wholly possible. I can't recall whether, once the haul line had been promoted and the load placed on it, Amber un-tangled from the lead line, or whether I un-fixed it from the belay. I believe she untangled.
It makes a lot more sense for the rope + aider to have jammed in the ATC, and the rope to have burned her hand + arm as she tried to grab it. The only thing I can't confirm is whether she un-threaded the ATC when I lowered her.
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calamity_chk
Apr 7, 2004, 5:29 PM
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In reply to: Despite this low probability, it was stated that once she unwrapped her arm, there was no other connection to the rope at all. No ATC! If the ATC had indeed caught her they would have had to unclip it, or at least pull many feet of rope through it.
when i started to fall, the long end of my rope was through the ATC. i dont recall unclipping the rope from the ATC before being lowered; however, when i untangled the mess from my arm, it would have put slack back in the line which would have permitted me to be lowered, correct?
maybe tim will pipe in later and will be able to comment on if he or doug unclipped the rope from the ATC when i got to rocker blocker. i dont remember doing it, but there are definite memory gaps in a few places. when i got to rocker blocker, they guys basically addressed all of the systems for me. i remember answering questions to evaluate my general awareness and talking about my son, but there's a distinct block of time that i cant remember all that well. things fuzz out when tim started lowering me and come back when we're talking rappels. a few details here and there, but not enough to articulate .. it's kinda like having a dream that you can "feel" but only half remember.
In reply to: By any scenario, this kind of luck is on par with Duane Raleigh's desert tower freefall, in which a rope trailing behind him as he plunged towards the deck snagged miraculously in a crack. |
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robmcc
Apr 7, 2004, 5:31 PM
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Lesson?
Not long ago I found myself, a born again n00b, on a ledge with my partner who is new to multipitch trad climbing. Not just new, but new, tired, cold, hungry, and stressed. And it was dark. I went into paranoid protective mode for the rap down. Double checked everything. Put her on rappel before I rapped down, but left her clipped in to the anchor so all she'd have to do is unclip and rappel with a fireman's belay from below, if needed. My body weight on the rope insured she couldn't move.
Amber's incident is so much bigger and the experience present here much greater than mine, so I'm not going to assert a lesson. Draw your own conclusions. They're as likely to be right as mine. I questioned after that whether I was being too paranoid. Amber's story makes me think that the answer to that, for me at least, is no. Especially not if I plan to keep the same climbing partner forever. And I do.
Rob
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curt
Apr 7, 2004, 5:32 PM
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Amber,
Because of a couple other posts here, I have a specific question about the accident. Do you recall, after your fall stopped--if one end of the rope was still threaded through your ATC? I am assuming the answer is no, but others have raised this issue in trying to envision exactly what happened.
Curt
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calamity_chk
Apr 7, 2004, 5:44 PM
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In reply to: I think everyone has been respectful in their critiques and comments and this thread has not turned into a flamewar (unheard of in the history of RC.com for a thread that is six pages long). Once again, thanks for story and insight, and I hope you're back on the walls soon.
This is true, the comments/critiques have been very respectful, and I'm incredibly thankful for the way that the discussion is developing.
I havent bothered trying to assign a date to when I'll be in aiders and on walls again, but I'm definitely counting on it. I still have a lot to learn though and want to make sure that I can run through systems and safety checks in my sleep before I get on something as enduring as a wall again.
Hopefully my next "Big Wall TR" will be more gleeful.
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holdplease2
Apr 7, 2004, 5:44 PM
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Amber and Tim:
If the gear remained more than half a rope-length up the climb, then the rope would have unthreaded itself from the ATC as amber was lowered past the end after untangling the gear/aiders from her arm/rope.
Likely, the tail of the rope wrapped around gear/arm enough that it pulled tight on the ATC in "stop" mode, arresting the fall.
Unweighting the mess of gear would have allowed the rope to feed gently thru the atc as amber was lowered. With enough gear on and two ropes in the system, it is possible that this could have happened without Amber even noticing.
Thankfull for the opportunity to learn from this, Amber.
-Kate.
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Re: ambition & ego: my 160' fall in zion
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