Apr 10, 2011, 1:27 AM
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Re: [ceebo] what is the max # of pull ups a 5.14 climber can do in one go?
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ceebo wrote:
Well, i find it unlikely that their is not a large population of climbers who do not have the same raw finger strength to weight as a v13 climber.
Interesting. You should probably contact Mr. McLeod and inform him that his published study is flawed. If possible, be sure to explain that "you find it unlikely" so that he can go back and make the necessary corrections.
ceebo wrote:
Raw finger strength is just not hard to build, takes no thought. It is only by training everything else with dedication and a willingness to learn that those climbers reached such high grades.
Remember the part before when i said causation vs. correlation? That means something. To give you an example: If you take a V13/5.14 climber and compare them to a V6/5.12 climber, it will be very unlikely that they have comparable finger strength to weight ratio. That doesn't mean the higher grade climbers climb that grade solely due to more finger strength. What it does mean, however, is that a certain level of finger strength (and probably a low level of body mass) is mandatory to climb at that level. Is it possible that some of the climbers in the lower grade group have equal finger strength-to-weight? It's unlikely, but yes-- it is possible. The important part to focus on is that, according to the published journal article which is based on a study conducted by researchers specializing in sports medicine and based on real world research, encountering that scenario is unlikely and would be an outlier. But again, you'll probably want to inform them that they're wrong.
(This post was edited by sp00ki on Apr 10, 2011, 1:40 AM)
Apr 10, 2011, 1:56 PM
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Re: [sp00ki] what is the max # of pull ups a 5.14 climber can do in one go?
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sp00ki wrote:
ceebo wrote:
Well, i find it unlikely that their is not a large population of climbers who do not have the same raw finger strength to weight as a v13 climber.
Interesting. You should probably contact Mr. McLeod and inform him that his published study is flawed. If possible, be sure to explain that "you find it unlikely" so that he can go back and make the necessary corrections.
ceebo wrote:
Raw finger strength is just not hard to build, takes no thought. It is only by training everything else with dedication and a willingness to learn that those climbers reached such high grades.
Remember the part before when i said causation vs. correlation? That means something. To give you an example: If you take a V13/5.14 climber and compare them to a V6/5.12 climber, it will be very unlikely that they have comparable finger strength to weight ratio. That doesn't mean the higher grade climbers climb that grade solely due to more finger strength. What it does mean, however, is that a certain level of finger strength (and probably a low level of body mass) is mandatory to climb at that level. Is it possible that some of the climbers in the lower grade group have equal finger strength-to-weight? It's unlikely, but yes-- it is possible. The important part to focus on is that, according to the published journal article which is based on a study conducted by researchers specializing in sports medicine and based on real world research, encountering that scenario is unlikely and would be an outlier. But again, you'll probably want to inform them that they're wrong.
No, v6 to v13 is a huge gap. I was thinking more around the area of v8-v10. Take out all the week end climbers.. those who do it with no intention of getting better (for fun), and those who do not climb severe overhangs and i would say a majority of ''real climbers'' are around v7+, 5.12. I should have been more specific. In any case, even a high end 5.12 climber will have comparable finger strength to a 5.14 of the same body weight, but the moves from hold to hold are in another world regarding body tension, movement initiation etc etc. If i could give my finger strength alone to a 5.14 climber i'm certain with his other far superior attributes he would be climbing a damn site harder than what i currently can.
Maybe i read it all wrong, i was thinking that raw maximum finger strength and strength endurance are not the same. If they are then sorry, i misunderstood.
Apr 10, 2011, 2:22 PM
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Re: [sp00ki] what is the max # of pull ups a 5.14 climber can do in one go?
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sp00ki wrote:
Is it possible that some of the climbers in the lower grade group have equal finger strength-to-weight? It's unlikely, but yes-- it is possible.
I bumble in the upper 5.11´s and I´ve got a considerably higher finger strength/weight ratio than my buddy who scratches in the 5.14´s. Having big hands and working metal all day means I can crush a strain guage better than him, doesn´t help a toss on the rock though!
Apr 10, 2011, 5:51 PM
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Re: [JimTitt] what is the max # of pull ups a 5.14 climber can do in one go?
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JimTitt wrote:
I bumble in the upper 5.11´s and I´ve got a considerably higher finger strength/weight ratio than my buddy who scratches in the 5.14´s. Having big hands and working metal all day means I can crush a strain guage better than him, doesn´t help a toss on the rock though!
Jim
Wrong kind of hand strength, most likely. Your friend would probably have the greater ratio of finger strength to body weight as measured on a climbing-specific finger strength apparatus.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Apr 10, 2011, 5:51 PM)
Apr 11, 2011, 5:36 AM
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Re: [JimTitt] what is the max # of pull ups a 5.14 climber can do in one go?
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JimTitt wrote:
sp00ki wrote:
Is it possible that some of the climbers in the lower grade group have equal finger strength-to-weight? It's unlikely, but yes-- it is possible.
I bumble in the upper 5.11´s and I´ve got a considerably higher finger strength/weight ratio than my buddy who scratches in the 5.14´s. Having big hands and working metal all day means I can crush a strain guage better than him, doesn´t help a toss on the rock though!
Jim
IMPOSSIBLE, assuming your measuring the finger strength accurately. For example, go campus on campus rungs with this buddy, dont skip any rungs so your only moving 6 inches or so, isolating finger strength, then see who can do more reps on progressively smaller rungs.
Or, get small holds on hang boards, hand them with one hand and see who fails first.
The difference between 5.11 and 5.14 is NIGHT and DAY.
BTW, I know non climbers who aren't much bigger tan me that can grip on one of those rated grip thingys harder than me.
Apr 11, 2011, 5:49 AM
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Re: [flesh] what is the max # of pull ups a 5.14 climber can do in one go?
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flesh wrote:
JimTitt wrote:
sp00ki wrote:
Is it possible that some of the climbers in the lower grade group have equal finger strength-to-weight? It's unlikely, but yes-- it is possible.
I bumble in the upper 5.11´s and I´ve got a considerably higher finger strength/weight ratio than my buddy who scratches in the 5.14´s. Having big hands and working metal all day means I can crush a strain guage better than him, doesn´t help a toss on the rock though!
Jim
IMPOSSIBLE, assuming your measuring the finger strength accurately. For example, go campus on campus rungs with this buddy, dont skip any rungs so your only moving 6 inches or so, isolating finger strength, then see who can do more reps on progressively smaller rungs.
Or, get small holds on hang boards, hand them with one hand and see who fails first.
The difference between 5.11 and 5.14 is NIGHT and DAY.
BTW, I know non climbers who aren't much bigger tan me that can grip on one of those rated grip thingys harder than me.
You're overlooking the importance of technique. It's possible for a climber who has less finger strength to climb harder then the other because of good technique.
Two climbers climbing a vertical crimpy routes, one with good footwirk, one with bad footwork. The one with good foot work will use less strength to succeed than the one who has good footwork.
I know more than one climber who are much stronger than me, obvious when bouldering, especially on artificial walls, than can't climb as hard as me because I am more confident on the cliff than they are.
My confidence means I trust my feet more, and tend to not over-grip as much. Because of those two issues alone, I can climb more difficult routes even when they are significantly stronger than me.
While strength does make a difference in your climbing ability, the climber with the most finger strength is guaranteed to be the one who climbs harder.
We're not even getting in jamming and crack climbing yet.
Apr 11, 2011, 6:44 AM
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Re: [guangzhou] what is the max # of pull ups a 5.14 climber can do in one go?
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guangzhou wrote:
flesh wrote:
JimTitt wrote:
sp00ki wrote:
Is it possible that some of the climbers in the lower grade group have equal finger strength-to-weight? It's unlikely, but yes-- it is possible.
I bumble in the upper 5.11´s and I´ve got a considerably higher finger strength/weight ratio than my buddy who scratches in the 5.14´s. Having big hands and working metal all day means I can crush a strain guage better than him, doesn´t help a toss on the rock though!
Jim
IMPOSSIBLE, assuming your measuring the finger strength accurately. For example, go campus on campus rungs with this buddy, dont skip any rungs so your only moving 6 inches or so, isolating finger strength, then see who can do more reps on progressively smaller rungs.
Or, get small holds on hang boards, hand them with one hand and see who fails first.
The difference between 5.11 and 5.14 is NIGHT and DAY.
BTW, I know non climbers who aren't much bigger tan me that can grip on one of those rated grip thingys harder than me.
You're overlooking the importance of technique. It's possible for a climber who has less finger strength to climb harder then the other because of good technique.
Two climbers climbing a vertical crimpy routes, one with good footwirk, one with bad footwork. The one with good foot work will use less strength to succeed than the one who has good footwork.
I know more than one climber who are much stronger than me, obvious when bouldering, especially on artificial walls, than can't climb as hard as me because I am more confident on the cliff than they are.
My confidence means I trust my feet more, and tend to not over-grip as much. Because of those two issues alone, I can climb more difficult routes even when they are significantly stronger than me.
While strength does make a difference in your climbing ability, the climber with the most finger strength is guaranteed to be the one who climbs harder.
We're not even getting in jamming and crack climbing yet.
Of course it's not guaranteed. Also, I'm talking about finger strength to weight ratio, not just finger strength. This confidence your speaking of makes a big difference, also, you could have more endurance than these boulderers who dont do well on the cliff.
If this guy said he climber 5.13 and had greater finger strength to weight ratio than some other 5.14 climber, I'd believe it, but not 5.11 to 5.14. NOT going to happen, when measuring climbing related finger strength. I've never seen a 5.11 climber with even remotely close to the finger strength to weight ratio of a 5.14 climber.
The biggest discrepancy I've ever seen is a guy who bouldered v8 that had better finger strength, pure power that is, to weight ratio then a particular 5.14 climber. This v8 boulderer did his first v11 3 months after the comparison.... and now he's done a few v13's including some consensus very difficult ones. He's 6 ft. 1 and 160 lbs, 5% body fat.
Technique makes a big difference but if you think it goes that far your just telling yourself bed time stories.
Also, technique and the mental aspect can create a much bigger discrepancy in performance especially on the lower grades, say , below 5.12. You simply can't technique your way up 5.14, you must be super fit. Maybe, if you found a 200 ft. 5.14a you could use technique and relatively low finger strenth to get up it, but you'd still be super fit to do so and would have trained for this atypical type of endurance route as well.
The sooner you realize how big a diff finger strength to weight matters, the sooner your climbing will skyrocket.
Apr 11, 2011, 6:52 AM
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Re: [flesh] what is the max # of pull ups a 5.14 climber can do in one go?
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flesh wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
flesh wrote:
JimTitt wrote:
sp00ki wrote:
Is it possible that some of the climbers in the lower grade group have equal finger strength-to-weight? It's unlikely, but yes-- it is possible.
I bumble in the upper 5.11´s and I´ve got a considerably higher finger strength/weight ratio than my buddy who scratches in the 5.14´s. Having big hands and working metal all day means I can crush a strain guage better than him, doesn´t help a toss on the rock though!
Jim
IMPOSSIBLE, assuming your measuring the finger strength accurately. For example, go campus on campus rungs with this buddy, dont skip any rungs so your only moving 6 inches or so, isolating finger strength, then see who can do more reps on progressively smaller rungs.
Or, get small holds on hang boards, hand them with one hand and see who fails first.
The difference between 5.11 and 5.14 is NIGHT and DAY.
BTW, I know non climbers who aren't much bigger tan me that can grip on one of those rated grip thingys harder than me.
You're overlooking the importance of technique. It's possible for a climber who has less finger strength to climb harder then the other because of good technique.
Two climbers climbing a vertical crimpy routes, one with good footwirk, one with bad footwork. The one with good foot work will use less strength to succeed than the one who has good footwork.
I know more than one climber who are much stronger than me, obvious when bouldering, especially on artificial walls, than can't climb as hard as me because I am more confident on the cliff than they are.
My confidence means I trust my feet more, and tend to not over-grip as much. Because of those two issues alone, I can climb more difficult routes even when they are significantly stronger than me.
While strength does make a difference in your climbing ability, the climber with the most finger strength is guaranteed to be the one who climbs harder.
We're not even getting in jamming and crack climbing yet.
Of course it's not guaranteed. Also, I'm talking about finger strength to weight ratio, not just finger strength. This confidence your speaking of makes a big difference, also, you could have more endurance than these boulderers who dont do well on the cliff.
If this guy said he climber 5.13 and had greater finger strength to weight ratio than some other 5.14 climber, I'd believe it, but not 5.11 to 5.14. NOT going to happen, when measuring climbing related finger strength. I've never seen a 5.11 climber with even remotely close to the finger strength to weight ratio of a 5.14 climber.
The biggest discrepancy I've ever seen is a guy who bouldered v8 that had better finger strength, pure power that is, to weight ratio then a particular 5.14 climber. This v8 boulderer did his first v11 3 months after the comparison.... and now he's done a few v13's including some consensus very difficult ones. He's 6 ft. 1 and 160 lbs, 5% body fat.
Technique makes a big difference but if you think it goes that far your just telling yourself bed time stories.
Also, technique and the mental aspect can create a much bigger discrepancy in performance especially on the lower grades, say , below 5.12. You simply can't technique your way up 5.14, you must be super fit. Maybe, if you found a 200 ft. 5.14a you could use technique and relatively low finger strenth to get up it, but you'd still be super fit to do so and would have trained for this atypical type of endurance route as well.
The sooner you realize how big a diff finger strength to weight matters, the sooner your climbing will skyrocket.
I can most likely go on any Marine Corp base in America and find oy a dozen guys who have greater finger than some 5.14 climbers.
I can definitely find you Marine who can do more pull-ups.
Apr 11, 2011, 6:58 AM
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Re: [guangzhou] what is the max # of pull ups a 5.14 climber can do in one go?
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guangzhou wrote:
flesh wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
flesh wrote:
JimTitt wrote:
sp00ki wrote:
Is it possible that some of the climbers in the lower grade group have equal finger strength-to-weight? It's unlikely, but yes-- it is possible.
I bumble in the upper 5.11´s and I´ve got a considerably higher finger strength/weight ratio than my buddy who scratches in the 5.14´s. Having big hands and working metal all day means I can crush a strain guage better than him, doesn´t help a toss on the rock though!
Jim
IMPOSSIBLE, assuming your measuring the finger strength accurately. For example, go campus on campus rungs with this buddy, dont skip any rungs so your only moving 6 inches or so, isolating finger strength, then see who can do more reps on progressively smaller rungs.
Or, get small holds on hang boards, hand them with one hand and see who fails first.
The difference between 5.11 and 5.14 is NIGHT and DAY.
BTW, I know non climbers who aren't much bigger tan me that can grip on one of those rated grip thingys harder than me.
You're overlooking the importance of technique. It's possible for a climber who has less finger strength to climb harder then the other because of good technique.
Two climbers climbing a vertical crimpy routes, one with good footwirk, one with bad footwork. The one with good foot work will use less strength to succeed than the one who has good footwork.
I know more than one climber who are much stronger than me, obvious when bouldering, especially on artificial walls, than can't climb as hard as me because I am more confident on the cliff than they are.
My confidence means I trust my feet more, and tend to not over-grip as much. Because of those two issues alone, I can climb more difficult routes even when they are significantly stronger than me.
While strength does make a difference in your climbing ability, the climber with the most finger strength is guaranteed to be the one who climbs harder.
We're not even getting in jamming and crack climbing yet.
Of course it's not guaranteed. Also, I'm talking about finger strength to weight ratio, not just finger strength. This confidence your speaking of makes a big difference, also, you could have more endurance than these boulderers who dont do well on the cliff.
If this guy said he climber 5.13 and had greater finger strength to weight ratio than some other 5.14 climber, I'd believe it, but not 5.11 to 5.14. NOT going to happen, when measuring climbing related finger strength. I've never seen a 5.11 climber with even remotely close to the finger strength to weight ratio of a 5.14 climber.
The biggest discrepancy I've ever seen is a guy who bouldered v8 that had better finger strength, pure power that is, to weight ratio then a particular 5.14 climber. This v8 boulderer did his first v11 3 months after the comparison.... and now he's done a few v13's including some consensus very difficult ones. He's 6 ft. 1 and 160 lbs, 5% body fat.
Technique makes a big difference but if you think it goes that far your just telling yourself bed time stories.
Also, technique and the mental aspect can create a much bigger discrepancy in performance especially on the lower grades, say , below 5.12. You simply can't technique your way up 5.14, you must be super fit. Maybe, if you found a 200 ft. 5.14a you could use technique and relatively low finger strenth to get up it, but you'd still be super fit to do so and would have trained for this atypical type of endurance route as well.
The sooner you realize how big a diff finger strength to weight matters, the sooner your climbing will skyrocket.
I can most likely go on any Marine Corp base in America and find oy a dozen guys who have greater finger than some 5.14 climbers.
Apr 11, 2011, 7:23 AM
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Re: [jt512] what is the max # of pull ups a 5.14 climber can do in one go?
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As someone who spent several years climbing, developing, and guiding on the Island of Okinawa, yes.
I took plenty of Marine who could not only dead hand on their finger tips much longer than the climbers but could also do more finger tip pull-ups. Non of them climbed harder than the climbers did.
On the 5.14 front, I have not done one yet, but I will. Came Very Close to doing one of Sharma's 5.14 on Okinawa, but close isn't god enough in my book.
While I do think that the Individual's strength to weight ratio is important, I don't think that a climber with higher strength to weight ratio will necessarily out climb the weaker Strength to weight ratio.
Jay, you sure spend a lot of time in the middle of night posting.
Apr 11, 2011, 7:42 AM
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Re: [guangzhou] what is the max # of pull ups a 5.14 climber can do in one go?
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guangzhou wrote:
As someone who spent several years climbing, developing, and guiding on the Island of Okinawa, yes.
I took plenty of Marine who could not only dead hand on their finger tips much longer than the climbers but could also do more finger tip pull-ups. Non of them climbed harder than the climbers did.
On the 5.14 front, I have not done one yet, but I will. Came Very Close to doing one of Sharma's 5.14 on Okinawa, but close isn't god enough in my book.
While I do think that the Individual's strength to weight ratio is important, I don't think that a climber with higher strength to weight ratio will necessarily out climb the weaker Strength to weight ratio.
Jay, you sure spend a lot of time in the middle of night posting.
I've resorted to finding data.
Was pretty easy, he's your comparison of elite climbers, recreational climbers, and regular guys.
http://www.climbing.com.au/elite_recreational.htm
Looks like elite climbers are significantly stronger than recreational climbers and regular guys in climbing related finger strength among other things.
Guang, remeber this all started because I called bull on a 5.11 climber having the same finger strength to weight ratio of a 5.14 climber.
Apr 11, 2011, 12:38 PM
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Re: [flesh] what is the max # of pull ups a 5.14 climber can do in one go?
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flesh wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
In any case, even a high end 5.12 climber will have comparable finger strength to a 5.14 of the same body weight . . .
I call bullshit.
Jay
Concur.
Also, ceebo, building finger strength, is far from easy.
How do you ever come to this conclusion? I don't think I've ever heard a climber say that before.
Cmon flesh, surely you understand what i mean. Ofc building finger strength is HARD on you, but the preparation, dedication and thought needed to do it is nothing compared to the other climbing attributes.
Take a v10 climber who is making slight errors on a problem, like an inch here or their body position. That slight difference could put something like 10% extra load onto his fingers. Now, take a v12 climber who ''may'' have better technique.. he likely is climbing v12 problems with less error, and maybe only puts 3-5% extra unneeded load onto his fingers (estimates ofc).
In that situation the v10 climber with slight error is exposing himself to similar kind of finger load that the v12 climber is. Even you yourself said you made gains from weighted climbing on ''easy'' holds.. so how is this significantly different?, especially if you consider that this v10, to the v10 climber is not ''easy''.
Given the fact that people can and do use hang boards and campus boards, how can anybody say a v8-10 climber can not have the same finger strength to weight ratio as a v12-v13 climber?. Ofc they can.. but they can easily lack in another aspect that will hold them back significantly.
It may not even be down to technique, it could be down to weakness in the other larger body muscles. Somebody who used mainly a hang board could lack the power and contact gained in campusing. And.. on top of that, not everybody who uses a campus board do doubles. Also, somebody may have done lots of dead hangs, but limited overhanging climbs. Allot of hard climbs are over hanging, targeting finger strength don't teach the rest of your body how to climb those.
I understand why you think the way you do, since after targeting your fingers and losing weight you sky rocketed in grades. But you forgot about all the years prior to that of training the other fundamental attributes.
By your opinion, what you suggest (taking into account your other posts) is that a climber who reaches v6 can start to target their finger strength, lose some weight then expect to get to v10 or so?. Getting to v6 is not that difficult, some done it in a year, some in 3. Either way i find it unlikely that person has the other skills needed to climb v10+. or the comparable sport grades.. even though he may develop the finger strength in the coming year or so.
Apr 11, 2011, 3:40 PM
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Re: [flesh] what is the max # of pull ups a 5.14 climber can do in one go?
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flesh wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
As someone who spent several years climbing, developing, and guiding on the Island of Okinawa, yes.
I took plenty of Marine who could not only dead hand on their finger tips much longer than the climbers but could also do more finger tip pull-ups. Non of them climbed harder than the climbers did.
On the 5.14 front, I have not done one yet, but I will. Came Very Close to doing one of Sharma's 5.14 on Okinawa, but close isn't god enough in my book.
While I do think that the Individual's strength to weight ratio is important, I don't think that a climber with higher strength to weight ratio will necessarily out climb the weaker Strength to weight ratio.
Jay, you sure spend a lot of time in the middle of night posting.
I've resorted to finding data.
Was pretty easy, he's your comparison of elite climbers, recreational climbers, and regular guys.
http://www.climbing.com.au/elite_recreational.htm
Looks like elite climbers are significantly stronger than recreational climbers and regular guys in climbing related finger strength among other things.
Guang, remeber this all started because I called bull on a 5.11 climber having the same finger strength to weight ratio of a 5.14 climber.
In reply to:
Not because I said technique was not important.
Unfortunately, "elite climber" in that study was defined as having led at least E1 on the British adjectival scale in the past year, E1 being about 5.10a, according to Wikipedia. So, that study does not answer the question.
Apr 12, 2011, 1:59 AM
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Re: [jt512] what is the max # of pull ups a 5.14 climber can do in one go?
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jt512 wrote:
flesh wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
As someone who spent several years climbing, developing, and guiding on the Island of Okinawa, yes.
I took plenty of Marine who could not only dead hand on their finger tips much longer than the climbers but could also do more finger tip pull-ups. Non of them climbed harder than the climbers did.
On the 5.14 front, I have not done one yet, but I will. Came Very Close to doing one of Sharma's 5.14 on Okinawa, but close isn't god enough in my book.
While I do think that the Individual's strength to weight ratio is important, I don't think that a climber with higher strength to weight ratio will necessarily out climb the weaker Strength to weight ratio.
Jay, you sure spend a lot of time in the middle of night posting.
I've resorted to finding data.
Was pretty easy, he's your comparison of elite climbers, recreational climbers, and regular guys.
http://www.climbing.com.au/elite_recreational.htm
Looks like elite climbers are significantly stronger than recreational climbers and regular guys in climbing related finger strength among other things.
Guang, remeber this all started because I called bull on a 5.11 climber having the same finger strength to weight ratio of a 5.14 climber.
In reply to:
Not because I said technique was not important.
Unfortunately, "elite climber" in that study was defined as having led at least E1 on the British adjectival scale in the past year, E1 being about 5.10a, according to Wikipedia. So, that study does not answer the question.
Jay
Your so good with data, lol. I just saw elite climber and assumed they were elite. But they still were stronger at 5.10 right? I guess that doesn't prove they would be alot stronger than that at 5.14, lol, I can't even believe I have to defend this. Oh well, believe what you wanna believe peeps.
Ceebo, there are boulder problems that are v12 that are not techy at all. Literally as complicated as doing three crimp moves in a row with the same foot holds to a jug. Someone with the finger strength to weight to do it, who tried, would succeed. Also, someone would most likely find something they could climb harder on , if they had bad technique, and send. People tend to climb their strengths.
I do have good technique from years of climbing, there are many boulders that don't require it however. I remember a article done on real elite climbers..... from a mag about 10 years ago that measured climbing related finger strength.. it was very clear.. I'll try to find it.
Apr 12, 2011, 2:38 AM
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Re: [flesh] what is the max # of pull ups a 5.14 climber can do in one go?
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flesh wrote:
jt512 wrote:
flesh wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
As someone who spent several years climbing, developing, and guiding on the Island of Okinawa, yes.
I took plenty of Marine who could not only dead hand on their finger tips much longer than the climbers but could also do more finger tip pull-ups. Non of them climbed harder than the climbers did.
On the 5.14 front, I have not done one yet, but I will. Came Very Close to doing one of Sharma's 5.14 on Okinawa, but close isn't god enough in my book.
While I do think that the Individual's strength to weight ratio is important, I don't think that a climber with higher strength to weight ratio will necessarily out climb the weaker Strength to weight ratio.
Jay, you sure spend a lot of time in the middle of night posting.
I've resorted to finding data.
Was pretty easy, he's your comparison of elite climbers, recreational climbers, and regular guys.
http://www.climbing.com.au/elite_recreational.htm
Looks like elite climbers are significantly stronger than recreational climbers and regular guys in climbing related finger strength among other things.
Guang, remeber this all started because I called bull on a 5.11 climber having the same finger strength to weight ratio of a 5.14 climber.
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Not because I said technique was not important.
Unfortunately, "elite climber" in that study was defined as having led at least E1 on the British adjectival scale in the past year, E1 being about 5.10a, according to Wikipedia. So, that study does not answer the question.
Jay
Your so good with data, lol. I just saw elite climber and assumed they were elite. But they still were stronger at 5.10 right? I guess that doesn't prove they would be alot stronger than that at 5.14, lol, I can't even believe I have to defend this. Oh well, believe what you wanna believe peeps.
Ceebo, there are boulder problems that are v12 that are not techy at all. Literally as complicated as doing three crimp moves in a row with the same foot holds to a jug. Someone with the finger strength to weight to do it, who tried, would succeed. Also, someone would most likely find something they could climb harder on , if they had bad technique, and send. People tend to climb their strengths.
I do have good technique from years of climbing, there are many boulders that don't require it however. I remember a article done on real elite climbers..... from a mag about 10 years ago that measured climbing related finger strength.. it was very clear.. I'll try to find it.
I read a good academic study on this a while ago, I'll post it tomorrow after I get to the library where I have access. If I remember correctly it supports the hypothesis that high level climbers have greater finger strength. I think the strongest climber in the study was climbing 13s though.
Apr 12, 2011, 2:47 AM
Post #147 of 151
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Re: [jbro_135] what is the max # of pull ups a 5.14 climber can do in one go?
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I don't think I found what I was looking for, but these were certainly interesting:
This one addresses Jim Titt's massive hand strength from metalworking and lack of climbing ability
Jennifer Sansom, et al. "FOREARM EMG DURING ROCK CLIMBING DIFFERS FROM EMG DURING HANDGRIP DYNAMOMETRY." International Journal of Exercise Science 1.1 (2008): 4-13. SPORTDiscus with Full Text. EBSCO. Web. 11 Apr. 2011.
This one is an experiment that aims to develop a useful tool for predicting climbing ability, which is certainly relevant to this discussion.
Gavin Blackwell, et al. "Development of a performance assessment tool for rock climbers." European Journal of Sport Science 9.3 (2009): 159-167. SPORTDiscus with Full Text. EBSCO. Web. 11 Apr. 2011.
(I got these through my university library collection, you may or may not be able to find them for free)
Apr 12, 2011, 5:16 AM
Post #148 of 151
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Re: [flesh] what is the max # of pull ups a 5.14 climber can do in one go?
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flesh wrote:
jt512 wrote:
flesh wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
As someone who spent several years climbing, developing, and guiding on the Island of Okinawa, yes.
I took plenty of Marine who could not only dead hand on their finger tips much longer than the climbers but could also do more finger tip pull-ups. Non of them climbed harder than the climbers did.
On the 5.14 front, I have not done one yet, but I will. Came Very Close to doing one of Sharma's 5.14 on Okinawa, but close isn't god enough in my book.
While I do think that the Individual's strength to weight ratio is important, I don't think that a climber with higher strength to weight ratio will necessarily out climb the weaker Strength to weight ratio.
Jay, you sure spend a lot of time in the middle of night posting.
I've resorted to finding data.
Was pretty easy, he's your comparison of elite climbers, recreational climbers, and regular guys.
http://www.climbing.com.au/elite_recreational.htm
Looks like elite climbers are significantly stronger than recreational climbers and regular guys in climbing related finger strength among other things.
Guang, remeber this all started because I called bull on a 5.11 climber having the same finger strength to weight ratio of a 5.14 climber.
In reply to:
Not because I said technique was not important.
Unfortunately, "elite climber" in that study was defined as having led at least E1 on the British adjectival scale in the past year, E1 being about 5.10a, according to Wikipedia. So, that study does not answer the question.
Jay
Your so good with data, lol. I just saw elite climber and assumed they were elite. But they still were stronger at 5.10 right? I guess that doesn't prove they would be alot stronger than that at 5.14, lol, I can't even believe I have to defend this. Oh well, believe what you wanna believe peeps.
I didn't say I disagreed with you. I said that your evidence doesn't support your claim. There's a difference.
Apr 12, 2011, 6:25 AM
Post #149 of 151
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Re: [flesh] what is the max # of pull ups a 5.14 climber can do in one go?
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flesh wrote:
Ceebo, there are boulder problems that are v12 that are not techy at all. Literally as complicated as doing three crimp moves in a row with the same foot holds to a jug. Someone with the finger strength to weight to do it, who tried, would succeed.
That sounds like "el techo de los tres b" in hueco. Awesome problem, i need to get stronger and go back to link that thing.
Apr 12, 2011, 9:11 AM
Post #150 of 151
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Re: [Rufsen] what is the max # of pull ups a 5.14 climber can do in one go?
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Rufsen wrote:
flesh wrote:
Ceebo, there are boulder problems that are v12 that are not techy at all. Literally as complicated as doing three crimp moves in a row with the same foot holds to a jug. Someone with the finger strength to weight to do it, who tried, would succeed.
That sounds like "el techo de los tres b" in hueco. Awesome problem, i need to get stronger and go back to link that thing.
The hardest part of those three move problems is trying to figure out the sequence.
(This post was edited by guangzhou on Apr 12, 2011, 9:11 AM)
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