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curt
Dec 14, 2004, 1:18 AM
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In reply to: Curt, I don't think this is a "new belay technique". If I recall correctly, they illustrate a similar technique in FOTH. I'll have to double check. Regardless, your creativity is exceptional. Thanks for sharing.
Well, please let me know if you find this in FOTH or elsewhere. After using this belay method, it seemed like such a good idea that it is hard to imagine nobody tried this previously. Still, we had never seen it used before ourselves.
Curt
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aikibujin
Dec 14, 2004, 1:33 AM
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In reply to: Curt, I don't think this is a "new belay technique". If I recall correctly, they illustrate a similar technique in FOTH. I'll have to double check. Regardless, your creativity is exceptional. Thanks for sharing.
If you're thinking about the boot axe belay, that involves the use of an ice axe with much of its shaft jabbed into the snow. A foot is placed next to the ice axe head. The rope is looped half way around the ice axe, then half way around the boot.
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jbell2355
Dec 14, 2004, 1:34 AM
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Ok, I was wrong. I was thinking of the illustrations for the boot/axe and boot/screw belay methods. Now that I think of it, you wouldn't expect to find it in FOTH...the method would only work for top-roping and FOTH isn't about top-roping.
I respect your desire to find a better way, but I think I'd be more comfortable with the hip belay. It would be so easy to lose control with the foot belay...and what is the advantage?
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curt
Dec 14, 2004, 1:39 AM
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In reply to: I respect your desire to find a better way, but I think I'd be more comfortable with the hip belay. It would be so easy to lose control with the foot belay...and what is the advantage?
So, you first say it is in FOTH and therefore good, but when you find out it actually isn't in FOTH, it is now bad? As I previously stated, it is not "easy to lose control of" or it didn't seem like that to us. The advantages over the hip belay are:
1) Better control over the climber
2) Much more comfortable for the belayer
Curt
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gunkiemike
Dec 14, 2004, 1:51 AM
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In 85 years of climbing, I would expect you'd learn how to manage a hip belay. Too uncomfortable?? I'm sorry, I'd like another belayer please.
I don't dispute anything you say about the standing one foot belay. But I agree with those who have pointed out the great propensity for losing control if you need to move or lose you balance.
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kman
Dec 14, 2004, 2:00 AM
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Good troll Curt. I bet the pics are staged. "Hey buddy, tie in and climb up a wee bit so I can take a picture of this. We'll post it on rc.com and see how many of those idiots will actually think this is a good idea." :lol:
Rock fall. Your screwed. Belaying a heavy climber...screwed. Lift your foot...screwed. Need to move....forget it. Stumble...screwed.
In reply to: Curt, I don't think this is a "new belay technique". If I recall correctly, they illustrate a similar technique in FOTH.
They show a boot-axe belay. It can not hold a high fall force.
Fess up or post a disclaimer before some noob tries this. Actually...wait a sec. No don't. If there dumb enough to try it out one less at the crag.
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potreroed
Dec 14, 2004, 2:00 AM
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Curt,
While this looks way scary I do appreciate your sharing it with us. I will definitely file it under last resort emergency techniques.
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jefffski
Dec 14, 2004, 2:01 AM
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do shoes come with a rating? sorta like 1 kn shoes tied, .1 kn shoes untied.
this method goes to show that even with 85 years of experience we climbers can truly know how to f**k up.
now if only i can get your name, address and a get you to take a medical i think i would take out a life insurance policy on you and your n00b friends and name myself as beneficiary. i''ll be rich :twisted:
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kman
Dec 14, 2004, 2:07 AM
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In reply to: 1) Very easy to use--to hold and lower the climber 2) Very easy to learn 3) Very safe 4) Very comfortable for the belayer
Very safe????? This post should be deleted before some noob actually tries this. Passing this off as being very safe? Must have been hitting the scotch before heading out eh?
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curt
Dec 14, 2004, 2:08 AM
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In reply to: In 85 years of climbing, I would expect you'd learn how to manage a hip belay. Too uncomfortable?? I'm sorry, I'd like another belayer please. I don't dispute anything you say about the standing one foot belay. But I agree with those who have pointed out the great propensity for losing control if you need to move or lose you balance.
and
In reply to: this method goes to show that even with 85 years of experience we climbers can truly know how to f**k up. now if only i can get your name, address and a get you to take a medical i think i would take out a life insurance policy on you and your n00b friends and name myself as beneficiary. i''ll be rich.
The problem here is that neither of you two geniuses even have the slightest idea of what you're talking about. As far as I know, there are only three people who have belayed this way, and who therefore, have any idea of whether or not it is safe. You are probably the same grommets who think they can rate a climb without having climbed it. Gimme a break.
Curt
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curt
Dec 14, 2004, 2:11 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: 1) Very easy to use--to hold and lower the climber 2) Very easy to learn 3) Very safe 4) Very comfortable for the belayer Very safe????? This post should be deleted before some noob actually tries this. Passing this off as being very safe? Must have been hitting the scotch before heading out eh?
This is not safe in Canada so don't try it. Canadians aren't smart enough to figure it out.
Curt
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kman
Dec 14, 2004, 2:18 AM
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In reply to: This is not safe in Canada so don't try it. Canadians aren't smart enough to figure it out.
So it's not a troll then. Calling me not smart enough and your posting this garbage? hehe. Congrats. 25 years of climbing and you have attained the status of gumby.
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mheyman
Dec 14, 2004, 2:20 AM
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5.10 rubber provides the most friction and easiest lock off. Of course it wear fastest using this method. Use Boreal Aces for longest life.
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crankinv9
Dec 14, 2004, 2:21 AM
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I was an iron worker for a while and it is true that the "shoe belay" is pretty good. I used it to control lowering of beams and various other steel when just trying to use hands alone was dangerous at best.
I'd give it try, especially on a high ball slab where there is plenty of friction in the system already.
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curt
Dec 14, 2004, 2:24 AM
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In reply to: So it's not a troll then. Calling me not smart enough and your posting this garbage? hehe. Congrats. 25 years of climbing and you have attained the status of gumby.
No, I am calling you not smart enough because you have demonstrated it here. Also, a gumby is someone who speaks out of their ass about things they have no knowledge of. In other words--you.
Curt
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crshbrn84
Dec 14, 2004, 2:25 AM
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:wtf: i dont need to say anything else
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theflyingsquirrel
Dec 14, 2004, 2:27 AM
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hey good for you curt. so what if had all the makings for a bad accident at the crag. but that all aside you still need the person to screw up big time for something bad to happen. and its not just one thing you need a series of events to happen in a certain order to creat a catastrophe.
ain't that the way they did in the old days anyway. no safety gear like we have today, just an anchor, rope, and a guy (or gal) whit the balls big enough to climb a rock face like that.
P.S. im waiting to be critized on one or all of these three things:
A) punctuation, spelling, and of coarse grammer - fight me
B) my depiction of how people climbed back in the day - again, fight me
C) my support of curt's idea and willingness to help and improve our climbing lives - fight me :lol:
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jbell2355
Dec 14, 2004, 2:33 AM
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Take it easy Curt. I did not pass judgement on the technique. I never said it was "good", nor did I say it was "not good". I only brought up FOTH because I thought I had seen an illustration of it there. The fact that it is not in FOTH has no bearing on the efficacy of the technique. I was simply saying that I wouldn't be comfortable using it...so I won't use it. I applauded your creativity. Its great if it works for you.
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fracture
Dec 14, 2004, 2:40 AM
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What's up with the above picture, Curt? Holding both ends of the rope with your guide hand (and the brake hand off) is always a no-no. With the Grigri, with tube devices, a figure 8, and even the hip belay.
Also, check this one from your first post:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=45382
It appears that you are switching your brake hand above the guide hand (same problem). What's the deal?
If this is a troll, nice touch. If not, could you explain how it's "very safe" to take your break hand off, and essentially just be holding the climber's rope? You wouldn't do this when giving a hip belay, would you?
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kman
Dec 14, 2004, 2:43 AM
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In reply to: and its not just one thing you need a series of events to happen in a certain order to creat a catastrophe.
All you have to do to f this up is lift your foot dumb a$$.
I am not doubting that it can hold a no slack toprope fall or lower out with a climber equal to or lighter than your self. All it takes to f it up is lowering or catching a heavy climber. Climber pulls a rock, falls as a result, rock plumets toward belayer. Belayers options are either take it like a man or move and drop the climber. Hope the rock is small cause if it's not your going to drop the poor f'er when it knocks your a$$ out. If the angle is wrong or the footing terrain is off then the rope can slip out of there. If the rope is under the foot too far forward it wouldn't take much to lift the front of the foot.
At least post the cons for the noobs instead of passing it off as "very safe".
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theflyingsquirrel
Dec 14, 2004, 2:49 AM
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its an action photo. his hand was moving, for whatever reason i don't know, so that's why it looks like he was not holding it.
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dirtineye
Dec 14, 2004, 2:51 AM
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Well well well.
Curt, I am guessing you had at least one carabiner and maybe even three. Here's one more thing you could have done, assuming the rope was long enough:
Tie a harness in the rope at one end and belay off that with a munter , if you had the extra biner. I had to do an impromptu rappel and a tied harness worked fine, and I have belayed off and climbed with a webbing harness before, no problem. Since you are belaying only, it can be a step in/step out affair. But, you need that extra biner for the munter.
One other thing, if you had a piece of accessory cord, a prussic makes a belay device of sorts. if you had no biner but you did have a prussic loop, you could re-tie the loop through the harness after setting the prussic and lower just like a rappel backup or belay (both hands on the brake side!) by feeding line through the prussick with one hand and holding the prussic with the other hand.
Now, if you are serious and not trolling, I'm willing to TR on your shoe belay, as long as you will share the scotch, because, for one thing I'm betting that you could hold a typical TR 'fall' with no belay method other than two hands on the rope. Assuming you did slip and fall, as long as you did not let go of the rope, no great tragedy would follow, and I'm guessing that YOU and probably your friends have the sense to know that no matter what the belay method is, you just have to do one thing for it to be successful, and that is, DON'T LET GO OF THE ROPE!
So now I have some questions:
Is this a joke or is it serious?
If the answer to the last question is, "It's serious.", then,
How did you set the top rope up?
Did you have two or three biners and a section of something (webbing or other) to make your anchor, or did you just run the rope around the base of a tree? If you didn't have the stuff to make an anchor, I'm guessing the tree base method woudl put a lot of friction in the system.
What does JT have to say about this new belay method? Did you have both hands on the brake side while lowering? Sorry, couldn't resist.
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curt
Dec 14, 2004, 3:13 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: and its not just one thing you need a series of events to happen in a certain order to creat a catastrophe. All you have to do to f this up is lift your foot dumb a$$. I am not doubting that it can hold a no slack toprope fall or lower out with a climber equal to or lighter than your self. All it takes to f it up is lowering or catching a heavy climber. Climber pulls a rock, falls as a result, rock plumets toward belayer. Belayers options are either take it like a man or move and drop the climber. Hope the rock is small cause if it's not your going to drop the poor f'er when it knocks your a$$ out. If the angle is wrong or the footing terrain is off then the rope can slip out of there. If the rope is under the foot too far forward it wouldn't take much to lift the front of the foot. At least post the cons for the noobs instead of passing it off as "very safe".
Once again, you are wrong on all counts. It is quite possible, and in fact easy to move around using this belay--lifting your foot is not a problem and does not fuck up the belay. Of course, you seem to be some sort of expert on this belay technique in spite of your total ignorance of it. As far as weight goes, all three of us weigh within 10 pounds or so of each other.
Curt
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rendog
Dec 14, 2004, 3:14 AM
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this is got "A Climber Was Killed Today..." written all over it.
and Curt please man...if ya don't think Canucks are all that smart, than I dare ya, no actually I double dare ya muthafuker, come up to the Canadian Rockies and give anyone of our Classic 5.9 A2 routes a try.
warrented, if I didn't have a harness, a carabiner, any webbing, just my shoes and a rope, chances are then I'd go home or just finish bouldering. or better yet just solo the damn thing.
I will give you an A+ for inventiveness, and creativity. however there just, to me anyway, seems to be too many factors to make this reliably safe dude. I will throw in a quick moment of vertigo in for the list of things that could cause this to fail. I get 'em and I know that I'm not the only ones. lift your foot even just a few inches and you run the risk of the rope slipping off your foot. a hip belay, however waaaaaaaaaay more ungodly uncomfortable, just seems to have less chinks in its safety armor
Congrats on developing a new belay technique that worked for you. I would have to see this in person and in live action to fully discount it as unsafe. afterall I said that the overhand knot for rappel was unsafe until I saw it in action too.
Kman can you see the looks on peoples faces if we were to bring this one out at Grassi Lakes. HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA ah man that would be funnnnnnny
PS curt, I've sent this over to a budddy of mine who is full mountain guide to see what he thinks of it. I'll let you know what the findings are.
I'm not trying to pick a fight with ya man, you and kman seem to be doing just fine in that department
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curt
Dec 14, 2004, 3:18 AM
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In reply to: What's up with the above picture, Curt? Holding both ends of the rope with your guide hand (and the brake hand off) is always a no-no. With the Grigri, with tube devices, a figure 8, and even the hip belay. Also, check this one from your first post: http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=45382 It appears that you are switching your brake hand above the guide hand (same problem). What's the deal? If this is a troll, nice touch. If not, could you explain how it's "very safe" to take your break hand off, and essentially just be holding the climber's rope? You wouldn't do this when giving a hip belay, would you?
This belay works well just holding the two strands of rope together. I would estimate that (with the friction around and under the foot) that it takes no more than 10 or fifteen pounds of grip strength to hold the falling climber that way. In this respect, this belay works quite differently from an ATC, tube device or even a hip belay.
Curt
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