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saskclimber
Dec 1, 2004, 7:41 PM
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In reply to: To each their own. People fall and get hurt roped up too. Just because you fell doesn't mean everyone will there champ.... |
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epic_ed
Dec 1, 2004, 7:52 PM
Post #27 of 48
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In reply to: In reply to: To each their own. People fall and get hurt roped up too. Just because you fell doesn't mean everyone will there champ.... I'd be willing to bet that theres more injuries incurred in a fall while fs'ing than while roped up :P
And I'll bet you're wrong. Free soloing injuries tend to be more drastic (often fatal), but these incidents also tend to make headlines. When was the last time you heard of someone who died soloing? I think there was a guy earlier this year, but not often. On the other hand, how often do you hear of someone who got dropped by their belay partner because they weren't paying attention to the rope? Several times a year, from my experience.
Take a look at it from a percentages perspective, too. The percent of climbers who will go free soloing this weekend is a relatively small slice of the pie in the bigger picture of all the climbers will climb this weekend. What percentag of free soloist this weekend will auger themselves into the dirt? I'd say it very small -- hundredths of a percent if not 0%. How many, out of the rest of the percentage of climbers will sustain a significant injury? This includes broken bones, sprains, rope burns, and deaths. I'm willing to bet it will be greater than the percentage of soloist who get hurt.
Ed
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saskclimber
Dec 1, 2004, 8:31 PM
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in response, sure, there's more accidents that happen while on rope than while freesoloing (because of sheer number). But if 10 people bail off a wall while roped up (notice tha bail includes even just peeling off a hold), and 10 people bail while free soloing, what are the odds that the fs group will result in more (and more serious) injuries...
Notice I never said "decking out" was the only fall while being roped. Theres also whips that swing into the wall, and hitting stuff on the way to the point where the rope is loaded too. Not every fall results in a deck.
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tradmanclimbs
Dec 1, 2004, 10:00 PM
Post #30 of 48
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Sorry but i gotta stand up for epic ed on this one. the guy is obviously a noob and he screwed up and got hurt. Now he is passing judgement on the rest of the climbing community as how they should climb based on his noob experience.
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joe
Dec 1, 2004, 10:08 PM
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nothing to read here.
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epic_ed
Dec 1, 2004, 10:10 PM
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In reply to: Is your username now "Expert Ed"? So what if this so called "nOOb" wants to rattle off advice, we don't have to take it.
Nope. I'm no expert, which is why I'm not the one telling you what kind of risks you should or shouldn't take. Even if I were the grizzled veteran climber that you are, I still wouldn't dream of telling you shouldn't solo.
It's a common n00b phenomenon to have an epiphany of some sort early in their climbing career, suddenly feel like they've been-there-done-that, and then attempt to speak on all matters climbing like they are an expert. I think it's great that he wanted to pass along his close call with the rest of us, but I take exception to him trying to make the leap into my or YOUR climbing life and tell me what the feck I should do. N00bs do this kind of crap all the time. It just happens to by my turn to tell him to STFU.
Ed
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pt
Dec 1, 2004, 10:19 PM
Post #33 of 48
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In reply to: In reply to: Is your username now "Expert Ed"? So what if this so called "nOOb" wants to rattle off advice, we don't have to take it. Nope. I'm no expert, which is why I'm not the one telling you what kind of risks you should or shouldn't take. Even if I were the grizzled veteran climber that you are, I still wouldn't dream of telling you shouldn't solo. It's a common n00b phenomenon to have an epiphany of some sort early in their climbing career, suddenly feel like they've been-there-done-that, and then attempt to speak on all matters climbing like they are an expert. I think it's great that he wanted to pass along his close call with the rest of us, but I take exception to him trying to make the leap into my or YOUR climbing life and tell me what the feck I should do. N00bs do this kind of crap all the time. It just happens to by my turn to tell him to STFU. Ed
Good response, I kind of agree with you now. I mostly read his post as a story about his little epic, but yea, I can see how you would want to tell him to STFU!
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jasper
Dec 1, 2004, 10:26 PM
Post #34 of 48
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In reply to: In reply to: To each their own. People fall and get hurt roped up too. Just because you fell doesn't mean everyone will there champ.... I'd be willing to bet that theres more injuries incurred in a fall while fs'ing than while roped up :P
I don't think I explained my point clearly. It's seems the original poster is advocating that roped up climbing is much safer for 'everyone'. My feeling is that a solo climber is typically close to 100% confident that they will not fall. While most roped up climbers have the attitude that falling is fine, and I'd agree. So, what i'm getting at is that a far fewer percentage of solo climbers fall then roped up climbers. And, a fall while roped up is no guarantee that you're walking away injury free. As for your reply, you're right... given an equal number of falls, the roped up guys will likely come out on top 8^)
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crimpandgo
Dec 1, 2004, 10:29 PM
Post #35 of 48
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Is your username now "Expert Ed"? So what if this so called "nOOb" wants to rattle off advice, we don't have to take it. Nope. I'm no expert, which is why I'm not the one telling you what kind of risks you should or shouldn't take. Even if I were the grizzled veteran climber that you are, I still wouldn't dream of telling you shouldn't solo. It's a common n00b phenomenon to have an epiphany of some sort early in their climbing career, suddenly feel like they've been-there-done-that, and then attempt to speak on all matters climbing like they are an expert. I think it's great that he wanted to pass along his close call with the rest of us, but I take exception to him trying to make the leap into my or YOUR climbing life and tell me what the feck I should do. N00bs do this kind of crap all the time. It just happens to by my turn to tell him to STFU. Ed Good response, I kind of agree with you now. I mostly read his post as a story about his little epic, but yea, I can see how you would want to tell him to STFU!
I read the original post and did not get the feeling the person was attempting to tell you what to do with your life. What I got out of it was a person that felt lucky to be alive and wanted to share with others this revelation in hopes that other less familiar with their abilities might think twice before they attempt the same thing. maybe the original post wasn't meant for the experienced climber who has already made the decision that soloing was acceptable for them?
I don't think he should STFU. I think the people that have confidence in their abilities and in their life choices (like Epic Ed), should simply disregard.
For folks that have toyed with the idea of soloing and haven't done it yet, simply take the information for what it is worth... One person's real life experience.
Note: not trying to dis Epic_ed here. I respect your posts and the value you bring to topics here. Just offering a more objective view to a very "subjective" subject.
Peace
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epic_ed
Dec 1, 2004, 10:43 PM
Post #36 of 48
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Oh, believe me -- I don't solo. The above rant wasn't for my benefit. I guess this is what stood out to me the most when I read it:
- First, his title "Don't solo"
- Secondly:
In reply to: ... Never solo, wear protectve gear, and don't be over-confident. I know from experience that soloing seems the manly, brave, balsy thing to do, but when you are dead or laid out in a hospital bed it just looks dumb. I am glad it only took me a broken wrist and a messed up back to teach me a lesson.
I'm probably making way too much of this. I'll STFU now...
Ed
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crimpandgo
Dec 1, 2004, 11:05 PM
Post #37 of 48
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In reply to: Oh, believe me -- I don't solo. The above rant wasn't for my benefit. I guess this is what stood out to me the most when I read it: - First, his title "Don't solo" - Secondly: In reply to: ... Never solo, wear protectve gear, and don't be over-confident. I know from experience that soloing seems the manly, brave, balsy thing to do, but when you are dead or laid out in a hospital bed it just looks dumb. I am glad it only took me a broken wrist and a messed up back to teach me a lesson. I'm probably making way too much of this. I'll STFU now... Ed
Actually, I think both your views are correct. You reacted to the advice given. Its understandable given the fact that the advice surely does not apply to everyone.
Now, look at the quoted paragraph again. THis quote can be interpereted very differently when read by different audiences.
The first audience being the experienced persons that plan to solo and are fully prepared to accept the risks involved.
The second audience are people who thinking of soloing and think they are invincible and nothing like this could ever happen to them
The third audience are people who might not even be thinking of soloing nor the consequences but one day might go do it spontaneously just because their friend did it.. ..
Each audience will interperet the quote differently and each audience with have a different reaction to it. I am rambling but this is one major problem I have with written communication over verbal communication. THere is no way to interprete the poster nor the audience through writtten communication. All' you get is the written text. In verbal communication you tone of voice, facial expressions, etc. Well, actually there is by added additional posts, but my experience has been the post has already turned to flames before that level of understanding can occur :) Anyway, just some thoughts.
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abalch
Dec 1, 2004, 11:55 PM
Post #38 of 48
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In reply to: ..... My fiance has a fear of heights, so anything over 8 feet is a highball. It's all in the eyes of the beholder. Oh, and I haven't done any soloing since I got engaged, and frankly I really enjoy trad so I doubt I will solo again.
I will play grammar police, since everyone else always seem to enjoy it so much. I make the assumption from your profile that you are a man. Unless you are marrying another man, you would have a fiancee (with and accent over the first e). a woman who is betrothed to someone is that person's fiancee, and the man is the woman's fiance.
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crimpandgo
Dec 2, 2004, 4:44 AM
Post #39 of 48
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In reply to: In reply to: ..... My fiance has a fear of heights, so anything over 8 feet is a highball. It's all in the eyes of the beholder. Oh, and I haven't done any soloing since I got engaged, and frankly I really enjoy trad so I doubt I will solo again. I will play grammar police, since everyone else always seem to enjoy it so much. I make the assumption from your profile that you are a man. Unless you are marrying another man, you would have a fiancee (with and accent over the first e). a woman who is betrothed to someone is that person's fiancee, and the man is the woman's fiance.
Boring day at work eh?? :?
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saskclimber
Dec 2, 2004, 4:49 AM
Post #40 of 48
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In reply to: In reply to: ..... My fiance has a fear of heights, so anything over 8 feet is a highball. It's all in the eyes of the beholder. Oh, and I haven't done any soloing since I got engaged, and frankly I really enjoy trad so I doubt I will solo again. I will play grammar police, since everyone else always seem to enjoy it so much. I make the assumption from your profile that you are a man. Unless you are marrying another man, you would have a fiancee (with and accent over the first e). a woman who is betrothed to someone is that person's fiancee, and the man is the woman's fiance. |
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tradman
Dec 2, 2004, 3:41 PM
Post #41 of 48
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I'll stand by ed too. This thread is a n00b-fest. "Never solo"? "the only reason they climb is to boost their self confidence"?
Yeah, free soloing is the style that dare not speak its name. But as you get better at climbing, what you view as "dangerous" changes.
Twenty years ago, I would sweat bullets on mountain ridges which nowadays I'd consider little more than a hike. Ten years ago I flailed and strained on walls which I now consider to be the approach to the real climb. Five years ago I'd lower off lines which I now run out to the belay because I can't be arsed placing the gear.
See where I'm going?
Oh, and while I'm at it, Ed has proved time and time again that he's a good and honest man of strong character whose experience and skills in climbing deserve respect, and whose advice and counsel should be heeded. Until you can say the same of yourself, I would bear in mind that he has nothing to prove here, and you have everything.
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majid_sabet
Dec 2, 2004, 11:42 PM
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A good climber never talks about his climbing skills, they just do it, I read over 100 different climbing accident reports every year, few have fatalities, public may never see the photos but they look ugly (makes you think about retirement from climbing), I seen the younger generation with solid energy becoming the most victims. Those who make mistakes normally learn quickly and are easier to work with , the dangers types are the one who think they know it all, read the story about the guy who cut him arm off.
I do not know what to say other than keep your option open, trying to learn more stuff, if you only know fig 8 learn few more knots, learn how to assent and decent with minimum equipment, learn how to make shelter, remember climbing is a dangers business however you must cut down on your risk. if you think you are bad ass in climbing, you may end up with a broken ass one day and I surely will read your report.
:idea:
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crimpandgo
Dec 2, 2004, 11:55 PM
Post #43 of 48
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In reply to: I'll stand by ed too. This thread is a n00b-fest. "Never solo"? "the only reason they climb is to boost their self confidence"? Yeah, free soloing is the style that dare not speak its name. But as you get better at climbing, what you view as "dangerous" changes. Twenty years ago, I would sweat bullets on mountain ridges which nowadays I'd consider little more than a hike. Ten years ago I flailed and strained on walls which I now consider to be the approach to the real climb. Five years ago I'd lower off lines which I now run out to the belay because I can't be arsed placing the gear. See where I'm going? Oh, and while I'm at it, Ed has proved time and time again that he's a good and honest man of strong character whose experience and skills in climbing deserve respect, and whose advice and counsel should be heeded. Until you can say the same of yourself, I would bear in mind that he has nothing to prove here, and you have everything.
Not sure if this was directed at me, so I am gonna defend my case.. just in case.
I was not discounting Epic_eds point nor his "strong character". I see this all the time where folks jump all over people for their "wording". Put yourself in the posters shoes. So you really know how you would feel about soloing or climbing for matter after having a near fatal incident. Its really easy to blow smoke up everyones A$$ about what you feel but my guess is many have not had a near fatal accident, probably dont think they ever will, and if they did would be turning tail and preaching the "dont do it, look at me" chant just like he did.
The original post recommendations/accusations may not apply to you, thats great, but cut the poster some slack. The post was an "in the moment" post traumatic reaction That may require some oversight if you feel you are immune to such revalations yourself.
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epic_ed
Dec 3, 2004, 4:03 AM
Post #44 of 48
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No need to defend, Crimp. I see where you're coming from. I don't agree with you, but that's why we have differing points of view in these threads.
Tradman, you nearly brought a tear to my eye, bro. Those comments coming from a very opinionated, liberal guy like you just about buckled me. :mrgreen:
Much thanks,
Ed
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kailas
Dec 3, 2004, 2:29 PM
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Dude, maybe you should stick to banjo playing and leave the extremo world to real mt. people. Why are there so many morons in these forums?
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kailas
Dec 3, 2004, 2:30 PM
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Dude, maybe you should stick to banjo playing and leave the extremo world to real mt. people. Why are there so many morons in these forums? :oops:
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robmcc
Dec 3, 2004, 4:35 PM
Post #47 of 48
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In reply to: Dude, maybe you should stick to banjo playing and leave the extremo world to real mt. people. Why are there so many morons in these forums?
Magnetism
http://www.people.vcu.edu/...dy/mod/094/fmaga.gif
Ya see, stupid people (S) attract non-stupid people (N), who wish to mock them.
The funny thing is, people who are uniformly stupid or uniformly non-stupid are as rare as magnetic monopoles. Theory says they exist, but can YOU find one? Huh? Neither can I.
So anyway, these non-stupid people mock the stupid ones, then go say something stupid themselves, drawing yet more non-stupid people to mock them, who then go say something stupid, drawing yet more non-stupid people to mock them...
Ya know, now that I think about it, this explains the popularity of the Internet as well. And Disco. Eureka! I now understand sport climbing, too.
Rob
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keithlester
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Dec 5, 2004, 3:07 PM
Post #48 of 48
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In reply to: I'll stand by ed too. This thread is a n00b-fest. "Never solo"? "the only reason they climb is to boost their self confidence"? Yeah, free soloing is the style that dare not speak its name. But as you get better at climbing, what you view as "dangerous" changes. Twenty years ago, I would sweat bullets on mountain ridges which nowadays I'd consider little more than a hike. Ten years ago I flailed and strained on walls which I now consider to be the approach to the real climb. Five years ago I'd lower off lines which I now run out to the belay because I can't be arsed placing the gear. See where I'm going? Oh, and while I'm at it, Ed has proved time and time again that he's a good and honest man of strong character whose experience and skills in climbing deserve respect, and whose advice and counsel should be heeded. Until you can say the same of yourself, I would bear in mind that he has nothing to prove here, and you have everything.
I agree with you, Dave. You cant be mountaineering and climbing for as many years as Ed or yourself without having been out of your depth, extended way past a reasonable risk, on a certain death-fall, lost, off-route, aid-climbing in the dark on unknown ground, thats how we get the experience to know better. The list could go on but that's just a few I can remember. I came late to rock-climbing, my character forming being mostly down to solo mountaineering exploits, before I knew better.
I'm sure Ed has also been through some or all of these scenarios. The original poster has just had his first major epic and survived it. Lets hope he gets over it and goes out there again and again, until he has seen it all, has done it all and we are just hairy-arsed old farts, and he's the guy they all listen to and respect.
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