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reno


Apr 16, 2008, 12:06 AM
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Re: [dreday3000] Concern about coffee [In reply to]
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dreday3000 wrote:
I'm weighing in on Joe Forte's side here. Coffee dilates, not constricts, capillaries

Nope.

Caffeine has an antagonistic effect on Adenosine A2a receptors. Stimulation of those receptors causes vasodilation. Thus, the antagonistic effect is vasoconstriction.

While one could argue that caffeine does not vasoconstrict DIRECTLY, it would be wrong to say it vasodilates.


shoo


Apr 16, 2008, 12:29 AM
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As a long-time coffee drinker, I fairly regularly switch out my regular brew for the decaf version of the same (Trader Joe's House Blend, if you're wondering) when I'm going on some kind of excursion. It's definitely not the same thing, but it does the trick well enough that it's worth it. I'd rather be concentrating on my climbing than peeing all day.


reno


Apr 16, 2008, 12:32 AM
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Re: [shoo] Concern about coffee [In reply to]
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shoo wrote:
As a long-time coffee drinker, I fairly regularly switch out my regular brew for the decaf version of the same (Trader Joe's House Blend, if you're wondering) when I'm going on some kind of excursion.

Don't tell anyone, but I've been known to do a "half-caf" version for similar trips. Couple scoops of normal, and a couple scoops of "The D-word!" into a bag, shake, and use at camp.

Don't tell anyone, though, m'kay?


Truck


Apr 16, 2008, 12:52 AM
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Re: [j_ung] Concern about coffee [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Don't badmouth coffee, motherfucker!


Without Coffee there would be no Coffee break and you would have to work straight through to lunch.....so just shut up and drink it already and don't worry about having to pee.

Truck


jdefazio


Apr 16, 2008, 1:03 AM
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Decaf proves that Satan is real.


Sin


Apr 16, 2008, 1:15 AM
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Just drink tea......Crazy


miavzero


Apr 16, 2008, 4:07 AM
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If this thread is about coffee, give me tea. If this thread is about tea, give me coffee.Wink


rockvaulter


Apr 16, 2008, 6:31 AM
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Re: [miavzero] Concern about coffee [In reply to]
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miavzero wrote:
If this thread is about coffee, give me tea. If this thread is about tea, give me coffee.Wink

Hell just give me something with caffine. Sometimes I like to follow up my Coffee with Coke (the drink not the drug) or even a Red Bull.Crazy


sungam


Apr 16, 2008, 10:45 AM
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Re: [rockvaulter] Concern about coffee [In reply to]
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rockvaulter wrote:
miavzero wrote:
If this thread is about coffee, give me tea. If this thread is about tea, give me coffee.Wink

Hell just give me something with caffine. Sometimes I like to follow up my Coffee with Coke (the drink not the drug) or even a Red Bull.Crazy

Tea has the same effect, so does the bull, and any other caffine based energy drink.
It's the caffine causing the issues.

Reno: In what little biological studies I've done, I'm sure I heard that caffine stimulates A2a receptors.
Hence the effects would be increased bloodflow to the surface of the skin and muscles, causing increased muscle performance and greater heat loss.


viciado


Apr 16, 2008, 10:55 AM
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Re: [reno] Concern about coffee [In reply to]
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reno wrote:
dreday3000 wrote:
I'm weighing in on Joe Forte's side here. Coffee dilates, not constricts, capillaries

Nope.

Caffeine has an antagonistic effect on Adenosine A2a receptors. Stimulation of those receptors causes vasodilation. Thus, the antagonistic effect is vasoconstriction.

While one could argue that caffeine does not vasoconstrict DIRECTLY, it would be wrong to say it vasodilates.

While not necessarily a definitive source :

Caffeine is metabolized in the liver by the cytochrome P450 oxidase enzyme system (specifically, the 1A2 isozyme) into three metabolic dimethylxanthines,[38] which each have their own effects on the body:

Paraxanthine (84%): Has the effect of increasing lipolysis, leading to elevated glycerol and free fatty acid levels in the blood plasma.
Theobromine (12%): Dilates blood vessels and increases urine volume. Theobromine is also the principal alkaloid in cocoa, and therefore chocolate.
Theophylline (4%): Relaxes smooth muscles of the bronchi, and is used to treat asthma. The therapeutic dose of theophylline, however, is many times greater than the levels attained from caffeine metabolism.
Each of these metabolites is further metabolized and then excreted in the urine.


munky


Apr 16, 2008, 11:14 AM
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Re: [viciado] Concern about coffee [In reply to]
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CLIMBING WITHOUT COFFEE IS JUST PLAIN UNCIVILIZED DAMN IT!


joeforte


Apr 16, 2008, 11:25 AM
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Thanks for the additional proof that it is a vasodilator. It INCREASES blood flow to the extremities.

I did a quick google search for "caffeine vasodilator" and came up with tons of hits that said it is a smooth muscle relaxer and an overall vasodilator.


reno


Apr 16, 2008, 1:21 PM
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Re: [viciado] Concern about coffee [In reply to]
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www.rxlist.comcgi/generic/ergot_ad.htm

www.emedicine.com/emerg/TOPIC949.HTM

The first is written by a clinical pharmacologist. The second by an emergency physician.

It does dilate the bronchioles, that is true. But it constricts the blood vessels.


cchas


Apr 16, 2008, 3:03 PM
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Re: [joeforte] Concern about coffee [In reply to]
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joeforte wrote:
Thanks for the additional proof that it is a vasodilator. It INCREASES blood flow to the extremities.

I did a quick google search for "caffeine vasodilator" and came up with tons of hits that said it is a smooth muscle relaxer and an overall vasodilator.

And you believe shit written on the web. YEAH, right.

Do a search on PUBMED looking only in peer reviewed journal articles.

A co-worker of mne and I had this discussion since he used to talk about this with his wife's PhD advisor who was a world reknown expert on affects of caffiene. The physiological affects are many and most of them beneficial to the athlete but for most of us, our bodies are basically saturated and to have the effects that are shown in the literature you'd have to really up your dose. If you are looking at it for a training aid, I'd cut back on your intake except for those times when you need it as a preformance aid.


kachoong


Apr 16, 2008, 3:40 PM
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Re: [j_ung] Concern about coffee [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
Don't badmouth coffee, motherfucker! Mad

Tongue

Coffee is the devil!!!!! Mad


roy_hinkley_jr


Apr 16, 2008, 3:55 PM
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Re: [reno] Concern about coffee [In reply to]
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reno wrote:
www.rxlist.comcgi/generic/ergot_ad.htm

www.emedicine.com/emerg/TOPIC949.HTM

The first is written by a clinical pharmacologist. The second by an emergency physician.

It does dilate the bronchioles, that is true. But it constricts the blood vessels.

Your first citation is mostly about ergot suppositories.

The second contains this quote "acts as an adenosine antagonist, resulting in peripheral vasodilatation and CNS stimulation. Caffeine is a potent releaser of catecholamines (norepinephrine and, to a lesser extent, epinephrine) that increases cardiac chronotropic and inotropic activity, bronchodilation, and peripheral vasodilatation."

The diuretic effect of coffee is so mild that it does not cause dehydration.


taydude


Apr 16, 2008, 3:55 PM
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I pretty much only drink coffee before comps or on the way to the crag. I find I climb much better with coffee than without.


reno


Apr 16, 2008, 7:31 PM
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Re: [roy_hinkley_jr] Concern about coffee [In reply to]
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roy_hinkley_jr wrote:
Your first citation is mostly about ergot suppositories.

Yep. Guess what the primary ingredient is?

In reply to:
The second contains this quote "acts as an adenosine antagonist, resulting in peripheral vasodilatation and CNS stimulation. Caffeine is a potent releaser of catecholamines (norepinephrine and, to a lesser extent, epinephrine) that increases cardiac chronotropic and inotropic activity, bronchodilation, and peripheral vasodilatation."

Whoa. I read that wrong. I can't imagine it's a typo, but it is in conflict with almost everything I've ever read.

It certainly flies in the face of this:

http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/85/1/154

Which states caffeine is a vasoconstrictor (again, via the blockade of Adenosine receptor sites.)

Regardless of the conflict, caffeine is a member of the xanthine derivative class, and those are all constrictors of blood vessels.

In reply to:
The diuretic effect of coffee is so mild that it does not cause dehydration.

Agreed, unless you're drinking multiple pots at a time.


roquentin


Apr 17, 2008, 3:33 AM
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I think I found The Answer. Caffeine does nothing to forearm blood flow (FBF) at baseline, but augments certain kinds of vasodilation.

Am J Cardiol. 2006 Dec 1;98(11):1538-41.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17126666?ordinalpos=11&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

From the discussion section of the article:

In reply to:
Some investigators have hypothesized that caffeine is a vasoconstrictive substance.3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 In the present study, systolic and diastolic blood pressures were elevated after caffeine ingestion, suggesting vasoconstrictive effects of caffeine.5 Caffeine should be an antagonist of the adenosine receptor.10 and 11 It is well known that adenosine induces vasodilation. Therefore, antagonization of the adenosine receptor could induce vasoconstriction. However, although oral caffeine ingestion did not change baseline FBF, FBF response to ACh was significantly increased in the caffeine group. Hatano et al12 reported that caffeine promotes nitric oxide synthesis in the endothelium by the release of Ca2+ from the endoplasmic reticulum through activation of the ryanodine-sensitive Ca2+ channel and the suppression of cyclic guanosine monophosphate degradation in the isolated rat aorta, resulting in the caffeine-induced augmentation of endothelium-dependent vasodilatation. In the present study, l-NMMA, a nitric oxide synthase inhibitor, completely abolished the caffeine-induced augmentation of endothelium-dependent vasodilation. These findings suggest that caffeine augments endogenous nitric oxide production by agonist stimulation. A balance of the vasodilatory effect of caffeine as an endothelium-dependent vasodilator and the vasoconstrictive effect of caffeine as an adenosine receptor antagonist may regulate vascular function.


viciado


Apr 17, 2008, 11:22 AM
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That was helpful, but it only answers the vascular question... and leaves it open regarding the net effect. Gotta love scientists!

The jury seems to be out regarding the definitive effects of caffeine on athletic performance. Most literature indicates an acceptance of the idea that caffeine may effect endurance positively, but the actual mechanism appears to be its action as a stimulant. The tests (too many to list: Google caffeine, athletic performance) most related to this were performed on marathon athletes over periods of about two hours. More importantly, all of the studies indicate that the effects of caffeine vary widely between test subjects. The variance is due to differences in metabolism, diet, and habits/frequency of caffeine intake. So the answer is, as appeared on the first page: It depends.

IMHO: While caffeine may influence your performance on any given day, you are more likely to experience greater benefits from adequate rest, proper diet and hydration than from the use (or lack of) of caffeine. That does not speak to your attitude when your feet hit the floor in the morning or potential withdrawl if you suddenly stop drinking that morning espresso!


Tree_wrangler


Apr 17, 2008, 3:26 PM
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Re: [viciado] Concern about coffee [In reply to]
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In reply to:
While caffeine may influence your performance on any given day, you are more likely to experience greater benefits from adequate rest, proper diet and hydration than from the use (or lack of) of caffeine.

Bingo.

In reply to:
That does not speak to your attitude when your feet hit the floor in the morning or potential withdrawl if you suddenly stop drinking that morning espresso!

Also 100% correct. The taste and aroma are superb, and I'm wretchedly addicted. Whatever, I do what I want!


csproul


Apr 17, 2008, 5:46 PM
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Re: [reno] Concern about coffee [In reply to]
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reno wrote:
dreday3000 wrote:
I'm weighing in on Joe Forte's side here. Coffee dilates, not constricts, capillaries

Nope.

Caffeine has an antagonistic effect on Adenosine A2a receptors. Stimulation of those receptors causes vasodilation. Thus, the antagonistic effect is vasoconstriction.

While one could argue that caffeine does not vasoconstrict DIRECTLY, it would be wrong to say it vasodilates.
I don't know about this ligand and receptor...but a ligand can be a agonist in one cell type and and an antagonist in another cell type and use the same receptor (functional selectivity). Receptors most alway activate more than one second messenger and can have competing outcomes depending on which pathway is more prevelent. I doubt that caffeine is very selective for the A2a receptor at the concentrations found after drinking coffee, and it is possible that there are other receptors that cause caffeine induced vaso-constriction/dilation or arterio-constriction/dilation depending on where those receptors are expressed. I guess what I'm saying is that you are most likely correct, but it is not as simple as saying that it antagonizes this receptor, therefore it must have this effect. There are many other factor that determne the physiologic effect.


(This post was edited by csproul on Apr 17, 2008, 9:01 PM)


reno


Apr 17, 2008, 10:07 PM
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Re: [csproul] Concern about coffee [In reply to]
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csproul wrote:
I guess what I'm saying is that you are most likely correct, but it is not as simple as saying that it antagonizes this receptor, therefore it must have this effect. There are many other factor that determne the physiologic effect.

You're probably correct, and I suppose I over-simplified. Wasn't my intent, but I do apologize for it.


xswimordiex


Apr 20, 2008, 3:04 AM
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i think this thread has gone too far. it's coffee! drink it up!


csproul


Apr 21, 2008, 1:51 AM
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xswimordiex wrote:
i think this thread has gone too far. it's coffee! drink it up!
How’s this for too far…I know a professor who studies skin cancer. He does not consume caffeine because it inhibits enzymes that are responsible for activating cell cycle checkpoints that allow time for DNA repair pathways to work (when DNA is damaged by ultraviolet light). He believes that caffeine increases your probability of developing skin cancer. Seems a little farfetched to me, but then again, he is a lot smarter than I am.

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