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tim
Mar 22, 2005, 7:15 PM
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In reply to: The new "slick" logo is an attrocity
Care to elaborate? I find it hard to believe that anyone can look at the monkey and the C-section (current logo) and come to the conclusion that the monkey has poorer production values. The concept may need some tweaking, but out of the succession of logos we've had here, I am flabbergasted to hear that people find the monkey to be the most 'amateur'.
Especially given that the past FOUR logos the site has gone through were designed by professionals. (Which, as you may be aware, does not guarantee wide public embrace or an omniscient clairvoyance about competing brandings of a logo)
In reply to: and I have no doubt the company will suffer as a result.
Gotta disagree with you there. Our designer can pull a new image out of nowhere in a couple of hours; I've seen it (repeatedly) and the fit & finish is far superior to anything we've seen before. The 'slick' part is not, IMHO, the problem here. The problem is that it's a slick implementation of a concept that was not the best representation for our identity at this time.
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dingus
Mar 22, 2005, 7:31 PM
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In reply to: Unless you were getting to a more esoteric point like is reality an external absolute or is it purely a construct of the mind? :wink:
No. My point is the IBM logo conveys NOTHING beyond the initials of the company. Zip. Zilch. Nada. Everything you wrote came from your head, not the logo.
DMT
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jt512
Mar 22, 2005, 7:31 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: And yes, even a simple "non-graphic" logo (like IBM) can communicate something about the company. It does so at a more intuitive level. Please, what intuitive communications are contained in the following logo? http://www.ibm.com/i/v14/t/ibm-logo.gif List them for me right here if you would be so kind. Thanks DMT Stability Simplicity Conservative Order Functionality Quality Reliability Here are a few starters.....your welcome. Thanks. Surely intuition is in the mind of the human, not in the graphics of the logo? DMT It's in the brand, the graphic doesnt matter squat. WTF is the Nike Swoosh? Unless you were getting to a more esoteric point like is reality an external absolute or is it purely a construct of the mind? :wink:
You guys who don't think a logo communicates a brand's image are totally out to lunch. Yeah, even, or especially, the Nike swoosh, a streamline form implying speed. Ever watch Roadrunner cartoons? What is the shape of the whirls of dust that the Roadrunner leaves in his wake? Comapre and contrast to the Nike swoosh. Comapre and contrast to the IBM logo. Which implies speed? Which implies stability?
-Jay
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zozo
Mar 22, 2005, 7:37 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Unless you were getting to a more esoteric point like is reality an external absolute or is it purely a construct of the mind? :wink: No. My point is the IBM logo conveys NOTHING beyond the initials of the company. Zip. Zilch. Nada. Everything you wrote came from your head, not the logo. DMT
If that's the case then IBM sure got ripped off considering the millions they spent on developing their logo and positiong their brand.
Ask their marketing reps Dingus Im sure they would tell you you dont know what your talking about. But that's ok.
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jt512
Mar 22, 2005, 7:38 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Unless you were getting to a more esoteric point like is reality an external absolute or is it purely a construct of the mind? :wink: No. My point is the IBM logo conveys NOTHING beyond the initials of the company. Zip. Zilch. Nada. Everything you wrote came from your head, not the logo. DMT
But how come "speed," lightheartedness," and "tender loving care" didn't come from their heads when they saw the logo? Tough question in this case because the brand is known; but in blind comparisons (blind meaning the brand is unknown) of new logos that I have conducted, there is no question that different logos evoke different images.
-Jay
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slavetogravity
Mar 22, 2005, 7:46 PM
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Ok, in keeping with the idea of finding an acutall solution to this problem. Here's another thoght.
http://www.needlesports.com/...Hrkk__Hrkk__138.html
Has anyone here heard of a woman named Tami Knight? She's a cartoonist who makes a living making fun of people like us. She's written illustrations for John Long's books, as well as hundreds of cartoons that have been published in Rock and Ice and Climbing Magazine. Her images are widely recognized withing the climbing world, and anything that Tami could come up with I'd gladly be behind. Perhaps our logo could be an illustration of one of her climbing rats pointing and grimacing while saying "Logo, we don't need no stinken' logo!"
At the very least it would show that we have a sense of humour.
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pmyche
Mar 22, 2005, 7:51 PM
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tim, I think grayhghost was referring to the revised UPS logo, not the monkey.
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dingus
Mar 22, 2005, 8:04 PM
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In reply to: but in blind comparisons (blind meaning the brand is unknown) of new logos that I have conducted, there is no question that different logos evoke different images. -Jay
The images of which have nothing to do with the brand.
DMT
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dingus
Mar 22, 2005, 8:17 PM
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In reply to: If that's the case then IBM sure got ripped off considering the millions they spent on developing their logo and positiong their brand.
If you sincerely think IBM's logo conveys 'reliability' all by itself then we are just going to have to leave it at that.
Cheers and thanks for your thoughts on the subject
DMT
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tim
Mar 22, 2005, 8:19 PM
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In reply to: Ok, in keeping with the idea of finding an acutall solution to this problem. Here's another thoght. http://www.needlesports.com/...Hrkk__Hrkk__138.html Has anyone here heard of a woman named Tami Knight? She's a cartoonist who makes a living making fun of people like us. She's written illustrations for John Long's books, as well as hundreds of cartoons that have been published in Rock and Ice and Climbing Magazine. Her images are widely recognized withing the climbing world, and anything that Tami could come up with I'd gladly be behind. Perhaps our logo could be an illustration of one of her climbing rats pointing and grimacing while saying "Logo, we don't need no stinken' logo!" At the very least it would show that we have a sense of humour.
Genius! My only concern is whether we can make it worth her while. Tami is one of the few people who could really kick ass with this in terms of concept and execution.
I'll put out some feelers and see what happens.
Thanks! (smacks head -- why didn't I think of this?!?)
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zozo
Mar 22, 2005, 8:26 PM
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In reply to: If you sincerely think IBM's logo conveys 'reliability' all by itself then we are just going to have to leave it at that. Cheers and thanks for your thoughts on the subject DMT
I guess I'll say it again, but this is the last time Dingus.....
In reply to: It's in the brand, the graphic doesnt matter squat. |
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fitzontherocks
Mar 22, 2005, 8:49 PM
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Well said, pmyche. And Slave, I would vote against having a cartoon or illustration as a logo, because a cartoon or illustration is, well, a cartoon or illustration. A logo is a symbol. And Dingus, are you just bored today? "The images of which have nothing to do with the brand." ??? The brand is EXACTLY that... images... whether expressed through line, shape, shading, typography, or pure-dee emotion. And yes, they're communicated through millions of executions (ads, spots, labels, editorial, PR, colors, material choice, product offerings, repetition, etc). I've only been a member of RC for a couple of years, but one poster indicated there have been FOUR logos??? That's part of the problem (again, if there even is a problem). Sheesh, maybe I'm bored today.
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tim
Mar 22, 2005, 10:00 PM
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In reply to: one poster indicated there have been FOUR logos???
Yup. The problem is simple -- none of them represented the site in exactly the way we wanted. The end result is (supposed to be) an image that represents what the site is/does/etc.
In reply to: That's part of the problem (again, if there even is a problem). Sheesh, maybe I'm bored today.
The substantive problems have more to do with usability and unimplemented functionality than a logo. The people who came out in droves to engage in sport flaming when the logo was test-deployed get as much respect as they give. Meanwhile, the exercise has generated a lot of good ideas and much useful feedback from those who weren't simply trolls... all of which will be put to use.
I don't see this as a problem :-)
Incidentally, if there's any voting at all to be done, it will be by the staff and perhaps the Partners of the site. Those who have the most at stake get the most say, although everyone is free to opine however they like.
I'm not in favor of design by committee. It typically produces a lowest-common-denominator effect, eg. the color beige.
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fitzontherocks
Mar 22, 2005, 10:16 PM
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Tim, you're dead on. I make ads for a living, and in the words of Tim McElligott of Fallon McElligott, "having a committee approve a big idea is like sentencing a person to be bitten to death by ducks." But I'll offer my professional assistance if you ever need it. Just drop me a pm. Cheers.
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dingus
Mar 22, 2005, 10:21 PM
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In reply to: And Dingus, are you just bored today? "The images of which have nothing to do with the brand." ??? The brand is EXACTLY that... images...
Maybe if you had included the part where jt512 said the subjects didn't know the brand you might have a better foundation upon which to build your ridicule. Snipping me like that is low brow.
DMT
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jt512
Mar 22, 2005, 10:29 PM
Post #41 of 76
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In reply to: In reply to: Ok, in keeping with the idea of finding an acutall solution to this problem. Here's another thoght. http://www.needlesports.com/...Hrkk__Hrkk__138.html Has anyone here heard of a woman named Tami Knight? She's a cartoonist who makes a living making fun of people like us. She's written illustrations for John Long's books, as well as hundreds of cartoons that have been published in Rock and Ice and Climbing Magazine. Her images are widely recognized withing the climbing world, and anything that Tami could come up with I'd gladly be behind. Perhaps our logo could be an illustration of one of her climbing rats pointing and grimacing while saying "Logo, we don't need no stinken' logo!" At the very least it would show that we have a sense of humour. Genius! My only concern is whether we can make it worth her while. Tami is one of the few people who could really kick ass with this in terms of concept and execution. I'll put out some feelers and see what happens. Thanks! (smacks head -- why didn't I think of this?!?)
From what I've gathered about Tammi's sense of humor, she' might just go along with my suggestion:
n :shock: b.com
-Jay
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jt512
Mar 22, 2005, 10:40 PM
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In reply to: Meanwhile, the exercise has generated a lot of good ideas and much useful feedback from those who weren't simply trolls... all of which will be put to use.
Translation: The much-lauded and long-awaited rollout of the redesign was an abyssmal failure. Practically every element -- color scheme, brand positioning, layout, and functionality -- were rejected outright by users.
So now we're calling it a test.
-Jay
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cragcrawler
Mar 22, 2005, 10:46 PM
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In reply to: Sounds good except for the having to print out posters and do work part. I honestly don't care that much about how the logo looks, and I have a feeling most other users don't care too much either.
I beg to differ with college kid. I think it is a great idea. And I think alot of users would care, and would love to participate. Maybe if college kid did some work he would get good grades in college :D (No offense college kid just goofen with ya)
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fitzontherocks
Mar 22, 2005, 10:54 PM
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Dingus, sorry if you thought I was "snipping" at you. I'm not. I agree completely with jt's comment, "in blind comparisons (blind meaning the brand is unknown) of new logos that I have conducted, there is no question that different logos evoke different images." Graphic images DO evoke different perceptions. I didn't know much about fine art, but when I saw Picasso's "Guernica," I was moved and scared and felt all down and stuff. The "bored" comment was simply because you seem to have an acute and emotional interest in this subject and it surprised me. When all's said and done, it's just a logo. But it does mean something. Can we still be friends?
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tim
Mar 22, 2005, 10:59 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Meanwhile, the exercise has generated a lot of good ideas and much useful feedback from those who weren't simply trolls... all of which will be put to use. Translation: The much-lauded and long-awaited rollout of the redesign was an abyssmal failure. Practically every element -- color scheme, brand positioning, layout, and functionality -- were rejected outright by users.
Which is to say, no different than any other change in the history of the site. People here are attached firmly to the status quo, and the status quo (in this case) sucks.
The feedback that was genuine will be put to use to come up with a stronger offering. The rest will be discarded.
No one who's afraid to take a fall now and then is ever likely to lead at their limits. No one who is afraid to fail now and then is going to produce much more than simpering groupthink.
The astounding thing to me is that people react as if we've printed and paid for a run of 50,000 or 100,000 brochures and mailed them out. We didn't. It cost us nothing to deploy it. It cost us nothing to roll it back. It will cost us nothing (or very close to it) to improve and re-deploy the designs until we get it right.
The lack of improvements to the existing design over the past 3 years is the only abysmal failure I see here. The fear of being embarassed and the unwillingness to take chances, for a site dedicated to a sport that revolves around taking chances, is repulsive.
The current design is a piece of shit. Failure to replace it with something better is the only thing that I have any fear of.
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tim
Mar 22, 2005, 11:02 PM
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In reply to: From what I've gathered about Tammi's sense of humor, she' might just go along with my suggestion: n :shock: b.com
Peoples' sense of humor tends to change a bit when they're getting paid to do something other than editorialize. Not everyone views Making a Statement (tm) as their highest calling.
Regardless, I'd be interested to see what emerges. If the shoe fits...
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fitzontherocks
Mar 22, 2005, 11:05 PM
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NO, TIM! Please, Dear God, don't use a cartoon or illustration as a logo. I beg of you, man, in the name of all that is good and decent.
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tim
Mar 22, 2005, 11:08 PM
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In reply to: NO, TIM! Please, Dear God, don't use a cartoon or illustration as a logo. I beg of you, man, in the name of all that is good and decent.
Why not? If it works. Mammut, Trango, Prana, and Metolius seem to be getting away with it just fine.
I'm so sick of the tarted-up-text treatment I can't even articulate it.
At one point I looked into licensing the Gumby image from Heat Marketing. Only problem is, it was too pricey...
http://www.heatlicensing.com/...s/GUMBY_FAN_CLUB.jpg
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jt512
Mar 22, 2005, 11:10 PM
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In reply to: No one who's afraid to take a fall now and then is ever likely to lead at their limits. No one who is afraid to fail now and then is going to produce much more than simpering groupthink.
Agreed. There's no embarrassment in trying something that doesn't work. So why call it marketing research after it has failed?
Speaking of marketing research, it seems that one major mistake that was made was that none was done before the rollout. Marketing research is not 'design by committee'; it's the systematic gathering of feedback from the intended target audiance. A little beta testing would have revealed all the problems that the full-scale rollout did, and would have avoided the management of this site from appearing to be in over their heads.
-Jay
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tim
Mar 22, 2005, 11:14 PM
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In reply to: Agreed. There's no embarrassment in trying something that doesn't work. So why call it marketing research after it has failed?
Because, fundamentally, the deployment was for the sake of showing it to people at RRR (including advertisers and gear manufacturers) and soliciting their reactions. I was anticipating that we'd need to make improvements to the design; I didn't necessarily anticipate the sheer number of desirable changes!
In reply to: Speaking of marketing research, it seems that one major mistake that was made was that none was done before the rollout. Marketing research is not 'design by committee'; it's the systematic gathering of feedback from the intended target audiance.
To some extent, both the month-long survey we conducted in November, and the deployment at RRR, were meant to do just that. In the Partners' forum, it was pointed out that we ought to have involved them a bit more, so we'll see about doing an eBay-style "optional rollout" for the next round of changes. That should be a bit more systematic and provide a more gradual transition to an improved design than our initial stab!
In reply to: A little beta testing would have revealed all the problems that the full-scale rollout did, and would have avoided the management of this site from appearing to be in over their heads.
We're always in over our heads. That's the fun part ;-)
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