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healyje
Feb 3, 2006, 8:40 PM
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Skinner,
My apologies for misspeaking. I meant other than that original contentious post. No, this other one was an Orange Alien used to leash a dog at a crag and after some strenuous goes at it the dog managed to do the same thing and take off...
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landgolier
Feb 3, 2006, 8:52 PM
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In reply to: Skinner, My apologies for misspeaking. I meant other than that original contentious post. No, this other one was an Orange Alien used to leash a dog at a crag and after some strenuous goes at it the dog managed to do the same thing and take off...
OK, the fact that that story hasn't been told publicly here before is the real crime, that's f'n hilarious :lol: :lol: :lol:
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healyje
Feb 3, 2006, 9:17 PM
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In reply to: OK, the fact that that story hasn't been told publicly here before is the real crime, that's f'n hilarious :lol: :lol: :lol:
That's because we've been trying to corraborate it and to-date haven't and we've been attempting to stick with the facts as much as possible.
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sonyhome
Feb 7, 2006, 9:23 AM
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Grumble Grumble Grumble...
All my new Aliens are stamped 805 and were shipped at the same time from CCH, and looking closely, my ORANGE is dimpled... So is my GREEN one, though the mark is fainter.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=69025
Dimpled Orange and Green Aliens photo
Comparing the brazing of a regular cam to the orange, the orange one is not as fluid. If you've ever soldered, you know what I mean: the solder has not liquefied and melted nicely like the others. However the green one looks clean and fluid.
Here's how they look (in red, the recalled Orange Alien, and Green the normal Alien).
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=69023
The orange dimpled alien
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=69024
A normal Alien
I feel like trying a drop test of my set of Alien cams :twisted:. From the failure modes posted, it seems the load doesn't need to be much...
If I understand correctly from the 2 or 3 threads on this problem, the recap would be:
- The recall is now officialy posted on CCH website
- The recall was started by a fall that broke an Orange Alien as shown at the beginning of this thread.
- Recall most likely impacts larger cam models that were contracted out 1.5, 2, 2.5, though smaller cams may fall in the category.
- The dimple is a test mark done by the contractor done to check for metal properties.
- The failure happens at low loads
- All cams bought since Oct-2004 should be checked for the dimple
- There is a non related issue with some Aliens shipepd with mis-drilled axle holes on the lobes, but those are rare and CCH has tested them to be still safe as is, and not recalled
If I'm missing something, correct me... It's because there's been a lot of :deadhorse:, which I skipped :boring: for the more important stuff :wtf:.
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healyje
Feb 7, 2006, 9:58 AM
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In reply to: ...the recap would be: - Recall most likely impacts larger cam models that were contracted out 1.5, 2, 2.5, though smaller cams may fall in the category.
In reply to: - The dimple is a test mark done by the contractor done to check for metal properties.
In reply to: - The failure happens at low loads
In reply to: - All cams bought since Oct-2004 should be checked for the dimple
In reply to: - There is a non-related issue with some Aliens shipped with mis-drilled axle holes on the lobes, but those are rare and CCH has tested them to be still safe as is, and not recalled
In reply to: If I'm missing something, correct me...
In reply to: It's because there's been a lot said which I skipped for the more important stuff
First glad to see you're enjoying trad climbing inspite of this sort of glitch and thanks for that pic of the flying Frenchman - I remember that one, and I believe it was another example well-illustrating the wisdom of doubling up on key pieces of pro when sending.
We very appreciate your photos and comments. Please do consider, in an instance like this where you are going to be making a substantial post / contribution, that it may be worth reading through the threads, however painful, before doing so in order to minimize any potential misunderstandings or confusion on the part of others also just arriving.
Thanks again.
Joseph Healy
Portland, Oregon
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healyje
Feb 7, 2006, 10:45 AM
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In reply to: ...the recap would be: - Recall most likely impacts larger cam models that were contracted out 1.5, 2, 2.5, though smaller cams may fall in the category.
In reply to: - The dimple is a test mark done by the contractor done to check for metal properties.
In reply to: - The failure happens at low loads
In reply to: - All cams bought since Oct-2004 should be checked for the dimple
In reply to: - There is a non-related issue with some Aliens shipped with mis-drilled axle holes on the lobes, but those are rare and CCH has tested them to be still safe as is, and not recalled
In reply to: If I'm missing something, correct me...
In reply to: It's because there's been a lot said which I skipped for the more important stuff
First, glad to see you're enjoying trad climbing inspite of this sort of glitch. And second, thanks for that pic of the flying Frenchman - I remember that one, and I believe it was another example well-illustrating the wisdom of doubling up on key pieces of pro when sending.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...to_show.php?id=57561
We very much appreciate your photos and comments. Please do consider, in an instance like this where you are going to be making a substantial post / contribution, that it may be worth reading through all the threads, however painful, before doing so in order to minimize any potential misunderstandings or confusion on the part of others also just arriving.
Thanks again.
Joseph Healy
Portland, Oregon
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skinner
Feb 7, 2006, 3:34 PM
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Thank You for posting the photo's.
They are a great example of how faint the dimple can be. Also the fact that it may not be in the same location as mine were, right on the line where the shaft meets the ball (axle housing).
Was this dimple not originally explained to be some sort of hardness test?
I'm not sure how you would test hardness in this manner but I am also not a metallurgist.
I'm just glad that for whatever reason they chose to identify the sub contractors work.
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maldaly
Feb 7, 2006, 4:03 PM
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A Rockwell hardness test leaves a dimple but if it's done correctly the area around where the test is done is machined flat. Sometimes a quickie test is done but it's not the right thing to do.
Mal
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altelis
Feb 7, 2006, 5:03 PM
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don't mean to clutter up this thread-
but cracklover, your last post was well thought out and if i could rate posts today would definitely get a trophy
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sonyhome
Feb 10, 2006, 7:24 PM
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Thanks for the precisions.
I posted for another reason, beyond showing my dimples:
Looking at the brazing of the orange alien, I see how it could be insufficient. The metal "solder" does not seem to be well absorbed, and has a lumpy look to it.
All the other aliens's "solder" look like it's been absored, and fluxes onto each strand of the wire.
The last note is that the dimpled green alien's brazing does look good. So i wonder if the subcontractor did those following the right process (maybe the size of the stem is smaller so it got enough heat?
I'm sorry for the lack of vocabulary for my descriptions. A brazing dictionary would be welcome, since it's different from actual soldering.
Lastly, some useless ranting:
- I think CCH wil have to demontrate that otherwise their product is safe to bring back the trust, now that a shadow of doubt has been cast by all these negative opinions. For example, a full demo and explanation of how good and bad cams are/should look like and how they behave (showing drop tests). In times of crisis, good honest communication is key. Other companies have gone though that and learned. i recall seeing a TV show about that.
- They have to learn that if the have a customer support email/phone, they have to respond. They have to learn that when people order, they can't just decide to ship whenever, dragging the order with no ETA.
- Besides that I'm surprised that people won't trust the other Aliens. They've been used by tons of climbers, have protected *many* falls, are it for fingers and below, etc. People forget fast... After all not all climbing gear brands have the highest test standards and it still gets bought & used. I recall the three-sigmas being the higer quality control standard, but not all gear is like that, not everything is drop-tested individually... and even then you can still get a defective part OR a poor placement OR the rock can break.
- Why do stores like REI still do not carry CCH anymore now that the recall is clearly understood?
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healyje
Feb 10, 2006, 7:53 PM
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In reply to: Thanks for the precisions. I posted for another reason, beyond showing my dimples: Looking at the brazing of the orange alien, I see how it could be insufficient. The metal "solder" does not seem to be well absorbed, and has a lumpy look to it. All the other aliens's "solder" look like it's been absored, and fluxes onto each strand of the wire. The last note is that the dimpled green alien's brazing does look good. So i wonder if the subcontractor did those following the right process (maybe the size of the stem is smaller so it got enough heat? I'm sorry for the lack of vocabulary for my descriptions. A brazing dictionary would be welcome, since it's different from actual soldering.
No problem Sonyhome. The general issue with the brazing is that there is no way to visually tell what cams are affected by looking at the brazing visible on the cam. Appearance, in this case, has very little to do with the actuall holding power of the braze.
In reply to: - Why do stores like REI still do not carry CCH anymore now that the recall is clearly understood?
Some retailers have chosen to pull them while this business gets sorted out. I'm sure sales will resume once it is resolved to everyone's satisfaction.
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philbox
Moderator
Feb 12, 2006, 3:02 AM
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A huge thank you to healyje for keeping the discussion focused on the issues. The climbing community owes you a deep debt of gratitude mate.
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the_mitt
Feb 12, 2006, 4:30 AM
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(This post was edited by the_mitt on Nov 19, 2006, 6:34 PM)
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csgambill
Feb 12, 2006, 4:47 AM
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In reply to: I don't think anyone has been absolutely unreasonable during the many discussions about CCH. I believe the majority of the community has been constructive and not just defamatory. I think that RC'ers should pat themselves on the back for identifying a problem and encouraging a manufacturer to solve the problem (Joseph taking a leading role). Hopefully CCH will see that there are many people out there rooting for them and change their ways to become the success story that they were several years ago. I look at these discussions as being positive for climbing as a whole. Mitt
I definitely agree. My initial reaction may have been slightly different than CCH's but remember that this is a blog site where 99% of everything said isn't worth it's weight in feces. I'm somewhat suprised that CCH made any response on this site. Although CCH really should change the paragraph on their website stating they don't use outside contractors:
CCH Website:
In reply to: Quality control. All machined parts are manufactured in our shop with modern computer numeric controlled equipment. This allows us to control the manufacturing processes from start to finish, eliminating possible errors from outside contractors.
:roll:
Other than that minor issue, I have no qualms.
Cheers kids!
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wings
Feb 14, 2006, 5:42 PM
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For what it's worth ...
I bounce tested the aliens I have (haven't received my replacement butterscotch yet) and none of them broke apart.
I feel a little better about them ...
- Seyil
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skinner
Feb 14, 2006, 6:01 PM
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Just an interesting side note:
While returning 2 more dimpled aliens at MEC, I was talking to one of the staff who told me that he took a 40' whipper on a dimpled alien which held.
There is a picture of it on page 67 of "Alpinist 12"
captioned:
J.C. Dubeau coming of off pitch 5 (5.10b)
I guess that would be considered a successful test :wink:
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healyje
Feb 14, 2006, 6:05 PM
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In reply to: Just an interesting side note: While returning 2 more dimpled aliens at MEC, I was talking to one of the staff who told me that he took a 40' whipper on a dimpled alien which held. There is a picture of it on page 67 of "Alpinist 12" captioned: J.C. Dubeau coming of off pitch 5 (5.10b) I guess that would be considered a successful test :wink:
Yikes - that's just plain too nasty for words...! Really lucky we didn't lose him. :angel:
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clayman
Apr 19, 2006, 5:15 PM
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Just wondering if Dave has published the outside metallurgical test report that he said would back in Jan/Feb.
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insainio
Apr 19, 2006, 5:33 PM
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In reply to: Just wondering if Dave has published the outside metallurgical test report that he said would back in Jan/Feb.
No, he hasn't. But as of yesterday, the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission issued a notice. It can be viewed on their website and on the CCH website.
Here is a link.
http://www.cpsc.gov/.../prhtml06/06141.html
Nothing we already didn't know.
Kevin
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billcoe_
Apr 19, 2006, 8:05 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Just wondering if Dave has published the outside metallurgical test report that he said would back in Jan/Feb. No, he hasn't. But as of yesterday, the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission issued a notice. It can be viewed on their website and on the CCH website. ....
Wow, 4 months. That's certainly moving at the speed of E-government.
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chossmonkey
Apr 19, 2006, 8:12 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: No, he hasn't. But as of yesterday, the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission issued a notice. It can be viewed on their website and on the CCH website. .... Wow, 4 months. That's certainly moving at the speed of E-government.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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healyje
Apr 20, 2006, 9:54 AM
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I suspect the slow velocity of the official recall was as much a matter of CCH coming up to speed on the process as it was the Feds being slow...
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