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metoliusmunchkin
Aug 22, 2002, 4:37 AM
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Upon sifting through many of the threads created within the Gear Heads, I have noticed a great deal of similarities between them. Many of the topics concern who prefers which belay device, ect. Who prefers which belay device? It will be here where we will allow all those seeking such an answer (an answer for the preferable belay device), leading them to a safer environment and state of mind whilst purchase the belay device right for them.
Make no mistake. This topic will definitely not concern whither to purchase the belay devices from, yet more of which belay device does one prefer and why. The 'why' portion of the readers' answer is key, for it will greatly aid those who are new to the world of climbing, and wish to purchase a suitable belay device.
For beginner climbers, I definitely recommend the Petzl GriGri, simply because of its ease of use, and overall choice for most beginner climbers. Many prefer the ATC or BRD however. This will all be discussed subsequently.
What exactly is your weapon of choice? Is it the:
ATC Belay Device
Most commonly seen as:
available for only $16.95 from M-Gear. This particular model manufactured by Black Diamond.
Quote:Seen on more harnesses than any other belay device, the ATC serves as both belay and rappel device for single and double ropes. It's light and simple, won't kink the rope, and comes in a variety of anodized colours. Wt. 2oz.
BRD Belay Device
Most commonly seen as:
available for only $19.95 from M-Gear. This particular model is manufactured by Metolius.
Quote:This new belay/rappel device from Metolius is designed specifically for entry-level climbers. The innovative carabiner notch gives added friction requiring less hand pressure for catching falls. Works with single or double ropes (7 - 11mm).
Belay Plate (with spring - optional)
Most commonly seen as:
available for only $12.95 from M-Gear. This particular model is manufactured by Trango.
Quote:Sometimes overlooked as an "old school" belay device, it's still one of the lightest on the market. Two hole sizes for belaying with ropes of different diameters. Wt. 2 oz.
Figure Eight
Most commonly seen as:
available for only $10.95 from M-Gear. This particular model is manufactured by Trango.
Quote:Classic and traditional belay device.
GriGri
Most commonly seen as:
available for only $70.00 from M-Gear. this particular model is manufactured by Petzl.
Quote: Whether you're safeguarding a leader or climbing with partners of varying weights and size, the Grigri is an excellent tool. Falls are controlled with an integral lock system that locks smoothly and quickly into place under sudden force. The security system of the Grigri is ideal as a little extra protection. Wt. 8 oz.
Alright dudes and dudettes, it's your pick. Which one's it gonna be?
**Click on images to view distinct website.**
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joemor
Aug 22, 2002, 5:12 AM
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you forgot the petzl reverso..... its my choice, and it has so many other uses; ascender, auto lock, ability to bring up two seconds on auto lock mode, rappells and also works like an atc, with two levels of friction incase you have to catch heavier than normal loads. all for around the same price. its only slightly heavier than normal.... by a gram or two. im my oppinion i dont think the extra wieght outweighs the extra uses.
joe
[ This Message was edited by: joemor on 2002-08-21 22:13 ]
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philbox
Moderator
Aug 22, 2002, 5:31 AM
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My prefered choice of belay device is the Grigri. I`ve worked out ways to ensure perfect operation each and every time, no short roping the leader and I can always catch a fall.
The added bonus is that if I get donked on the head then the climber that I am belaying at least has half a chance to be kept on belay even if I am unconcious. Notice I am at pains to avoid using the dreaded 'auto locking' words.
...Phil...
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metoliusmunchkin
Aug 22, 2002, 5:38 AM
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Petzl Reverso
Most commonly seen as:
available for only $21.oo from Mountain Gear. This particular device manufactured of course by Petzl.
Quote:The Reverso is a belay device for the leader or second, for use with dynamic ropes. Attached to the belay loop of the harness, it works like a classic belay plate to belay a leader or second. Attached to the belay using the "self locking" attachment point, the self-locking belay mode may be used to belay one or two seconds. It may also be used to rappel, and for occasional rope climbing.
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pir8penguin
Aug 22, 2002, 1:42 PM
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Currently, my preffered belay device for belaying lead, top rope, or rappeling is the atc. It's very simple and effective, it's kind to my rope, and like it was described, it's very common.
Now, for belay from above, I prefer a reverso. Either in autoblock or in "high friction" catch mode, if i'm anchored in above somebody there's less friction in the syste, so I take harder pulls as a belayer. i'd like to have some assistance in staying locked off if for some reason an anchor shifts.
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atg200
Aug 22, 2002, 2:36 PM
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My favorite is the new Trango B52 - freakin awesome device. I also use a Gri-gri for aid climbing.
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joel_gibbel
Aug 22, 2002, 2:50 PM
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ATC because it's so simple, light weight, and can be used to rappel on a double rope (unlike the grigri). If I ever lose mine (or retire it) I'll probably replace it with a reverso though.
[ This Message was edited by: joel_gibbel on 2002-08-22 08:59 ]
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data118
Aug 22, 2002, 2:52 PM
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Trango Jaws-- Nice and smooth, provides good friction for lowering so you don't get rope burn.
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thrillseeker05
Aug 22, 2002, 3:14 PM
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The Reverso is by far the best belay device out today.
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marcel
Aug 22, 2002, 3:35 PM
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I have not tried the Reverso yet. Guess I'm going to have to get one. Hey but don't forget the Munter Hitch. It's easy, works great, is tested to be the most positive bealy and it only takes a binner.
[ This Message was edited by: marcel on 2002-08-22 08:38 ]
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mountainmonkey
Aug 22, 2002, 3:35 PM
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The Reverso is sweet. Many capabilities and the same performance of the other ATC-like devices with almost the same weight.
Check out this website to see to how to lower a second in the auto-locking mode:
http://www.usmga.net/guidelines/guidelinesreverso.htm
This can be a little complicated to do if you are unfamiliar to self rescue systems. In that case, you are probably better off just using the auto-locking mode if the climb is low angle or very easy.
The only complaint on such an awesome device is that mine is close to retirement and I have only had it for about 11 months. Don't get me wrong though; I feel have gotten my money's worth out of it (maybe I just climb too much). cheers
casey bernal
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josher
Aug 22, 2002, 3:47 PM
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I was dropped and sprung both ankles by a belayer who wasnt paying attention. I dont climb now without a gri-gri!!! Great tool
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spank_spank
Aug 22, 2002, 4:04 PM
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Trango Jaws
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dynomaster
Aug 22, 2002, 4:05 PM
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I've been using an eight, because that's what I started on, but I defentally think an ATC is better. I have not tried the Reverso or the new Trango, but I am considering getting one of the two. Which one is the question. They seem to do about the same thing, and cost about the same too. Has anyone tried both? Please let me know if anyone knows which is better.
Dyno On
Andy
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missedyno
Aug 22, 2002, 4:08 PM
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atc.
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rockhanger
Aug 22, 2002, 4:10 PM
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All these devices are good, however, my preference is the Omega SBGII. Sure the first one was a #$%%^$ on fat ropes, but this new one is soooo smmmooottthhh!. It also eliminates the jerky feeding,stopping and then unlocking the rope. When rapping or lowering you have more control than with the others.
I don't climb with anyone who relys on a Gri Gri. Most have learned to count on the device to do their jo for them. Too often I see their brakehand off the rope.
Just my opinion.
Rob
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tradklime
Aug 22, 2002, 4:10 PM
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I prefer the TRE. It has all the features afforded by autolocking devices and it can be used for rapelling and double ropes.
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jammer
Aug 22, 2002, 5:12 PM
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ATC is my choice. I have a Gri-Gri just in case something happens to the ATC.
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arete2
Aug 22, 2002, 5:43 PM
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I have an atc and I really like it. Do you really think that a gri gri is best for new climbers, it pretty much seems to teach that you dont have to pay attention, just to pull on the rope, Just what I think.
Arete
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arete2
Aug 22, 2002, 5:44 PM
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I have an atc and I really like it. Do you really think that a gri gri is best for new climbers, it pretty much seems to teach that you dont have to pay attention, just to pull on the rope, Just what I think.
Arete
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blindslap
Aug 22, 2002, 6:22 PM
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atc all the way. Simple to use, smooth and gives a nice rappel. Also don't forget that the gri-gri with its cam eliminates the dynamic belay thats given by many tube or plate designs. The gri-gri is great for sport, and big walls (with appropriate knowladge of it's uses and limitations) but for straight trad, its not a good idea.
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metoliusmunchkin
Aug 22, 2002, 9:50 PM
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Not to transform this thread into yet another (as they quite frankly frequent this site) GriGri vs. ATC discussion, yet I do find the GriGri to be safer than the ATC, and this is why: Using a GriGri, the belayer can actually fall asleep during their partners climb, and if a fall should occur during this unfortunate period of time, a ground fall from the climber would be prevented. If a belayer is to fall asleep using an ATC, there is a surefire ground fall to be taken if the climber should unfortunately "misplace his hands."
This is to say that the odds of a belayer actually falling asleep during their partners climb is in fact infinitesimal, however it is more to say that if one may not be paying attention to the climber, and happens to not keep both hands on the system at all times (proving the belayer firstly to be a death warrant), a GriGri would in this instance appear to be safer.
Personally I own both a Petzl GriGri (which I use most often) and the Trango Jaws, which quite resembles the structure of the ATC. Perhaps the only reason why I prefer the Jaws to the ATC is the featured "teeth" that find themselves on the device for an easier locking action: a feature that the ATC does not acquire.
Trango Jaws
Most commonly seen as:
available for only $19.95 from Mountain Gear. Manufactured of course by Trango.
Quote:The unique double V-notch of Jaws offers smooth feed and fast, secure lock-offs. Ideal for any diameter rope, the notches will catch an 8mm rope as well as the 11mm. By turning the device around, you can vary the speed of rappel for overhangs or slabs. Works the same with single or double ropes.
Click on image for details...
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calds
Aug 22, 2002, 10:51 PM
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I usually use the reverso as of lately, I think it runs a bit smoother then the atc. But I always carry an atc for back up.
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mtnjohn
Aug 22, 2002, 11:13 PM
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I guess I am the last person to still use a figure eight! old habits i suppose
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wonderbread
Aug 22, 2002, 11:24 PM
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the petzl gri-gri, it's fool proof.
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philbox
Moderator
Aug 23, 2002, 12:16 AM
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I would have to agree about not wanting to climb with someone who only relys on a Grigri. I use one all the time but I never never just rely on the Grigri. I always rely on the system that I have developed that safely uses the Grigri.
I particularly like belaying an aid lead climber on those long lonely stints at the belay. If I get a bit drowsy I`ll either throw a couple of wraps of the rope around my leg or tie a back up knot that will not feed through the device. If I do happen to doze off then my partner gives the rope a couple of yanks to wake me up and hey presto I`m on the job again never having put my partner in danger.
Seven hours on one belay teaches one a couple of tricks or so.
...Phil...
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lightboi
Aug 23, 2002, 12:58 AM
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Good forum Munchkin, but I disagree with recomending the GRI-GRI for newbies. It is just too complicated for a newbie to use safely. I is easy to rig wrong, and how can you be sure that a newbie is learning correct belaying technique. All other devices work basicly the same. Every climber when they hear FALLING should have their brake hand automaticly go behind thier hip. How will a newbie learn this if the belay device does not require proper hand placement for lock off to occur. The newbies that I mentor dont even see my gri-gri untill they are able to second. The first two things that I teach, first day is how to belay using ATC/B-52/sticht plate ect. Next I teach the munter hitch for when you drop that belay device and lose it in the talus.
I also think of the people that I teach to climb as my students. I feel responsible for their saftey long after they stop climbing with me. Belaying takes little time to learn, and soon becomes a habit, but if proper habits are never learned then more stupid belaying accidents happen.
btw I love the reverso, but the jaws is a close second.
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fitz
Aug 23, 2002, 1:21 AM
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Not to offend (but hey, now that qualitive ratings are gone...), but I think that debating about a 'best' belay device is a bit silly. Especially if you do not factor in situation.
With frozen ropes, a figure 8 has some real advantages. Long aid belays, or guiding an inexperienced second, a gri-gri's features might offset its weight. Even the ancient hip belay is still a good choice in certain circumstances.
Bottom line, they're just tools. Learn their strengths and weaknesses and chose the one that works well for you in a given situation.
-jjf
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metoliusmunchkin
Aug 23, 2002, 1:54 AM
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Joe (fitz) wrote:
Quote: Not to offend (but hey, now that qualitive ratings are gone...), but I think that debating about a 'best' belay device is a bit silly. Especially if you do not factor in situation.
You have misinterpreted the meaning of the thread. Firstly, if you would have read the topic's title, the word is 'preferable' and not 'best.' This thread, as intended wholly by me, is simply for seeing which climbers prefer which belay device, for which types of climbing, as you have stated earlier, with the factoring of particular situations or scenarios.
Quote:Bottom line, they're just tools. Learn their strengths and weaknesses and chose the one that works well for you in a given situation.
I completely agree, and with the reading of this thread it will make it easier to learn such belay devices' strengths and weaknesses. If some posters take the time to elaborate upon why they actually prefer the belay device as opposed to another, it will help the beginner (or perhaps seasoned) climber into which belay device to purchase.
Josh (lightboi) wrote:
Quote:Good forum Munchkin, but I disagree with recomending the GRI-GRI for newbies. It is just too complicated for a newbie to use safely. I is easy to rig wrong, and how can you be sure that a newbie is learning correct belaying technique.
The GriGri should not be recommended to beginner climbers? This is nonsense! The GriGri's distinct use requires no real knowledge of climbing due to the pictorial instruction engraved right into the device's material. If a beginner climber cannot even attempt to rig a GriGri properly, there is no use for them to even be climbing, for a lack of general intelligence.
With the braking system acquired by the GriGri, it is impossible for a climber to fall to the ground if the belayer is not grabbing the rope properly. With an ATC, or a belay device of that sort (Figure Eight, etc.), if the belayer is not grabbing the rope properly, and the climber falls to the ground, it is their fault. This is impossible to happen with a GriGri.
If a beginner climber certainly does not know to use a GriGri (which is in my opinion the easiest belay device to properly utilize), they should not be belaying with any other device, as their are more danger factors that go along with such 'other devices.'
Quote:Every climber when they hear FALLING should have their brake hand automaticly go behind thier hip. How will a newbie learn this if the belay device does not require proper hand placement for lock off to occur.
In this statement you imply the the beginner who has been used to the GriGri, switches over to an ATC (or device of that sort) for its proper use. This cannot be done without the proper instruction. It is the duty of more seasoned climbers to properly instruct the beginner climber's in the proper utilization of belay devices. Such should go without saying.
Phil (philbox) wrote:
Quote: I would have to agree about not wanting to climb with someone who only relys on a Grigri. I use one all the time but I never never just rely on the Grigri. I always rely on the system that I have developed that safely uses the Grigri.
I agree that it is insufficient to rely solely upon one particular belay device. It is healthy to learn to properly utilize a wide array of belay devices as to not miss out on many new climbing experienced due to a lack of 'belaying knowledge.'
Jason (wonderbread) wrote:
Quote:the petzl gri-gri, it's fool proof.
Any belay device is fool proof with proper utilization.
...
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spydermonkey
Aug 23, 2002, 1:57 AM
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I like ATC and GriGri. GriGri are nice because of the auto locking feature. Save energy.
spyder
nice pics by the way. were did you get them?
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metoliusmunchkin
Aug 23, 2002, 2:17 AM
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Chuck (spydermonkey), if you click on the pictures, you will find their location, and discover further details of the product.
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billcoe_
Aug 23, 2002, 2:21 AM
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I have lots of belay devices: but only use 4 consistantly.
Hip Belay: Fitz, you and me bubba, we're the last neanderathals using the ass. For easy ground - it's the best. If the belayer has a solid stance (sitting with feet on nubbins) near impossible to beat. Certainly the easiest to use to keep up with a running partner.
Tuber and a Petzel Attache biner: Is this the lighest combo on the market? I use it on long days and multiday climbs where I don't have to (or want to) drag extra weight. I already have enough weight on my stomach and ass for the hip belays.
SMC anodized straight 8 (figure . I use the little hole like a ATC, and get great rappels using the 8, smooth and big enough to absorb the heat. I always use 2 biners on this to get more friction. That makes it heavy and bulky. But, otherwise, for TR, cragging or short climbs (pitch or 2) this one is the combo I love the most.
Munter hitch. Sometimes I just use it. no reason.
Toodle oosski!!!!
Bill
PS -all this talk about gear got me reved up to buy a B-52. It's in the mail on the way.
[ This Message was edited by: billcoe_ on 2002-09-02 19:39 ]
OK, (9-12)Got the B-52 - it sucks big: I'd avoid it at all costs. I'm not kidding, I've written the factory and also posted on another thread. Any of the devices on this site already discussed will work better IMO than a B-52. ANY.
[ This Message was edited by: billcoe_ on 2002-09-15 21:23 ]
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arockclimber
Aug 23, 2002, 2:34 AM
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Just a few thoughts. Petzl Reverso is my favorite for reasons already mentioned (belay, rappel, auto-locking when bringing up second(s), faster transitions at the belay, and an improvised ascender).
One safety note, Joemor mentions in a post that:
"with two levels of friction in case you have to catch heavier than normal loads"
I can't find the instructions for my Reverso, but I belive that you are only supposed to belay on the rounded side of the Reverso (as the diagram on the device shows). The less rounded side can be used to DESCEND for increased friction.
I do agree with some other folks about new climbers learning to use a Gri-Gri as their first belay device. I feel that new climbers should learn how to use a "conventional" belay device before they learn to use a Gri-Gri.
Most people I see who use a Gri-Gri a lot tend to do things with it that would be unsafe with a "regular" belay device. They take their break hand off the rope, they tend to be less attentive because they feel the "can't" drop someone, I've seen the device rigged backwards and folks get dropped. When you work under the false pretense that a device is going to do YOUR job, folks tend to get complaicent and let their guard down.
If you teach new climbers how to use a "regular" device first and impart the importance of the task they are undertaking they tend to take the situation more seriously and pay more attention to the situation at hand. (They aren't relying on a gadget to do their job, they understand that if they screw up or don't pay attention someone will get hurt.)
Most new climbers can take the $50 they will save (versus the $72 Gri-Gri) by buying a regular belay device and use it to buy things they need more than a Gri-Gri. Things that are more useful than a heavy, auto-locking belay device, which has a very static lock off (no dynamic belay effect), can only be used on single ropes, and can't be used in winter conditions.
Don't me wrong, I'm a fan of the Gri-Gri for certain situations. I own one and use it often.
Metoliusmunchkin, you seem to be waving the flag for Mountain Gear pretty hard. Your original post seems like an advertisement for belay devices that Mountain Gear sells, not a discussion about the pros and cons of different belay devices or a discussion of their applications or sutability for different climbing situations. (No offense meant by this comment, just pointing out my general impression of the post.)
Have fun, be safe!
arockclimber
[ This Message was edited by: arockclimber on 2002-08-23 05:31 ]
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rush
Aug 23, 2002, 3:25 AM
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My simple to use and very smooth Reverso
Climb on
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k9rocko
Aug 23, 2002, 3:43 AM
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......and for my favorite
The Hugh Banner Sheriff
http://a1072.g.akamai.net/...umbimages/610868.jpg
Available from REI.com for $14.95
The reason why? I like the solid keeper. The cable on the ATC is kind of floppy. The solid stay on the Sheriff keeps me tight when setting up belay/rappels etc.
I also own, but don't like the Trango Jaws quite as much. The Jaws seems harder on the rope (if I am lowering someone). The same goes for the Gri-Gri.
An ATC type device rolls the rope across opposing points of friction where both Jaws and Gri-Gri actually pinch or force the rope through a narrow constriction.
I do, however, frequently use the Gri-Gri and Jaws when abusing my belayer on a harder route I am expecting to yo-yo hangdog.
[ This Message was edited by: k9rocko on 2002-08-22 20:51 ]
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rockgymman
Aug 23, 2002, 3:54 AM
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And here we go again: Has anyone ever used a Gri -Gri enough to wear it out?? Well we do,THEY CAN AND WILL FAIL. They are mechanical, they depend on one very small rivet, as to weather they fail, or they hold!! And let me tell you, when that rivet fails, you are left with a piece of junk in your hand. ALways back up any device, in particular, a mechanical one!!! We very carefully inspect every one of them, every day. We know what to look for!! DO YOU!!!! IT is not a solid piece, its a mass of parts. CHECK IT OUT YOUR CLIMBERS LIFE MAY, HINGE ON IT !!! GET IT
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fingerjam
Aug 23, 2002, 4:23 AM
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ATC, simple, easy, effective.
By the way, nice job Metoliusmunchin, this must have been a huge time burner. I wouldnt waste my time making and updating this post, I'd be climbing. It's all up to you man, whatever works.
Laterz
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foograbbinstone
Aug 23, 2002, 5:38 AM
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I'ld have to say, all around use my 8. I like fast rapps/. Now if your talking about belaying, I'ld say my ATC(I have a few other types) its simple, efficient and you can dbl rope it. I haven't used the the reverso or the gri-gri yet but I've been thinking about getting a reverso sooner or later. I'm really not that big on the gri. I think your better off teaching your second the proper method and if your still concerned either dont climb with them or back'em with a prusik.
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jmlangford
Aug 23, 2002, 5:50 AM
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Weapon of choice?
Oh, I'm sorry, I was thinking guns. Didn't read the rest of the title.
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hallm
Aug 23, 2002, 6:27 AM
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BD Super 8
Stitch Plate
Biner brake (learn to make it if you don't know)
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fitz
Aug 23, 2002, 6:38 AM
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Metoliusmunchkin,
Don't get too hung up on semantics, feel free to substitute 'preferred' for 'best' in my earlier post, the point is basically the same. Preferences can also change with situation.
I'd have to agree with some other posters, a gri-gri is not, IMO, a good way to learn how to belay. The device itself is also ill equiped for many belay situations.
Also (I really don't mean to pick on you), I'd argue that NO belay device is fool proof (never underestimate the power of fools...) Seriously, there are situations where accidents can occur, even when a particular belay device is used correctly.
Billcoe,
I've got a scorched fleece as a testament that the hip belay is alive and well (yes, the climber is alive and well too, I arrested his fall). For a fast moving second on easy ground, or an axe shoved into slush as an anchor, hip is, uh, hip. I use a Munter off the anchor sometimes as well. It does twist the rope, but it is strong and comfortable.
-jjf
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downshift
Aug 23, 2002, 1:21 PM
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Personally I have a gri gri and a reverso. I just got the reverso a few weeks ago and really like it so far... I can't complain about it yet. I used to also use an ATC and it was a decent device as well.
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tradguy
Aug 23, 2002, 6:21 PM
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Devices I own (acquired in this order):
Figure 8
stitch plate
BD ATC
HB Sherriff
WC Variable Controller
Petzl Reverso
Hip belays and boot-axe belays are also very handy to know and use in mountaineering when you want to set something up quickly and the chance of a fall is minimal. Good to know both. Munter hitch is also nice for that possible time when you drop your belay device. Some additional comments:
I've used Gri Gri's extensively, and found that while they do have benefits, I generally do not prefer them unless I think there is a good chance the climber is going to do alot of hanging on the rope. Thus, I like them for gym climbing and hard top-roping, but for everything else I simply find them heavy and cumbersome. I also think they have a higher propensity for failure because people DO sometimes rig them incorrectly. I also don't like the sudden release point when you go to lower someone, as I have seen many people in the gym drop climbers VERY quickly with a sudden stop near, or sometimes at, the ground. Kind of scary. The $80+ price tag has also discouraged me from buying one.
The Reverso is my device of choice. I find it to be very smooth, easy to use, and extremely versatile. I especially like the auto-lockoff feature for top belaying. The Wild Country Variable Controller is nice, but I find it is not smooth when lowering a climber or rappelling with my 10.5 and 11 mm ropes. On skinnier ropes (under 10.5) it has always worked wonderfully. As a whole, it seems like it locks off a bit tighter than the ATC. The ATC is the old standard, and works fine, except that I've noticed the flimsy plastic cable seems to get pulled into the ropes and mauled (bent and melted) when doing long double-rope rappells. The HB Sherriff cures this with the metal keeper ring, but it weighs a bit more. The stitch plate works, but is kept in my car simply as a backup just in case I forget another one. I don't really care for figure 8's because I find that they tend to put twists into the rope that make handling a pain in the butt later. Also, I never felt they locked off as well as other devices listed.
[ This Message was edited by: tradguy on 2002-08-23 11:25 ]
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superdiamonddave
Aug 23, 2002, 7:34 PM
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Tradguy, nice explanations. I agree with everything you said but I can't comment on the reverso because I have not used one.
If someone has used the B-52 quite a bit, I would like to hear what you like/don't like about it.
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metoliusmunchkin
Aug 23, 2002, 8:50 PM
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For a long while have I used the GriGri, and have found no troubles with it, nor its ease of use. I am now however beginning to teach myself to better use the Trango Jaws (which, I consider to be a form of ATC).
There is one particular aspect of the Trango Jaws that I do not agree with however, and I was wondering if any other belay devices do the same: I have found that my Jaws twist the rope into unnatural kinks, etc. What I am wondering is more of a fact of thought;
"Does this happen using other belay devices (excluding the GriGri - as I know it does not do this)?"
"Does this harm the rope in any particular way?"
"With the use of certain belay devices, how long should a rope last according to its terms of use?"
...
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dustinap
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Aug 23, 2002, 9:09 PM
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Trango jaws shouldn't kink the rope if used properly. Alot of climbers that use a belay loop thread their tube belay device improperly. The climbers end of the rope should come out on top of the belay device, the brake hand should be on the bottom. Many climbers reverse this, which can cause kinks in the rope.
For me it's
1st. Grigri, I love it and use often.
2nd. Trango Pyramid, I love this and normally use it when I'm outside.
3rd. Hip Belay, I don't use it very often, but atleast I know how to. I may need it some day.
[ This Message was edited by: dustinap on 2002-08-23 14:13 ]
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metoliusmunchkin
Aug 24, 2002, 12:27 AM
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Using the Trango Jaws, I perform the hip belay. For the readers information: I have not reversed the style of belaying with the Trango Jaws, yet have continuously encountered twists and loops being put in the rope due to its use.
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jt512
Aug 24, 2002, 12:30 AM
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Quote:Alot of climbers that use a belay loop thread their tube belay device improperly. The climbers end of the rope should come out on top of the belay device, the brake hand should be on the bottom. Many climbers reverse this, which can cause kinks in the rope.
Even (or especially) if you belay off your harness tie-in points (which I consider incorrect), the belay device can kink the rope if the rope is allowed to run over the side of the device, forming a 90-degree between the two strands of the rope, instead of a 180-degree angle. Be especially careful of this when lowering.
-Jay
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metoliusmunchkin
Aug 24, 2002, 2:40 PM
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Jay (jt512) wrote:
Quote:Even (or especially) if you belay off your harness tie-in points (which I consider incorrect), the belay device can kink the rope if the rope is allowed to run over the side of the device, forming a 90-degree between the two strands of the rope, instead of a 180-degree angle. Be especially careful of this when lowering.
Basically you are explaining that it is best to lower the climber placing the rope at a 180-degree angle (perpendicular to the side of the belay device), rather than placing the rope below the belay device (at the 90-degree angle of which you speak), am I correct? Excuse me, for I had not firstly understood the meaning intended.
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pir8penguin
Aug 24, 2002, 3:45 PM
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I have to disagree munchkin. GriGri's aren't failsafe, they do fail, and they are composed of multiple peices, so there are chances for failure of the device that exceed the likelyhood of atc or other tube style devices failing.
that being said, there is little instance (reported) of the GriGri failing when USED PROPERLY. Also, the device is very safe. However, as can be said about Petzl harnesses, the habits they tend to encourage are less safe.
For example, a belayer cuts his teeth on a GriGri, naturally (if only subconciously) learning that he need not lock off to arrest a fall. While out climbing with his friends, he uses an atc, jaws, plate to belay, and his partner falls. There is a chance that he could remove his brake hand without really thinking about it as being dangerous.
If you learn first wiht a tube device, you learn that the livelyhood of your climber is in your brake hand, and it gets burned into your mind.
Oh, the comment about Petzl harnesses earlier just relates to not having to double them back, so you get in the habit of "pull and go" without doubling. That being said, I use both a Petzl harness and GriGri.
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jt512
Aug 24, 2002, 10:05 PM
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Metolius, if the slot of the ATC is oriented vertically, as it should be, then when you lower your partner the rope going up to him should come out of the top of the slot, and you should hold the brake side of the rope down in front of you so that it comes out of the opposite end of the slot. If either strand of the rope runs over one of the long sides of the slot, then the rope gets kinked.
-Jay
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tradguy
Aug 26, 2002, 12:34 AM
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jt512:
How is it incorrect to belay from the hardpoints of the harness instead of the belay loop? I personally think it's BETTER to belay from the hardpoints. Here's why:
1.) In accordance with the point you were trying to make, belaying from the hardpoints allows you to lock off by bringing the brake hand against (or behind) the hip, instead of down between the legs below the belay device. Not only is the hip a stronger, more natural position to hold the rope with your arm, but the rope across your hip and upper thigh adds more friction to the system, making it even easier to hold.
2.) Using the belay loop ads one more link in the system that has the potential to fail. Plus, the belay loop is NOT redundant. If it goes, you're f*cked. Same reason people are taught to tie in to the hardpoints instead of the belay loop.
3.) When you are finished belaying and pull the rope from the device, if you clip it back into the biner and let it hang from the belay loop, it will bang against your nuts when you walk around - not especially comfortable, I've found. Yes, you can unclip the biner from the belay loop and clip it to one of your gear loops, but whenever you do this you risk dropping it, and if you are working on a multipitch route or happen to be in an exposed location, that could be really bad.
[ This Message was edited by: tradguy on 2002-08-26 05:00 ]
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jt512
Aug 26, 2002, 4:22 PM
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Quote:How is it incorrect to belay from the hardpoints of the harness instead of the belay loop.
Biners are designed to be loaded along their long axis only. The belay loop, I say again, belay loop, is there to insure that that is how the biner gets loaded. Belaying with the biner thru the two tie-in points allows the biner to rotate and stabilize in a vertical orientation, which can result in it being loaded along its minor axis.
Additionally, the belay loop keeps the belay device in its proper orientation: the slot is vertical, not horizontal, so the rope doesn't twist as it passes thru the device.
Quote:1.) In accordance with the point you were trying to make, belaying from the hardpoints allows you to lock off by bringing the brake hand against (or behind) the hip...
That's how you lock off when the belay device is attached to the belay loop, as well.
Quote:instead of down between the legs below the belay device.
That's how you lower, not how you lock off.
Quote:2.) Using the belay loop ads one more link in the system that has the potential to fail.
The probability that a belay loop that is in good condition will fail is virtually zero, whereas the potential for a cross-loaded biner to fail is a real risk.
Quote:Plus, the belay loop is NOT redundant.
Belaying through the tie-in points adds redundancy at the price of increased risk of failure, which makes no sense. If you want redundancy tie a second belay loop onto your harness. Also, belay with two carabiners, climb on two ropes, using, of course, two belayers.
-Jay
(Edited to add subliminal messages about what a belay loop is for.)
[ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2002-08-26 09:26 ]
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dovaka
Aug 26, 2002, 4:44 PM
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i have a atc a gri gri and a figure 8 i primarilly use the gri gri for belay and the atc to rap with if i have to and the figure 8 is juse there as stand by since i never know when i may need it
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howitzer
Aug 26, 2002, 5:00 PM
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I use the ATC all the way! Good explanation about usage, JT - considering the belay loop is the STRONGEST part of the harness, and the instructions on your harness tell you to use it for that purpose... it's the way to go!
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dustinap
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Aug 26, 2002, 5:09 PM
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The hardpoints on your harness have 2 loops, but loads the carabiner in a way it is not designed to be loaded.
The belay loop loads the carabiner in the way it is meant to be loaded. Belay loops are safer IMHO. If you tie in with a figure eight which most climbers do, you can clip the locker thru both the belay loop, and the bight on the figure eight that goes thru your harness. You now have a redundant setup.
[ This Message was edited by: dustinap on 2002-08-26 10:12 ]
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aarong
Aug 26, 2002, 5:19 PM
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I really like the Reverso the best. It belays really smooth, easy to use on rappel and perfect for belaying seconds.
It's more durable than anything with a wire, too.
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coldclimb
Aug 26, 2002, 5:48 PM
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I say ATC, but I'm gonna have to try one of them reversos.
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tradguy
Aug 26, 2002, 6:04 PM
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JT512,
While I worry that we may be getting dangerously close to off topic, I feel compelled to counter on a few points:
Quote:Belaying with the biner thru the two tie-in points allows the biner to rotate and stabilize in a vertical orientation, which can result in it being loaded along its minor axis.
I disagree. If the biner is in a vertical orientation, with the rope and belay device on top, the biner will be loaded along it's MAJOR axis (force parallel to the spine), not it's minor (perpendicular to the spine), when the rope pulls UP, as it should if a properly belayed climber takes a fall. This does assume, of course, that you are using a proper belay biner (ie large radius curves).
Quote:Additionally, the belay loop keeps the belay device in its proper orientation: the slot is vertical, not horizontal, so the rope doesn't twist as it passes thru the device
Again, I disagree. With the slot "vertical" (ie perpendicular to the wall and your chest), if you lock off the rope to your hip, it will curl across the side of the ATC, rather than over the end, and twist the rope. This does not happen with the ATC slots "horizontal" (ie parallel to the wall and your chest), where the rope runs an S shape through the device. I wish I had some pictures to show you what I mean, because I worry that my descriptions might be mis-interpretted.
Quote:Belaying through the tie-in points adds redundancy at the price of increased risk of failure...
I disagree again on yet another point. I've been climbing for nearly 10 years, and have never had problems cross-loading my belay biner. I won't say it's impossible, but I don't think it is any more likely to get cross-loaded in my setup than if it is attached to the belay loop. In both cases, it is up to the user to ensure it is rigged properly and stays that way during use.
Quote:(Edited to add subliminal messages about what a belay loop is for.)
I assume, then, you don't rappell from your belay loop??
Joe
[ This Message was edited by: tradguy on 2002-08-26 11:07 ]
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climbingboulder
Aug 26, 2002, 6:15 PM
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I had an ATC for 7 years, and it worked fine and I was perfectly happy with it, until I got a B-52. Think better friction, smoother action, same weight. Think no thumb sprains with ratty 11mm ropes trying to get them through, and I'm psyched to try it with nice frozen ropes too.
Oh yeah, autoblocking?
My full report is at http://www.climbingboulder.com/resources/features/gear_reviews/trango_b_52.html
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rockjock04
Aug 26, 2002, 6:24 PM
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I have an Air Traffic Controller and Love it. Sadly thats only being compared to using the figure eight, (in which was set up to belay in the rappel position ).
I hear alot of good stuff about this petzl reverso. Does anyone know a site I can check out to see how it works? How its rigged etc.?
Is the auto locking feature usable in belaying a top rope?
Perhaps I will ask for it for my birthday in cold cold november.
peace out
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woodse
Aug 26, 2002, 6:51 PM
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The Reverso is definitely my weapon of choice. Large opening makes feeding out and taking in rope a breeze. Locks off easily. Can belay when using double ropes. Auto-locking when bringing up the second. Can be used to ascend ropes in emergency situations. It is the best ever!!!
woodsE-Proud owner of 2 Reverso Belay Devices!
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jono
Aug 26, 2002, 7:09 PM
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ATC
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mountainmonkey
Aug 26, 2002, 7:26 PM
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The reverso is great but many people waste their money on it. The only advantage it has over the ATC is the autolocking feature (although I am a big fan of the rigid keeper). You will waste your money on it unless you plan to use it to belay seconds using the autolocking feature. Stick with the atc if you only plan to use it for belaying and rapelling.
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waxman
Aug 26, 2002, 7:34 PM
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I'm all about the ATC.
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mitchal
Aug 26, 2002, 8:17 PM
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ATC
And now for something completely different....
Wild Country Single Rope Controller. It has a sorta auto locking action and is smooth for lead belaying.It's drawback is the single rope capacity,no rappeling down with this one.'Course the ATC is light enough to carry along for the ride.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Climb Happy
Mitch
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djnibs
Aug 26, 2002, 9:32 PM
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for a good presentation on the reverso, goto:
http://www.petzl.com/petzl/statique/sport/promotion/reverso/reversoflash.html for a flash animation on the reverso.
or goto:
http://www.petzl.com/petzl/publicFamille?id=ASS#REVERSO
both are from petzl.
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kindredlion
Aug 26, 2002, 9:57 PM
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Ok I just wrote a two page post here...
I hit the back button and well..
I just took the cyber equivalent of a twenty foot whipper - no incident. I am just back near the begining again...
So instead of being as long winded as I was. Which may be difficult considering how much spray I have in me, I will be bulletted and brief.
In most free climbing environmens, the ATC off of the ground is my way. Once at the belay, a Muntner hitch off of the anchor makes things smooth and efficient.
For most Aid situations - The Gri Gri really shines. After pushing yourself on your top setps for a while, a cozy Gri Gri cushioned belay nap is more than a dream on a long day. Meanwhile your leader can still make safe progress, without a bottom anchor and belaying himself.
ISSUE
The Reverso
WHY?
I own one of these little ditty's and well, lets just say its got its early retirement. I remain open to debate of course, but I can't say you'r gonna get through to me.
My Muntner does not 'autolock' sure, but my reverso, does not let me lower my partner.
Is this a valid exchange? I bring out lots of beginners, and well lets just say, lowering is an option I need, I bet I am not alone. There are many ways advertised to enable the device to lower off of the anchor, and I have figured out some "better" ways of my own. My question remains.. WHY?
If I have a device, (or knot for that matter) that will perform all off the same functions as the Reverso, but could lower It would be the Grail of belay devices. For now I think its ridiculous to stunt my options just for the "convenience" of an 'auto lock'. Just to add. The ATC (and most other two slotted tubers) can as well bring up two seconds simultaneously, just not off the anchor, and with a little practice. Just remember there is no 'auto lock'
ISSUE
The Reverso
Experience vs. Technology
Is this another reason for climbers to lax on training, practice, and good habit? Is this another invitation to rely on 'better' technology? Unlike the mechanical Gri Gri, the reverso has no moving parts, and its lock mechanism relies on proper rigging, load, and friction. Mechanically this is a paramount improvement. For the dummy this sucks! So many factors! too much to think about!! Agreed the reverso is not for beginners. But does a beginner buy a belay device because it claims 'autolock'? Or does a beginner buy because of price? If YES is the answer to both of these questions, (I don't know, that's why I ask)neophytes will acquire the reverso.
I agree that knowledge is power.
I will teach about all types of devices, including the reverso. I will not reccomend it to anyone, but a leader of a three man party on double ropes, intending to bring up his seconds simultaneously. (provided he's no dummy)
Ding Ding Ding!
Begin Round 1
Question
Anyone ever use the reverso for roped soloing?
I will fuss (safely) with a clove hitch.
I will cruise with an expensive heavy Gri Gri.
I have never taken an inverted fall on my Gri Gri, and hope I never do. I do feel though that my Gri Gri will catch me.
Does anyone know if there are inverted fall concerns with the reverso?
Could this be the first cheap soloist?
Talk amongst yourselves...
Take Air.
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jt512
Aug 26, 2002, 11:11 PM
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Quote:Belaying with the biner thru the two tie-in points allows the biner to rotate and stabilize in a vertical orientation, which can result in it being loaded along its minor axis.Quote:
I disagree. If the biner is in a vertical orientation, with the rope and belay device on top, the biner will be loaded along it's MAJOR axis (force parallel to the spine), not it's minor (perpendicular to the spine), when the rope pulls UP...
OK, horizontal then. The point is that with three points of contact the biner is more likely to find a stable orientation with the net force along its minor axis. FWIW, the UIAA agrees with me on this. In the 2000 edition of the Journal of the UIAA, the article, "Wrong Placement of the Belay Karabiner," states: [blockquote]The problem is that if the locking karabiner can't rotate freely, we can't be sure how the karabiner will be loaded. There are 3 main problems with this: 1. Danger of partial or full loading along the minor axis.... 2. Danger of unintntional opening of the karabiner.... 3. Cutting the rope....[/blockquote]
Oh, and they call it an "abseil loop," so I'm ok to rappel on it, too.
-Jay
[ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2002-08-26 16:14 ]
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tradguy
Aug 27, 2002, 12:12 AM
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Dammit!! You win - pulling out the big guns quoting the UIAA. Though I haven't had this problem personally, I can envision how someone using an improperly shaped biner could potentially have troubles.
I still stand by my statement, though, that my method is better for my future children - getting smacked in the nuts with a gri gri hanging from the belay loop while you're walking really sucks!
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astone
Aug 27, 2002, 12:29 AM
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ATC all the way. The simplest is still the best.
Also, it is easily backed up with a trusty prusik while rappelling. This gives me the option of freeing my hands to untangle the rope from a snag.
BTW anyone who neglects to learn and practice with the prusik knot will someday regret it.
Have Fun, astone
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pir8penguin
Aug 27, 2002, 12:31 AM
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then clip it to a gear loop. i've heard many times the argument that the belay loop is just another link in the chain, but it seems that it's at least as strong as a sen runner, if not stronger. the fact that it promotes a proper orientation would make things safer, if in fact the strength of the belay loop is known to be acceptable.
jt, what should one without a belay loop do? i've yet to see that addressed.
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jt512
Aug 27, 2002, 2:04 AM
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Quote:jt, what should one without a belay loop do? i've yet to see that addressed.
IMO, they should get a new harness.
In the meantime, do not belay or rappel with a figure 8 rappel device. A figure 8 can leverage open a crossloaded carabiner under body weight alone. Although this can happen with or without a belay loop, accident reports suggest that it is more likely to occur when the carabiner is threaded thru the harness tie-in points.
An alternative is to tie in to the rope with a figure 8 knot and belay off the bight of rope formed when you tie in. However, don't do this with a bowline.
Or, continue to belay off the tie-in points, being very careful to monitor the orientation of the biner.
-Jay
[ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2002-08-26 19:04 ]
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jt512
Aug 27, 2002, 2:08 AM
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Quote:I still stand by my statement, though, that my method is better for my future children - getting smacked in the nuts with a gri gri hanging from the belay loop while you're walking really sucks!
You'll notice that I didn't argue with that point! But, I wouldn't want my belay device hanging in front of me when I climb, even if it weren't banging against my nuts. I clip it to a gear loop when I'm not using it. I've dropped it once. It's no big deal if you know your munter hitch and biner brake rappel.
-Jay
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gakin
Aug 27, 2002, 1:15 PM
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Usually I would say an ATC. I recently purchased a BRD to use in the gym simply because I was curious. While I like using both, in the gym I prefer the BRD. Very simple to use. I think Metoulis did a great job with it, and I've been very pleased, but I do believe that I am going to switch to the Reverso in the near future, escpecially for climbing at the crag.
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metoliusmunchkin
Aug 29, 2002, 3:29 PM
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I have just recently begun using the Trango Jaws more often as I usually do, and find it equivalently as comforting as the "flawless" GriGri. Still, I must stand by my previous statement, in cohering that using a GriGri is safer than an ATC (or it's predecessor, the Trango Jaws).
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drector
Aug 29, 2002, 5:43 PM
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I hate being late to an interesting thread... My climbing partner took a date out climbing and she pulled on the Grigri lever until he hit the ground. Only 15 feet and it still slowed him a little. It does have it's drawbacks.
I use a Jaws. I have an ATC but it doesn't grab enough on my 10.2 dry rope. The jaws is smooth and can be reveresed for different conditions.
I have tried the Grigri as a solo device but ONLY for solo top-roping. Never on lead.
I'm waiting for Gary at Vertical Devices (http://storrick.cnchost.com/VerticalDevicesPage/VerticalHome.shtml) to do a review of the B-52. It looks interesting.
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wiegs
Aug 29, 2002, 6:02 PM
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I just got my B-52 in the mail yesterday. Quite a neat device. Haven't had much chance to use it, but it looks to be the device that'll beat out my ATC for my primary belay device. It's really pretty nice. I intend to take it out this weekend to Devil's Lake, so if anyone wants my opinion after more extensive tests, just PM me, and I'll have em for ya
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kevlar
Aug 29, 2002, 11:22 PM
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I like to climb...an all this chatter...is making me dizzzzzzzzzzy....
I am off to the rocks...
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minnesotatrad
Aug 29, 2002, 11:38 PM
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I prefer ATC. It pays out rope easily and it is great for catching big leader falls.
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metoliusmunchkin
Aug 30, 2002, 6:03 PM
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John, don't forget the belay device!
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iridesantacruz
Aug 31, 2002, 12:22 AM
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i like the atc, its what i learned on too, its so easy. I dont normally trust some mechanical belaying devices either. though whem coming down.. figure 8.... keep it simple.
chris
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rockmongrel
Aug 31, 2002, 1:20 AM
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has anyone used the wild country src?
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jt512
Aug 31, 2002, 2:11 AM
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Quote:My climbing partner took a date out climbing and she pulled on the Grigri lever until he hit the ground. Only 15 feet and it still slowed him a little. It does have it's drawbacks.
That's not a drawback of the gri-gri; it's user error. If the belayer were using an ATC and the belayer let go with the brake hand and dropped the climber, would you say it's the device's fault?
-Jay
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metoliusmunchkin
Sep 15, 2002, 6:13 AM
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Jay, you're right on.
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djnibs
Sep 15, 2002, 11:40 PM
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SBG II all the way. i love it.
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moun10man
Sep 23, 2002, 3:10 AM
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The ATC is the only belay device that I have used. It works great, stops a fall fast and without a lot of effort, I'm comfortable using it in belay applications. If it ain't broke don't fix it!
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billcoe_
Sep 23, 2002, 6:48 PM
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B-52 is a POS. Don't get one IMO and theres lots of reasons.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=15966&forum=40
Get an ATC or probably better, the DMM Bug. http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=16508&forum=40
I'd pass on the Reverso too.
My opinion:
Bill
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jamison
Sep 23, 2002, 7:37 PM
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A response to the intro post, jt512 and metoliusmunchkin...
I have not used a grigri, but I am of the opinion that any "autolocking" device should only be used by "experienced" climbers. belayers need to be taught that they are the most important link in the safety chain.
Grigris and similar devices might have a tendency to promote lax attitudes.
Maybe OK for some, not for me.
[ This Message was edited by: jamison on 2002-09-23 12:38 ]
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massbayclimber
Sep 23, 2002, 8:58 PM
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I agree Jamison. The Gri-Gri is a much easier way to belay, but for the beginner climbers and belayers it should be ATC. Someone correct me if I am wrong but for a Gri-Gri, if the rope is put in backwards (i.e. the rope goes through the wrong part and out the wrong end) it will not work to catch the climber.
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drector
Sep 23, 2002, 9:14 PM
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jt512,
RE: Friends date drops him.
I'm sorry you didn't understand that one statement I made aboput the gri gri: "it has it's drawbacks." You must have interpreted this as "the gri gri is flawed" instead of what I meant which was "The gri gri is not foolproof and does not keep a beginner from making a mistake and killing someone."
I posted the story as information to others thinking that the gri gri is foolproof. It is not. I agree that the girl made a mistake but accept that the gri gri didn't stop her from doing it. I do not feel the gri gri is better or worse for beginners.
Dave
[ This Message was edited by: drector on 2002-09-23 14:17 ]
[ This Message was edited by: drector on 2002-09-23 14:41 ]
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goingtohellquick
Jan 3, 2003, 10:23 PM
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The gri gri is the best (and it shows you how to set it up on the side). Well, if you have no expierence climbing with it you should climb with one at a gym to get the feel for it. The work will pay off
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arrrghjp
Jan 3, 2003, 10:42 PM
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Just got an Omega SBGII for Xmas, and really like it a lot. Very, very smooth rope feed, can be set up for three different resistance configurations, and the price was under $20. Only problem, the stem is thick so I have to put my locking Jake backwards so the wide end is up...minor inconvenience.
Josh
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easysteve
Jan 3, 2003, 10:59 PM
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ATC, I've never even fooled with a gri gri, but I'm sure I'll get my hands on that soon, and make it my new belay device of choice.
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