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asandh
Oct 21, 2005, 6:18 PM
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:)
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markd
Oct 21, 2005, 6:32 PM
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there is clear directions written up for this area in climbing #238(April 05).
also, i believe directions were originally posted on this site, but some locals were not happy about it, which i can understand.
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asandh
Oct 21, 2005, 6:43 PM
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:)
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markd
Oct 21, 2005, 6:52 PM
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i agree!
i don't think so much unorganized info should be floating around the web on such a pristine area either. the gridbolting could get out of hand at shuteye!
when i posted my pics of the area, i posted them under "high sierra". this way people would know what's out there if they only looked.
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thrmaln
Oct 22, 2005, 6:45 PM
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I just spent about an hour or so drooling over the photos as well as the route information. It looks like an amazing place. Now I need to find my april 05 mag, order a wheelbarrow full of bolts and anchors, bring my generator and bolt the shit out of this place! Polish all the the bolts and hangers so they glisten in the sun to all the 747's flying above. Just Kidding! It looks like most of the routes are just outside my ability at the moment, so maybe I'll visit (sans bolts) in the future.
Best regards,
Marc Webster
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reno
Oct 22, 2005, 6:54 PM
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Did you try this?
Just curious.
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socalbolter
Oct 25, 2005, 10:57 PM
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First off, I'm not a local.
I drive about 6 hours to get to Shuteye.
That said, I spent over 20 days there this summer, climbing established routes and adding new routes. Also taking a few photos.
When I would come home from my trips I would post route info in the hopes that others would be able to enjoy the place as well.
My friend (who lives up there) added a ton of area info on this site (including directions) only to be asked by the locals to remove directions. I also think it's hypocritical for them to ask for info on our new routes in one breath and then tell us not to share info on the area or their routes in the next.
The climbing world has always been a petty place, full of closely guarded "secrets." I guess in the locals' minds Shuteye is one of those secrets. I for one think their attitude and sense of possession is a real shame. Shuteye is a huge area that is home to dozens of major formations and many, many smaller formations. This place could be home to hundreds of climbers without it ever seeming crowded.
Take the time to search out the info you need and visit. You won't regret it.
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fng
Oct 26, 2005, 12:10 AM
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All hail Socalbolter. I climbing with him a couple weeks ago and the man is a stud. He did trail work and bolted all day, establishing one of the best walls I've been on, then has me belay him on a .12c. STUD!!
As far as bolting, it was some of the best bolt placement I've have seen. Bolt nicely spaced on steep sh*t.
I am a local and have recently found Shuteye through "sierraclimber', also a stud. The place is unbelievable with unbelievable potential. The drive is one hour from Oakhurst and 5 formations within a 5 to 15 walk. Other are a bit further but it is not as screwed up as most people report. I think they are trying to scare people off.
If you want to go and I am able I will show you where it's at. I would love more people to put up more routes for me to climb.
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alter_nate
Oct 26, 2005, 12:25 AM
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Hi Louie,
Likewise, I am no local. And I'm also a nobody in terms of the microscopic Shuteye "scene", if one even exists. I've climbed in the region for 10+ years. I spent 7 precious days climbing in Southern Yosemite this year and savored every minute. I can understand your desire to share great routes. It's one of the joys of climbing. On the other hand, I do empathize with the following statement:
"In certain areas, an open conspiracy of climbers will keep a guidebook from
ever appearing. I'm not trying to protect the area, I'm trying to protect the
experience, the exploration, which is as essential to the wilderness experience
as the climbing is. This thing about people getting the best out of the time
that they put in is one of the places where I stop. Obviously, you're going to
spend more time stumbling around, yet on the other hand, it seems to me, one of
the characteristics of Alpinism is exploration; and the more of that there is
around, potentially, then the more area there is to create in. If you write a
guidebook you've eliminated the unknown. In large degree wilderness consists of
the unknown, maybe as much as it does in land without roads." --Doug Robinson
(1974)
Some may view the lack of sharing as selfish. But what is right for the area? I don't know the answer, but you said yourself that it's definitelly not the typical roadside sport climbing destination. There's something there for everyone who visits - from long trad routes to runout moderates from the 70s to fun and serious clip ups. A very unique balance, and I really hope it can remain so.
And BTW, really great pictures.
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boltdude
Oct 26, 2005, 12:35 AM
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Quoting Doug Robinson on wilderness and savoring adventure and exploration -
at an area where most of the new routes going in are rap-bolted sport routes?
HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!
Good one...
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josephgdawson
Oct 26, 2005, 1:07 AM
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Fuck elitist locals, I'll post directions right here as soon as I find them. What else is the net good for if not for democratizing information? Climbers are not the only elitists who get upset and whine when they lose control of information, all sorts of elitists whine about it.
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yosemite
Oct 26, 2005, 1:51 AM
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On one hand, we have people screaming about respecting local ethics, styles and values. On the other, some people think they have a right to know everything about an area.
The local consensus, as far as I can tell, is to go climb and not hype the area. The recent postings are a bit like being "a little pregnant." You can either post up or shut up, but not both.
FYI.... It’s a bit north of Porterville.
Greg,
I miss your point. Notwithstanding Socalbolter's recent hyping of the area, I don't see any contradiction between rap bolting and not disseminating route info if the latter is the long standing local custom. I also realize that the days of solitude in this part of the world are limited.
Gene
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fng
Oct 26, 2005, 2:24 AM
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alter_nate,
I agree with what you said totally. The only thing is that Shuteye has access that seems to make it more of a drive up location than an Alpine area. Unless I'm off, which is very possible, Alpine is not really the elevation but rather the location. Something with a serious hike where you camp out of your pack and have to haul everything in on your back.
Shuteye isn't like that. You can drive up to that first camp site with a high clearance 2wd and be climbing in within 15 min. Some of the Rock has a definite hike and I think those areas will remain quiet even if the secret gets out, similar to the outer rocks in Yosemite, Courtright, Etc. The crowds always go to the easy and close approaches.
I am excited to see development in the area and hope it continues. There is so much rock and untouched potential. It would be a shame others couldn't share in the experience.
***On the flip side I love climbing and not seeing another soul the whole trip. I don't climb Yosemite very often because there are so many people and I got really turned off the first time there were four parties on the climb I was on. Now I climb other areas, some never to be written about by me, where I see no one. But I still enjoy climbing Yosemite on occasion. Anyone who wants to find isolation and solitude need only explore for new areas especially here in the Sierras.
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boltdude
Oct 26, 2005, 2:24 AM
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In reply to: I don't see any contradiction between rap bolting and not disseminating route info
Doug's comments are about keeping an area secret to preserve adventure.
Many new routes at shuteye are grid-bolted rap bolting - the essence of eliminating adventure in climbing. A few people taking up a ton of climbing terrain in no time at all, with ground-up opportunities fading fast on at least some of the crags.
So the contradiction in using Doug's comments to keep an area secret while those keeping it secret are rap-grid-bolting should be pretty obvious...
And even if the routes were all going in ground-up, doing so many so quickly robs other folks of the chance to do those routes. "Leave it for future climbers" - Ron Kauk, overheard after TRing a sicko prominent arete in Yosemite in '95 or so.
Greg
PS I'm not really annoyed or anything, I'm sure I'll have a lot of fun on Louie's lines, it's just that the use of the quote seemed to me to be disrespectful of one of the pioneers of clean climbing in the US.
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alter_nate
Oct 26, 2005, 5:48 AM
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I meant no disrespect to Doug at all - infact, it's the exact opposite. I would hope there is more "clean" climbing going on at Shuteye than there may be - or at least the slower rate of development to which it is often synonymous. Ultimately it matters less to me personally how the route was put up than that the rock doesn't get unneccesarily overdeveloped, and that good natural lines aren't swallowed up in bolts. Yes, leave something for future generations, by all means! There's a lot of rock to go around, and not a lot of climbers.
Also, I don't interpret Doug's statement to be about clean climbing as much as preserving the adventure of an area. Sure "adventure" means different things to different people, but it's not just about the climbing itself. Much of it lies in the unknown and the mystery - rather than having everything handed to you on a silver platter. And even though Shuteye is not an alpine setting, most who have been there would agree it feels like wilderness.
By contributing to the recent article, Doug obviously has a soft spot for the place.
I appreciate your insight Greg. I'll shut up now.
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markd
Oct 26, 2005, 7:11 PM
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socalbolter and sierraclimber
i understand and respect putting up new routes as i do plenty myself. what i don't understand is why would so many new routes get put so fast and in such close proximity of each other?
the new routes listed are stacked right on top of each other.
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hasbeen
Oct 26, 2005, 9:02 PM
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i've been around this local/non-local should we/should we not gibberish forever. what i want to know is who is doing all the complaining, and why?
it's got to be people who want to read about climbing, not those who actually go climbing. does lack of a "guide" keep anyone from climbing anywhere if they really want to? are there people out that that would love to check out shuteye but truly believe that they couldn't find it with a little fortitude? c'mon!
okay, there are. but these people aren't really climbers. they're tourists n' shit. or perhaps their people who, i dunno, like to banter on sites like this. a climber could find it by doing a bit of homework. have climbers really become this lazy or are they just looking for something new to bicker about?
if you can't find ballpark directions to this area based on the information given, the pics, and 15 minutes of reading maps and putting two and two together, you should not be allowed to frggin' climb.
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socalbolter
Oct 26, 2005, 11:16 PM
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MARKD wrote:
In reply to: socalbolter and sierraclimber i understand and respect putting up new routes as i do plenty myself. what i don't understand is why would so many new routes get put so fast and in such close proximity of each other? the new routes listed are stacked right on top of each other.
OK, so if I understand this correctly when I see an amazing wall, full of wonderful climbing options, that instead of enjoying all that the wall has to offer, I should pace myself by not climbing too many in the same visit? How long should I allow between routes? One per trip? Two per trip? I think I've averaged about one new route per day and a half that I've been there. Is that too many?
As for the spacing of the routes, all you're seeing here is the info and photographs that I've posted. For the record, the routes shown on my photos and topos are not all new routes. Also, the other formations have established routes with the same proximity to each other. What you see here is a continuation of the development patterns found on High Eagle, The Aerie, Electric Eagle, Queens Throne, Catnap, etc.
I guess it's easy to find fault when sitting at your computer. Maybe the naysayers should go to Shuteye and climb the routes before they comment. They might just enjoy themselves.
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socalbolter
Oct 26, 2005, 11:18 PM
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MARKD wrote:
In reply to: socalbolter and sierraclimber i understand and respect putting up new routes as i do plenty myself. what i don't understand is why would so many new routes get put so fast and in such close proximity of each other? the new routes listed are stacked right on top of each other.
OK, so if I understand this correctly when I see an amazing wall, full of wonderful climbing options, that instead of enjoying all that the wall has to offer, I should pace myself by not climbing too many in the same visit? How long should I allow between routes? One per trip? Two per trip? I think I've averaged about one new route per day and a half that I've been there. Is that too many?
As for the spacing of the routes, all you're seeing here is the info and photographs that I've posted. For the record, the routes shown on my photos and topos are not all new routes. Also, the other formations have established routes with the same proximity to each other. What you see here is a continuation of the development patterns found on High Eagle, The Aerie, Electric Eagle, Queens Throne, Catnap, etc.
I guess it's easy to find fault when sitting at your computer. Maybe the naysayers should go to Shuteye and climb the routes before they comment. They might just enjoy yourself.
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fng
Oct 27, 2005, 12:03 AM
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I climbed some of the routes at Shangri-La. The routes are not way spread out like some locations but this wall is not like other places. The wall is vertical to overhanging and very featured. Each routes is totally different. I for one am glad to have a wall like this near where I live. I can crank out a bunch of climbing on excellent routes. They are only 1/2 pitch routes anyway.
It is not like Socalbolter and Sierraclimber went to a huge dome and put up routes all over the dam thing every ten feet. They created an awesome sport wall. If you want to climb a route or a route not so close to other routes, go to another dome or rock. There is everything from multi pitch trad to short sport. Take your pick.
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markd
Oct 27, 2005, 12:05 AM
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In reply to: MARKD wrote: In reply to: socalbolter and sierraclimber i understand and respect putting up new routes as i do plenty myself. what i don't understand is why would so many new routes get put so fast and in such close proximity of each other? the new routes listed are stacked right on top of each other. OK, so if I understand this correctly when I see an amazing wall, full of wonderful climbing options, that instead of enjoying all that the wall has to offer, I should pace myself by not climbing too many in the same visit? How long should I allow between routes? One per trip? Two per trip? I think I've averaged about one new route per day and a half that I've been there. Is that too many? As for the spacing of the routes, all you're seeing here is the info and photographs that I've posted. For the record, the routes shown on my photos and topos are not all new routes. Also, the other formations have established routes with the same proximity to each other. What you see here is a continuation of the development patterns found on High Eagle, The Aerie, Electric Eagle, Queens Throne, Catnap, etc. I guess it's easy to find fault when sitting at your computer. Maybe the naysayers should go to Shuteye and climb the routes before they comment. They might just enjoy themselves.
what i'm trying to say is, if there is so much rock everywhere, why would you put a bunch of routes right next to each? it's not smith rock! i just don't know why a wall would have to have so many routes. i'm not attacking you, i'm asking politely.
i don't think the history of the place overall for the last 30 plus years includes so much grid bolting. it seems like you could walk around a little bit and do a route here and there, not just conquer a wall add put as many routes as possible on it.
for the record, i have been their, and my first time wasn't this year!
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dingus
Oct 27, 2005, 12:12 AM
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The first route I did on Shuteye was on Gray Eagle Dome, 1989. I've climbed many of the major formations and have logged time on remote things like Balloon Dome and bouldering on the ridge after the slab where all the pussy SUV's turn around. Done old school Robbins routes on Queens Throne and tame but hard Spencer clipups at Fresno Dome.
I think its just fine that these guys are developing a sport wall. I think its even better they are making strangers aware of them. I know where these routes are and I can find them when I choose. If any of you lack the simple skills to find a well documented crag then you really and truly don't belong there.
To sierra and socalbolters....
ironically (or not, as I know you will identify with the following), I'm not all that motivated to come down there and try your routes. 2 reasons... one, they are too hard for me, lol! Well done. But more importantly,
We have our own projects to work on. I'd druther spend my time on my projects than yours, no offence!
Now if you saw fit to open and publish a few new III's and IV's... then I'd be down for a visit!
Cheers and thanks for keeping me thinking of Mammoth Pool country!
DMT
For the 'want something longer than 100' crowd' and especially for the 'one or two routes per face should suffice' team:
http://www.summitpost.org/....pl/mountain_id/5776
There is adventure a plenty to be had south of Yosemite, sport climbing on Shuteye Ridge notwithstanding.
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socalbolter
Oct 27, 2005, 12:57 AM
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Don't worry markd, I'm not seeing this as an attack. I simply don't understand your point. I've got extremely thick skin and can handle a jab or two (intentional or not).
Given your recent post, I gather I should wander from formation to formation and do a route here and another there. Why? Shangri La is very near to the climbers' camp and is the wall that motivated me the most. Why not focus on it? Others are motivated by different formations and they are climbing and bolting on those formations. Their preference and choice. Shangri La was mine. That said, you should know that it is not the only wall I've bolted in Shuteye. I've added routes to six different formations there.
You mentioned that you'd been there before. No doubt you've climbed on High Eagle Dome, where there are just as many routes as on Shangri La, and in the same width of cliff? Or maybe on the Aerie, just downhill from High Eagle where the same density exists?
Like I said, if I feel inspired to add routes and spend my time and $ doing so, why should I not climb what appeals to me?
Shangri La is not the only sport wall in Shuteye, it's just one of the best.
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alter_nate
Oct 27, 2005, 1:16 AM
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Nice addition so summitpost Dingus! I knew you were up to something by contacting Mike Graber. And I was wondering when someone with firsthand knowledge was finally going to post up that giant Balloon. FYI, I don't know when you were last there, but there are now 20+ new 1,000 ft. sport routes on the west face. I'd recommend the helicopter approach. Enjoy!
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ikellen
Nov 6, 2005, 12:46 AM
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One question, and I say this not as a personal attack, but as something I noticed: In the original Rock and Ice article about Shuteye Pass, Doug Robinson talked about a bolting ethic similar to the original bolting ethics in Tuolumne (long runouts, bolts only where needed). I read the article and decided that its another sierra area with sierra bolting ethics. Now I come back months later and see the place bolted like a sport crag. What happened to the original ethic, and why did it change? I don't mean this as a jab neccesarily, but if there is already shaky relations with locals, changing the entire bolting ethic of the area can't help things.
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socalbolter
Nov 6, 2005, 2:27 AM
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No offense taken Karen.
The original boltings ethics were those embraced in the 60's and 70's. After that the general area became somewhat of a ghost town until climbers began visiting again in the late 80's and into the 90's. These "modern" climbers bolted both on the lead and on rappel, with the resulting routes having far more bolts, and closer together bolts than those found on the older routes.
Jump forward to the mid to late 90's. Yet another group of "locals" begin climbing in the area. These climbers adopt more of a sport climbing approach to route development. Their routes on Electric Eagle Dome (aka: Gold Eagle Dome), High Eagle Dome, The Aerie and elsewhere resemble the routes that you would see at any modern sport crag.
Leap forward a few more years to the routes that I and others have added in the last few years. We've continued the sport climbing development and our bolt spacing is on par with what's been done there over the last 15 years. We have selected the walls that appeal more to sport climbing than other styles of climbing (steep, featured walls with no naturally-protected options) and these are the walls that have seen our activity.
There are still plenty of formations out there that appeal to other climbing and protection styles, whether that be long cracks or knobby faces where knob tie-offs provide the protection. In the recent magazine article, the authors chose to provide only half the story (the half that supported the OK for public consumption story of the area) where they described long runouts, bushwack approaches, bad roads, etc. If you're looking for that you can find it there, but it's not all the way they described it.
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alter_nate
Nov 9, 2005, 9:31 PM
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It's hard for any one specific bolting ethic to prevail when there's next to nobody around (and rock suitable for all styles of climbing).
And the old ethic isn't completely gone. If I'm not mistaken, the same folks responsible for many fine rap & drill sport routes have, and continue to, put up some predominantly trad lines ground up.
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socalbolter
Nov 11, 2005, 3:18 AM
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Well said, Nate.
People are only getting the impression that the area is mainly sport climbing, because those are the routes that they've seen photos of. You could go out and take every bit as good of photos of long trad routes or runout face climbs.
The climbing there is top notch, regardless of your preference.
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fungusamungus
Nov 11, 2005, 1:47 PM
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Socalbolter said:
The climbing world has always been a petty place, full of closely guarded "secrets." I guess in the locals' minds Shuteye is one of those secrets. I for one think their attitude and sense of possession is a real shame.
Louie-
Email me regarding some info I'd like to discuss with you about Shuteye. Just to let you know, I'm friends with Matt Shutz and I've talked with Grahm Doe several times and getting to know him. I feel both of them welcome community and getting out new route info. However, I feel they also want to ensure there is continuity in putting up routes and avoiding "grid bolting". Keep in mind, this is not Holcomb Valley Pinnacles.
Additionally, I will voice one thing about FA's......whoever you are that is using ASCA hangers on FA's....KNOCK IT OFF!! Those hangers are not for FA's but for rebolting efforts. And, yes, I have an opinion and a right to speak on the matter because I contribute money to the cause and support it.
DMT -
"....but hard Spencer clipups at Fresno Dome."
Are you serious? Talk about soft ratings!! Thank Mark personally for Squarenail and Tollhouse gridbolting....
C'mon dude....
alter_nate said:
"And the old ethic isn't completely gone. If I'm not mistaken, the same folks responsible for many fine rap & drill sport routes have, and continue to, put up some predominantly trad lines ground up."
Very true. Kris Solem comes to mind (put up one of Courtright's hardest climbs 'The Gold Standard' .12a). Bottom line: I love our southern Sierra climbing community and it's history.
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dingus
Nov 11, 2005, 2:48 PM
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Whatever fungus. You know what I meant.
Ciao
DMT
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fungusamungus
Nov 11, 2005, 7:38 PM
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D -
Just so you know....it Dave Daly on this end (aka fungusamungus). I'm not razing you...just busting Spencer's inconsistant ratings throughout the years. Sorry Brother Toast....
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socalbolter
Nov 11, 2005, 11:18 PM
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Fungus (Dave) -
Since you posted to me in a public forum, instead of emailing or PMing, I see no point in doing anything other than that. If you want to PM or email me with questions - go for it. All that contact info is on my profile page or you can just address socalbolter@cox.net.
Since you obviously haven't taken the time to talk to Matt or Grahm about my routes at Shuteye, I'll let you know that they've been right there when I was bolting and that Grahm is now continuing the development at Shangri La. You seem to feel OK about their bolting and opinions; as far as I know they're on board with all that I've done there.
I might add also that the three of us (and others) spent quite a bit of time this last season blocking and erasing splinter trails and better delineating and marking the primary access trails to the different formations. On a similar note the few main trouble spots on the road to the first climbers' camp saw stabilization and rock removal to allow for safer travel by non-4x4 vehicles. You see only what you consider "grid bolting," please don't ignore the dozens of hours spent on other activities in the area.
- Louie
p.s. You made a comparison to the Holcomb Valley Pinnacles. I'm not sure if you realize or not, but I've never placed a single bolt there. Whatever you saw that you didn't like was done by the hands of others.
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fungusamungus
Nov 14, 2005, 3:45 AM
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Whoa! I don't know what you got from my posting but it seems that you think that I'm directing my comments to you. I saw what you, Grahm, and Matt did up there. Pretty nice. And for what it's worth, I have talked to Matt and Grahm about your routes. Unwad the panties! I was only refering to the crap I have seen at long established places. I mentioned this on Summitpost.org too. And I'm not afraid to let everyone know what a f*cked up thing Spencer did to Tollhouse years ago. Seems to be taboo in a few circles. Shuteye is it's own unique setting and style....I like it. It's the next "multi-pitch" sport climbing area. That's not sarcasm.
I too worked on the trail with Matt back in August....ask him! From the creek and up to Grey Eagle, it's well marked. It ends right up to Captain Obvious. I'm glad I could contribute before moving south to Temecula.
As for the reference to Holcomb Valley, I was basically saying it has it's style and Shuteye has it's own. Never mentioned you made your mark there. Public forum or not, I'm not out to bash you. Sheeesh! Settle down.
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socalbolter
Nov 14, 2005, 4:00 AM
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Perhaps you should reread your post as well. I just read it again and got the same feeling I did when first reading it. I'm sure you may have had a certain idea of the affect your words would have when you typed them and perhaps that is different from what someone else gets when reading the post, but the implications are there all the same.
My response was typed right after I read your post, so the reaction is in line with what I felt upon reading your comments. If something was (or wasn't) intended to be conveyed with your words - so be it, but not knowing you and never having had any other contact with you I can only go on the impression I get from your post. That's what I did.
Shuteye is a special place and I'm glad that you're doing your part to help improve the place. Others should as well.
Your explanation of your post is appreciated, but like I said - please reread it. If your explanation is what you intended to portray with the original post you didn't do a very good job of it and left a lot of room for (incorrect) interpretation.
- Louie
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serenityascents
Nov 23, 2005, 6:54 AM
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good discussion guys.
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fungusamungus
Nov 14, 2007, 5:55 PM
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socalbolter wrote: No offense taken Karen. The original boltings ethics were those embraced in the 60's and 70's. After that the general area became somewhat of a ghost town until climbers began visiting again in the late 80's and into the 90's. These "modern" climbers bolted both on the lead and on rappel, with the resulting routes having far more bolts, and closer together bolts than those found on the older routes. Jump forward to the mid to late 90's. Yet another group of "locals" begin climbing in the area. These climbers adopt more of a sport climbing approach to route development. Their routes on Electric Eagle Dome (aka: Gold Eagle Dome), High Eagle Dome, The Aerie and elsewhere resemble the routes that you would see at any modern sport crag. Leap forward a few more years to the routes that I and others have added in the last few years. We've continued the sport climbing development and our bolt spacing is on par with what's been done there over the last 15 years. We have selected the walls that appeal more to sport climbing than other styles of climbing (steep, featured walls with no naturally-protected options) and these are the walls that have seen our activity. There are still plenty of formations out there that appeal to other climbing and protection styles, whether that be long cracks or knobby faces where knob tie-offs provide the protection. In the recent magazine article, the authors chose to provide only half the story (the half that supported the OK for public consumption story of the area) where they described long runouts, bushwack approaches, bad roads, etc. If you're looking for that you can find it there, but it's not all the way they described it.
Lest you leave out the chipping evidence found on Shangri-La and Chiquito! Who might that be?
Bad form and very irresponsible! Not what any of the community wants on these formations.
WEAK SAUCE!!
(This post was edited by fungusamungus on Nov 14, 2007, 5:57 PM)
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socalbolter
Nov 14, 2007, 8:28 PM
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Without knowing which routes you're referring to or what kind of evidence you think you've found, it's kind of hard to respond to your question.
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grayhghost
Nov 14, 2007, 8:40 PM
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Simple question: Have you ever modified holds at Shuteye? If yes, explain in what way.
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fungusamungus
Nov 14, 2007, 10:14 PM
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Grayghost knows the deal! A host of others have been discovering the atrocities up there and the word is getting out. The names of the guilty are being withheld for now because they are given a chance to answer up on their own. But the facts are there. Confession time....
Yep.....a simple question was put out.
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socalbolter
Nov 14, 2007, 10:56 PM
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Yes, I have modified holds at Shuteye.
Primarily by means of dragging my hammer back and forth across sharp crimps and the edges of sharp flakes.
I've also used the pick end of my hammer to knock flat the teeth inside some pockets and seams.
Neither of these actions would I consider as chipping, and both of them I have seen evidence of on many of the old and newer routes on the different crags in Shuteye.
There have been a few holds that I have made more positive there: One hold on Gold Standard on Chiquito Dome, one hold on The Land of Milk and Honey on Shangri La, a crimp on Paradise Lost on Shangri La, and a handful of crimps on Tranquility on High Eagle Dome.
As an aside, the hold on The Land of Milk and Honey was filled in with epoxy and camouflaged (by me) this last weekend when I was up there. There was an alternate way to do the sequence on that route and I regretted having modified the hold. As a result I decided to fill it in.
Other than that, my routes there do not have chipped holds. I readily admit what I've done there (in this thread and before) and am not trying to hide anything at all.
I can fill you in on the thought process behind the decision to do what I did there, but I have a feeling that you don't really care. In a nutshell, I would rather have a 100-200 foot pitch of a fairly consistent difficulty than have the same route with one move that is 4 or more grades harder than the rest of the climbing.
Of the 20 or so routes that I've added there, the list above is the sum total of the chipping I've performed at Shuteye. Anything else you've seen was either done after my ascent or is found on routes that I did not bolt.
- Louie
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grayhghost
Nov 14, 2007, 11:14 PM
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cool, thanks for taking the time to fill us and the community in on your actions at shuteye
do you think the modifying of holds for consistency meshes with shuteye's local ethic?
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socalbolter
Nov 14, 2007, 11:23 PM
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I've seen some questionable holds on other routes there (both old and new), so it's hard to say for sure. I don't know enough of the true locals up there to have an understanding of the consensus of their wishes for the area. I've tried to find out who they are and get to know them, but as you know if you've been there - you rarely see anyone else.
There has been a degree of regret in my mind over what I have already done there, which led to my filling in the hold on The Land of Milk and Honey.
I plan to continue climbing in Shuteye, and will probably continue to add routes here and there. Given the reactions voiced on chipping and route density in this thread, I would certainly consider these opinions when deciding on future actions.
Community consensus is a big thing for me. The routes that I have already modified I truly feel are better routes than they would have been without my actions, but if what I've done there is not the acceptable option in most locals minds - I won't do it anymore. That's an easy decision for me.
edit = spelling
(This post was edited by socalbolter on Nov 14, 2007, 11:31 PM)
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slablizard
Nov 14, 2007, 11:55 PM
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I had the pleasure to climb those routes, first time at Chiquito Dome, last time at Little Shuteye...I was with Grahm...That place is magic and the routes are fantastic...keep up the good work!
I TRd the high 12s at chiquito (they were still projects back then) and the STELLAR 10b second pitches...I did the trad sling protected ones at little Shuteye and an 11d on a yellow overhanging face to the right...
I just wish I was closer to Shuteye.
Again, thanks for all the hard work up there guys.
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fungusamungus
Nov 15, 2007, 12:19 AM
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I agree, to some degree, that hard work has been put in at Shuteye and a great deal of dedication has been put forth to have a place somwhat out of the beaten path for the enjoyment of all. However, I'm not excited about chipping or modification of holds. Testing them on the FA (ie friable and weak holds) isn't an issue. But to modifythem to make them more comfortable and allow passage to the next move.....BAD JUJU! It doesn't matter what level one climbs, we should be setting an example to the gererations to come that this is unacceptable. What next? Bolted plastic holds?
I appreaciate your honesty Louie and I think its admirable that you explained things openly. We all want the best for Shuteye and the wonderful climbing it offers.
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socalbolter
Nov 15, 2007, 12:43 AM
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fungusamungus wrote: We all want the best for Shuteye and the wonderful climbing it offers.
I agree completely.
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alter_nate
Nov 19, 2007, 8:30 PM
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Although I cannot possibly speak for the Shuteye climbing community as a whole, this much I can surmise:
It goes without saying that the Sierra, especially Yosemite, has been somewhat of a bastion of traditional climbing ethics. We are blessed with tons of bullet proof granite with marvelous natural features. Almost all of the individuals who have contributed routes at Shuteye over many years, whether local or not, have contributed routes elsewhere in the Sierra and the Valley.
Now, even though top down sport routes have loosely been accepted on suitable walls at Shuteye, those who put them up are, by and large, still rooted in Sierra traditionalism. This means, in my opinion, that the rock dictates the climb and not the other way 'round. Thus, irregardless of the grade of the climb, chipping, hold enhancement, and bolting next to cracks and slingable knobs and plates, is unacceptable. Hearing of these acts saddens me. Others - who have recently climbed chipped routes - are incensed.
(This post was edited by alter_nate on Nov 20, 2007, 1:05 AM)
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papa_eos
Nov 20, 2007, 4:57 AM
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alter_nate wrote: This means, in my opinion, that the rock dictates the climb and not the other way 'round. Thus, irregardless of the grade of the climb, chipping, hold enhancement, and bolting next to cracks and slingable knobs and plates, is unacceptable. Hearing of these acts saddens me. Others - who have recently climbed chipped routes - are incensed.
This is definitely hitting the nail on the head in terms of what is going on, not necessarily here only, but the future of climbing is going to come to this. Rap bolted sport climbs will become the norm in "traditional areas".
Ground up FA's will definitely become old school and dated unless this style of route development in traditional areas is stopped. But we all know that it can't be stopped, only slowed down.
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