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dingus
Jan 12, 2006, 5:10 PM
Post #126 of 240
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In reply to: After all those people on all the previous threads arguing loudly that everybody was making way too big a deal out of something that they felt simply wasn't an issue are now, in effect, shown that it is a serious issue, why aren't there more "I told ya so!"s ? Maybe we still haven't established that it is a serious issue? (please... :roll: )
I'll take a stab at this:
because most everyone who's weighed in on this takes the entire subject quite seriously. I don't think anyone really cares if they are the perceived oracle of rc.com or get to notch their lipstick case with another debate win.
I think it is far more about concerns for a highly valued protection device that is now under a very serious cloud of doubt.
For every time the posse gets it right however, how many times is it a great sound and fury, signifying nothing?
At the core however, I respect your central point... not the crowing, but the community service. Without edits (so far as I know), without censorship, an open forum, staying on message and affecting change. I agree with you, score one for RC.COM.
Seriously.
But the gloating? Sorely misplaced in this thread. Save that for some political romp in Community.
Cheers!
DMT
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bobruef
Jan 12, 2006, 5:13 PM
Post #127 of 240
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In reply to: I am totatally amazed that there aren't more posts consisting entirely of "I told ya so! I told ya so!" on this board. Maybe that's in a different thread and I missed it? The "Aliens and CCH I told ya so!" thread?
For some reason, I'm not feeling incredibly victorious at the moment. I'd have rather been proven wrong.
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dingus
Jan 12, 2006, 5:13 PM
Post #128 of 240
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In reply to: ...why, it's like having Paul Fish around to do pull tests. ;-) Who would have thought that a retailer would step up like this? Anyways, it is always a credit to an organization when they are willing to step up for the common good, more so when it's the president of the company putting his neck out. Thanks Paul.
Damn right. Malcom too. This is a very positive development and I'm gratified to see it evolved in an open forum, of its own volition (as opposed to having a soapbox protected editorial page or some censored experts forum).
Well done tim and rc.com!
DMT
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billcoe_
Jan 12, 2006, 5:18 PM
Post #129 of 240
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First: I want to apologize to Quitemonk who claimed to have an alien pull apart at Shelf road back in Feb 2005 (title of post was "Aliens are dangerous"). He never showed up with pics and was severely flamed as a liar and a troll.
Sorry dude.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...&topic_view=&start=0
Basically that said this "In reply to: I was climbing in South Platte last weekend, and I took a short twelve foot fall near the top of the pitch. To my surprise, my new silver alien ripped apart. The cable that is connected to the top part of the cam totally ripped out of place, and the small cables going the cams pulled apart. Needless to say, the placement failed and I fell to my next piece (thankfully, it was only a few feet below!). Has anyone else had this happen? Are aliens CE certified? Are there any recalls? I'm never going to climb on the damn things again...TCU's & Zeros forever!
Next to CCH, I would say you could have looked into this yourself, been pro-active, DONE THE RIGHT THING and avoided 90% of the grief you are about to get. There has been story after story of various failures which you have not addressed or dissed.
I have no sympathy with you (bad word voluntarily removed) at all. You (bad word voluntarily removed) . Shame on you for the way you handled these kinds of complaints and the slack way you have done business. My life is obviously worth more to me than to you, but it "appears" to have little or no value to you.
I am grateful that no one lost their life over your lack of hubris and extreme lameness. Shame on you (bad word voluntarily removed) .
Lastly, the earlier poster who said that mgear was a big company and could afford this recall. That's Bulls*it. It will cost them lots of money, and they more than stepped up to the plate -unlike CCH. I just received in a set of offsets a few days ago from mgear. The paperwork on the returns of these kinds of things alone will cost them and other small shops more in manpower than I want to imagine. This may amount to a pimple on the ass of REI, but everybody else in the retail world will have some pain, and thats not good or right for them or for us. The suggestion that CCH step up and, after woking on bettering their mfg process's and testing arrangements: then do the recall, is what I agree with. (straight exchange of cams at the retailer - and CCH should pay the freight both ways too).
I want to see further testing though before I return all my aliens to anybody. I grew up with a "The leader must not fall" mentality and tend not to fall.
Still, there have been times I've been looking at a ground fall with nothing between me and the dirt but a TCU or an Alien so it's still disturbing to me.
But I'd rather find a way to test them myself and keep them on the rack.
Maybe CCH will get around to stepping up to the plate. Course, that bus has already left the station. It could very well take them down. Unfortunately for all of us.
Regards to all:
Bill
editied to remove some bad words: "(bad word voluntarily removed)"
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tgreene
Jan 12, 2006, 5:20 PM
Post #130 of 240
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I'm pretty certain that if it were not for the Ouray Ice Fest this week, and OR just around the corner, that we would likely see many more industry insiders commenting and working in regards to this issue, because they are all aware of it, and many have expressed concerns in all aspects.
Unfortunately, this is a horrific time of year for these guys, but the upside is that many of these same industry leaders will be spending a lot of time together throughout the next few weeks, and we have to hope that they will circle the wagons...
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tgreene
Jan 12, 2006, 5:28 PM
Post #131 of 240
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In reply to: But I'd rather find a way to test them myself and keep them on the rack.
I posted the following in the "#0 and 00n tcu's safe??" thread...
In reply to: Additionally, the safest way to test specific gear, would be to establish a system that uses 2 ropes & belayers. 1 to belay you as a normal trad belay, and the other on a top rope with just enough slack to allow you to fully weight a placement, yet still cfreate a safe catch... You are however likely to get banged up in the process, unless this is is setup on an overhanging route, but you are at least assured of a good catch via the TR. |
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roy_hinkley_jr
Jan 12, 2006, 5:36 PM
Post #132 of 240
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In reply to: They do claim to be CE and UIAA certified, whatever that means.
That means they have the equivalent of ISO 9001 for quality assurance (a requirement of CE), so there is a paper trail on all materials and production runs. It also means that the sample cams passed the UIAA steel crack tests at an independent lab (in the UK).
CCH lists these ratings in the brochure:
Black = 1860 lbs. = 8 kn
Blue = 2200 lbs. = 10 kn
Red, Green, Yellow = 2700 lbs. = 12 kn
White, violet, orange = 3700 lbs. = 16.5 kn
Still need more info on the testing by Mgear.
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dudemanbu
Jan 12, 2006, 5:40 PM
Post #133 of 240
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Registered: Jun 3, 2005
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Good: we have more information regarding this subject
Bad: see below
Ugly: everything else about this situation.
I guess at best, maybe someone's life will be saved thanks to this. That right there my friends is priceless.
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heiko
Jan 12, 2006, 5:46 PM
Post #134 of 240
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In reply to: girldrifter (heilko??) wrote: " Climbing gear are engineered products. If you want/have to guarantee a certain strength, the only way to achieve this is to work with safety factors. This is normal engineering practice. If a cam says "10kn" this reads "will hold AT LEAST 10kn" and not "will hold AT MOST 10kn". Otherwise this rating would be utter nonsense, because "at most" would also include a failure at ZERO kn" i like that - very well put! by the way: how does that work - girldrifter - with the dog face (on the post not the person!) and heilko also with the dog face! ?
thanks for the flowers... other people obviously disagreed ;)
[aside:
girldrifter and I are two different people. we just use the same pic in the signature. this is likely to change. ]
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bison
Jan 12, 2006, 6:10 PM
Post #135 of 240
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I just got a call from R&S about my blue alien. There is definitly a defective batch out there. Apparently CCH outsourced some of the work and the guy didn't let the metal cool properly. There is a way to inspect your cams and if they are defective is will be clearly identifiable. I won't go into how you can tell just call them or CCH. All mine are good and I'm ready to climb on them with confidence.
Cheers.
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bobruef
Jan 12, 2006, 6:18 PM
Post #136 of 240
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I'm sorry, R&S?
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healyje
Jan 12, 2006, 6:19 PM
Post #137 of 240
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In reply to: I just got a call from R&S about my blue alien. There is definitly a defective batch out there. Apparently CCH outsourced some of the work and the guy didn't let the metal cool properly. There is a way to inspect your cams and if they are defective is will be clearly identifiable. I won't go into how you can tell just call them or CCH. All mine are good and I'm ready to climb on them with confidence. Cheers.
What exactly is the nature of the problem/defect that you discussed with R&S? Is there some specific reason why you feel you can't or won't simply explain how to tell if there is a problem with our Blue ones? Is there some problem with simply providing the information you were provided?
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tradklime
Jan 12, 2006, 6:21 PM
Post #138 of 240
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In reply to: CCH lists these ratings in the brochure: Black = 1860 lbs. = 8 kn Blue = 2200 lbs. = 10 kn Red, Green, Yellow = 2700 lbs. = 12 kn White, violet, orange = 3700 lbs. = 16.5 kn
Yes, I wonder what they mean in light of another CCH statement:
"Minimum Strength (kN): The minimum holding force for Alien cams is 5 kN."
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bison
Jan 12, 2006, 6:24 PM
Post #139 of 240
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Registered: Oct 14, 2004
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Ok. He told me look at the base of the "bulb" where the axle goes through the stem. If there is a dimple there, looks like it's been center punched, then it's defective. Please don't take my word for it and call someone about it. Peace.
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lewisiarediviva
Jan 12, 2006, 6:33 PM
Post #140 of 240
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In response to outdoorsieIn reply to: I'M SURE EVERYONE WAS HOPING AND PRAYING THAT THIS WAS ACTUALLY AN ELOBOARTE HOAX, OR AT THE VERY LEAST AN EXTREMELY ISOLATED INCIDENT! :cry:
Can you imagine being the owner of a company and suddenly having something of this magnitude thrown in your face? Not only does the problem have to be figured out but how you missed the problem in the first place- and how to avoid bankruptcy.
I think I'd rather be president of the United States and have my most serious fault be leaked to the public.
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bison
Jan 12, 2006, 6:44 PM
Post #142 of 240
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Registered: Oct 14, 2004
Posts: 10
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Everyone needs to calm down. Aliens are bomber. The blue one saved my life when another cam pulled out right above it. You can inspect your cams for the defect, just read a few posts above. They are most likely just fine.
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ckirkwood9
Jan 12, 2006, 6:50 PM
Post #144 of 240
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have you got a pic you can post?
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kaylinr
Jan 12, 2006, 6:52 PM
Post #145 of 240
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Registered: Mar 13, 2004
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In reply to: Ok. He told me look at the base of the "bulb" where the axle goes through the stem. If there is a dimple there, looks like it's been center punched, then it's defective. Please don't take my word for it and call someone about it. Peace.
For this to have any credibility whatsoever, I want to see a picture of the of this dimple/punch mark on the original orange Alien that started this whole mess. If that one has a normal clean bulb, then I don't feel one iota better!
PS, I gave trophies to all the posters who ignored all this stats mess and pointed out that the brazes failed. That is the only significant point to be gleaned from all this so far.
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bison
Jan 12, 2006, 6:53 PM
Post #146 of 240
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Registered: Oct 14, 2004
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I can post a pic of a perfectly good alien but you probably have one yourself. If you ordered from R&S they will be calling you telling there will be a recall. I'm satisfied with mine because I know they were made in house.
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bison
Jan 12, 2006, 6:56 PM
Post #147 of 240
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Registered: Oct 14, 2004
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This is only a guess but I'm guessing that the ones that failed the mgear test are all dimpled.
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mowz
Jan 12, 2006, 7:06 PM
Post #148 of 240
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I called mgear to ask them to verify that the OP was a true representitive of mgear just to be sure we weren't being trolled or deceptively led by some guy with a grudge against CCH or some guy working for another company.
The OP is mgear.
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chanceboarder
Jan 12, 2006, 7:12 PM
Post #149 of 240
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Registered: Oct 6, 2003
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just got a call from a representative of http://alpenglowgear.com/ (where i picked up 2 gold aliens several months ago) informing me about the dimple and that they will be posting photo of what it looks like on their site some time today if no one else finds a photo of this first.
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healyje
Jan 12, 2006, 7:15 PM
Post #150 of 240
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In reply to: I called mgear to ask them to verify that the OP was a true representitive of mgear just to be sure we weren't being trolled or deceptively led by some guy with a grudge against CCH or some guy working for another company.
Folks, it seems incredible to have to say this as we are way, way past it at this point, but...
*** THIS IS NOT HOAX ***
*** THIS IS NOT HOAX ***
- THE OP, CCH, AND MGEAR DO AUTHENTICALLY REPRESENT WHO THEY CLAIM TO BE
- THESE THREADS/POSTS ARE ABOUT REAL INCIDENTS/ISSUES
- CCH AND MULTIPLE INDUSTRY PARTNERS AND PEERS HAVE BEGUN TAKING STEPS TO ADDRESS THE THESE ISSUES INCLUDING RETAILERS TAKING RETURNS AND CCH STARTING THE STEPS TO INITIATE A FORMAL RECALL
- PLEASE DO NOT ARBITRARILY CREATE NEW CCH THREADS
*** THIS IS NOT HOAX ***
*** THIS IS NOT HOAX ***
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