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micronut
Sep 22, 2002, 2:54 PM
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We ARE destroying the quality of life on this planet, no question. All one has to do is observe with one's own eyes and feelings. Smog, traffic, stress, noise, chemical contamination of water, soil, etc.......
Most energy we use and pollution we generate in western North American society comes from moving things around. That includes moving climbers and gear from home to the crags. I advocate living locally. Unfortunately, certain "powers" have "us" leveraged into certain non-sustainable positions that we don't nessesarily want to be in, though the uniform building code, the uniform commerical code, tax laws, etc...
Also, Is this car lifestyle really what we want? They take so much energy to operate, maintain, insure. The "embodied energy" represented in a car is mind blowing! It takes the rest of the world's labor to provide them for us. And we go through about 10 per lifetime!! Not to mention the fuel; "who cares if 100,000 arabs die as long as I can run down to the cornor store in my Suburban for some ice cream and a lighter." Sorry, this is starting to sound like a rant.
I've done a huge amout of research on "sustainability" issues, so if anybody is really interested, please contact me personally.
[ This Message was edited by: micronut on 2002-09-22 08:02 ]
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rockhugger
Oct 26, 2002, 3:59 AM
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Ive seen everyone blame cars ,industry ,smokers and alot of things on this global warming crap,it's a damn clever marketing ploy to make money ,dont you get it !!! some marketing dude says lets change the name of this refrigerant to r- 134a and say it has no cfc's and we'll charge a juicy price for it and the conversion kits.now you tell me ,how the hell does a gas that is heavier than air get into the upper atmosphere and destroy the ozone layer? hunh?? and how come no one takes volcanoes into account ,how many are active? did you know that they spit out huge volumes of chlorine and florine gas and co2. the so called earth first enviromentalists won't tell you that ,why ? because those assholes are getting kickbacks from all the so called "new" "ozone friendly " products. they are part of a scam ,conspiracy of a sorts to make you believe if you buy AQUANET with no cfc's you are decreasing the effect on the ozone layer.I SAY BULLSHIT!!! Volcanoes erupt every day and spew billions of tons of that s--- into the air all day and night long and has been doing so for however long this rock we are on has been in existence. I am now done ranting,
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spremegoat
Oct 26, 2002, 4:24 AM
Post #128 of 228
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you know, this post is what i love about america....and the reason the rest of the world gives us no respect. We as climbers especially should have a high regard for nature. Our actions as a people directly affects nature and hence our crags. nad it is precisely this type of crap from gw junior-fallatiating reactionaries that casues so many problems. Why don't we all go bust some unions in latin america with US trained assasins while failing to control our waste-output and risking warfare for personal familial vendettas! sounds like a plan to me.
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esoteric1
Oct 26, 2002, 6:18 AM
Post #129 of 228
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I only read the first page of this one so I dont know how the topic is turning out now, but I am disgusted and appauled at the lack of concern and ego related to the environment and the over inflated ego`s of you "americans" I live in the united states and I quite frankly am ashamed of it. not to say i dont enjoy the perks, but the perks come at another person being walked upon so i can have a cheap shirt. and there is nothing cool about the us being a superpower and killing for oil, drive your suv`s waste your oil spend your money on things that make your egos inflate, and blend in with a society that instead of coming to a peacefull means to an end, eggs on the bastardization of life in 3rd world countries. eggs on war so we can flex our muscles and say we are #1....#1 is just a # and your ego is tied to it. not mine
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rockhugger
Oct 26, 2002, 11:50 PM
Post #130 of 228
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If your so ashamed of America,you are free to move out and take all your bleeding heart liberal puke friends with you please.
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jono
Oct 27, 2002, 2:49 AM
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ive been reading this thread and i have to say its interesting. all ill say is i personaly believe that global warming is a natural cycle. im not going to take it any farther and im not going to argue with anybody, just an opinion.
jon
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wetrocks
Oct 27, 2002, 4:38 AM
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And rockhugger gots some fire in him! This tread has been a good battle of opinion, not insults, can ya ease up on slanging that crap there.
Global warming is occurring, even the U.S.A. gov't has accepted that fact, but we're unsure why it's happening. Is global warming caused by the Milankovitch Cycles, increased CO2, land cover changes, or is it a combination of numerous factors that are contributing to the increased rate of warming. I believe that global warming and cooling is a natural cycle, but humans have changed the inputs so the cycle is now unnaturally accelerating.
CO2 emissions are part of the reason. The warmest the globe has been with life on it had the highest concentrations of CO2 that the inhabited planet had ever witnessed. Most of the coal that's being mined today was created during this time. The plants sequestered this CO2 and today we're releasing it and helping to bring conditions back to what they were when these plants were thriving.
I've realized that I'm contributing to a major problem and have tried to adjust my lifestyle to minimize my impact. ..........and I've got to quit reading this thread......it's too easy to get on a rant. I just don't want to look back when I'm old and feel the guilt for being so naive. If you don't think we're screwing up this planet then you've been successfully brainwashed. You don't need to show me this or that fact to tell me that I miss many things that are now gone because of a lack of consideration and foresight.
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inf11b
Oct 30, 2002, 6:28 AM
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Since this is such an emotional subjuect, I'm sure that those who disagree with me won't even bother to read this, but what the hell
Well, with all the controversy on the subject it seems like this can be simplified to a few points:
1. The earth is getting warmer- This is not much, i think it's about 2degrees on average for the last 100 years. This also doesnt apply to all regions, for example greenland has gotten significantly colder since the 1500's so it's an average, but not true everywhere.
2.The earth does go through warming and cooling cycles through history. We had an ice age about 10,000 years ago and the temprature has fluctuated. Most people don't know that the world has "mini-ice ages" every couple hundred years. This is when the weather just turns incredebbly cold for about 10 years. Happened in the 15-1600's in Europe. They actually had people ice skating across the Danube.
3. Large amounts of hydrocarbons have been released into the atmosphere in the last several centuries and some evidence indicates that this is correlatory to a global rise in tempratures. Note that CO2 is not considered a major "greenhouse gas" while CO and methane are. Basically, now that cars have catalytic converters more of these so called greenhouse gasses are released in cow farts than car emissions.
--Whether global warming is caused by man or naturally, we'll never know. It's probably a combination of the two. It's important to remember that the planet's "natural state" is always changing and has never been constant even before humans. Heck, if you want to turn the world back to its natural state, we need to get all of that fossilized carbon out of the ground and back into the atmosphere where it originally was.
--As for stopping global warming, the question is whether or not stopping or reducing (slowing) the amount of burnt fossil fuels would actually change global warming. Best estimates are minimal impact.
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wildtrail
Oct 30, 2002, 6:49 AM
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Wow! Flames aside. I can't believe this is still going on. Wow!
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polarwid
Nov 18, 2002, 11:55 PM
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THIS THREAD may be relevant...
It is late November and we have MAYBE an inch of snow on the ground, and not much more in the mountains...
[ This Message was edited by: polarwid on 2002-11-18 15:56 ]
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biggernhell
Nov 25, 2002, 3:36 PM
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ITS ALIVE! LOOK IGOR ITS ALIVE! HAHAHAHAHA!
Seriously, WOW, this thread has really got some legs on it.
Thanks for the link Polarwid. Good info.
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foograbbinstone
Nov 29, 2002, 10:09 PM
Post #137 of 228
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I'm with Jody,
I don't think that anything we do can halt,lessen or even irritate global warming trends.They have been in play long before humans were even treading the earth!
I think the biggest contribution we as humans make towards global warming,comes from the spewing of all that hot gas from our mouths.So does humanity go the route you have been trying to push SUV's.Do we try and put a curve in the population growth to curb global warming or do we wear rebreathers.
Here's something else to ponder. Big huge cavernous pockets in the ground where all this oil is being pulled from.Oil is thick and heavy.It creates pressure on the walls around it underground. when its finally empty what happens then? can you say SINKHOLES......... the size of the Texas. How long before the structural integrity of the cavern diminishes. Its almost like a snow bridge,and when the variables are just right someone's in for a supprise
Just something that jumped in my head figured who better to drop it on!!!!
and to rob someone that posted it before hand ( can't recall who)What we do is comparable to a pimple on an elephants ass.the split second of a blink in a span of a century.
any comments you might have about my statements,save them for the next Ice Age they'll be just as effective!!
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rockpossum
Nov 29, 2002, 10:32 PM
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Whatever the truth is I hope all the lamenting will bring about less air pollution.
Maybe all the biznoid wannabes in their Explorers and family trucksters, urgently heading to the mall for some self gratification, will get off the road too. I'm not sure that is what the American way of life is supposed to be.
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petsfed
Nov 29, 2002, 11:29 PM
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Apologies all for repetition, but I'm not usually on a dial-up, otherwise I would've read everything.
I didn't think this would enter into the debate because its another "we're not quite sure" thing. I noticed this way back in the seventh grade when we had to graph sunspots for an assignment, and if you're willing to extrapolate backwards with me on this graph you'll note that there appears to be an approximately 50 year cycle of sun spot maximums on top of the regular 11 year cycle. Around 1920, the number is lower so there's the chink in the armor. You will also note that the maximum number of sunspots at a max has been steadily increasing since 1880. Backwards extrapolation of the data with these same patterns (an even bigger one that I'm not skilled enough to divine) places an unusual low around the 1600's. As Jody said, the earth has been warming up since then. Just another idea.
However, that's still no reason to keep polluting. We've seen all sorts of nasty side effects (like acid rain and human induced "natural" selection) from industrial activity, all from an over reliance on fossil fuels. We are seeing wars happen because of a concern for fossil fuels (and don't tell me that the oil fields in Iraq haven't glimmered in our policy makers' eyes, they have, why do you think we haven't jumped happily down the Saudis' throats just yet?). Of course, its a catch-22. Abandon oil and we solve part of our problems. But we also cut out over half of the middle east's economy, potentially causing more strife. So there you go, right back where we started from.
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wildtrail
Nov 29, 2002, 11:43 PM
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Thank you. For those that believe "man" causes global warming, please review the graph. It does explain a lot. Like he said, no reason to keep polluting, etc.
Now, can this thread die? (note the duality, irony, and hypocrasy of that statement)
Steve
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indeco
Nov 29, 2002, 11:56 PM
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I firmly believe that many world leaders are going receive lumps of coal from Santa this season, since they evidently feel it's a justifiable play toy. Some may even get two lumps.
[ This Message was edited by: indeco on 2002-11-29 15:57 ]
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sunsation
Nov 30, 2002, 1:10 AM
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Is global warming significant? Good question. Debatable. This question is merely one part of the bigger picture. Are we polluting the environment? Yes. That is not debatable. A few things for all of you to think about...check into the bleaching processes used to make your toilet paper, kleenex, sanitary products, etc. (horribly polluting); give some thought to that detergent you use to wash your clothes (full of chemicals that rub against your skin 24/7, plus get dumped into our oceans); how about that steak you are eating? (mad cow disease happened for a reason, but what are we REALLY doing to change how we raise our animals for slaughter?); what about the chemicals used to fertilize the food we eat?; how about the preservatives in our food? I once heard a stat that today it takes almost 25 years for our bodies to decompose after we die. Thirty years ago it took less than 5. We are embalming ourselves alive from all the preservatives in our food.
So is global warming signifcant? Who knows. But there ARE many things we could do individually to be gentler on our earth. In time I hope more people will educate themselves on the subject and make a conscious effort to protect this beautiful planet we call home.
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alexinmilton
Nov 30, 2002, 1:18 AM
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Jim I'd like to know where you got the idea that "By the time all the present oil is used up in a few hundred years, it will have replenished itself."
It's been a year but i recall (from a course I took last year at Western Uni.) that if the current trends continue then as early as 2050 we won't be able to have the oil to support our lifestlye.
The fossil fuels that we take for granted have been accumulating over millions of years. I'm not saying that the oil wells will be empty it's just that we will be at the spot where it will take one barrel of oil to extract a barrel (ie. not feisable)
Look at all of the changes that have happened (and our dependancy on fossil fuels) over the past century. I am definitly curious about the changes that will come about when we are forced to find an alternative fuel source.
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calimouth
Nov 30, 2002, 1:23 AM
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I would have to agree with those people who contend that Global Warming is not caused by humans. I recently took a course on Ecology and Evolution at Dartmouth College with a professor with whom i did not agree. After many instances of her mentioning global warming, I finally raised my hand and asked her for proof, thus setting off a firestorm of liberal anger. She gave me studies of ice cores that show temperature increase. These cores show increases since 2000 YEARS AGO! She then gave me studies of ocean temperatures. These readings were taken in the GULF STREAM, DURING SUMMMER!! She then gave me CO2 levels taken at Mauna Loa in Hawaii. These readings are taken during an especially active period in the volcano's history--OF COURSE CO2 WAS HIGHER!!
I am completely open-minded to information that people give me--except if it's swayed towards a certain viewpoint. Every scientist knows that you should not conduct a study to prove something--that's impossible. You can only disprove the "null hypothesis." And from my standpoint, scientists have yet to prove false that humans are not causing global warming.
However, make no mistake, the climate IS changing. It has done this for billions of years. Animals wouldn't even be here if it wasn't for a climatic period called "snowball earth." I just think that people need to think a little more. If you ask the average-informed person if humans are causing global warming, he/she will probably say yes. But, ask them how they know this, and they will stare at you blankly. All that I'm saying is to get the information straight from the source (i.e. published reports) and even then, question them.
Oh, and just to clear up something i saw posted earlier, greenhouse gases ARE NOT ozone depleting gases. The major greenhouse gases are carbon dioxide and methane. Ozone-depleting molecules are choro-flourocarbons, or CFCs. And if anyone has been reading the news or reports lately, the ozone hole is closing up and should be all but a memory in about 40 years. Good news for all!!
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tradguy
Dec 3, 2002, 12:03 AM
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Holy cow. I never realized there were so many uninformed people out there. A few disclaimers first:
a.) wildtrail - sorry, but I can't let this topic die with so much mis-information presented.
b.) YES, I have read every post in the 10 pages of this topic.
c.) I have witnessed first-hand glacial recession, and it has impacted (negatively) my climbing.
d.) I have degrees in Physics and Electrical Engineering, so while I'm not a genius, I'm also not an idiot, and have a scientific background which comes in quite handy for analyzing research data.
e.) I'm not going to summarily address every individual and statement that was somehow flawed, but I'll hit some major themes and call it good.
OK - now to cover some things:
1.) GRAVITY - whoever said gravity is theory and not law is on crack (figuratively) and clearly never took a quantum physics class. The causes, in addition to the effects, of gravitational attraction ARE understood by scientists. We even have equations to calculate gravitational attraction between two bodies of any given mass and distance of separation. Get a PhD in quantum physics and you will understand.
2.) AUTO INDUSTRY - SUV's are not the problem with pollution. Every car manufacturer is required to meet an overall fuel efficiency mark for the sum total of the cars it produces. Thus, for every 10 mpg Expedition put out by Ford, there are a certain number of 30+ mpg Focus's to balance it out. It's all controlled by legislation, which we as voters have the theoretical power to influence, but for now, eliminating SUVs simply means that the rest of the cars can be WORSE and we end up with the same effect. Keep in mind also, that just because a car gets better mileage doesn't automatically mean it's less polluting. Remove the catalytic converter from a Civic and see what you get. Look around sometime, and think how much better we'd be if we simply removed those old beasts that are churning out blue smoke from the tailpipe because the seals on the engine are shot and they are burning oil. But we can't do that, because it wouldn't be "fair" to the poor people.
3.) GLOBAL WARMING - Yes, the surface temp of the planet has ever so slowly been increasing by a fraction of a degree over the last century. No, it cannot be shown that it is being caused by humans, and most likely, any human contribution is infinitessimally small. The ice age / warming cycle is caused by the earth's spatial orientation and relative position to the sun. Throughout time, the earth's tilt changes from 22 degrees to 25 degrees in a regular cycle of about 41,000 years. Currently we are at 23.5 degrees. The axis around which the earth rotates also exhibits a "wobble". The wobble essentially causes in the seasons to shift in relation to the earth's position in it's orbit of the sun. The period of the wobble is about 26,000 years, with winter and summer basically being switched half way in between (ie 13,000 yrs). The shape of the earths orbit also changes from circular to eliptical and back in a regular cycle of about 100,000 years. When you plot all these changes simulatenously, the result is a complex sinusoidal relation of time and predicted temperature (due to changes in angle and amplitude of incident solar energy upon the earth) that coincides very precisely with global temperature changes throughout earth history.
What does all this mean? It means global warming is a normal, predictable astronomic event, and that it is absurdly egocentric to believe that we have any effect or control on or over it. Now I know that all the cars and emissions are not good for the planet - hell, I think it sucks that when I was a kid I could see the front range from 50 miles east of Denver, and now I can't even see it IN Denver - but that pollution has little if anything at all to do with global warming, and should be attacked in the name of air quality, not under the false pretense that we are turning the planet into a giant oven.
There are many more things I'd like to comment on, but that's enough for now. Thanks for reading!
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flying_dutchman
Dec 3, 2002, 12:17 AM
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we are still screwing our world in a big way though; cutting down forests, picking up kids from school via surburban when they could get off their lazy assess and walk for five minutes which in turn affects health care and... damn, off topic. so the moral of this forum is?
[ This Message was edited by: flying_dutchman on 2002-12-02 16:34 ]
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mtnjohn
Dec 3, 2002, 12:44 AM
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The world is going to die.
Humans will have long since been extinct when it happens.
Our effect on this spinning rock will have been long removed & replaced.
That said, lets try and keep the good parts good as long as we're still around. It just makes sense.
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philbox
Moderator
Dec 3, 2002, 1:02 AM
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Thanks Tradguy for a very informative and balanced post. You brought together an awesome amount of facts in a succinct post. Dude ya rock.
...Phil...
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ambler
Dec 3, 2002, 1:50 AM
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If you're interested in global warming, or the growing body of evidence that has many climate scientists seriously concerned, there's a lot of information out there. Possible starting points include the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency's site:
http://yosemite.epa.gov/oar/globalwarming.nsf/content/index.html
or the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration:
http://lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html
Much better yet, read a year's issues of Science, for reports from the real cutting edge. If you don't read the journals, don't assume that the issues are simple and you know the answers. (If you do read the journals, you'll know why they're not.)
Do *not* look for your information on Rockclimbing.com, unless you understand that all you're getting here is a bunch of climbers' opinions. Some expressed loudly, or with great confidence, but that doesn't make them true.
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tradguy
Dec 3, 2002, 3:47 PM
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As an interesting side note, this "global warming" business has only been an issue for a few years. Prior to that, people were all deeply concerned about "global cooling" and worried that we were gaining speed toward the next ice age.
Check out this article on GLOBAL COOLING from 1975, a further example that people are generally unwilling to accept that our planet undergoes contant change that is not under our control, and that EVERYBODY has an agenda, and will twist and distort any data to reinforce their point and promote their stance.
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