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jimdavis
Dec 14, 2004, 5:32 AM
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Oh! and Curt....
Let me know when Boreal asks you to write the manual for their shoes.
Thanks!
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curt
Dec 14, 2004, 5:38 AM
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In reply to: I would use this belay technique if there were no other options. I would never let anybody use it on me (having a fat ass) and a paranoia about being droped. Hey Curt, this should probably be in the ask Curt a question thread but is Bocelli's new CD any good? I like Romanza and I believe it is his best CD to date. Did you know he is blind?
Yes, I know he is blind, just like jimdavis. I'm not sure about his new CD, but I have all the others. Sogno is my favorite, but Romanza is good too.
Curt
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jimdavis
Dec 14, 2004, 5:42 AM
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In reply to: Yes, I know he is blind, just like jimdavis.
What a bitter man...
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pooks
Dec 14, 2004, 5:45 AM
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thank you curt (sincerely!) for another hilarious episode. i love that when what i'm doing gets tedious, i can check this thread for a good laugh. c'mon kids, if you have to pick a fight, make sure your opponent isn't a bigger smart-ass than you are.
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curt
Dec 14, 2004, 5:53 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Wow. Your profile says that you have been climbing for three whole years now. Such vast experience you have. Obviously everyone here should listen to you. Do you really think you look very intelligent putting your climbing credentials up against mine, or Brent Bingham's or Chris Raypole's? They are the other guys who developed this belay technique with me last weekend. Give it a break n00b. Oh, and don't forget to clean off the mirror after you pop your zits before going to bed tonight, kid. There is no reason to leave your mother with that mess to deal with. Curt Ooops! Nobody should listen to me, I'm a noob. You should all listen to Curt, the master of what's right. Obiviously Curt is a better climber, and a better mud-slinger, so he must be right. I forgot about that whole the "authority is always right" thing. Us newer climbers need to stop thinking for ourselves and follow in the older generations footsteps, even if they seem wrong. Right Curt? Not challenging your climbing resume Curt...just you intelligence, and your character...both of with your proven masterfully in this thread.
Yes, I am in fact a much better climber than you are and have a wealth of climbing experience you will probably never have. Let's really consider who started the mud slinging here. I started a post about a new belay technique that works really well, within the given caveats I posted and you, with no knowledge of this technique whatsoever, slam it and me personally.
Then you admit that you are challenging my intelligence and character, again with no idea of what you are talking about, regarding this particular belay technique. With regard to intelligence, I am pretty sure I don't have to worry about running into you at any MENSA or Glia Society meetings I go to. With regard to character, you really ought to look closely at who began the "slinging mud" here.
If you think you somehow look smart by exposing your ignorance here, you are badly mistaken. Give it up n00b.
Curt
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jefffski
Dec 14, 2004, 5:53 AM
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when i climb i make one assumption--it is dangerous. therefore everything i do is done to minimize the associated risks. yes, i have been in risky situations--no fall zones etc. those were mistakes or calculated moments when given my situation there was little choice. in hindsight i cudda maybe shudda backed down.
but your idea says something totally different. it is introducing risk to a situation (top roping) which we all know can be reduced to near zero with a little experience, education and due care and attention.
were i to conceive of an idea such as yours, i would be sure to test it to the point of failure and in as many situations as possible before sharing it with the world.
people here have pointed out several hazards with your idea which you have ignored nilly willy.
it is conceivable, nay, likely, that a belayer would have to move without warning. i don't need a rock or a boar attack to cause that. even something as simple as a tangle in the rope that required my immediate attention might require a quick shuffle or move. climbing is like that. i want my systems to be able to absorb the unexpected.
your system (and i am hard put to use that word) is a 'if nothing goes wrong' system.
please move this thread to the newbie category where it belongs.
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curt
Dec 14, 2004, 6:03 AM
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In reply to: when i climb i make one assumption--it is dangerous. therefore everything i do is done to minimize the associated risks. yes, i have been in risky situations--no fall zones etc. those were mistakes or calculated moments when given my situation there was little choice. in hindsight i cudda maybe shudda backed down. but your idea says something totally different. it is introducing risk to a situation (top roping) which we all know can be reduced to near zero with a little experience, education and due care and attention. were i to conceive of an idea such as yours, i would be sure to test it to the point of failure and in as many situations as possible before sharing it with the world. people here have pointed out several hazards with your idea which you have ignored nilly willy. it is conceivable, nay, likely, that a belayer would have to move without warning. i don't need a rock or a boar attack to cause that. even something as simple as a tangle in the rope that required my immediate attention might require a quick shuffle or move. climbing is like that. i want my systems to be able to absorb the unexpected. your system (and i am hard put to use that word) is a 'if nothing goes wrong' system. please move this thread to the newbie category where it belongs.
There are no "hazards" to this system I have ignored. Calling it a "if nothing goes wrong" system is incorrect. Again, if you haven't tried it, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. This belay method is not meant to replace everything we know about belaying with something new. Rather, it is a means by which you can perform TR belays safely if you do not have a harness or swami belt on--and do not have a belay device either. It is merely an alternative to a hip belay--and should be evaluated as such.
Curt
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jimdavis
Dec 14, 2004, 6:06 AM
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In reply to: Let's really consider who started the mud slinging here. I started a post about a new belay technique that works really well, within the given caveats I posted and you, with no knowledge of this technique whatsoever, slam it and me personally.
No, I merely pointed out the manorism is which you defend yourself. By insulting others.
You are simply a bitter, hostile person, who belives he has to be right.
You have a history of doing it, all over this site.
Suggesting something as stupid as this, given all the reasonable alternatives, is stupid...and yet you continue to defend yourself as if what you have to say is the word of God.
In reply to: Yes, I am in fact a much better climber than you are and have a wealth of climbing experience you will probably never have
Not only are you an elitist, but a Fortune Teller too.
Get over yourself, Curt. Your coming off as pretty pathetic.
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eyecannon
Dec 14, 2004, 6:08 AM
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This new technique, it is practically foolproof! I see nothing wrong with using it...
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vegastradguy
Dec 14, 2004, 6:14 AM
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to be honest, it looks fine to me. my current partner only belays me with hip belays, so i'm not really sure what the big fuss is about.
of course, i should caveat this by saying that a dynamic catch or a catching a lead fall where you would be lifted off the ground would probably be dangerous or at least require a large amount of attention on belay.
all that said, i'd use it for TR, but i'd be hesistant to use it on lead if only for the situation described above.
btw- nice call jt on the responses to this one!
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jakedatc
Dec 14, 2004, 6:20 AM
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awesome curt...
In reply to: but your idea says something totally different. it is introducing risk to a situation (top roping)
if you had read his first post correctly you would have seen that they were bouldering.. and were top roping high balls... they could have tossed their pad (if they even had one) down and solo'd the thing.. OR they could have used the foot belay and given the climber a chance instead of an automatic grounder if they blew it... decreased the risk
on the way up if i was sketched i'd choose the rope.. though i may find a better way to down climb instead of being lowered haha but that is without having used it so grain of salt.
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curt
Dec 14, 2004, 6:20 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Let's really consider who started the mud slinging here. I started a post about a new belay technique that works really well, within the given caveats I posted and you, with no knowledge of this technique whatsoever, slam it and me personally. No, I merely pointed out the manorism is which you defend yourself. By insulting others. You are simply a bitter, hostile person, who belives he has to be right. You have a history of doing it, all over this site. Suggesting something as stupid as this, given all the reasonable alternatives, is stupid...and yet you continue to defend yourself as if what you have to say is the word of God. In reply to: Yes, I am in fact a much better climber than you are and have a wealth of climbing experience you will probably never have Not only are you an elitist, but a Fortune Teller too. Get over yourself, Curt. Your coming off as pretty pathetic.
Why don't we just let people here decide for themselves who has greater credibility in the climbing community? I am an "elitist" and you are a poseur and wannabe with very little experience or knowledge to back up your baseless assertions.
Curt
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jumpingrock
Dec 14, 2004, 6:20 AM
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Obviously the problem with this belay technique is that it is not taught in the gym. And if it's not taught in the gym then it's not safe.
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jefffski
Dec 14, 2004, 6:27 AM
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In reply to: awesome curt... In reply to: but your idea says something totally different. it is introducing risk to a situation (top roping) if you had read his first post correctly you would have seen that they were bouldering.. and were top roping high balls.
perhaps in this situation. but curt is positing that this is a new belay technique that could be used in general for top roping.
i stand by my comments. introducing this technique without a s**tload of testing smacks of negligence.
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jimdavis
Dec 14, 2004, 6:36 AM
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In reply to: I am an "elitist" and you are a poseur and wannabe with very little experience or knowledge to back up your baseless assertions. Curt
No, I've done....rather you've done a VERY good job at prooving your a bitter a$$hole.
Baseless assertions? Your prooving me right with every responce...
See my post on page 5 for a list of your insults on this thread alone. You've added a few more since then to!
Keep 'em coming Curt! They might make your "Foot Wrap (dare I call it)... Belay Technique " look like more than a bad idea and a waste of time.
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camhead
Dec 14, 2004, 6:37 AM
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sorry curt, I don't buy it.
I mean, we all know how dangerous tying in on a bowline-coil is. It can suffocate people!
All it would take for disaster to happen would be for the climber to take a fall while you were busy staring a the hottie on the next climb over, thus forgetting to lower him. Two, maybe three hours of gawking at prana tops, and your partner could be DEAD. That's why I would only try this method if the climber was wearing a very comfy bigwall harness.
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curt
Dec 14, 2004, 6:42 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: awesome curt... In reply to: but your idea says something totally different. it is introducing risk to a situation (top roping) if you had read his first post correctly you would have seen that they were bouldering.. and were top roping high balls. perhaps in this situation. but curt is positing that this is a new belay technique that could be used in general for top roping. i stand by my comments. introducing this technique without a s**tload of testing smacks of negligence.
Why don't you collect your own data and prove me wrong. At this point, I have infinitely more experience with this belay method than you do. Also, I have proposed a means by which (with a back-up belay) anyone can try this for themselves--with no risk to the climber at all. I think your future comments may be taken more seriously if you have some first hand experience, which is always superior to mere speculation.
Curt
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curt
Dec 14, 2004, 6:48 AM
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In reply to: sorry curt, I don't buy it. I mean, we all know how dangerous tying in on a bowline-coil is. It can suffocate people! All it would take for disaster to happen would be for the climber to take a fall while you were busy staring a the hottie on the next climb over, thus forgetting to lower him. Two, maybe three hours of gawking at prana tops, and your partner could be DEAD. That's why I would only try this method if the climber was wearing a very comfy bigwall harness.
Excellent point, Paul. I will add that to the list of caveats where this belay is applicable. Haha.
Curt
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curt
Dec 14, 2004, 6:57 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I am an "elitist" and you are a poseur and wannabe with very little experience or knowledge to back up your baseless assertions. Curt No, I've done....rather you've done a VERY good job at prooving your a bitter a$$hole. Baseless assertions? Your prooving me right with every responce...
You spelled response wrong. Not the brightest bulb on the tree, are you? Let me see if I can summarize. RC.com readers are going to have to figure out whether they should take the word of someone who has actually experienced and experimented with this new belay technique, first hand, who also has 25 years of high level climbing experience that encompasses trad, alpine, bouldering, sport, etc. (that would be me) or, instead believe a snot nosed n00b with three years of climbing under their belt (that is you) who has never tried this belay method.
Yeah, that's a tough choice. :lol:
Curt
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jefffski
Dec 14, 2004, 7:03 AM
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In reply to: At this point, I have infinitely more experience with this belay method than you do. Curt
that would be incorrect. comparing your experience to ours (0 for us) is undefined. any number divided by zero is undefined.
something akin to the amount of testing you have done before making your claim of a new technique which in your 'infinite' wisdom is safe. ha!
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david.yount
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Dec 14, 2004, 7:11 AM
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In reply to: On an unrelated note, this thread kind of reminds me of the one that described a couple of guys going to their local climbing gym to test the strength of those little key chain beiners. They said that no matter how far they ran it out and whipped off as hard as they could, the key chain beiner refused the break. Sketchy to say the least, and the thread was deleted. Any bets on how long this one will last. :wink:
We climbed to the top in a gym, installed the accessory biner on a draw below the top anchors, clipped a rope thru the accessory biner but not thru the top anchors, and took lead falls.
We used a second rope, thru the top anchors, as backup, in case the ~2.5mm radius edge on the accessory biner severed the primary rope.
Both ropes were left clipped into their respective high points. As we climbed from the ground we would "synchronize" the two ropes at some point; the backup rope was left with about 8-feet slack to catch the climber in case the primary rope was severed in the lead fall. The climber would continue to the top, and then jump off.
After 7 falls, the accessory biner did not break.
I'd far rather have a few of these "key chain" biners doing auxiliary work with my climbing gear than any other "key chain" biner I've seen (chalk bag, nut tool, water bottle, etc). In an emergency, I have a reasonable trust in using these for life supporting duty based on my personal experience.
I donated all other "key chain" biners (many were brightly colored plastic) and invested in several additional Metolius "NOT FOR CLIMBING" "650kg" accessory biners.
David Yount.
PS I too have used the "boot belay" for rigging purposes, and I feel it's an entertaining piece of knowledge to practice with for my edification. Further, I would be delighted to have this additional safety while bouldering. Thanks for sharing Curt!
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alpnclmbr1
Dec 14, 2004, 7:19 AM
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A little story from the first time that I ever climbed with a guide. No we didn't pay for it, with money anyway. The guide was the leading so cal guide (ex yos sar team) and his friend was a leading climbing author.
Anyway, for whatever reason they decided to take us under their wing as the guide's client went home early. They enticed us with the offer of a probable FA TR. So they rigged an anchor off of a tree with a directional about 20 feet to the side of the tree. The top rope set up had a lot of drag. The belay method of their choice was at least one hand on the rope. Who were we to argue?
Being shown this reality by two of the most experienced climbers around was quite enlightening.
In terms of a choice between a foot belay by Curt and a device belay by the average rc.commer in the scenario that he described. I will take Curt's foot belay.
Curt's new silly beta is probably safe enough in the hands of someone like Curt. However what is safe enough in the hands of one person is not necessarily safe in the hands of another person. Anyone that doesn't understand that, has problems.
It is something that noob's do not understand, and it is something very basic to climbing. In a sense it comes down to being able to do something stupidly unsafe in a safe manner.
I also have used the boot belay in conjunction with a grigri and other devices.
The only thing that i do not understand about Curt's story is why they would lower while tied in with a bowline on a coil? We used to kind of avoid that...
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curt
Dec 14, 2004, 7:22 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: At this point, I have infinitely more experience with this belay method than you do. Curt that would be incorrect. comparing your experience to ours (0 for us) is undefined. any number divided by zero is undefined. something akin to the amount of testing you have done before making your claim of a new technique which in your 'infinite' wisdom is safe. ha!
In fact, it is quite correct to say that dividing by zero gives infinity. But 'infinity' is not a number. So this is just another way of saying that division by zero does not have an answer that can be written. You're not a math major either, are you? Hahahaha.
Curt
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jimdavis
Dec 14, 2004, 7:22 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I am an "elitist" and you are a poseur and wannabe with very little experience or knowledge to back up your baseless assertions. Curt No, I've done....rather you've done a VERY good job at prooving your a bitter a$$hole. Baseless assertions? Your prooving me right with every responce... You spelled response wrong. Not the brightest bulb on the tree, are you? Let me see if I can summarize. RC.com readers are going to have to figure out whether they should take the word of someone who has actually experienced and experimented with this new belay technique, first hand, who also has 25 years of high level climbing experience that encompasses trad, alpine, bouldering, sport, etc. (that would be me) or, instead believe a snot nosed n00b with three years of climbing under their belt (that is you) who has never tried this belay method. Yeah, that's a tough choice. :lol: Curt
Not arguing who people need to listen to about your "belay" technique...people can decide that for themselves.
You must have missed that in just about all of my posts. Brightest bulb on the tree... atleast this one is lit.
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curt
Dec 14, 2004, 7:26 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I am an "elitist" and you are a poseur and wannabe with very little experience or knowledge to back up your baseless assertions. Curt No, I've done....rather you've done a VERY good job at prooving your a bitter a$$hole. Baseless assertions? Your prooving me right with every responce... You spelled response wrong. Not the brightest bulb on the tree, are you? Let me see if I can summarize. RC.com readers are going to have to figure out whether they should take the word of someone who has actually experienced and experimented with this new belay technique, first hand, who also has 25 years of high level climbing experience that encompasses trad, alpine, bouldering, sport, etc. (that would be me) or, instead believe a snot nosed n00b with three years of climbing under their belt (that is you) who has never tried this belay method. Yeah, that's a tough choice. :lol: Curt Not arguing who people need to listen to about your "belay" technique...people can decide that for themselves. You must have missed that in just about all of my posts. Brightest bulb on the tree... atleast this one is lit.
"Lit" as in drunk maybe, you certianly make no sense. Keep digging yourself into a deeper hole though, I don't mind. Tell us again why anyone should care about your opinion on anything related to climbing? Haha. Please, cite some more of your vast experience--especially with the belay technique I am talking about.
Curt
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