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climb_ian
Jan 3, 2006, 6:51 PM
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and to think i just bought the orange one s---! :roll:
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edge
Jan 3, 2006, 6:52 PM
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Tradgirl, you are right about the posting dates for this particular thread, but did you read all four pages?
The link I provided to a similar topic on SuperTopo is dated early October, and the company was made well aware of the problem then. They have had almost 3 months to respond.
Plus, the pic in this thread looks like a problem with the flexible stem being swaged to the head, which I believe has also been brought to their attention (I will hunt for it, but is probably listed in the related threads at the bottom of this page).
So, 1) ample notice of inferior swaging, and 2)innacurate milling of the cam. I personally think some sort of notice should be issued by the company.
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mistertyler
Jan 3, 2006, 7:06 PM
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Insainio: No part of my post was directed at you, whatsoever.
Loran: Sorry, I didn't get his name. The internet cafe I was in was shutting down for the night (I'm back at my hotel, now), and the prepaid internet access I bought literally had less than a minute left on it when I hurriedly finished up my brief conversation with the guy and then hung up.
It did take me several tries to get through to him (a fax machine picked up on my previous attempts), but he did answer the phone and I have gotten through to people there several times in the past.
My impressions from the brief conversation I had with him were that he's much more interested in *talking* with people who have questions, issues, etc. (and most specifically, the actual person who had the issue) over the phone rather than dealing with this online, and to a very large extent I don't blame him. I do think that a blanket post to the effect of "Hi. We're looking into this and will keep you informed as to what we find out..." would help to allay a lot of the back and forth gibberish that gets thrown around whenever something like this comes up, but that's about it.
Anyway, keep calling, Insainio; I'm sure you'll get through.
Let us know what you find out!
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bobruef
Jan 3, 2006, 7:06 PM
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In reply to: Tradgirl, you are right about the posting dates for this particular thread, but did you read all four pages? The link I provided to a similar topic on SuperTopo is dated early October, and the company was made well aware of the problem then. They have had almost 3 months to respond. Plus, the pic in this thread looks like a problem with the flexible stem being swaged to the head, which I believe has also been brought to their attention (I will hunt for it, but is probably listed in the related threads at the bottom of this page). So, 1) ample notice of inferior swaging, and 2)innacurate milling of the cam. I personally think some sort of notice should be issued by the company.
word
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tradgal
Jan 3, 2006, 7:17 PM
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I saw the super-topo thread. I see what you are saying, but these are two separate issues. Poor customer relations--sure, negligent???? Let's just wait and see...
From supertopo...
In reply to: thanks shack i called CCH and here is the scoop Appearently they had some new machinery and the axle hole was bored in the wrong location so there are definitly some bad aliens out there. Not sure how many or if it affects sizes other then orange. they said if I was not happy send it in and they will send out a good one. Great I'll do just that. CCH seemed to know of the problem. The arc of the expansion curve is at least 200% off from factory specs seems that could very well be a safety issue. These products need to go thru exact design enginerring and testing. I question CCH for not doing a product recall even if there was not a safety issue these cams dont meet their factory specs and i wonder if they have even tested these cams to failure to see how they hold up.IMO CCH needs to take this more seriously then just offering replacements to people that call them. If this had happened to BD i bet they would do a product recall. What do you all think?
I would be curious to see why REI issued a recall? Was it because of their own concerns or if CCH asked them to pull the products? Anyone know?
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tradgal
Jan 3, 2006, 7:22 PM
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I just called CCH and asked if they were aware of what happenned and what their plans of remedy or public awareness was...
Dave of CCH said that they were aware. They plan to make a statement later today. And they are looking into the situation. Impossible to know exactly what happened by only hearing stories or seeing pictures. But were looking into it as we spoke.
BTW, I dialed the phone number only once. They answered on third ring and were very nice.
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jsj42
Jan 3, 2006, 7:39 PM
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I can't comment on the mis-drilled axle issue or on the head popping off of the stem, but I would like to share my experience with customer service.
In late October I mailed in an Alien that needed trigger wire repair. I included my address and number as they requested, but never heard from them.
A phone call in early November confirmed that they had received the cam and were in the process of repairing it -- it would be sent back to me that week.
Two weeks went by (early December now) and hadn't received the Alien. Worried that it might have been lost in the mail, I placed a phone call. CCH informed me that the Alien was done but they hadn't sent it to me. I gave them my address a second time -- perhaps they didn't have it?
I should add that on several occasions I spoke to a woman at CCH who couldn't answer my questions but promised to pass my message on to someone who could. My calls were never returned however, every time I had to call back.
It's now early January. I called again today and was told that my Alien was still there, and ready to go. I mentioned that I thought I would have received it weeks ago and was surprised to still not have it. CCH confirmed my address a second time. I then asked if they had an estimate on WHEN it would be shipped. CCH told me that it would go out today - I guess we'll see!
I realize they have a small shop and a huge demand. I would understand if I had to wait months for something like this to be taken care of, but if it's going to take a long time, they should just say that up front. Furthermore, if someone says they'll call you back, they should do it.
Ironically, the cam I sent in was an orange alien :)
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billcoe_
Jan 3, 2006, 7:59 PM
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In reply to: This thread was posted YESTERDAY.... An email was sent by the person who owns the cam--LAST NIGHT!!! Are we forgetting that?
I'm not forgetting that I have 8 F*ing Alien offsets (that's eight) on the way to me right now (my Christmas gift to myself). Furthermore, if tomorrow we hear of a death due to another Orange Alien failure at the creek then I would have to say NO, today is not too late to hear something.
But thats me.
And I don't think I forget THAT either.
But thats me, your results may vary.
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tradgal
Jan 3, 2006, 8:23 PM
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I am not disagreeing that a statement should be released as soon as possible...that's why I called CCH--to ask!
But, I am realistic in what I am asking of a company whose reputation and customer's safety is on the line.
I wonder how many Ford SUV's rolled over before a recall was issued--Surely more than one. How many airbags didn't release on certain vehicles before a recall was issued. More than one?
I would hate for someone to be hurt by using one of these cams if they are, in FACT, defective. But, unfortunately, we don't know that answer. And, as it would appear per the phone conversation--CCH is looking into it now.
BTW, I own a full set of Aliens that use regularly and have taken many falls on. If my safety was in danger--I definitely would want to know. I don't want a "maybe," "possibly," or "it could happen." I want a definitive answer. I don't want to deal with a company who will make an uneducated statement or a statement they don't know is 100 percent true. I don't want CCH to fluff information to make a quick statement. I want CCH to make an informed statement taking into account all possible causes of failure. To cover our ass and their own.
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billcoe_
Jan 3, 2006, 8:36 PM
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I missed the part where they acknowledged reciept of the email. As in, "we will be looking into that".
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epic_ed
Jan 3, 2006, 8:37 PM
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Tradgal -- this is not a new issue. They have virtually ignored complaints about this particular run of Orange Aliens for several months. This is the first publically reported incident where one has failed. It's the lack of action by CCH and failure to address a known problem that is opening them up to greater liability via a class action suite.
I, too, have spoke with Dave in the past about various issues and I've been an ardent CCH supporter over the years. Fact is, they make some pretty piss-poor business decisions. The thread on Supertopo was also brought to their attention months ago, and as you can see by reading it, CCH has choosen not to address this problem in any way, shape, or form. I hope they take the opportunity, now, to explain to the public which cams were affected, what date range they were produced, and what they are recommending the owners of some fucked up cams should do to make the situation right.
Ed
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leapinlizard
Jan 3, 2006, 8:48 PM
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I wonder if it has anyting to do with last year when the company coudn't produce enough cams to supply the Yosemite Mountain Store with any. When I was talking to the guy at the YMS he told me that REI bought so many from CCH that they weren't able to supply any to any other company for a while.
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tradgal
Jan 3, 2006, 8:54 PM
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In reply to: I missed the part where they acknowledged reciept of the email. As in, "we will be looking into that".
You also missed the part where I spoke to someone on the phone.
Re: Epic-Ed's comment...
"Fact is, they make some pretty piss-poor business decisions"
No denying that...
"CCH has choosen not to address this problem in any way, shape, or form."
They were replacing those that have been turned in--which is at least acknowledging a problem and addressing it in some way--possibly not the best way. But as far as I know there was no known weakness in strength noted on that issue?
J_ung--in the up close picture--(and I may have missed this answer) did that cam look like one of the cams that was drilled incorrectly?
"I hope they take the opportunity, now, to explain to the public which cams were affected, what date range they were produced, and what they are recommending the owners of some f--- up cams should do to make the situation right. "
I agree, but I also think we need to give them opportunity and time to make this business decision responsibly...
Edited because apparently I don't know how to use the "quote" buttons well...
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epic_ed
Jan 3, 2006, 9:26 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: CCH has choosen not to address this problem in any way, shape, or form. They were replacing those that have been turned in--which is at least acknowledging a problem and addressing it in some way--possibly not the best way. But as far as I know there was no known weakness in strength noted on that issue?
No -- this would be an acceptible way to address a single failure, or to gather data about a possible, unknown defect in a production run. In this case, CCH admitted that there had been "some" cams produced that weren't drilled for the correct cam axle. Well, fuck -- how much is "SOME!" -- and are mine among the affected?!
Once a company knows that it has defective run of cams out there for distribution, it no longer acceptible that they handle it on a case-by-case basis. Someone at CCH needs to get off their ass, figure out how many cams are affected by the faulty axle placement, and indicate to the public what they can do to determine if they own one of these defective cams and what they can do to remedy the situation. They also need to let us know what the expected ramifications are for using the defective equipment. Is the failure of the cam head in question related to the defective production? Or is it entirely unrelated, but part of another problem?
Granted, they need time to address this specific issue, but by their own admission there have been production issues with the Orange Alien in particular and they have know about it for a very long time. Addressing customer concerns about a known defect like this in a private, one-on-one basis gives the appearance of wanting to keep the problem quite and sweep it under the rug.
Ed
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dudemanbu
Jan 3, 2006, 9:34 PM
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If the failure was related to the lobes being incorrectly drilled, it's probable that the lobes themselves would have failed and not the brazing that connects the head to the stem.
It appears that this is a completely different and unrelated problem. Which is not a good thing.
you know what they say..
mo' problems... mo' problems?
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yosemite
Jan 3, 2006, 9:49 PM
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There seem to be two issues with the aliens. The first is the misplaced axle, while the other is a weak connection where the cable attaches above the plate that hold the wires to the cam lobes. Based on what I gather so far, the problems are not related. Is it the consensus that these problems have only been found in the orange aliens?
I just checked my two orange aliens. One has an opaque orange plastic clip-in tube with a red sling. The other “orange” one uses semi-transparent RED plastic tubing material with a red sling. The former is marked 0501; the latter 0902, which I take to be month and year of manufacture.
Anybody have the numeric codes on aliens that have failed?
Thanks.
Gene
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leapinlizard
Jan 3, 2006, 10:03 PM
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Out of the whole thing, what I find absolutely unbelievable is that the OP actually had pictures of the setup, prefall, and fall. I guess it was a good thing that they had a camera when this happened so they could document it so well. How lucky they were to have had all the evidence that they need to go after CCH. And the fact that the alien was backed up by a black diamond directly below it that held. It's amazing that this leader had the foresight to back up that particular cam. Just imagine if he hadn't have backed it up. I guess it really goes to show you that the CCH alien couldn't hold what the BD could.
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edge
Jan 3, 2006, 10:10 PM
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Ed Leeper takes out full page (or damn close to it) ads about bolt hangers he produced in the late 70's.
I bet his hangers cost 1/50th of what an Alien cost.
I just think if CCH is aware of a problem, then they should address it as such.
Right????
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billcoe_
Jan 3, 2006, 10:31 PM
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In reply to: Ed Leeper takes out full page (or damn close to it) ads about bolt hangers he produced in the late 70's. I bet his hangers cost 1/50th of what an Alien cost. I just think if CCH is aware of a problem, then they should address it as such. Right????
RIGHT ON.
And they should be responding, via email, IMMEDIATLY, to the person with the 2 part cam, not just any ol tradgirl who is totally unaffected and just happens to call later on via phone.
And what else would they say to you Tgirl? They obviously were just trying to get you off the phone, and they did.
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tradgal
Jan 3, 2006, 11:04 PM
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Do you really want the guy making minimum wage who reads the email to respond to such a serious allegation? Or would you rather wait for an informed response?
I was proactive in calling instead of waiting around to see what opinions were posted next on this thread. I decided, instead, to find out for myself.
I am affected by this. I own a full set of Aliens. And I do care--or I wouldnt bother responding or calling CCH to find out first hand.
For the record, Dave was very nice on the phone. He offered more info that I even asked about. He didn't brush me off or simply not answer the phone. He took the time to answer respectively.
And, frankly--if this had happenned to me, the first thing I would have done was call CCH, not post a thread and later email CCH. That's not a shot at the OP (though it sounds that way). I just want to make it clear that people repsond to situations in different ways. While I called and asked questions, you post sarcastic comments on threads asking why someone "not involved" would call. As climbers, we are all involved.
I am not necessarily defending CCH, I am simply giving them the benefit of the doubt. Innocent until proven guilty. I am realist. I am a business owner. Perhaps, I am able to see this from a perspective other than a just a climber.
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healyje
Jan 3, 2006, 11:16 PM
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- Repair times in months that require multiple inquiries
- Defective SS stem sheath batches
- Badly or not soldered heads
- Variances, both large and small in axle hole location
- Use of differing axle diameters in same size cams (Red/Yellow)
That's actually quite a litany of manufacturing and quality problems that badly need to be addressed and belies some real systemic problems. Dave has had the benefit of the doubt now for a year or so and has not responded in any formal public way to-date. I suspect CCH and not REI needs to run a formal consumer recall process on some of their product.
Oh, and Bill Coe is also speaking as a business owner who supplies manufacturers with specialized fastners and does speak with solid knowledge on the topic.
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sixleggedinsect
Jan 3, 2006, 11:17 PM
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In reply to: For the record, Dave was very nice on the phone. He offered more info that I even asked about. He didn't brush me off or simply not answer the phone. He took the time to answer respectively.
yeah.. chh, customer service of the highest standards.
i get a real kick out of the folks who called CCH once and chatted with dave (who, yes, is always nice on the phone) and come away warm and fuzzy inside.
and then there are the rest of us, who have called, emailed, and PMd CCH fifteen times trying to find out what the hell happened to gear we sent them months ago. most of the time getting no one. sometimes getting through and being promised empty unfulfilled promises. calling back later, emailing when asked to email, calling again, trying their rc.com handle, getting strung along and promised left and right and .. well, beating a dead horse here.
i was whining about this to a chick i met from laramie. she offered to take a six pack over to their shop and plead my case in person. i turned her down, thinking there was no way it would need to come to that, but now i wonder..
and ive got an orange alien waiting for me at home, brand new from rei, and now im f*cking gripped that im going to die next time i take a fall on the thing.
man. man oh man.
ill third the trango motion. id cry tears of joy to see the honorable maldaly set everything right. maybe he could give the cch guys a sinecure contract. they can sit in a backroom somewhere with a dusty CNC machine and a beer funnel and they dont have to bother with drilling axle holes on center anymore.
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insainio
Jan 3, 2006, 11:19 PM
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In reply to: And, frankly--if this had happened to me, the first thing I would have done was call CCH, not post a thread and later email CCH. That's not a shot at the OP (though it sounds that way).
Actually, I did e-mail CCH before posting this. I e-mailed instead of called because 1. they were closed and 2. I had pictures which could better explain what happened than I could over the phone (P.S. thanks Michelle for taking the pics). I then wanted to post this to warn other climbers.
Oh, and the number on the cam is "805"
And as of yet, they have not responded to my e-mail.
Kevin
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