PS I’m bored

PS I’m bored

i disagree.

a) following trad wont teach you a anything but how to belay and remove pro. you can teach that on a sport climb too, plus the beginner can start learning to lead sooner.

b) trad by itself does not promote enviromental consciousness. a good mentor does. the same goes for adventure.

All beginners should learn to climb outdoors on trad climbs. Climbing indoors promotes to many bad habits,

Trad is the only true way!

well for one "trad" or traditional techniques are relatively new to climbing - 70's i believe.

also i don't think learning to belay by belaying a trad leader is the best ideaunless there is a back up belayer on site. .

gym's test n00b's before they belay so you got to learn outside, right?.

so top roping with a expierenced friend or guide seems to me to be the way to learn

my friend how wrong can you be, the basics of trad climbing go a long way back there are climbs from the 19th century which were done in a traditional way(all be it with a hemp rope and pebbles as chockstones)

belaying a trad leader will teach you far more about good belaying practice, then belaying someone on fixed gear.

Being on a long trad route, and being part of the decision making, even as a beginner, gives you ownership of your own safety and is a essential part of becoming a safe and competent climber.

There is no reason why a beginner should serve a long apprenticeship seconding, before they start leading, Having said learning to climb on trad does take a bit longer but it should do and is good for a beginner to take on the responsibilities of trade leading.

Indoors? realy

....snip a whole bunch of interesting stuff.

I think it is a very bad idea and here's why. 20+ years ago, this was the way to go. Find a mentor and learn the tricks of the trade from them.

well for one "trad" or traditional techniques are relatively new to climbing - 70's i believe.

Climbing indoors promotes to many bad habits

... It does not give any appreciation for the outdoors and the environment.

... It kills all ideas of adventure, of independence,

...of taking responsibility for your own actions

After you learn outdoors, then you can go indoors to learn your bad habits - you'll have fewer things to learn all at once.

Um, not necessarily. Lots of us more or less taught ourselves, soon heading up easy multipitch climbs with equally untrained partners. "Find a mentor" is a relatively new mantra. Decades ago the people attracted to climbing, and motivated enough to start learning, tended to be more independent-minded, more capable of figuring things out or coping with the jams they got into, than beginners tend to be now that climbing is a mass sport -- at least, that's my guess from watching the kind of elementary questions people ask every day on this site. You couldn't post a forum question then, but you could read a book. Yet even with trial-and-error learning, the earlier beginners were not dying like flies.

First, a bad habit is driving your car on the wrong side of the road. If a person has good gym habits and never leaves the gym, that's great. It is also none of your business.

Next, Who the hell cares about their appreciation for the outdoors. What you think is important might not be the same for others. What they appreciate is none of your business.

Then kills adventure. For many people, climbing in a gym is more adventure then they could have imagined in their lives. There are many people who have desk jobs who meet with their book club, eat lunch out on the same day every week, and have nothing in their lives that meets your "adventure" requirement. I'm sure they would be sad to know that they are not valid as human beings.

And last, why does climbing in a gym cause people to not have resonsibility for their own actions. There are lots of dirtbag trad climbers who shoplift and lots of gym climbers who save others lives on a daily basis. What the hell does a gym have to do with personal responsibility either way.

Now try changing your stupid post to suggest that an excercise gym, the kind with weights and stationary bikes, somehow has these effects on people and you'll see just how dumb it is to suggest that a climbing gym as control over people and their thoughts and actions.

I will concede that if a person wants to eventually move to trad climbing then a climbing gym might not be the best training ground. But if not, everything you suggest seems a litle dumb to me.

Dave

Trad is the only true way!

No no no, bouldering is the only true way!

Baa hahahahahaha

Nah, milk is the only true whey.

What were we talking about again?

GO

If anything, indoor climbing gives you horrid footwork. You learn to campus everything, which never works outside.

I taught my girlfriend to belay in about ten minutes...

I taught my girlfriend to belay in about ten minutes...

Then for others [the] is a way to get started, meet other climbers and hopefully eventually learn that they don't know what climbing is all about but would like to learn more.

You've made three assertions above and gotten all of them wrong. First of all, gym climbing doesn't "give you" anything. You get out of your gym training what you put into it. If, when you climb in the gym, you make an effort to learn good footwork, then you will learn good footwork in the gym; otherwise, you won't. Secondly, you don't learn to campus everything unless you campus everything. Stop campusing and maybe you'll learn how to use your feet. Finally, while campus moves outside are uncommon, you will occasionally come accross legitimate foot-off moves.

-Jay

You've made three assertions above and gotten all of them wrong. First of all, gym climbing doesn't "give you" anything. You get out of your gym training what you put into it. If, when you climb in the gym, you make an effort to learn good footwork, then you will learn good footwork in the gym; otherwise, you won't. Secondly, you don't learn to campus everything unless you campus everything. Stop campusing and maybe you'll learn how to use your feet. Finally, while campus moves outside are uncommon, you will occasionally come accross legitimate foot-off moves.

-Jay

Not all trad climbs have a walk-off or trees to sling, so how do all these pure trad climbers get back down?

I'm going to pick on another pet peeve of yours, Jay, and say that steep gym climbing is to footwork as Gri Gris are to belaying. That is to say - it's not so much that you're "forced" to develop poor footwork by climbing first in the gym, any more than you're "forced" to develop poor belay skills when belaying first with a Gri Gri. However, if someone just says - here you go, have at it, the climber outside on a slab is forced to develop some rudimentary footwork immediately, and the user of an ATC is forced to acknowledge that locking off and keeping a hand on the brake strand is important. Know what I'm saying?

I'm not bashing either the gym or the gri-gri. I like and use both a great deal! I'm just pointing out that without the proper training which you often point out is so vital, both provide exceptionally fertile ground for breeding bad habits.

GO

...snip... you don't learn to campus everything unless you campus everything. Stop campusing and maybe you'll learn how to use your feet.

The problem is they don't necessarily seek out knowledgeable partners before venturing outdoors. Most of who have been around for a while would agree, I think, that the overall population of climbers has become less safe since the advent of gym climbing. Most gym climbers don't even belay safely, much less understand the additional complexities of outdoor climbing.

-Jay

worst argument / analogy yet

who can top that?

thank you speedwrong SP? I was hoping someone would call the troll out.

When I took my drivers test I took it in a manual. Cleary everyone should learn to drive on a manual blah blah blah.

The only thing that is really pure is the coke you snorted before you posted (to the OP).

Have fun in whatever you do. To me that is what climbing is about (yes I know same old argument) I'm not going to be some guide or anything like that. I learned to climb in the gym made some great friends. I enjoy climbing sport or trad. I will boulder on occassion. I love climbing but don't enjoy being cold or getting up really really early to go climb 30 min away.

end ramble

S

I'm not familiar with this term "to campus". What do you mean by that?

Rob

I'm not familiar with this term "to campus". What do you mean by that?

Rob

"Campusing" is doing moves with the feet off.

Seriously, you don't know?

Nah, milk is the only true whey.

What were we talking about again?

GO
___

I think it is a very bad idea and here's why. 20+ years ago, this was the way to go. Find a mentor and learn the tricks of the trade from them. All there was was trad. With the boom in the sport, there are way too many beginners for the "experienced" to mentor. Which means, if all the beginners were going out and learning trad, there would be far more accidents then there are now. Gyms serve a purpose. To many (including myself), it is training. To many more, it is the gym climbing that many strive for. Then for others it is a way to get started, meet other climbers and hopefully eventually learn that they don't know what climbing is all about but would like to learn more. Then they will begin to seek out the more learned climbers and go from there. If you send them all out on there own in the beginning without the honeymoon phase, then you will probably be sending a lot of them to their death.

Josh

All beginners should learn to climb outdoors on trad climbs. Climbing indoors promotes to many bad habits, it does not instil the kind of knowledge and experience about safety as one gets form trad climbing, it does not give a wider understanding about climbing and rope work. It does not give any appreciation for the outdoors and the environment. It kills all ideas of adventure, of independence, of taking responsibility for your own actions, learning indoors you hand over all these things to an unknown person. Trad is the only true way!

PS I’m bored

To crack lover

I really enjoyed your first post. I started climbing in some what of a similar fashion.


as for stuff like this? Lets face it its a forum. Most of the time I say sarcastic or cynical remarks and its all in fun and games.

I still agree that it is a horrible analogy and here is why.
Let me first give you my understanding (please let me know if I'm way off)

Gym climbing is to footwork as
Gri gris are to belaying

Wow does this feel like SATs

Your two arguments are that gym climbing creates bad footwork? And grigris are ruining belaying. People shouldn't learn to belay with a gri gri they should learn on a tube belay device, hip belay, or if you are curt a foot belay.

The reason why I don't think it makes that much sense is because it is only taking one side. Sure I've seen a lot of bad footwork in the gym, and contributed my share also. But I don't think see the connection between your analogy.

Lets go take a look at the argument for gri gris. Why do some gyms have these $50-$70 devices on all of their ropes (i.e. vertical world in Seattle)? It is because it significantly lowers insurance costs.
While other gyms like Stone Gardens don't have gri gris attached to any of their ropes.

Certain people just want certain things out of climbing (dub no s---) well its the same for the gym rats. While some people might display poor footwork or never learn to lead, use a belay device and so forth, they are content with where they are. Its a fun sociable "hip" maybe way to work out. While for others, probably the majority so who have responded in this thread, either hate gyms or use them to train. Perhaps they live in an area that gets a lot of rain or the nearest climb is 4 hours away. I dunno?

One more thing while I'm still typing
To the comment about, gyms taking away money that could go towards a rack. That is great if you can climb year round. Maybe you have a woody, train with something, or are able to get out a lot. I know a lot of people who don't $40 a month to throw around to climb at a gym, so instead they belay at the gym in exchange for a free membership. It s a pretty win-win deal.

S

Edit: I still don't like waking up early or the cold

Ok after re reading that it still doesn't make sense
bottom line your analogy works if you view them both as negative things
I'm just saying their is another side to both of those. That is why I don't think it works as an analogy

ok this is my last edit (hmm or maybe it was too push 100...)
The reason why I didn't make an argument earlier is
If someone wants to believe trad is the only way to go, I don't really care.
Go ahead, live in your bubble. USA is the greatest country in the world #1
#1. Yeah look at our GDP >20% of world GDP.

It is ignoring a lot of facts and is just showing my ignorance.

At least the analogy was coherent.

-Jay
______________________
I am a dork

I really enjoyed your first post. I started climbing in some what of a similar fashion.

Let me first give you my understanding (please let me know if I'm way off)

Gym climbing is to footwork as
Gri gris are to belaying

Wow does this feel like SATs

Your two arguments are that gym climbing creates bad footwork? And grigris are ruining belaying. People shouldn't learn to belay with a gri gri they should learn on a tube belay device, hip belay, or if you are curt a foot belay.

Love the sig.

I read about far more accidents now, than when there weren't gyms. Some of this could be a result of the increased number of climbers out there, although some of it is the result of people gaining a certain level of false confidence in their skills, from what they've learned in gyms.

Handling a sixty foot coil of rope and a Grigri, in a climate controlled environment will teach one very little about rope management. A qualified instructor and some exposure to the real elements will teach a new climber much more about the realities of what they will face in nature.

It will also give them a better sense of how seriously they should take the inherent dangers that will inevitably confront them in a natural environment.

It's a cause and effect thing, or a chicken and egg thing, if you will. I don't think anyone will argue that there are more accidents now. I wasn't even around "back in the day", and I know that there are far more accidents now. But, is it because of gyms, or does the advent of gyms just coincide with it. Yes, there is some poor instruction in gyms, but there is also some excellent instruction. There is also very poor instruction outside. A few months ago, I had to come to some poor girl's rescue, because her "experienced" friend was trying to teach her how to clean an anchor and rappel 60 feet below her. After watching and listening for a couple minutes, I stepped in and offered to climb up and help her. When I went up, she had misunderstood and somehow had tied herself to the rappel rings. She was safe but she certainly wasn't rappelling anywhere. After re-explaining it, she was down in a few seconds. What if she had misunderstood a different way and ended up at the bottom a lot faster?

My point is that the way climbing is so accessible to the common man is a good thing, but because of this, some people think they are more experienced than they are. Are gyms to blame for this? No. They may help contribute to it, but to say that Gyms teach bad habits is wrong. They are there to provide an easy outlet to learn. If you learn bad habits, it is your own fault.

Josh

Love for the outdoors is entirely a personal matter. If you don't connect with nature while climbing trad, that doesn't make you a bad climber or a bad person. Some people focus on the sport, and appreciate the aesthetics later. Personally, I do feel that connection, but not everyone will, and that's ok.

How pathetic is it that the only way you can come out ahead is to fabricate your opponent's comments.

You're not my opponent...

Grow up already. You act like you're in junior high.

-Jay

Quote :
Be vigilant of your testicles. Watch for swelling, bruising, continued pain, or bleeding.
--Reno

I read about far more accidents now, than when there weren't gyms. Some of this could be a result of the increased number of climbers out there, although some of it is the result of people gaining a certain level of false confidence in their skills, from what they've learned in gyms.

Handling a sixty foot coil of rope and a Grigri, in a climate controlled environment will teach one very little about rope management. A qualified instructor and some exposure to the real elements will teach a new climber much more about the realities of what they will face in nature.

It will also give them a better sense of how seriously they should take the inherent dangers that will inevitably confront them in a natural environment.

All beginners should learn to climb outdoors on trad climbs. Climbing indoors promotes to many bad habits, it does not instil the kind of knowledge and experience about safety as one gets form trad climbing, it does not give a wider understanding about climbing and rope work. It does not give any appreciation for the outdoors and the environment. It kills all ideas of adventure, of independence, of taking responsibility for your own actions, learning indoors you hand over all these things to an unknown person. Trad is the only true way!

PS I’m bored

Yo Bill,

When are you going to make it down. Plenty of firsts to do here. I have this killer chimney climb I've been looking at. :lol:

All beginners should learn to climb outdoors on trad climbs. Climbing indoors promotes to many bad habits, it does not instil the kind of knowledge and experience about safety as one gets form trad climbing, it does not give a wider understanding about climbing and rope work. It does not give any appreciation for the outdoors and the environment. It kills all ideas of adventure, of independence, of taking responsibility for your own actions, learning indoors you hand over all these things to an unknown person. Trad is the only true way!