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rgbscan
Jan 1, 2006, 1:16 AM
Post #51 of 86
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In reply to: In reply to: It's amazing to see all these responses from a bunch of assclowns who have no idea what they're talking about. The staff at VE is some of the most well trained in the country. No other gym that I have been to has anywhere close to the program in place to train the staff. This is for everything from top rope checks to teaching lead classes. If you think this has anything to do with faulty teaching or a staff member that doesn't know what they're doing then you're just dumb. VE in Chicago is within a Lifetime Fitness. 90% of the members at Lifetime are a bunch of whiney b---- who think they're entitled to everything and that the world revolves around them. So it's a fairly safe bet that this joker just waltzed right in and thought he could just clip in and start climbing. If you wrote that you work at a gym and that could never happen then you're naive. Unless of course your gym is the size of a closet. :roll: Worthless. In reply to: The staff at VE is some of the most well trained in the country. No other gym that I have been to has anywhere close to the program in place to train the staff. This is for everything from top rope checks to teaching lead classes. If you think this has anything to do with faulty teaching or a staff member that doesn't know what they're doing then you're just dumb. You can't be serious. Doesn't have anything to do with a staff member not paying attention? Are you joking!?!? If any staff lets someone in, lets them put on their harness, and clip in with their harness on backwards and climb...they're incompetent. So you wanna convince all of us that a gym that can't control who gets in and who climbs there is the best in the world? :lol: :lol: :lol: And they use an autobelay sytem? For their "top notch" instruction? The guy hit a floor from 5 feet up and hurt himself? So you've got inattentive staff, on a autobelay setup, over a hard floor? And you think they're "top notch"? Sounds like the worst gym I've heard of, yet. In reply to: If you wrote that you work at a gym and that could never happen then you're naive. If your doing your job, this guy shouldn't have gotten through the door, got his harness on, then allowed to climb without someone stepping in and saying something. I stopped plenty of people about to do dumb things before they happened (harnesses not double backed, biners not locked, clipped in through a gear loop) and I've been doing it for 4 years now. And no, that wouldn't have happened in any gym I work at. Policies must not have been explained, he was never checked out, and no one took a second look at him. The gym is at fault, and they know it. Jim
VE has autobelays, tr's, and bolted sport routes scattered throughout the gym. As stated above (twice) all new climbers to the facility take an orientation on the autobelay setup. They are show how to clip in, are shown what they can and cannot climb, do a sample climb, and take a fall then sign off that they understand. Just about every autobelay route also has a photo and printed description on how to clip in at the base along with the route grade. They cannot use anything *but* the autobelay's until they have tested out to TR and then tested again to lead.
At the very minimum the victim of this accident was given instruction on how to properly use the autobelay system, otherwise they would not have been admitted into the facility. Its a good bet they were also on a climb where a photo was provided on how to properly clip in, the harness that was brought in from the outside probably also included documentation on how to properly tie in.
As also stated above the gym floor is 9-12 inches of chipped rubber covering the floor. The bouldering caves have 6 inch thick foam padding as flooring, and you use a standard crash pad on top of that.
With a large number of people in the gym, theres never going to be a 1:1 ratio of staff to climbers. It's a gym, not a babysitting service.
Chris
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boardline22
Jan 1, 2006, 7:12 AM
Post #52 of 86
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the guy fell at least 35-40 feet i heard, i just saw the last 5 feet of the fall
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jimdavis
Jan 1, 2006, 7:23 AM
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In reply to: And where has anyone said that the staff knowingly let this guy in? Or trained him on how to use the autobelay?
Your missing the point here...the guy got in! So either the staff let him or didn't do their friggin' job and he got in anyway....either way it, it's the staff's problem now.
In reply to: Overall, if you are blindly criticizing the gym and making assumptions about the equipment, training or facility, you're simply showing your ass and how little you really know about the climbing industry. Just so you know, the gentleman who owns VE is responsible for a majority of the safety procedures and guidelines that are standard accross the climbing gym industry. He also was fundamental in setting standards for climbing wall construction in regards to engineering, materials, workmanship and safety.
You can think whatever you like about my knowledge of the industry. I can bet I know quite a bit more than you think, though.
So why don't you tell us who this owner was, and what he's setup in the indoor-climbing industry? Go ahead. Enlighten us.
I can tell you my gym was setup by Jon Tierney. Former Technical Review member of the AMGA, author of the AMGA TRSM course, and the guy who brought the place up to AMGA accreditation. Wanna guess how many programs and gym get through that process? Good luck trying to tell me that VE's "procedures and guidelines" are better, or whatever your trying to convince us all of.
I could really care less who owns the gym, or set it up. The guys working the gym fucked up and didn't do their job. They should have stopped him long before he made it off the ground.
In reply to: Also, the original poster mentioned that by the time he looked over the guy was only five feet off the ground. However it's been mentioned that he feel from much higher up.
So someone saw the guy climbing with his harness on backwards, clipped into his gear loop... and didn't do shit about it? Is that what your saying then.
As for my reading comprehension...I scanned the first post, saw enough to make my decision, and posted accordingly.
Multiple things went wrong, and the workers of the gym could have prevented this from happening. Thus the gym is at fault, and they know it...you can bet they'll change their policies and possibly staff as a result of this incident. Whether they are held responsible in court...who knows.
If some guy walks up your front steps, falls, and can sue you for injuries from the fall....yea, this guy can take the gym to the cleaners.
Jim
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jimdavis
Jan 1, 2006, 7:36 AM
Post #54 of 86
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In reply to: At the very minimum the victim of this accident was given instruction on how to properly use the autobelay system, otherwise they would not have been admitted into the facility. Its a good bet they were also on a climb where a photo was provided on how to properly clip in, the harness that was brought in from the outside probably also included documentation on how to properly tie in.
So the gym approved some guy to climb in their gym, who couldn't put their own harness on correctly, and who didn't have to get checked out by staff before he started climbing? They knew he was in there, and didn't check him out? Sounds like they have some GREAT policies!
In reply to: With a large number of people in the gym, theres never going to be a 1:1 ratio of staff to climbers. It's a gym, not a babysitting service.
You don't need a 1:1 ratio. Considering that climbers climb in pairs, direct supervision over belays would be 1:2. AND lets not forget that you can check over climbers pretty quickly when you know what your doing. It takes me less than 5 seconds to check over a pair of climbers on each rope. Some times people might get off the ground before you can visually check them over, before each climb...but they never get above bouldering height without a visual check from myself and usually another staff person.
Jim
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jimdavis
Jan 1, 2006, 7:38 AM
Post #55 of 86
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In reply to: In reply to: It’s the fast food restaurant’s fault because I’m too fat. This has been argued in court. As of yet, the plantiff hasn't won. Yet. In reply to: The bar is responsible for my DUI because they served me. This has been argued... and WON... in court. Worse, there have been cases where the patron got smashed at one bar, went to another bar and had one drink, then got the DUI. The second bar was liable, and paid a ton of money. In reply to: The bicycle helmet manufacturer is responsible for my head injury because I didn’t put it on. If you change this to "because they didn't instruct me on how to properly apply the helmet," then you've got a good case. If you don't want to accept that the gym has a measure of culpability, that's your lookout. But they do have a duty, and from what I've read, it sounds like they failed in that duty.
Agreed! Thanks Reno!
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organic
Jan 1, 2006, 2:06 PM
Post #56 of 86
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In reply to: What a f---ing loser. Now we'll all probably have to go through a safety class so the staff can make sure we all know how to put our harnesses on correctly. They just instituted a rule that we (guys) have to wear our shirts all the time. Evidently some feminazi b---- got jealous and complained. Although I liked the no-topropes in the area around the bouldering cave. It kept away all the little kids and forced me to climb harder. ...Especially when I wasn't wearing a shirt. oh well, what can you do. Have to climb somewhere in the winter. Btw- any idea what happend to this guy. I wasn't there that night. How the hell do you put your harness on backwards!??!
People like you are so funny. "I climb 5.9 and have a tummy and it is 60 degrees in this mofo and 30 degrees outside but for some reason i need to take off my shirt."
The reason they probably instated the keep your shirt on rule besides ya'll being so fugly is because ya'll probably stink also.
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alanthong
Jan 1, 2006, 7:40 PM
Post #57 of 86
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I regularly climb at this VE location and have mixed opinions on the safety procedures followed by the staff.
On one hand, even on very busy evenings or weekends at the gym, I haven't been given a wristband to indicate that I've paid the entrance fee and have a waiver on file. Even though the front desk is right by the entrance, I've noticed how easy it would be for me to not pay and or check in at certain times. If they can't enforce entrance to the gym effectively, how can they check if harnesses are on correctly?
Belay and Sport Lead "Certifications" are denoted with tags attached to harnesses, but for a over a year, I belayed without displaying such a tag and was never questioned by the staff. Perhaps bringing your own gear makes you appear to be competent as in he case of this accident.
On the other hand, I have to stick up for the staff there. At times, the gym can be very busy, and when I have brought other newbie climbers to the gym, I've been impressed with the consistency and quality of instruction for the auto belays and top rope systems.
This is a large gym and the whole climbing area cannot be constantly patrolled by the staff. Climbers should not have to have their harnesses checked by a staff member every time they climb. If climbers don't practice and maintain their BASIC skills, it's their OWN fault when they hurt themselves.
Anyways, I hate to see this kind of accident happen at one of the largest and best climbing gyms in the area...one that's largely devoid of outdoor climbing.
Oh and not that this is a solution, but I personally use a Metolius Safe Tech Harnesses which has rated gear loops (http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/harnesses.htm). Most accidents...esp. outside of the gym involve a cascade of failures that can be stopped at any number of points...including making equipment idiot proof at a relatively marginal cost.
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escalabrasil
Jan 1, 2006, 8:01 PM
Post #58 of 86
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I used to work at a gym in Houston, TX, which was abviously oriented toward the more inexperienced, birthday party crowd (seeing as it was in Houston, TX). People had to fill out a waiver, which most of them didnt bother to look at, and then each person had to successfully belay another climber up and down before they were allowed to do it on their own, and even then, the staff constantly walked up and down the gym, making sure everyone was doing it correctly.
Interestingly enough, we ended up getting some of the most pissed off customers ever because of this. These people were so obnoxious that they felt like that much supervision was a waste of time and an attack on their intelligence, or whatever. We always had to find the right balance between making sure they were safe and not offending them because they were stupid, or just too uncoordinated to learn how to belay first try.
Anyway, I had a point when I satrted writing this, but now Im just getting angry at all those people again, so I guess thats all.....
Just dont blame the staff without knowing all the facts. Gyms are a weird business...
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majid_sabet
Jan 2, 2006, 12:31 AM
Post #59 of 86
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Let me refresh your momories
read all 5 parts.
http://outside.away.com/outside/news/200207/200207_warning_1.adp
BEFORE HE STRAPPED ON HIS crampons, Pete Ro signed two liability waivers releasing Jeff Lowe and San Juan Mountain Guides from responsibility if he were injured or killed during the seminar. How, then, can his widow sue? Because as powerful as they are, liability waivers cannot (and should not) prevent people from seeking relief when their guides have behaved with gross negligence, which the law defines as "willful and wanton" actions that indicate a high degree of recklessness.
Gross negligence is a pretty high bar to clear, so the first move by Ro's lawyer has been to try to get the liability waivers thrown out of court, in which case he'll only have to prove that Lowe acted with simple negligence—that is, the failure to use ordinary care. (If negligence is overlooking a client's frayed harness, gross negligence is getting drunk and waving a loaded .44 around the campfire.) To do that, he'll likely take direct aim at the very nature of release forms.
These forms were generally toothless until the early 1980s, when the words "fully cognizant" turned things around. The more a client knew about the dangers he faced going in, the better the release fared in court. "I get awful picky when I draw up releases," says Jim McCarthy, 69, a Wyoming attorney and former president of the American Alpine Club who often represents guides and guide services. "I want clients to initial the four or five key paragraphs so later when they say, 'Oh, they stuck the form under my nose but I didn't read it,' you've got their initials there in six different places."
Did Pete Ro correctly sign his release? Jeff Lowe's attorney, Denver lawyer Monty Barnett, thinks so. Ro signed the first release two months before the seminar and the second the day before he died. (On Barnett's advice, Lowe declined to comment for this article.) Hiroko Ro's attorney, San Francisco lawyer Walter Walker, disagrees. In pretrial documents, Walker describes the two releases as "a mishmash of exonerations that are clear to no one" and claims that Ro signed the second release under duress. Since he had spent a lot of money and time to get to the ice-climbing school, the argument goes, he basically had to sign whatever was put in front of him to experience his vacation.
"San Juan Mountain Guides [had] Mr. Ro in a box when he arrived in Ouray," Walker argues in court papers. "Where else was he, a resident of Japan, going to go? How was he going to find another masters seminar?"
If the release holds, Walker will be forced to press on with the difficult task of proving that Lowe—one of the world's most respected ice-climbers—behaved with gross negligence. He claims that Lowe crossed this line when he assumed the role of go-between for Ro and Lucy Creamer. The reason? Lowe's bronchitis impeded his ability to help when he saw trouble. "Lowe knowingly and voluntarily chose to take on this safety role in his incapacitated condition," asserts Walker. This decision, he claims, constitutes "willful and wanton negligence."
Barnett scoffs at this argument. "The allegation about Jeff Lowe's voice is a red herring," he counters. "That had nothing to do with the accident, period. There is absolutely no negligence, even if we didn't have a release."
Lowe, however, may also be a victim of bad timing. In recent years two equal and opposing ideas have percolated through separate state court systems. One—call it the Wyoming Principle, after the state whose judges have upheld it—holds that instructor misjudgment is part of the inherent risk of any outdoor activity. The other—call it the California Principle, because it's gathering steam in that trend-setting state—maintains that an instructor bears a heightened duty to protect his students from harm. Those ideas came into direct conflict the moment Pete Ro died.
Reb Gregg, who is not involved in the Ro lawsuit but represents clients who might be affected by it, champions the Wyoming Principle. "We're arguing for cutting the instructor a little slack," says Gregg. "One of the toughest concepts for people to get their arms around is the difficulty of making just the right decision in a wilderness environment. A jury will inevitably search for the right response. But there's a gap between the drop-dead right answer and a reasonable answer. What I'm saying is that a decision may ultimately prove to be wrong, but that doesn't mean it was unreasonable. And being wrong is not the same as being careless or negligent."
Still, recent liability cases in California have established that a coach or instructor may have a heightened responsibility when it comes to risk. In one case, a high school swimmer who was paralyzed when he followed his coach's instructions to dive into the shallow end of a pool won $11.5 million from the school district.
"A coach has a heightened responsibility when it comes to those risks," says Walker. "We feel that's the case with Jeff Lowe. If you enhance the natural risk of a physical activity, you can be responsible for that."
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majid_sabet
Jan 2, 2006, 12:44 AM
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Happy New Year to all.
This 5 part article, pretty old but involved a well know climber and his business instructing other climbers to learn his techniques etc, just read it.
http://outside.away.com/outside/news/200207/200207_warning_1.adp
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moss1956
Jan 2, 2006, 1:24 AM
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I was at VE earlier in the week. It was real busy and there were lots of people there who were unfamiliar with climbing. I had two people walk between me and the wall while I was belaying- and they got tangled in my rope.
Safe behavior is a culture. If you are surrounded by people who know what they are doing, they will call you on it when you are doing something egregiously unsafe. However, in the week between Christmas and New Years a lot of people go to they gym who have never been before. Even though the staff is doing the best they can, its just not as safe as when the majority of the people in the gym are old climbing wonks.
I would hope they don't get sued. Its a great place to go and get a good workout when its too cold or wet to climb outside, plus there is a gazillion-plex theater across Diehl road from them where I can see all the movies they won't show in Iowa.
VE is one of the two gyms that I will drive to in Illinois during inclement weather. The other is Upper Limits. Lets hope they both continue to thrive.
... and Majid, interesting story. I sure hope the jury in that torte case sees it the way I see it. I know climbing is dangerous, and I know I could get hurt really bad, but you know, I enjoy it so much that I am willing to tolerate the risk. I still make mistakes, and more dangerously I am willing to go out with beginners, so far God has looked out for this fool.
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fuzzymonkey
Jan 2, 2006, 4:00 AM
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I too used to climb at this VE outside Chicago. I haven't been in a while, and probably won't go back seeing as how I have moved to the East Coast.
I was a regular at VE at least twice, sometimes three times a week, driving 40 miles one way. Anywho, I will say the staff is competent, well trained and knowledgeable. Most climb ouside on their own, or lead VE travel groups and guides. I was shown how to use the auto belays my first trip a few years ago, but I also had my own harness and they explained to me how to use it (even though I told them I knew already) and it was fairly busy that evening (college night). Any climber who has never climbed at VE before must go through this orientation, experienced or not.
That being said, when there is 2 birthday parties going on, or maybe just a really busy weekend or evening, things can slip through the cracks - we're all human. And not everyone can be watched all the time. I do blame this a little on auto belays. I have the same feelings about them as I do GriGri's (as in prone to problems and not having anyone check you like your belayer, but that's another dead horse). Most of the fault lies with the climber, not the staff.
This guy could have been drunk, stoned or worse, or maybe a 5.12d traddy that just messed up once. Who are we to know unless we actually knew the person in the accident? Assuming this guy went through the proper training/orientation, signed the waver and was able, then it's his responsibility to climb properly. If he did just walk in and climb, and the staff didn't see him...well, isn't that like driving without drivers ed and a license?
As for the comment above about belaying without a "belay tag:" I too did that many many times, but when you check in the computer screen shows if you are belay certified or not. I'm not saying that they mentally keep track of who is and who isn't, but they do see that at time of check-in. And if you arn't, I believe they usually ask you if you want to become belay certified.
I'm sure the VE staff has been instructed not to respond to this thread which is why none of of them have spoken up. I hope this guy is ok, but more importantly, I hope he leared his lesson and us too: look out for you fellow climber.
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chitowngirl
Jan 2, 2006, 4:54 AM
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I am amazed at all of you folks chiming in blaming the staff at VE, when you've never been to the gym, don't know the people involved and weren't there when it happened. Rather silly, I think, to have an opinion, then.
I am a regular at VE. Their safety procedues have been already stated, but I'll say it again, since some people seem unable or unwilling to comprehend it. You may not use the auto-belays at the gym unless you have signed a waiver and gone through a safety demonstration. You can not climb there unless checked out by staff. You can not TR unless you pass a belay test, and you can not lead unless you pass a lead test. The ground is not hard.
But it is a big gym and often very crowded, especially during the holidays. It's impossible for the staff to check every person before they go up on every route every time. The VE staff is knowldgeable, well-trained and I think they do a good job. I also learned who was working that day, and they are far from incompetant, and anyone who says so is an idiot. Take my word for it (although I'm sure many of you won't).
I generally find this whole culture of 'my mistakes are somebody else's fault' very disturbing. People should take responsibility for their actions and face the consequences. Every mistake is a lesson learned. Of course, too many people think now that every mistake made is a potential lawsuit. Sad.
and csgambill... I'm on your side on this. Men should always climb shirtless. This would make my time belaying a great deal more interesting. And if it was indeed some woman who complained about it - I agree! Feminazi bitch! Ruined it for all of us...
Perhaps I will lead a protest my climbing in my bra this week...
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mn_tom
Jan 2, 2006, 5:33 AM
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I climb at the VE in Saint Paul with some regularity and I have gone through the orientation and signed the waivers just the same as everyone else who climbs there.
Here is a link to said waiver.
http://www.verticalendeavors.com/...rrenville-waiver.pdf
For those of you that don't care to read the whole thing, I'll summarize.
The climber freely and voluntarily assumes all risks associated with climbing. These risks include but are not limited to slips, trips and falls, and failure of any climbing equipment, including harnesses, anchors, holds, etc.
VE would not be responsible even if it were their own harness.
The waiver also states that it is the climbers responsibility to double check their own tie in while using the auto-belay.
The victim made a mistake and it was only his mistake. Let's all hope that he learned from it, and let this finger-pointing thread die.
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mowz
Jan 2, 2006, 6:48 AM
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I cannot believe this thread is still around.
Is it possible to killfile a thread?
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jimdavis
Jan 2, 2006, 7:30 AM
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I agree with you all from a climbers' POV that this guy is to blame, but from a business and liability standpoint, the gym f'ed up!
They had him sign a waiver. Good, now they have a CHANCE in court. Ask any guide, or owner of a guide service how much faith they have in waivers. They'll all tell you any good lawyer can get passed them, no matter how well they're written.
You all say the gym was too crowded to allow staff to check everyone....to that I say: there should have been more staffing then.
Is this guy responsible for his actions? Yeah, he f'ed up. But can he go after the gym in court...yeah, and he could probably win.
I really fail to see how someone who was trained in how to put on a harness and use an autobelay... put his harness on backwards and clipped into a gear loop. No-one I know, is quite that stupid. And if they did "certify him" to use this auto-belay, and the guy did this...then there's something wrong with their certification process.
You say the gym is crowded....yet NO-ONE in this crowded gym, stepped in and said anything; while you all say how everyone who belays at the gym gets checked out, and is thus another pair of eyes for staff, and non of them said anything.
Whether the staff was over-run with customers and didn't have time to check this guy over, despite the fact that he probably fumbed with his harness for a while, then climbed up quite a bit with no-one noticing him with his harness on incorrecty; OR they didn't enforce their security procedures, and this guy got in without them knowing....they can be held responsible (to some extent).
In a gym so crowded that the staff can't check over all of the climbers....how did this guy get his harness on, ass-backwards, without any other climbers who knows how a harness goes on, not notice???
I can't argue that the staff were inexperienced, or that the gym sucks, or that the climber involved was drunk (which the staff should have picked up on when he walked in) or whatever.
But the point remains: the gym could have taken measures to ensure that this wouldn't have happened...and if his lawyer can prove that such steps would have been reasonable... thats about all this guy needs to win in court.
I hope the guy doesn't sue too...but I hope the gym toughens up their policies a little.
Someone mentioned people not liking being supervised while they climb...
One day at the crag, I saw a guy hangdogging a sport route, with a woman belaying him on a grigri. When i looked over, i saw the gate open on the locker. The belayer never locked the gate, and while this guy was hanging on the rope, and she had the rope locked off....her arm pushed the gate on the biner open...almost all the way.
I stepped up and politly said "i dunno if you intended for it, but your belay biner there is open" She moved her arm to look at it, the gate clossed...she looked at me like I was a jerk....said "What are you talking about?" I said "well your biner there, is unlocked" she noticed, shrugged at me, locked it, and never said another word....like I was the idiot cause I was a "5.8" climber telling this "5.13" climber what to do.
I was the WFR, and didn't feel like having to carry that guy out, so I said something....only to get treated like shit for doing so. If she doesn't understand my reasons for saying something, she can kiss my ass.
In a gym, where your not only protecting climbers from injury, but your gym from lawsuits...its your duty to say something, and check climbers over. Its your place, they can leave if they don't like it. If people meet you with aggression for making sure they'll be safe...who cares if they don't come back? Every experienced climber I know respects each other for pointing out other's mistakes; it lets them know we care about each other.
Besides the nature of safety checks making sure others will be safe, they protect your business as well.
I imagine the responce I'll get to this is: if you scare away climbers by having policies they don't like...you'll loose visits and hurt your bottom line. Well, you'll still be a hell-of-a-lot better off loosing a few visits, than letting every obnoxious idiot climb at your gym, then sue you for all your worth.
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jimdavis
Jan 2, 2006, 7:30 AM
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I agree with you all from a climbers' POV that this guy is to blame, but from a business and liability standpoint, the gym f'ed up!
They had him sign a waiver. Good, now they have a CHANCE in court. Ask any guide, or owner of a guide service how much faith they have in waivers. They'll all tell you any good lawyer can get passed them, no matter how well they're written.
You all say the gym was too crowded to allow staff to check everyone....to that I say: there should have been more staffing then.
Is this guy responsible for his actions? Yeah, he f'ed up. But can he go after the gym in court...yeah, and he could probably win.
I really fail to see how someone who was trained in how to put on a harness and use an autobelay... put his harness on backwards and clipped into a gear loop. No-one I know, is quite that stupid. And if they did "certify him" to use this auto-belay, and the guy did this...then there's something wrong with their certification process.
You say the gym is crowded....yet NO-ONE in this crowded gym, stepped in and said anything; while you all say how everyone who belays at the gym gets checked out, and is thus another pair of eyes for staff, and non of them said anything.
Whether the staff was over-run with customers and didn't have time to check this guy over, despite the fact that he probably fumbed with his harness for a while, then climbed up quite a bit with no-one noticing him with his harness on incorrecty; OR they didn't enforce their security procedures, and this guy got in without them knowing....they can be held responsible (to some extent).
In a gym so crowded that the staff can't check over all of the climbers....how did this guy get his harness on, ass-backwards, without any other climbers who knows how a harness goes on, not notice???
I can't argue that the staff were inexperienced, or that the gym sucks, or that the climber involved was drunk (which the staff should have picked up on when he walked in) or whatever.
But the point remains: the gym could have taken measures to ensure that this wouldn't have happened...and if his lawyer can prove that such steps would have been reasonable... thats about all this guy needs to win in court.
I hope the guy doesn't sue too...but I hope the gym toughens up their policies a little.
Someone mentioned people not liking being supervised while they climb...
One day at the crag, I saw a guy hangdogging a sport route, with a woman belaying him on a grigri. When i looked over, i saw the gate open on the locker. The belayer never locked the gate, and while this guy was hanging on the rope, and she had the rope locked off....her arm pushed the gate on the biner open...almost all the way.
I stepped up and politly said "i dunno if you intended for it, but your belay biner there is open" She moved her arm to look at it, the gate clossed...she looked at me like I was a jerk....said "What are you talking about?" I said "well your biner there, is unlocked" she noticed, shrugged at me, locked it, and never said another word....like I was the idiot cause I was a "5.8" climber telling this "5.13" climber what to do.
I was the WFR, and didn't feel like having to carry that guy out, so I said something....only to get treated like shit for doing so. If she doesn't understand my reasons for saying something, she can kiss my ass.
In a gym, where your not only protecting climbers from injury, but your gym from lawsuits...its your duty to say something, and check climbers over. Its your place, they can leave if they don't like it. If people meet you with aggression for making sure they'll be safe...who cares if they don't come back? Every experienced climber I know respects each other for pointing out other's mistakes; it lets them know we care about each other.
Besides the nature of safety checks making sure others will be safe, they protect your business as well.
I imagine the responce I'll get to this is: if you scare away climbers by having policies they don't like...you'll loose visits and hurt your bottom line. Well, you'll still be a hell-of-a-lot better off loosing a few visits, than letting every obnoxious idiot climb at your gym, then sue you for all your worth.
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gonz
Jan 2, 2006, 3:02 PM
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Just a note regarding "certifications".
When you check out to belay at a gym, or lead belay, or lead climb, or use an auto-belay, you are not getting certified. You are not getting a certificate that says you have passed some almighty examination and we as a gym have now declared you to be a safe and competent (insert skill here) no matter where you go.
A certification is backed by a recognized agency, for example AMGA. If you pass an AMGA course, then you can say you are certified to do whatever that course taught you. If you pass a belay test at my gym, then go outside and get hurt, don't think for second that you can say that I certified you as a belayer and now I'm liable.
All you have done in a gym once you pass said test is get "checked out". Nothing more. All that gym has said is that you meet the basic qualifications to use that skill unsupervised within their facility.
And it also doesn't mean you can show up at some other gym halfway across the country and tell them that you are certified to belay at Gym X, so you shouldn't have to take their test.
Those of you who work at gyms please remember this and try to not encourage the words "Congrats, you're now certified to belay!".
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mowz
Jan 2, 2006, 7:18 PM
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Hey! Mods!!! Can we lock this thread? The cirlcle of banter will just continue and I see no end.
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reno
Jan 2, 2006, 7:24 PM
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In reply to: Hey! Mods!!! Can we lock this thread? The cirlcle of banter will just continue and I see no end.
It's really not our position to decide when "enough is enough." The thread will die it's own death in due time, once everyone has decided they've had enough.
Setting limits on how long we can discuss any given topic isn't really a habit we want to promote. Yes, it does happen from time to time, but those are rare. I don't think this one is there yet.
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gonz
Jan 2, 2006, 7:33 PM
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In reply to: Hey! Mods!!! Can we lock this thread? The cirlcle of banter will just continue and I see no end.
That's a good job at post padding sir! What do you care?
Mild flaming aside, this thread is well within control, and folks who are engaged in this "cirlcle of banter" have not gotten downright nasty or threatening yet.
If you are done with this thread, then don't come back to read anymore. Otherwise let us play our silly little game here :lol:
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jimdavis
Jan 2, 2006, 9:59 PM
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In reply to: Just a note regarding "certifications". All you have done in a gym once you pass said test is get "checked out". Nothing more. All that gym has said is that you meet the basic qualifications to use that skill unsupervised within their facility.
Did you think I was saying different? The point I was making is, if the gym knew of this guys enterance and showed him the safety procedures that others are talking about... the gym approved the guy to "use that skill unsupervised within their facility" when the guy obviously had no idea what he was doing.
It defeats the point of approving people, if you approve the wrong people...doesn't it?
Cheers,
Jim
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gonz
Jan 3, 2006, 12:17 AM
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Sorry Jim, I was not referring to you in particular. I was talking about all of us in general, since in the Gym climbing section of the board as well as this thread I've seen the term "Certified to belay" several times, and it's unsettling from a liability standpoint.
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powair
Jan 3, 2006, 1:53 AM
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VE does floor checks once every 10 minutes or so and there is usually someone on staff (not working) down climbing anyway ...I know i've stepped up and helped kids on auto belays clipped in wrong. I know most of the staff and it isnt fair to blame them in anyway. I think VE does a great job of keeping things safe for everyone. I wasnt there that night and havent had a chance to ask anyone about it...but i will when i get back down there... Anyway, the guy messed up...its happens i guess....
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boardline22
Jan 3, 2006, 2:23 AM
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Registered: Feb 18, 2005
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everyone brought up good points and I did not know this thread was going to go on so long
also where can you get officailly certified to belay and lead climb?
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