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curt


Aug 2, 2005, 5:44 PM
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If our economy is really in such great shape right now, why is it increasingly true that the average American worker can no longer afford an average house in the area where they live and work? What do you think this says about our economy? Are you OK with this trend?

I think it's an example of how a free market economy works.... people have an item, others want it, the supply and demand concept takes hold, and prices increase.

I think that a free market economy is vastly superior to a number of other economic market concepts.

I think that housing in Phoenix is outrageous and I wish I had the money to buy one, but it's also a classic example of this concept writ large... I know a guy who won the lottery for a new housing subdivision, and the first guy to get passed up offered my buddy $75K to NOT close on his house. That's right... 75 grand to NOT buy a house.

I think I prefer this concept of a free market economy over, say, the government buying all the houses and dolling them out to everyone equally. Socialism has been tried, and it didn't work.

What do YOU think, Curt?

Well, I agree with you that the government has no role to play in this aspect of the economy. I think it is too bad, however, that you can't buy a house here if you want to. My take on this trend is that speculators and investors are artificially inflating home prices in many markets (like the Phoenix area, for example) and that is pricing the average home buyer who is seeking a primary residence (like you) out of the market. I think this is a shame, but a natural consequence of low interest rates and lack of alternative investment options having decent performance.

Curt


bobd1953


Aug 2, 2005, 6:05 PM
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By not offering solution, he's saying not change is needed???

Nice bit of critical thinking, Bob.

No...what he is saying is he has no idea how to change the system. Only complain about it and accept the current way of doing things.

Just like you. :lol:


bobd1953


Aug 2, 2005, 6:18 PM
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Curt...the average cost of a home in Denver, CO is $254,000. The median household income is (per year) $46,558. Do the math.

I don't know people do it.


thorne
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Aug 2, 2005, 6:19 PM
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By not offering solution, he's saying not change is needed???

Nice bit of critical thinking, Bob.

No...what he is saying is he has no idea how to change the system. Only complain about it and accept the current way of doing things.

Just like you. :lol:

You do like to infer quite a bit more than a reasonable person, much of which is completely bogus.

Lacking a sufficient mental capacity to face people head on, some people resort to such petty tactics, to cover up these deficiencies. :wink:


thorne
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Aug 2, 2005, 6:30 PM
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Curt...the average cost of a home in Denver, CO is $254,000. The median household income is (per year) $46,558. Do the math.

$200,000 @ 5%, 30 yr. = 1073/mo or 12,876/yr.

What's your point?

In reply to:
I don't know people do it.

What?


Partner macherry


Aug 2, 2005, 6:37 PM
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Curt...the average cost of a home in Denver, CO is $254,000. The median household income is (per year) $46,558. Do the math.

I don't know people do it.

they're not. A lot of folks get suckered into getting mortgages where you pay off the "interest only", speculating that they will turn the house over and make a profit. If interest rates start to increase, or the market goes soft there's a lot of people SOL!!!!


bobd1953


Aug 2, 2005, 6:39 PM
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bobd1953 wrote:
Curt...the average cost of a home in Denver, CO is $254,000. The median household income is (per year) $46,558. Do the math.


$200,000 @ 5%, 30 yr. = 1073/mo or 12,876/yr.

What's your point?

Quote:
I don't know people do it.


What?

Should read: I don't know how people do it. Maybe even you could of figure that one out.

Most people don't put 25-per-cent down.

What is your point?


bobd1953


Aug 2, 2005, 6:41 PM
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Lacking a sufficient mental capacity to face people head on, some people resort to such petty tactics, to cover up these deficiencies.

Glad to see that you finally looked in mirror! :wink:


curt


Aug 2, 2005, 6:42 PM
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Curt...the average cost of a home in Denver, CO is $254,000. The median household income is (per year) $46,558. Do the math.

$200,000 @ 5%, 30 yr. = 1073/mo or 12,876/yr.

What's your point?

That's principle and interest, of course and doesn't include the tax and insurance (if any) in the payment. It also assumes that an average person making $46k per year, has a $54,000 down payment stashed away someplace. With national savings rates in this country at abysmally low levels, that's pretty unlikely--especially for a first time home buyer.

Curt


bobd1953


Aug 2, 2005, 6:46 PM
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$200,000 @ 5%, 30 yr. = 1073/mo or 12,876/yr.

What's your point?

Throw in the cost of healthcare, food, gas, childcare, clothes and so on...

I still don't know how some people do it!


thorne
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Aug 2, 2005, 6:47 PM
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bobd1953 wrote:
Curt...the average cost of a home in Denver, CO is $254,000. The median household income is (per year) $46,558. Do the math.


$200,000 @ 5%, 30 yr. = 1073/mo or 12,876/yr.

What's your point?

Quote:
I don't know people do it.


What?

Should read: I don't know how people do it. Maybe even you could of figure that one out.

Most people don't put 25-per-cent down.

What is your point?

Should read? So much of what you post makes no fucking sense. I didn't see why this was any different.

Where's you get 25 per-cent? More Bob finance?


thorne
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Aug 2, 2005, 6:52 PM
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Lacking a sufficient mental capacity to face people head on, some people resort to such petty tactics, to cover up these deficiencies.

Glad to see that you finally looked in mirror! :wink:

How third grade.... and par for you. :roll:

The amount of nonsense you post is mindboggling. Your ability to make innane leaps of logic and then act like you've proven your case is remarkable. If you ever stay on topic in one of these political threads it will truly be a miracle.


bobd1953


Aug 2, 2005, 6:53 PM
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Should read? So much of what you post makes no fucking sense. I didn't see why this was any different.

Where's you get 25 per-cent? More Bob finance?

You really are a dip-shit!

What is 25-per-cent of $200.000?


thorne
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Aug 2, 2005, 6:56 PM
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Curt...the average cost of a home in Denver, CO is $254,000. The median household income is (per year) $46,558. Do the math.

How about the median cost and the average income?


thorne
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Aug 2, 2005, 7:00 PM
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Should read? So much of what you post makes no f---ing sense. I didn't see why this was any different.

Where's you get 25 per-cent? More Bob finance?

You really are a dip-s---!

What is 25-per-cent of $200.000?

Oh, come now, Bob. I'm sure you're capable of such simple math.


bobd1953


Aug 2, 2005, 7:07 PM
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Should read? So much of what you post makes no fucking sense. I didn't see why this was any different.

Where's you get 25 per-cent? More Bob finance?

You posted $200.000! The buyer would have to put at least 25-per-cent down (50,000). Pretty simple!


thorne
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Aug 2, 2005, 7:13 PM
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Should read? So much of what you post makes no f---ing sense. I didn't see why this was any different.

Where's you get 25 per-cent? More Bob finance?

You posted $200.000! The buyer would have to put at least 25-per-cent down (50,000). Pretty simple!

What does this have to do with the average cost of $254,000 you cited?

$50,000 is less than 20% of $254,000. :roll:


thorne
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Aug 2, 2005, 7:22 PM
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Curt...the average cost of a home in Denver, CO is $254,000. The median household income is (per year) $46,558. Do the math.

How about the median cost and the average income?

At http://money.cnn.com/...snapshots/25119.html
I found the median income and median home cost. Seems to make sense to apply the same vehicle for finding a mid-point.

The median income was the same as Bob posted - $46,558.

The median cost of a home was $216,337, a whopping $37,000 less than Bob's average cost. :roll: No doubt $216,337 is high, but let's use the same standard when comparing these two issues.


Bob,

If you're don't know the difference between median prices and average prices, just let me know. I'll be happy to spell it out for you.


hugepedro


Aug 3, 2005, 8:25 PM
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So, Mr. "I find it incredible that ANYBODY needs this spelled out for them",

How do you see increasing costs as a way to cut costs?

Wow, I thought I made it simple enough for anybody to understand. Let me try again.

We know that our performance is so abysmal that there is plenty of money to be saved. If we know what some of the root causes of the high costs are, and we change the conditions that are causing the high costs, then we will no longer have those high costs.

Which is what I said when I wrote this:

In reply to:
We know the situation:

Our health care costs, in many cases, are twice as much as other countries that are delivering better care to their populations. So it’s easy to see that we have a tremendous margin of error within which to work.

We know the major, root causes of the situation:

1) Lack of coverage (and preventative care) for the entire population.
2) We deliver treatment to everyone, but in the most costly manner possible – often in emergency rooms, and after diseases have progressed to the point where more complex and costly treatments are required.
3) The supply/demand balance between medical facilities and staff (supply) and patients (demand) is a bit out of kilter.
4) Failure to use our market power to negotiate favorable pricing.

There are more problems, but if we just address the above issues we can have better care at lower cost – easily.

Our improvements will pay for themselves. And as Curt has said multiple times, we know this, beyond a shadow of a doubt, because we have multiple examples to look to for proof.


thorne
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Aug 3, 2005, 8:36 PM
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We know that our performance is so abysmal that there is plenty of money to be saved. If we know what some of the root causes of the high costs are, and we change the conditions that are causing the high costs, then we will no longer have those high costs.

Please see my signature. :wink:

The big question is what can be done to reduce these costs?

Your solution seems to be about increasing costs (through giving everyone coverage), promoting preventative care and negotiating prices.

Seems like a bandaid on a cut artery.


thorne
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Aug 3, 2005, 8:38 PM
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double post


hugepedro


Aug 3, 2005, 9:08 PM
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We know that our performance is so abysmal that there is plenty of money to be saved. If we know what some of the root causes of the high costs are, and we change the conditions that are causing the high costs, then we will no longer have those high costs.

Please see my signature. :wink:

The big question is what can be done to reduce these costs?

Your solution seems to be about increasing costs (through giving everyone coverage), promoting preventative care and negotiating prices.

Seems like a bandaid on a cut artery.

I told you how the costs will be reduced. I'll say it yet simpler:

IF WE REMOVE THE FACTORS THAT ARE CAUSING THE HIGH COSTS, THE COSTS WILL BE REDUCED!

Clear enough?

This ain't rocket science, ain't even Tiddly Winks - what part don't you understand?

As for your signature, I, and Curt, have already spelled out multiple times why this is a sure bet. If you find fault in our logic, point it out please.

Thank goodness the rest of us Americans are capable of making reasonable decisions, because by your standard, no corporation would ever innovate and our economy would be non-existent. In the business world we make FAR riskier decisions based on FAR less information, and we are usually right and successful. This one is a no brainer.


bobd1953


Aug 3, 2005, 10:00 PM
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No doubt $216,337 is high, but let's use the same standard when comparing these two issues

What year was that from? Ask your buddy Reno what you can buy for $216,000 in Denver. Look at average price per-s-foot.

The real numbers:
SINGLE FAMILY DETACHED HOMES...

18,841 FOR SALE: Average/Median LIST Price-$382,200/$260,000 ($25,000-$22,000,000)
24,012 SOLD: Average/Median SALES Price-$306,900/$245,000 ($19,900-$8,000,000)
Average Days on Market: 84; Average Price/SF: $170


CONDOS/TOWNHOMES...

7,962 FOR SALE: Average/Median LIST Price-$198,500/$155,000 ($29,500-$3,400,000)
6,634 SOLD: Average/Median SALES Price-$190,700/$159,900 ($25,911-$2,000,000)
Average Days on Market: 110; Average Price/SF: $160
(Source: Denver Metrolist, 08/01/2005)


thorne
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Aug 3, 2005, 10:06 PM
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Pedro,

You offer up simple general or theoretic solutions that may work. Given the political and legal climate in this country, I don't see how we get from where we are now to a system on par with the Brits.

Your common retort of "I've already proven this beyond a doubt" is really starting to wear pretty thin. It's a bullshit presumption.

You can attack my intellectual capabilities all you want. It's a bogus assertion. While a number of people on this site may disagree with my political and philosophical leanings, as well as my sometimes crass behavior, I don't think you'll find too many who support your implication about my intelligence.

Nice try. :wink:


bobd1953


Aug 3, 2005, 10:11 PM
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You offer up simple general or theoretic solutions that may work. Given the political and legal climate in this country, I don't see how we get from where we are now to a system on par with the Brits.

An you offer up simple general or theoretic non-solutions that may not work.

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