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grigriese
Jul 9, 2003, 7:37 PM
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In reply to: Typically, if a wallet is returned to you the cash is missing. It's expected. Even if you carry $500 in the wallet you can expect it all to be gone and if it isn't you are very lucky. This is what I call a return fee. If it's returned within 12-24hrs most people consider this a reasonable fee considering the hassel of replacing the entire contents of the wallet. Just as a note, I have never found a wallet (therefore never taken anyones money, before you start calling me a thief) and I have only lost my wallet when in high school and it only had a few bucks in it and a learners permit, high school ID and liesure/parks pass. The wallet was returned but the money missing. I do know people who have lost wallets several times (my brother) and each time the money was missing but everything else returned.
A "Return Fee" Huh? I have found a couple of wallets in my time with cash in them and guess what I returned them with the cash.
In reply to: I'm not a sport climber so I can't comment on the whole project thing but if I was on a trad route with gear left, it's mine!!! As a matter of fact, I'll often aid a section I can't climb just get the booty that I spot. I would return it if I found out it was left for an accident or a rescue but for anything else it is mine. Likewise if I leave it it would be someone elses booty gear.
Draws are usually left on sport routes that someone is projecting. I have cleaned bail biners, runners, cams and nuts that were forgotten from trad routes. It's a different situation. If someone is projecting a sport route they will most definatley be going back to it. If someone leaves a piece of gear on a trad route, they either forgot to clean it, bailed on it or are already driving home to some other state. There are some really popular trad areas where you are almost guaranteed to come across booty!
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climbsomething
Jul 9, 2003, 7:51 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: On a sport route, bail gear is booty, project gear is not. Is that so hard to understand? -Jay If it's public land, left gear is littering. Period. The only question is how long it remains before removal. On private land, leave it up for as long as you wish and shoot the trespassers.
OMG, littering!!!!111 These bolts and chains that the presumptous climbers have left will be the death of ALL CRAGS. Look out!
Really. Things that get "left" include bolts and hangers, chain anchors, chalk smudges.
Explain the difference and how your from-the-depths-of-my-ass logic is still valid. I anxiously await my opportunity to be skooled.
*waits*
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scottcody
Jul 9, 2003, 7:52 PM
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In reply to: Hey scottcody -- there are a ton of fixed ropes in Yosemite leading up to Heart Ledge on El Cap, I'm sure a few to Sickle, and heaps of fixed heads, gear, and ropes on Leaning Tower -- I was there last week! Let's go man, if we hurry we may never have to buy another rope for the rest of our climbing careers! Think of all the money we'll save!
Dude, I am so there!!!!!!!! And with all the rope we booty we, can rap down and start bogarting pins, heads, and hangers.
although, favorite thing to while at the crags is to wait until the leader is up a route 20 or 30 feet, then traverse over from another route (solo of course) and booty the shmucks gear before the second can get to it. That will teach him to stuff litter in MY routes! :twisted:
SHEESH!!!
All joking aside; and yes that was a joke, please let me explain (or shamefully back pedal, I guess it is a matter of perception)
1) Fixed gear is not booty. So if you want to work a project over multiple days, then fix your draws using quick links as I suggested in my first post.
2) The litter comment was inflammatory, but I am amazed at some of the attempts to make it hold water. I would be interested in a thread soley on that topic.
I do have a question. How would feel if you had left draws on your project and I started climbing the route on your draws? Not cleaning them, but just using them?
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climbsomething
Jul 9, 2003, 7:54 PM
Post #54 of 168
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In reply to: I do have a question. How would feel if you had left draws on your project and I started climbing the route on your draws? Not cleaning them, but just using them? |
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grigriese
Jul 9, 2003, 8:03 PM
Post #55 of 168
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In reply to: In reply to: I do have a question. How would feel if you had left draws on your project and I started climbing the route on your draws? Not cleaning them, but just using them? Happens all the time...
Yep - all the time!
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jt512
Jul 9, 2003, 8:11 PM
Post #56 of 168
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In reply to: 1) Fixed gear is not booty.
Irrelevant. Project draws are not booty either.
In reply to: I do have a question. How would feel if you had left draws on your project and I started climbing the route on your draws? Not cleaning them, but just using them?
When we leave draws on a route, we allow others to climb on them. It would hardly be fair not to.
-Jay
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alpiner
Jul 9, 2003, 8:14 PM
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In reply to: There is nothing to "believe." The crags are open. We have chats with the rangers. No one complains about draws being left up. No one. This is the real world. -Jay
In your little microcosm, perhaps. Of course, you don't see what you don't want to look for. And while you consider a bunch of draws a work of art, John Q Public sees it as an eyesore hanging from a cliff that they own too.
You said earlier that there is a consensus among climbers. BS. There's just a consensus among your little circle of like-minded ecoterrorists. Many other climbers view your garbage the way the public does. If a project is missing it's draws, look in the nearest trash bin. Not stealing, just cleaning up the mess of less considerate "climbers."
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jt512
Jul 9, 2003, 8:22 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: There is nothing to "believe." The crags are open. We have chats with the rangers. No one complains about draws being left up. No one. This is the real world. -Jay In your little microcosm, perhaps.
No, not my little microcosm. Project draws are left up all over the world. I have yet to see one iota of convincing evidence that this creates access problems.
In reply to: John Q Public sees it as an eyesore hanging from a cliff that they own too.
Says who? Document that this is a problem.
In reply to: You said earlier that there is a consensus among climbers. BS.
It is the consensus of climbers at sport crags.
In reply to: There's just a consensus among your little circle of like-minded ecoterrorists.
Ah, "ecoterrorists," eh? So, you're a fanatic. Ok, now I get it.
-Jay
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benpullin
Jul 9, 2003, 8:41 PM
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Scottcody brought up a very important point that may cause confusion among new climbers ( no offense scottcody -- I have no idea how long you have been climbing, not that it matters).
Just because someone's draws are hung on a route, it does not reserve or preclude anyone else from getting on the route. I have climbed on strangers' draws several times. In fact, at harder crags such as Clark Mountain (The Monastery) draws are left on the easier warm-up routes for the duration of the season for the benefit of all climbers at the crag.
However, if I am aware that the person whose draws are on a route I wish to climb is at the crag and nearby, I will ask permission (as a courtesy) before climbing on the draws. This also ensures that I am not cutting in front of a climber just before a redpoint attempt, etc.
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scottcody
Jul 9, 2003, 8:54 PM
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Ben Pullin
No worries... No offense taken
I was asking the question (a bit of a troll really, sorry had to do it) to complete my understanding of Jay's et al position.
I think your point is right on.
Alpiner, I think you need to let go of the littering debate. If you do want to continue it, start another thread and find out what people think is litter. I'm sure it will get interesting.
And for the record, I would never booty, theive, or otherwise bogart an entire route of draws.
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pico23
Jul 9, 2003, 9:07 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: There is nothing to "believe." The crags are open. We have chats with the rangers. No one complains about draws being left up. No one. This is the real world. -Jay
:?: :roll: :? :shock: :twisted:
Perhaps I have another classic rc.com quote to affix to a t-shirt?
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caughtinside
Jul 9, 2003, 9:30 PM
Post #62 of 168
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Quickdraws ane eyesores?
Whatever. Areas I've climbed where there have been non-climbers, they're usually stoked to hang around and watch for a few minutes. Maybe even ask the inevitable 'How'd you get the rope up there?' Not a single complaint about 'littering' the rock face.
Also, the idea of fixing draws semipermanently to hangars with quicklinks isn't a good one if you're only going to be projecting for a short time. It's a pain in the ass to screw them on, I can't imagine doing it on lead, on a climb hard enough to be a project.
Don't be a kook. Leave the draws be.
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petsfed
Jul 9, 2003, 9:42 PM
Post #63 of 168
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No kidding, left draws on public land is littering and gets climbers kicked out?! Shoot, so how does Rifle Mountain Park stay open?! I mean jeezus! An agressive thief (that is what a booty hunter at sport park is after all) could rake in over $1000 in a single evening from left draws! Or how about Sinks Canyon? There are draws that you can actually reach from the ground (or actually stacks of rocks, the first 8 feet of Killer Cave are pretty bad) and yet they never get stolen! Bizarre. Admitted Trad-only climbers weighing in on this is rather like a road biker telling me what fork to get for my mountain bike. The issues are vaguely related, but to presume how the other's world works is asinine. When I clip bolts, the approach is different from when I clip nuts. Ergo, left gear is booty on a TRAD route. Likewise for only 1 draw on a sport route. Out of curiousity, have you ever seen one of those lowering station setups that has the big burly anchor wiregate crab clipped to the bolt? Like a sport anchor, but the clip part can flop around. Its really hard to take off the bolt and one would have to be on rappel (or otherwise anchored from above) to remove them as its a two hand job. You strike me as the kind of person who would try to yank those. That's theft. Like taking chains. Or removing "public" draws attached with quicklinks.
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justuspr
Jul 9, 2003, 9:50 PM
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In reply to: John Q Public sees it as an eyesore hanging from a cliff that they own too.
When I'm at a crag or climbing area with John Q Public I have to point out the bolts and or draws on a route... John Q is largely oblivious to rock faces. What you should have said is John Q Trad Only, Sport Hater. sees it as an eyesore on a cliff that only he has a right to climb.
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robmcc
Jul 9, 2003, 10:19 PM
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In reply to: What you should have said is John Q Trad Only, Sport Hater. sees it as an eyesore on a cliff that only he has a right to climb.
And the litter thing was inflammatory? :lol:
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sheesh
Jul 9, 2003, 10:30 PM
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It's litter, pure and simple. If it is left behind, it is to be picked up and disposed of. Selfish folks claim otherwise, and leaving gear behind is one of the reasons many places, particularly parks and monuments, have become off limits or controlled.
But, hey, I've said it before: The climbing community is stereotyped for being egocentric and selfish. Saying that gear left behind is not litter adds to this stereotype.
When folks ask me if I am a climber, I always say no, but I climb, as I am embarassed by the environmental insensitivity of most of the climbing community.
Peace
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paganmonkeyboy
Jul 9, 2003, 10:31 PM
Post #67 of 168
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In reply to: I have cleaned bail biners, runners, cams and nuts that were forgotten from trad routes. It's a different situation. If someone is projecting a sport route they will most definatley be going back to it. If someone leaves a piece of gear on a trad route, they either forgot to clean it, bailed on it or are already driving home to some other state. There are some really popular trad areas where you are almost guaranteed to come across booty!
found on third pitch of osirus in lumpy monday - unique bd camalot...if its yours you know exactly what i mean, down to the number, style, and color of tape. PM me and I will send it back to you.
(sometimes you have to work on your karma. anybody take the biner and sling i lowered off yet ? yeah...single one i know, but its an easy downclimb from there...)
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climbsomething
Jul 9, 2003, 10:36 PM
Post #68 of 168
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In reply to: It's litter, pure and simple. If it is left behind, it is to be picked up and disposed of. Selfish folks claim otherwise, and leaving gear behind is one of the reasons many places, particularly parks and monuments, have become off limits or controlled. But, hey, I've said it before: The climbing community is stereotyped for being egocentric and selfish. Saying that gear left behind is not litter adds to this stereotype. When folks ask me if I am a climber, I always say no, but I climb, as I am embarassed by the environmental insensitivity of most of the climbing community. Peace In reply to: Bolts are gear. Fixed anchors are gear. They don't get taken away at the end of every day. OMG, littering!!!!111 These bolts and chains that the presumptous climbers have left will be the death of ALL CRAGS. Look out! Really. Things that get "left" include bolts and hangers, chain anchors, chalk smudges. Explain the difference and how your from-the-depths-of-my-ass logic is still valid. I anxiously await my opportunity to be skooled. *waits*
I'm still waiting.
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cedk
Jul 9, 2003, 10:38 PM
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I would just like to say that I respect all forms of climbing.
But with a name like Alpiner can you really attack sport climbers for leaving gear overnight and call it littering?!?! Alpinists fix gear all the time. And they should. I really respect those single push guys but I'd hate to think that's the only way anyone's allowed to climb alpine peaks.
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mike_ok
Jul 9, 2003, 10:46 PM
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In reply to: It's litter, pure and simple. If it is left behind, it is to be picked up and disposed of. Selfish folks claim otherwise, and leaving gear behind is one of the reasons many places, particularly parks and monuments, have become off limits or controlled. But, hey, I've said it before: The climbing community is stereotyped for being egocentric and selfish. Saying that gear left behind is not litter adds to this stereotype. When folks ask me if I am a climber, I always say no, but I climb, as I am embarassed by the environmental insensitivity of most of the climbing community. Peace
The only way that I can make sense of your argument is to hold that bolts are bad as well, which pretty much puts you in the typical "i hate sport climbing camp". Its not an eyesore, its not eco-terrorism. Look, I'm a climber, and half the time I miss bolts when climbing a tough sport route. They're just not that apparent. Neither are a few QD's.
As to not saying you're a climber because of the... what, negative image we have? Come on. Climbers are more eco-sensitive than almost any other single group (obviously, there are exceptions). Why are we sensitive? Because we love those places too. We have a vested interest.
Now, back to some semblence of the original topic: the QD's should not be stolen off a project. The only argument we have thus far is that they should be taken down (and then thrown away) because they are garbage. This, of course, logically entails pulling bolts as well, since they would be equally objects of trash. Since bolts are accepted and bolt chopping banned (regardless of what some in the vocal minority want), we are left with the conclusion that QD's are not garbage, and should not be taken off a project.
*Disclaimer* If you see one by itself, pick it up. Its yours.
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justuspr
Jul 9, 2003, 10:51 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: What you should have said is John Q Trad Only, Sport Hater. sees it as an eyesore on a cliff that only he has a right to climb. And the litter thing was inflammatory? :lol:
Rob, not trying to be too inflammatory... I just get tired of the "My way is the only way that should be respected atitudes that seem to permiate the climbing community (I use the term community loosely) If you're at a sport crag, respect the sport way of things. If your on a trad route, be trad. Same goes for alpinism, aid, bouldering etc.
Edit: Right on Mike_ok
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robmcc
Jul 9, 2003, 10:53 PM
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In reply to: Ahem. I'm still waiting.
Every now and again people have the wisdom to realize they're just on two different sides of an issue and neither is going to be convinced. You might have to wait a long time for someone to bite. :)
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sheesh
Jul 9, 2003, 10:57 PM
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You are right, Mike. I am in that camp. The piton scarred routes at the Tower and Yosemite tell THAT tale. Destruction of public property is what it is, not unlike illegal logging and any "take" of resources.
Regarding the eco-sensitivity of the climbing community, having litter clean up days at favorite haunts doesn't cut it. Past topics on this site regarding the loss of snails (remember that, ColdClimb?) and illegal trail clearing also promote my point.
I'm not even going to get into the complete and utter disregard for social and cultural beliefs associated with some climbing areas by the native american community. I'll just say this: Tell me that I can go to your church, temple or the like and climb, and leave gear behind for another day's worth of climbing and it is OK. Wait, I'll come to your house and do this!
Frankly, when the climbing community is WIDELY recognized OUTSIDE the climbing community for it's ecosensitivity, I will change my point of view. Until then...you'll find me at Camp 4 staying away from the mountain dew cliques.
Peace
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climbsomething
Jul 9, 2003, 10:59 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Ahem. I'm still waiting. Every now and again people have the wisdom to realize they're just on two different sides of an issue and neither is going to be convinced. You might have to wait a long time for someone to bite. :)
I just want to see them act like contradictory, hypocritical choads. It'll be funny.
So, I'm still waiting.
Tell me why you think you're right, y'all eco-avengers!
8)
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robmcc
Jul 9, 2003, 11:03 PM
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Justus,
I'm with ya on that. Play by the rules of the area. I just had to speak up because, as duly unelected representative of the John Q TradOnly, Sport Hater contingent, we aren't picky WHO climbs on OUR cliffs. Just how. :lol:
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