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tradman
May 17, 2005, 11:32 AM
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I don't get it.
If this is genuinely dangerous, then who on earth would put their child in that position?
If it isn't dangerous, then how are the supposed spiritual benefits gained?
It strikes me that there is little middle ground between the two aspects that "storm" is claiming for this experience. It either has all the spiritual content of putting on a pair of trousers or it's an idiotic and reckless endangerment of a minor.
As to which it is, let me ask you as climbers: if someone had been climbing for 25 years, would they use the common slang terminology of climbing such as, "free soloing", "mountaineering" or "trad climbing" and use common grading terms for context, or would they use a load of made-up technical terms which "sound right" but have no meaning?
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vanclimber
May 17, 2005, 1:18 PM
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Hey Storm, why not put it all on the line by biting into a thick top choice Canadian Steak?
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j_ung
May 17, 2005, 1:55 PM
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In reply to: To the Rockclimbing Forum From Storm (Raven's Dad) I have been doing this type of work for over thirty years. And I have been hearing the same thing from the rock climbing community not the whole community just parts of it. I have worked with hundreds of kids and never had one person fall. This is not something that I approach lightly and I totally understand your feelings. Even though I don't agree with them. My oldest son (Snow)is now twenty nine and he start climbing when he was two years old. He has never fallen and through my work with him other parents wanted me to work with their children too. This led to a full time adventure school that lasted for over five years from 1980 to 1985. In the Ojai Area. We did heavy weather sailing on a forty foot boat, we did hang gliding and we did scuba diving, as well as mountain climbing. Every week for five years we did one of the above activities with never an injury. I have been written up in newspapers and had children referred to me by the probation department. I have worked closely with private schools and I also worked with gang kids and other kids at risk. Had huge sucesses with getting them off of drugs and turning young lives around. One of the main problems is that our kids never have to put anything on the line so they never get a real sense of who they are or who their parents are for that matter because they never see them in action. You are so quick to point your finger and say that this is too dangerous, but you have no idea how much training and study went into the series of climbs that we did. It took Jinjee 10 years to reach a point where she could flow up a 7 story face. Raven climbed it first with ropes and then she climbed it without ropes but with me right behind her and her last climb will be solo. It may not happen until she is in her twenties it is totally up to her. When I show her the posts on this site and asked her if at any time she was scared her answer was "Not really." One solo climb (Gilbraltar Rock in Santa Barbara) that I did with my son at the age of 17 he had to back off of and then last week he went back and finished it at the age of twenty nine. It was huge for him to come back after being spooked for 11 years. I have climbed a 20 story face three times without ropes (Sepse Gorge Ending Crack) and have climbed Topa Topa (six thousand feet) five times without ropes. Most of it was rotten rock. It wasn't a commercial event this is what we do all of the time. I was just sharing one of the things that I think make us different as a family. We live and climb in the Ojai area and most of the rock in the back country is rotten and after a while you learn to develop a feeling for which rocks are sound. I wish that there was some way that I could share how bonded we are as a family. All five of my children where born at home with just Jinjee and myself. I got a lot of heat for that also. All of my kids started climbing small rocks at around the age of two. And have a skill level that is way beyond what anyone would believe who didn't actually know them. We are not weekend warriors who go to the mountain on the weekend once a month. We live in the mountains and climb just about eveyday. The climbs are all round our house this is what we do. The bottom line to all of this is that they are at much more of a risk driving down off of the mountain to town in a box that is made of metal and glass filled with gasoline traveling at 70 miles a hour than they are doing these climbs that they have been doing all of their lives. So I get the feeling that what are you really trying to say is. That I shouldn't take my kids sailing because the boat might sink. I should not let them climb trees because the branch might break, I shouldn't let them ride a bike but it is ok if I drive around with them in a car because that does not offend anyone and everybody does it, even though thousands of kids die every year. I disagree with the position that you have taken. I think that we should teach our kids to look life right in the eye without flinching. All the best storm
I think you're a kook.
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landgolier
May 17, 2005, 2:03 PM
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Team,
Let this one go. I've dealt with a lot of people like this over the years, contrarianism is their motivation and we're just helping to get them off. If a vegan diet was the norm, they'd be advocating cow's blood as the one true healthy way of eating and living. Let them do what they want, they're not harming you, and even if one of them does get hurt and bring negative publicity on the sport, we've got the support in place to counter it and show the public that 99% of us don't do things that way. This doesn't need to turn into an ethics debate, or an attempt at a public shaming, or another thread on free soloing, or anything at all. Please, let's just end this, and let these people go their way and us ours.
-T
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socalclimber
May 17, 2005, 2:06 PM
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In reply to: As to which it is, let me ask you as climbers: if someone had been climbing for 25 years, would they use the common slang terminology of climbing such as, "free soloing", "mountaineering" or "trad climbing" and use common grading terms for context, or would they use a load of made-up technical terms which "sound right" but have no meaning?
I must confess that this was one of the very first things that got my attention. While I appreciate the need to push kids, this is just irresponsible in my opinion. I don't think anyone is questioning how bonded he and his family are, but that he is putting young children in harms way.
Let's also not ignore the fact he instructed his wife to climb close behind the daughter in case she slips or falls. Really bad advice.
Maybe he hasn't had an accident yet, but it will only take one, and the shit is gonna hit the fan, big time.
Really scary.
Robert
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edge
May 17, 2005, 2:22 PM
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Storm, you need only click on my profile to see where I stand on kids and climbing.
I think, personally, that you know nothing about either.
Irresponsible, irreplaceable, illegitimate father status. Word.
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t-dog
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May 17, 2005, 2:34 PM
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heh, the climbing looks about as bad as the downclimb off of Taquitz 8^)
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mburke225
May 17, 2005, 2:44 PM
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I can't believe no one else has commented on this. Look at the first photo. Now look at the footwear on the mother. Now look at her foot positioning on the rock. If this really were a fifth class route, she would be having serious problems. Add to this mix a seeming lack of any knowledge of technique or climbing terms, it's pretty safe to say this is a fourth class route.
Now the question: Should a 11 year old be on a 4th class route? Not having any kids I would guess it would depend on the kids background. But I will say I've watched plenty of parents relax as there kids climb trees. Seems about as safe to me. I have also watched as non- climbing parents follow there young children up a 4th class gully at a local climbing spot. Never seemed wrong to me.
The fact that this guy is coming to the table and spraying about how risky the activities that his children engage in are makes him an idiot. But if the activities aren't truely risky then he's just somebody screaming in the wind.
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rgold
May 17, 2005, 2:50 PM
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An annotated reading of the site:
In reply to: Storm's philosophy is that laying your life on the line makes you a better person.
Apparently, laying other people's life on the line makes you a better person too.
In reply to: And maybe if I climbed it would help with the respect issue that is coming up with my 11 going on 30 year old daughter. Mostly I'm tired of being looked at as the "wuss" in the family.
Laying your life on the line as a way to solve everyday relationship and poor self-image problems. This has the added benefit that if you or your disprespectful daughter die, the problems are also solved.
On the other hand, if one or both of you end up merely paraplegic, your relationship and self-image problems are just beginning.
In reply to: As we were hiking to the mountain Storm decided that the scene would be better as a mother-daughter climb. "No way" I said as usual. But Storm said "Its not about today being a good day to live. Its about today being a good day to die. Its about today being a good day to do something really big, to have an adventure, to throw your useless life away". It took a good deal more banter from Raven and Storm and I thought OK, I'll do it.
A carefully considered decision arrived at in a supportive and low-pressure environment.
In reply to: And stay close behind Raven because if she falls on you from too far above you she'll knock you off the mountain
This from the guy who says there's no possibility of the kid falling. And his wife, who has never done this before and is stuggling at the edge of self-control, is supposed to suddenly achieve a level of competence and superhuman adherence that will enable her to not only hang on but also catch a falling child. Boy is she ever in line for better personhood.
In reply to: She has climbed this once before with ropes. Today we are climbing freestyle (no ropes). She's pretending to be really scared.
The girl, plastered flat against low-angle rock stretching high for the biggest hold, is doing a masterful job of faking fear by violating every principle of safe and competent movement. And with that compromised body position on questionable rock, cleverly adopted to convey the fake fear, comes a a greatly increased liklihood of falling. Nice trick, kid.
In reply to: Storm says "don't let her get too far ahead."
Now why would he be saying that? She isn't going to fall because she's had so much practice in the back yard, and she isn't really afraid either, right?
In reply to: When we got to the top I was just happy to be alive!
No kidding.
In reply to: I had to use "magic" (our own ability beyond that which we usually tap) to get up that mountain. And now I had access to that magic in everyday life to do things a little better and a little easier.
Forget being a better person. Lay your life on the line to make your day go just a bit smoother. And ps: replace "magic" with "luck" and you'll be a lot closer to reality.
-------------
Climbers are in a tricky position criticizing other risk-takers. A lot of climbers take their kids climbing and so expose them to risks too, because climbing cannot be made completely safe. The difference between such parental activities and Storm's is one of risk intensity, but all such parents find it possible to justify the risks they choose to expose their children to.
From my perspective, Storm is somehow able to brow-beat his submissive family into taking extreme risks for absurdly intangible personal gains. But there's no reasoning with him, he is clearly in posession of revealed truth.
Perhaps we should turn communal outrage into quiet introspection and ask whether, when, and how many times we have pushed a loved one beyond their personal tolerance for risk, ask whether we have put a child, one completely unable to understand the nature or quality of the dangers involved, in harms way because the activity is one that gratifies us.
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tradman
May 17, 2005, 3:09 PM
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Thanks rgold, that's a thoughtful breakdown.
I'd only add how sad I think it is that the activity we here get such and incredible range of rushes, emotions, highs and lows from can be twisted so far beyond recognition that it the activity itself becomes an act of abuse and the reward becomes a pseudo-spiritual mumbo-jumbo hocus-pocus a million miles from the satisfaction we all know can come from it.
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photon
May 17, 2005, 3:10 PM
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sounds like a kook to me but you know what they are barely even 4th classing in those photos
LIVE & LET LIVE
worry about yourselves you co-dependent freaks
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graniteboy
May 17, 2005, 3:13 PM
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I wrote these guys a scolding email, too.
In 30 years of climbing and guiding and freesoloing, I've seen a lot of stupid and dangerous stuff that people have exposed their kids or unwitting spouse to. But this one ranks right up there with the worst of them.
Using a kid freesoloing choss to promote the sale of your damned book. The words "child exploitation" come to mind.
Anyone called Child protective services yet?
If not, I'd be happy to. If the kid loves climbing, which she probably does, she needs to grow up in a family where "daddy" isn't endangering her by using her as an advertisement.
Freesoloing is for grownups.
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reno
May 17, 2005, 3:14 PM
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In reply to: Hey Storm, why not put it all on the line by biting into a thick top choice Canadian Steak?
Best reply yet.
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organic
May 17, 2005, 3:18 PM
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In reply to: sounds like a kook to me but you know what they are barely even 4th classing in those photos LIVE & LET LIVE worry about yourselves you co-dependent freaks
Live and Let live? they might not live that is the point. and uh what does this have to do with codependency? And I am sure you would let your 10 year old kid 4th class 70 feet?
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corpse
May 17, 2005, 3:18 PM
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This all sounds like self promotion. Less face it, lots of climbers are veg heads or vegans, and have plenty of friends that are too :)
I will be the first to say - maybe nebo is actually storm, or a friend, and joined to post this outrage to get further publicity for their "way", to support "their cause".. And the more people get outraged, the more they pass it around, the more exposure they get. Remember bonzai kittens? With a little photo altercation and good wording, people went insane and called in the feds, and it was a big hoax.
I'm not saying this is necessarily a "hoax", but my gut is this post is all carefully crafted to generate hits and publicity.. Maybe it will get huge and make it's way in a few local papers, or by some stretch "Peculiar News" as the "extreme mountain family".
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nebo
May 17, 2005, 3:26 PM
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Hi, interesting speculation that maybe I'm actually Storm. I would not have predicted that. I'm not.
Here's the letter I wrote to Storm.
Storm and Jinjee:
I just looked at the photos of Raven and Jinjee free-soloing.
I have climbed for 34 years. I taught climbing and guided for about a dozen of those. When I was in my prime I occasionally indulged in some free soloing. So I know what I'm looking at in these photos. Poor-quality rock, about 5.5 or 5.6 difficulty. About 5 times higher than is needed for a fatal fall.
Jinjee is apparently comforted that Storm has extensively trained Raven, and that Raven has previously climbed the route (perhaps many times) roped. Jinjee may not be familiar with the extensive literature on climbing accidents. If she was she would realize that even the best-trained, most experienced climbers can (and sometimes do) die, frequently on easier, oft-repeated routes that are well below their abilities. I remember one of my early lessons, as a young climber in Yosemite Valley in the 70s. One of the best woman climbers in the world had just finished Middle Cathedral North Buttress, and was soloing the easy (4th or low 5th) slabs at the top. Nobody knows why, but she fell. She's been permanently dead since then.
All it takes is one moment of loss of concentration, one loose hold, one bird suddenly exploding out of a crack into your face, one random bit of rockfall...you get the idea.
Jinjee, as a mother, something inside you must be screaming, "this is wrong." Listen that voice. Forget about the good day to die--that's a nice quote from a cool movie. Today is a good day to live, and to protect the precious lives of your children.
Storm, you are trying to be responsible by transcending the limitation of our culture's approach to parenting/husbanding and teaching and how we live. Great. But in this instance, you step far over the line. This event reveals a deep flaw in your learning. It is time for some serious self-examination. Hang up your guru robes for a few years and find a good teacher.
Both of you, take a moment and do a little visualization: You are in your beautiful home, and you turn the corner into the room where you expect to see the brilliant smile of your daughter, as you have a thousand times before. But today there is no smile. For one slip permanently took her from your lives. What would you have done differently?
Jinjee, the climb was a significant accomplishment for you and I'm glad you survived it. Nevertheless, recognize that it was a crap shoot, a risk beyond reason, and that for the sake of your children who need you, it should not be repeated. All the great vegan raw eating health regimen in the world is of no use to you or your children if either or you they are dead.
May Raven thrive and become the next Lynn Hill. May you learn to appropriately balance your neo-shamanism and spiritual practice with the demands of parenting in the here-and-now, real world, people-really-die-when-they-fall-even-though-they-didn't-plan-to-fall planet on which we live.
M. Amos Clifford
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storm
May 17, 2005, 3:37 PM
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Hey this is Storm again
I have taken the time to read all of the different post and I'm really amazed at the level of response. I'm not part of the Rockclimbing community and I had no idea it was so big. Everybody for the most part seems so self righteous in their expert opinions. And to tell the truth if anyone of you came to my door and said I a climbing expert and I don't use ropes and I want to take your kids climbing I would turn you down using the same view points expressed on this forum.
I'm a film maker now I use to teach rock climbing in the back country of Ojai. I have a lot of pictures of climbs that we use to do and I also have some footage from the last five years of climbs that I have done with people.
Most of the climbs that I do with people are what I call mental climbs. What I mean by that is, the climb itself is really not very hard so the battle takes place in the mind. That is the climb that you see Raven and her mother doing. One of the problems that I had as a film maker is getting the angle right so as to create a since of height and drama. This film is not meant to be a documentary or a how to on rock climbing. And on more than one occasion I have told people not to try this without professional help, and I have steered them to rock climbing schools.
Most of the really big climbs that we did we did not have cameras. And a lot of the time when we did we would be really high up, but when we looked at the footage it would look like we were just 10 feet off the ground.
I don't teach rock climbing any more after five years I totally burnt out. The only thing that I do now is work with my kids in mental type of climbing where the risks are very low. I feel that it takes just as much courage to climb a mental rock as it does to solo a big face.
I'm fifty six years old and I have totally retired from solo climbing big faces. My son is 29 years old and he has totally retired from climbing big faces he announced his retirement two weeks ago after doing a climb that had spooked him for eleven years. I can't even tell you how glad I was to hear that he had retired.
Even though the film I'm making has rock climbing in it. It is not a film about rock climbing it is a film about people.
In closing I would like to say that as of this writing one out of three of our kids is obese. And one thousand people a day die in America from obesity related diseases. This is totally preventive, and this is where your focus and anger should be. It is where mine is. That is what my site is really all about.
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dynosore
May 17, 2005, 3:40 PM
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So he advocates free soloing and vegan diet. "You won't live long, but you could have"
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jt512
May 17, 2005, 3:47 PM
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In reply to: Team, Let this one go. I've dealt with a lot of people like this over the years, contrarianism is their motivation and we're just helping to get them off. If a vegan diet was the norm, they'd be advocating cow's blood as the one true healthy way of eating and living. Let them do what they want, they're not harming you, and even if one of them does get hurt and bring negative publicity on the sport, we've got the support in place to counter it and show the public that 99% of us don't do things that way. This doesn't need to turn into an ethics debate, or an attempt at a public shaming, or another thread on free soloing, or anything at all. Please, let's just end this, and let these people go their way and us ours. -T
Either that, or take effective action, such as reporting them to Child Protective Services. This thread is not going to change anything.
-Jay
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nebo
May 17, 2005, 3:54 PM
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One other bit in response to the publicity stunt notion; at first I was so enraged that I did consider calling local TV stations in Bakersfield and Ventura County. I imagine they might have jumped on it. But I restrained myself precisely because I didn't want to stir up a media storm--as the PR people say, any publicity is good publicity. I sincerely do NOT want that for this guy. He'd probably turn it into a million bucks.
I have, however, called Ventura County CPS (in my past I have been a mandated reporter; I'm not now, but some sense of responsibility lingers). I'm not confident that they will respond--you speak with a low-level functionary who, in a bored voice, says she will pass the information along to her supervisor. Multiple calls might be best. Google Ventura County Health and Human Services Agency.
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jpdreamer
May 17, 2005, 3:58 PM
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I've hiked on trails that wereof a similar danger, where if you tripped and fell off the trail you were in big trouble and could quite possibly die. Even one wrong step at the wrong moment, and bam it would be all over, but I hardly ever see people get up in arms about letting a ten year old do such a thing, even alone.
I mean it is just a sidewalk.
As a suburbanite, I feel those who subject their children to such incredible dangers as riding the subway should have their children taken away by CPS. It's reckless endangerment, there are no safety rails to prevent people from falling in front of a moving train, even one small misstep and the child could fall and LOSE THEIR LIFE!!!!
That said I would never push someone to do something with that level of risk.
Edited to add:
For a more direct comparison, rappelling (Yeah I can't spell) is considerably more dangerous than scrambling up 3rd and 4th class terrain. Would you be as up in arms if he was allowing his kid to rappell without a backup, considering that she was proficient with the skill and did use a backup while she was learning?
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shakylegs
May 17, 2005, 3:59 PM
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In reply to: Either that, or take effective action, such as reporting them to Child Protective Services. This thread is not going to change anything. -Jay
If only for the use of names such as Snow, Storm, Raven, etc.
It's like American Gladiators, or the Phoenix family.
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graniteboy
May 17, 2005, 4:34 PM
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I just got an email reply from "Storm" or whatever his real name is....
He bragged about how he is a very talented climber because he soloed some silly a$$ed 5.7 in sespe gorge, and that makes him a good enough climber to judge when his daughter is ready to freesolo chossy rock. Sheesh....
Where I come from (Truckee) bragging about 5.7 freesolos will get you laughed at and patted on the head like a puppy....I once had a DOG who freesoloed a couple 5.7 moves from time to time. And I don't think Ol' Rex was a good enough climber to be making decisions on when a kiddie should be soloing.
This man "storm" is an idiot, and needs a wake up call from the D.A. Maybe a little jail time will wake him up.
I emailed child protective services. You should do the same.
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photon
May 17, 2005, 4:36 PM
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organic said,
"Live and Let live? they might not live that is the point. and uh what does this have to do with codependency? And I am sure you would let your 10 year old kid 4th class 70 feet?"
you don't know what co-dependency is obviously, perhaps look it up next time before you spray. One of the main symptoms is an exagerated sense of responsibility of others. Does that make sense now? Probably not. You might not live beyond today either but you know what that isn't my problem is it? Anyway, yes i would/have let my 10 year old 4th class 70 feet and it's none of your damn business either so piss off.
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nebo
May 17, 2005, 4:44 PM
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My reply to Storm, in response to his posting on this forum:
=========
Hi Storm, thanks for replying.
Like you, I lead numerous "expeditions" of youth-at-risk on wilderness adventures, usually 21-day trips in the Sierra Nevada. They were referred by probation departments from throughout Southern California; many were from Ventura and Santa Barbara counties. I worked at first for a program called "Sea and Summit", which had a sailing component. It was based in Santa Barbara. Many years ago it morphed into a different type of program, so if it still exists under that name its not the same program.
I started as a student there. I was incarcerated and when I was released from Los Prietos Boys Camp I went directly on one of the expeditions. It was a powerful, life-changing event for me. So I know full well the benefits of adventure education.
Later I became an Assistant Climbing Instructor, under the tutelage of the great Paul Corwin. He was a demanding teacher who knew how to stretch me beyond my limits. I remember climbing Chimney Rock Spire with him; this was in 1972 and neither of us knew if it had ever been climbed. He lead the first pitch of A2 nailing (yes, we used pitons back then). When I joined him at the stance he said, "Your turn now..." and cajoled me into my first lead, what turned out to be about a 5.7 pitch into totally unknown territory. It was quite an accomplishment for me, and for him as a teacher.
We were roped up, and he had carefully taught me how to place protection and build anchors. He had not just prepared me, but also made sure that what we were doing was fundamentally sound.
As time went by I became a climbing instructor, and then the program director. I was frequently hired by other adventure education programs to train their staff and to lead trips of the highest-risk kids. I guess I did this for about 20 years off and on, and I came to believe that I was indeed a great expert on working in the wilderness with youth at risk. I came to believe my own publicity. Until about 1994 when a group of gangsters from San Francisco totally overwhelmed me and my co-workers on a trip in N. Yosemite park. My illusions about my abilities crumbled. After that I felt that it was time to let the next generation take over, and I haven't guided since then. But the event did confront me with plenty of material for my ongoing inner work.
During my years of guiding I saw several significant injuries to both staff and students; fortunately no fatalaties or permanently disabling injuries. I honed my own emergency medical skills, working during the off-season as an EMT. As an EMT responding to accident scenes the strongest lesson I learned was that people don't plan for the accidents that end their lives or their health. They are just tooling along, having a normal day with all their normal hopes and fears and dreams, and it comes out of the blue.
Meanwhile, I had several close calls while climbing; got avalanched on while leading an ice route in Tokopah; on another routed I somehow forgot to clip to my anchors after leading a pitch, and didn't notice until I had held my second in a fall. And my very experienced friends were all accumulating similar stories. The best climber I have partnered with, Bruce Hendricks, had a near-miss that still amazes me. He was teaching a rapelling class, tripped and fell backwards over the edge while unanchored. His co-instructor (who was anchored) lunged forward and grabbed a pinch of skin on Bruce's forearm. That's what saved him.
They weren't planning on that.
The fact that you haven't had any injuries among your students is, in a way, unfortunate; while skillful instruction and supervision has no doubt played a role, so has luck, and you've been misled by that. Luck is a fickle thing to depend upon.
I totally support your right to free solo and I applaud your work with youth at risk and the accomplishments you have had. I particularly admire that you have carved out for yourself a life that is authentic, a path with a heart.
Well done.
That said, I will reiterate again my prior statements:
You are being stunningly irresponsible to encourage a child of Raven's age, and an inexperienced adult, to free solo. I could not find it in myself to stand by and watch without attempting some kind of intervention. That's why I posted to the climbing community, and it's why I have called Ventura County CPS and reported this as a case of probable child endangerment.
I suspect that you have come to believe your own publicity, much as I did before my last trip into the wilderness with the San Francisco gangsters. If you listen to the community now, perhaps you will learn something that will be useful to you. As a spiritually-inclined person, you must know that on the path of learning we are confronted again and again with our own arrogance, our own delusions. And the farther along the path we get, the harder the challenges can become, the more humility is required to master them.
Again, I encourage you to reflect carefully on your actions as a parent and a spouse.
Amos Clifford
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