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rodeomountain
Jul 14, 2003, 7:42 PM
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Personally I don't feel safe using a draw that is hanging. So, I would neither use it or take it. You don't know what that draw has been through. If I don't feel like putting it on my rack and replacing it on rap I just hang it off the draw I replace it with (as long as it don't get in the way of my rope). This way my second can put it back. But, I agree if you could put it there once then you can take it with you and hang it next time you try the route. I never leave draws on any route unless I plan on loosing it and in that case I have a couple with me that I don't mind loosing.
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dingus
Jul 14, 2003, 8:06 PM
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In reply to: I think you are being theoretical. In reality, if there are project draws on a route, you probably would find it so difficult to clean them that you would not consider it. -Jay
I suspect those most vocal about stealing draws are among the least capable of actually doing it!
DMT
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alpinerockfiend
Jul 14, 2003, 9:09 PM
Post #153 of 168
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In reply to: I suspect those most vocal about stealing draws are among the least capable of actually doing it!
That goes for just about every topic that has ever been brought up on this site!
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climbsomething
Jul 14, 2003, 10:35 PM
Post #154 of 168
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In reply to: In reply to: I think you are being theoretical. In reality, if there are project draws on a route, you probably would find it so difficult to clean them that you would not consider it. -Jay I suspect those most vocal about stealing draws are among the least capable of actually doing it! DMT |
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alpinestylist
Jul 14, 2003, 10:43 PM
Post #155 of 168
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The excessive use of fixed rope and O2 bottles on our large peaks is a dated practice that sadly will only gain in popularity as access to the larger peaks is spoon fed to our nations (and others, but probably mostly ours) non climbing daredevil thrill seekers money bags.
There is absolutely no excuse for leaving any of this behind, and I feel that this has a greatly larger impact than hanging draws at the crag.
Leave no trace should be an ethos we all live by every trip out the front door.
To most of the users of this site the hanging draw issue has a much more day to day impact.
If you leave it you may loose it, just realize this, make your decision and stop whining.
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climbsomething
Jul 14, 2003, 10:56 PM
Post #156 of 168
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Considered and intelligent responses, alpinestylist. (dontcha hate when that happens around here? ;) 8) )
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igcuesta
Jul 16, 2003, 1:43 PM
Post #157 of 168
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1- The crag where the QDs were STOLEN is not subject to any regulations. It is not a national park, nor a restricted area. So bolts and gear left on them are legal in a wide sense. Nobody in any lawful sense would interpret their presence as contrary to any law.
2- The crag itself is very far from being a frequented place; it is only visited by climbers and, rarely, by mountainearers. It is a rather hidden place. To get there you have to walk uphill across a wood. No path.
3- Almost all the routes there are hard. Warming up is on +5.11.
4- The route where the QDs were STOLEN is 8b and it can't be rappeled down. Besides, it is overhanged.
1 implies that the QDs were not legally removed to protect Nature, or Wilderness, or whatever in the name of any law. 2+3+4 imply that the THIEVES were climbers. Actually they were strong climbers because they had to complete the route which, even resting on each bolt, can be pretty hard. BTW, the THIEVES were really naff: the QDs consisted of maillons and old biners.
All this stuff has nothing to do with a beginer rappeling down a route where "some stupid asshole" left some QDs. It has to do with high level climbers STEALING other climber's gear. Those of you who think the QDs were litter or some kind of trophy for the one who is so "macho" to get to the top, will probably never be even strong enough to remove the first draw... so I don't care really much about that.
The thing that makes me sad is that I though there was some kind of code or tacit agreement between REAL SPORT CLIMBERS, I mean those who understand the word "project", to RESPECT the other's gear on projects. I was not asking wether it was a theft or not. IT IS A THEFT. No doubt. I wasn't asking for your compassion either; QDs weren't even mine. I just wanted to know if other climbers, in other places, had suffered the same problem.
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robmcc
Jul 16, 2003, 2:03 PM
Post #158 of 168
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Hooooly crap! We actually got back to the topic!
Thieves climb too. It's just not realistic to think that a thief becomes an ethical person when he ties in. Looks like somebody's a "real sport climber" AND a thief, which sucks, but is not totally surprising.
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igcuesta
Jul 16, 2003, 2:49 PM
Post #159 of 168
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In reply to: Hooooly crap! We actually got back to the topic! Thieves climb too. It's just not realistic to think that a thief becomes an ethical person when he ties in. Looks like somebody's a "real sport climber" AND a thief, which sucks, but is not totally surprising.
Right, robmcc. I see you understand it. Seems that not everybody do so... Now... did it happen anything similar at your crags? Do you think it is common? Is climbing world full of bastard thieves? I thought the answer was NO. I'm starting to change my mind. :evil:
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jt512
Jul 16, 2003, 4:15 PM
Post #160 of 168
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In reply to: Right, robmcc. I see you understand it. Seems that not everybody do so... Now... did it happen anything similar at your crags? Do you think it is common? Is climbing world full of bastard thieves? I thought the answer was NO. I'm starting to change my mind. :evil:
I don't know how common it is, but it recently happened at Frustration Creek in SoCal. Similar situation to that which you report: Draws stolen off a 5.13 route at a hard sport crag. The thieves were almost certainly strong sport climbers, considering the difficulty of the route and the fact that the approach to the crag involves a 30-foot free solo of about 5.8 difficulty.
-Jay
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corpse
Jul 20, 2003, 3:55 PM
Post #161 of 168
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I'm curious on this a little.. Is it possible in some of these cases, that maybe a good climber wanted to do the climb, and they wanted to use their own quickdraws and removed the currently hanging qd's off the rock, and then when they were done - they cleaned up after themselves? And putting them back seems a bit silly. Maybe then they left the qd's at the base, but them someone else came along and took those. :-)
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kalcario
Jul 20, 2003, 4:27 PM
Post #162 of 168
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* I don't know how common it is, but it recently happened at Frustration Creek in SoCal. Similar situation to that which you report: Draws stolen off a 5.13 route at a hard sport crag. The thieves were almost certainly strong sport climbers,*
maybe, maybe not. The last time I was there, County SAR was training there, notice all the bolts in the rock at the base, on the slabs you walk on? That's SAR. Not accusing them, just saying other than hard core climbers go there too despite the approach
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elrojobdugs
Jul 20, 2003, 4:36 PM
Post #163 of 168
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Registered: Jul 19, 2003
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whenever ive been climbing and someone on a route nearby cant make the crux... and are about to come down on the draw... they manage to clean the draw and replace it with anything from a doval to a cheap hardware store biner... all of which are crap and not worth climbing for... as for stealing, ive never encountered anything of the sort
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jt512
Jul 20, 2003, 5:14 PM
Post #164 of 168
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In reply to: I'm curious on this a little.. Is it possible in some of these cases, that maybe a good climber wanted to do the climb, and they wanted to use their own quickdraws and removed the currently hanging qd's off the rock...
No. He would just use the draws that were already up.
-Jay
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jt512
Jul 20, 2003, 5:17 PM
Post #165 of 168
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In reply to: ...notice all the bolts in the rock at the base, on the slabs you walk on? That's SAR.
I've wondered about those bolts.
-Jay
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lancebrock
Jul 21, 2003, 2:47 AM
Post #166 of 168
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Registered: Jan 16, 2003
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some little thieves stole my friends draws off the bottom of two routes at foster falls this weekend. they left them there at 6 on fri evening and they were gone when we got there the next morning. this is stealing, plain and simple and the day we walk up on someone yanking our draws, someone is going to get dealt with...
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tenn_dawg
Jul 21, 2003, 3:18 AM
Post #167 of 168
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Registered: Mar 14, 2002
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In reply to: some little thieves stole my friends draws off the bottom of two routes at foster falls this weekend. they left them there at 6 on fri evening and they were gone when we got there the next morning. this is stealing, plain and simple and the day we walk up on someone yanking our draws, someone is going to get dealt with...
Slowly, I'm loosing faith in the old idea that climbers will respect each other. The tragedy at Del's place (that I'm sure you're aware of), draws getting snatched off of routes nation wide.
It's a shame. I find myself constantly glancing down to my pack, lest it be pilfered, when I'm climbing multipitch climbs. As more and more new people start in our little persuit, we're going to run into more and more assholes.
Thus is the evolution of our sport. Progress dosen't always have to be bad, but 9 times out of 10 ain't great either.
Travis
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billcoe_
Jul 26, 2003, 5:19 AM
Post #168 of 168
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Registered: Jun 30, 2002
Posts: 4694
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Shese, are you guys still here having this debate?
Looks it's simple, can't believe JT hasn't brought this up yet. You write with a permanant sharpie the year on one side of the stitched area, and your NAME on the other. You'd be amazed how you forget the year you bought it. Then you have 2 important pieces of knowledge shared with everybody and their dog.
Anybody who would like to pull the draw may re-consider working so hard to get it if they can see your name on it.
Now somebody who just wants to clean up the trash, well - thats another diatribe........
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