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bumblie
Mar 18, 2004, 2:29 AM
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Reading your posts reminds me of the "macho man" stereotype of the 70s.
Macho macho man,
I want to be a macho man. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
At least you accept criticism well. :roll:
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nagatana
Mar 18, 2004, 6:20 AM
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In reply to: You're right. But knowing as many poor climbers as I do, I find it tough to believe that money is what separates climbers from non-climbers. All sarcasm aside, what is a bit bothersome is that there really is a perception by many in the climbing community that there are few minorities in this sport. So why is that? Is it: 1. Demographics of an area. 2. Access by minorities. 3. The definition of a minority. 4. Money. 5. The European conquerer proposal stated earlier. 6. Media ignorance. 7. Climber ignorance. None of the above, something completely different, or everything all at once?
It's always "all of the above" for history questions regarding factors, duh. :wink: However, I'll humor ya.
Demographics - if you live in a predominately white neighborhood, it's not surprising that the climbing population reflects that.
Media Ignorance - Bias would be a better word. Flip through a Black Diamond catalogue, the Alpinist, or Climbing--how often do you see non-Whites? Probably not often. Why? It could be a marketing, or perhaps that's the way things were at that moment.
Money - I talked about thisincluding the poor climbers.
Access by Minorities - exposure? The media exposure's out there, but the initiation is much easier when it's on a person-to-person basis. The main issue here is actually ethnic cliques.
Definition of a Minority - older thread.
European Conquerers - far-fetched and not thought out. Why did the Europeans go out and venture? Economical reasons? Technological capabilities at the time? Not to mention you have yet to address Genghis Khan and the migration to Japan.
So what then?
Nothing. :P
Even I believe that the percentage of minority climbers isn't high, but I don't see how this belief is bothersome. And if people consider me to be a racist for seeing ethnic divides, then I'm calling 'em liars who claim to be colorblind.
PS Black people love me.
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chouca
Mar 18, 2004, 5:27 PM
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Lots of factors played into why Europeans went out seeking new lands while many world cultures ran into similiar challenges, yet did not expand into every corner of the globe. Of coarse, other cultures ventured forth, but not on the scale of the Euros. If you know of any, enlighten me.
Conquest is a different matter, and that is a universal trait. The Khan empire personified this. You can still see remnants of that dynasty in the Tartar features of the people in the Near East, and well into Central Europe.
You don't seem like a racist to me, and I'd be weary of high minded types that easily tar people with that label. It puts someone on the defensive and stifles debate. It often means that you are not going along with their "program", which is a confusing hybrid of multi-culturalism AND color blindness. I don't get it either.
Marc B.
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climbsomething
Mar 18, 2004, 7:45 PM
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I don't think about climbing minorities much, and I think I might even be one...
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novak89
Mar 19, 2004, 4:49 AM
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Chouca…chouca..chouca
It’s hard to decide where to begin when confronted with such ignorance and stupidity. It’d also be unjust if I didn’t mention how blatantly racist your remarks on this forum have been. Needless to say, I read your posts in complete shock, and had to shake my head at the brazenness of your remarks.
Are you seriously telling myself, and everyone else on this forum, that you, the epitome of ill-guided logic, actually believes that the reason minorities aren’t interested in extreme sports traces back to cultural and genetic differences from pre-colonial times. Is this some kind of joke?
Are you really parochial enough to believe that Europeans, because of their "expansion and exploration" quests, are the only culture that engaged in high risk/gain activities? Such an assumption is an egregious mistake, and furthermore, warrants a lesson in world history. I suggest an examination of Native American, African, Middle Eastern, and Oriental cultures.
You ask to be enlightened on other cultures that have expanded to every corner of the globe like the "Euros". You say this as if imperialistic expansion was a good thing. The reason Europeans seemed to have pioneered imperialism is because of their insatiable greed for power and wealth. This is the impetus that drove the Europeans, that drove their technology, which drove their expansion.
The reason why there aren’t any cultures that expanded like the Europeans is because no other culture had such an insatiable drive. They lacked this impetus, thus, saw no need for its resulting technology.
Chouca, I can understand how in High School, they probably only instructed you in European world history. However, it’s a shame that you never bothered to learn about the rest of the world, for you probably believe that Columbus was a great man.
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curt
Mar 19, 2004, 4:54 AM
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STFU n00b. You're an idiot. Oh, and welcome to rockclimbing.com.
Curt
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drkodos
Mar 19, 2004, 6:40 AM
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Awesome funny stuff.
Good one.
Most of these type never know they are these types, but I guess that's what makes it funnier.
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bumblie
Mar 19, 2004, 1:16 PM
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In reply to: Chouca…chouca..chouca It’s hard to decide where to begin when confronted with such ignorance and stupidity. It’d also be unjust if I didn’t mention how blatantly racist your remarks on this forum have been. The reason why there aren’t any cultures that expanded like the Europeans is because no other culture had such an insatiable drive.
Perhaps you've heard of Gengis Khan???
http://www.geocities.com/...orum/2532/page4.html
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bwnco
Mar 19, 2004, 6:55 PM
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:roll: I know a lot of blacks here in the USA. I have never met one from Africa? (oops I take that back, a runner from Nigeria, now he is an African in america)......... So are the rest of us, Irish americans, Haitian americans, Jamaica americans. Italian american........? Me, im an american despite what color I am or where my great grandfather came from. Thats not to say you shouldnt be proud of it, but if you live and was born in america, I believe you are an American, not african, Irish or what ever...........
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wildtrail
Mar 20, 2004, 7:39 AM
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In reply to: http://www.rockclimbing.com/articles/view.php?ID=266 - So what's the truth out there? Do you believe the fools who think minorities aren't out there?
No. I climb with a guy from time to time that is "ethnic". He's black.
Also, in response to the question on the front page about climbing needing "affirmative action" i'd say no. Why would it need it? Those who are drawn to climbing are so for specific reasons. Reasons that have nothing to do with race.
However, climbing is not "marketed" to minorities. I meet quite a few black people at my favorite pool hall on Saturday nights and most of them are unaware of any specifics. Obviously, they aren't stupid. They know what I mean when I say "I rock climb," but it isn't promoted like basketball or football is to minorities, which is really stereotypical, but that's the way this country works.
I think minorities, especially black people, would excell at climbing. Often, black people are more athletic than the majority. Still, it comes down to how things are marketed. If Nike made a climbing shoe, the sport of climbing would be advertised more heavily and most likely aimed towards minorities (i.e. Michael Jordan hanging from a sloper 100' feet off the deck) and would generate an influx of new climbers from all walks of life.
Basically, between what is and is not marketed and to whom and society that pushes minorities to ethnic-specific sports (i.e. black people and basketball or hispanic people and soccer, etc) is why there aren't more climbers from certain races.
At least, that's how I see it.
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wildtrail
Mar 20, 2004, 6:04 PM
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In reply to: :roll: I know a lot of blacks here in the USA. I have never met one from Africa? (oops I take that back, a runner from Nigeria, now he is an African in america)......... So are the rest of us, Irish americans, Haitian americans, Jamaica americans. Italian american........? Me, im an american despite what color I am or where my great grandfather came from. Thats not to say you shouldnt be proud of it, but if you live and was born in america, I believe you are an American, not african, Irish or what ever...........
That I don't think is true. Maybe by "status" only. I'm German/Sicilian. Not American. I'm a German/Siclian American citizen, though. Don't get me wrong. I'm proud (to a point) of this country, but there is no such thing as "American" outside of status and title. Nope, I'm German/Siclian. That is my race.
Just my opinion.
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novak89
Mar 20, 2004, 6:51 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: http://www.rockclimbing.com/articles/view.php?ID=266 - So what's the truth out there? Do you believe the fools who think minorities aren't out there? However, climbing is not "marketed" to minorities. I meet quite a few black people at my favorite pool hall on Saturday nights and most of them are unaware of any specifics. Obviously, they aren't stupid. They know what I mean when I say "I rock climb," but it isn't promoted like basketball or football is to minorities, which is really stereotypical, but that's the way this country works. Still, it comes down to how things are marketed. If Nike made a climbing shoe, the sport of climbing would be advertised more heavily and most likely aimed towards minorities (i.e. Michael Jordan hanging from a sloper 100' feet off the deck) and would generate an influx of new climbers from all walks of life. Basically, between what is and is not marketed and to whom and society that pushes minorities to ethnic-specific sports (i.e. black people and basketball or hispanic people and soccer, etc) is why there aren't more climbers from certain races. At least, that's how I see it.
Wildtrail makes a great point. I completely agree.
Bumblie,
Of course i've heard of Genghis Khan. Good point. But according to chouca, "Conquest is a different matter", a point I don't agree with.
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stonefiend
Mar 20, 2004, 8:07 PM
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controversy is a waste of time.
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chouca
Mar 21, 2004, 1:00 AM
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novak89,
Not trying to beat a dead thread, but I feel your condescending remarks and name calling must be addressed. Being called a racist is common for someone of your ilk and means nothing to me. I have zero white guilt. But ignorant and stupid I do take exception with.
1) "Are you really parochial enough to believe that Europeans, because of their "expansion and exploration" quests, are the only culture that engaged in high risk/gain activities?"
You are taking that out of context. I did say that whites have a tendency to seek out these type of activities for recreation, and also when we do not need to, but when doing so offers enhancements, like for spices and trade routes.
2) "Such an assumption is an egregious mistake, and furthermore, warrants a lesson in world history. I suggest an examination of Native American, African, Middle Eastern, and Oriental cultures."
Wow, you sure provided some enlightening and detailed examples there! I minored in Western Civilization during college, and that was taught from a Middle Eastern perspective, by one of the foremost experts on Middle Eastern studies of that era. I also student taught and led study groups in that subject. Forgive me I trust my esteemed professor's judgement in my historical knowledge over yours.
3) You ask to be enlightened on other cultures that have expanded to every corner of the globe like the "Euros". You say this as if imperialistic expansion was a good thing. The reason Europeans seemed to have pioneered imperialism is because of their insatiable greed for power and wealth.
I enjoy the fruits of colonialism, so why would I disparage it? My family was able to get off the continent many generations ago and come to the USA. The standard of living people enjoy in the western world is unparalelled. Our ability to acquire resources from all over the world makes this lifestyle possible. Travels abroad only reinforce my gratitude in being a US citizen. And yes, power is preferable to weakness, and wealth is much better than poverty. I have no moral qualms with imperialism or conquest.
4) "The reason why there aren’t any cultures that expanded like the Europeans is because no other culture had such an insatiable drive. They lacked this impetus, thus, saw no need for its resulting technology."
Thanks for making my point for me. You are stating that Europeans had enormous drive and technological savvy. Are you contending that everybody else was living in peaceful coexistence while powermad Europeans were developing methods of usurping the rest of the world? Other cultures COULD have developed means to do the same thing, but they had too much concern for their fellow man? Regardless of why, we agree that some unique trait existed among the Euros that propelled them to such great heights.
5) "Chouca, I can understand how in High School, they probably only instructed you in European world history. However, it’s a shame that you never bothered to learn about the rest of the world, for you probably believe that Columbus was a great man."
novak89, I have also read much revisionist history, and the funny thing is, the facts don't change too much, just the perspective. History
that was once taught in a matter of fact manner in old text, is now infused with PC ideology that downplays the achievements of dead white men, casting those accomplishments in as negative light as possible. It is just an example of the losers rewriting history to satisfy esteem issues while taking swipes at the dominant culture. Suggest something that challenges the orthodoxy and that also has no ideological axe to grind, and I will immerse myself in it. As you would expect, I do admire Christopher Columbus. Columbus Day is my birthday.
See, we can disagree on issues. No need for rude name calling and put downs. We can be civil. At least I can. As for my brazeness, I make no apologies. That is how people talk off campus, not mincing words and walking on eggshells. If you find my delivery coarse, your ears would be horrified by the manner in which people communicate in an urban environment.
Marc B.
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slcliffdiver
Mar 21, 2004, 1:41 AM
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In reply to: My best guess is that more blacks do not climb because climbing is perceived as a "white" activity. Some other posters in this thread have mentioned basically similar thoughts. I asked Mike Freeman years ago, why there were so many great black athletes and so few black climbers. He told me (among other things) that he had tried to interest some of his black friends in climbing, but that none of them showed the slightest interest in trying it. cut Curt
I think there might be some undertones that come with something being viewed as "a white activity". My most frequent skiing partner during the early 80's to early 90's? was Black. Two things I noticed while skiing with him; one people would "look" (he was often the only black person on the slopes), two people tended to pull more passive aggressive sh** against him while skiing than almost anywhere else we went together. Two other notes the guy was 6'7 an ex college linebacker and a super cool ER doc. The reason I mentioned these things is that one he could have easily pounded pretty much everyone that behaved like an a** and two it definitely wasn't an skier economic prejudice he had nice as stuff as anyone. I'm betting it would have been at least somewhat worse if he were a small and skinny but also I think it shows how confident the different pr*cks felt being surrounded by other white people. There is usually a fairly strong aversion to antagonizing someone who could easily beat you senseless with one hand while drinking coffee with the other. There was one idiot I really felt like pounding for him but my friend told him off a lot more appropriately than I was about to.
My points are when there is a place dominated with "white people"; one people have a tendency to stare a bit more when someone who isn't white shows up (not saying this is always or even mostly racism) and two people that are racist seem to feel free to be a bit nastier (I've noticed both things in a variety of circumstances). I'm betting there are a fair number of people who are "minorities" in the US who have noticed the same thing and I'm guessing for some people there is at least a subtle disincentive to not start things that are perceived to be dominated by "white people" in the US because of this. Not saying these are the only reasons or the primary reasons, I'm just guessing there is some effect.
From my observation "black people" to tend to be the pretty statistically under represented in climbing in the eastern US (I have had black climbing partners and have seen black climbers just not anywhere near as statistically represented). More so than most "minorities" and more so than any socioeconomic stuff would account for. I grew up just outside of DC and about 1/3rd of my friends were "white", 1/3rd "black" and a third other "minorities". I have to say on average my "black" friends faced more overt racism by a fair amount more than my asian, hispanic etc. friends though it definitely wasn't limited to my black friends. I guessing that has at least a little to do with it.
I skimmed through the posts so pardon me if I missed something but I found it odd that no one here mentioned racism being alive and kicking in the US and it's "sometimes" subtle pressures having anything to do with question at hand (Edit: ummm wrong minorities in climbing thread :oops: ). Honestly I haven't noticed a significant "increase" in prejudice against blacks in climbing like I have in some other places that weren't very racially mixed so maybe thats why people haven't thought of it. But the perception of entering a venue that isn't totally racially mixed may still be somewhat of a disincentive for some people.
I think there might be one very unfortunate consequence to this thread if people don't pay attention. If people assume regardless if it's true or not that "minorities" will be less likely to want to go climbing even on an unconscious level it probably wouldn't be difficult to invite a lower percentage of "minorities" on a subconscious bases and perpetuate the trend. The more people expect rejection the less people are likely to ask something or even think to ask it in the first place.
Peace
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bukel
Mar 23, 2004, 4:06 AM
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I didn't want to tell you guys, but rock climbers are a minoritiy.
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robmcc
Mar 23, 2004, 3:56 PM
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In reply to: I didn't want to tell you guys, but rock climbers are a minoritiy.
So are people who post relevant or insightful comments.
Rob
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bwnco
Mar 23, 2004, 10:31 PM
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In reply to: So are whites! Take a look around, if you're white, you're a minority. I went for a business loan 2 years ago. I was told if I am not a women or a minority, there was no need to apply. Go figure, I think we should just all get along....how about that?
Right on Gansscr!!! :mrgreen:
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