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joel_gibbel
Aug 29, 2002, 1:19 PM
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Alright JM, maybe you think I'm totally retarded, but let me clarify. If someone was raping my wife or trying to kill my family, I would definitely try to stop him. I would try to put myself in harm's way in place of a loved one, and maybe use force (to restrain an assailant) if necessary. I simply would not ever want to kill him. I don't think anyone deserves to have his life taken, and I will not repay evil with a greater evil. That's all I'm saying.
By the way I have nothing against hunting, as I do eat meat. I just think people fight too hard to keep their handguns, when they really don't need them as much as they think. And if you'll never use it to kill, then why own it. As long as you have it you might feel forced to use it someday. And yes, guns don't kill, they are only a tool. A tool designed to kill.
[ This Message was edited by: joel_gibbel on 2002-08-29 06:20 ]
[ This Message was edited by: joel_gibbel on 2002-08-29 06:21 ]
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jeffe
Aug 29, 2002, 2:22 PM
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Not all violent felons give up by being restrained. Sometimes the threat or use of deadly is needed stop the action. I've had many windows kicked out of police cars by handcuffed prisoners. Do you possess the skills to restrain a motivated assailant?
Remember the news clips from the Los Angelas riot that occurred after the Rodney King verdict. I remember seeing news footage of Korean business owners that protected their businesses from being burned and looted by guarding their property with firearms. Another story I recall came from a affluent neighborhood where neighbors came together blocked access to their community and guarded it with their guns. Thus protecting their families and property. Think of the truck driver that was severly beaten on national telivision. Would he have been justified in using deadly force to protect himself?
Could this type of civil unrest occur again? Do you think a large crowd of rioters would be intimidated by a small group of people waving their fists in the air?
[ This Message was edited by: jeffe on 2002-08-29 07:34 ]
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joel_gibbel
Aug 29, 2002, 3:00 PM
Post #128 of 197
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You make some good points there, jeffe. I just hold a personal belief against using deadly force for any reason. I will let someone beat me up if he must. If there is crime, I will call the police. They are not perfect, but it is how our society should function. I may not be as safe, but I will not have anyone's blood on my hands either. Just my opinion.
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justsendingits
Aug 29, 2002, 3:44 PM
Post #129 of 197
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"Could this type of civil unrest occur again?"--I hope so,but this time instead of destroying private property,hopefuly it will be Goverment property!!!---I have kicked out a "OINKER" window myself,back in the day!!!HAHAHAHA!!
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coach
Aug 29, 2002, 3:49 PM
Post #130 of 197
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Joel,
Just remember that it has been folks like me and many others on this site that have "defended the Constitution" for over 200 years that gives you the right to speak your mind freely about this subject (or any other) without fear of retribution. Thank God that there will always be people that will always step up to continue the defense of what you refer to as "crap". By the way, I was proud to defend your right to refer to it as "crap", that is what makes this country great.
Steve,
Your argument that registration will help keep guns out of the hands of the wrong people won't stand up to scrutiny. My father had his home broken into 8 years ago and lost a lifetime collection of firearms (all registered). All the information was passed to police and to date not one weapon has ever been recovered. It may sound great to say it is a step but toward what? Once again you have failed to explain how registering my firearm will help.
Climb On
* I also don't buy all that the NRA spouts but my right to own my firearm is not something the NRA gave me.
[ This Message was edited by: coach on 2002-08-29 09:13 ]
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jmlangford
Aug 29, 2002, 4:20 PM
Post #131 of 197
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"One is auto (unless, of course, it is the AR-15, which I used to own)..."
In this case, they are both semi-automatic-only able to fire one round per trigger pull.
"The other, the non-M-16 or AR-15 has a higher caliber..."
Nope, both shoot .223 caliber rounds.
"Well, the government has always decided what we can and can't own..."
That doesn't make it right or constitutional!
"M-16 and AR-15 version offer a lighter weight and more "tactical" round and versatility, which is completely "assault"..."
A lighter weight? Why would that be more dangerous. Sounds like you are buying the media bull about all guns being classified as "assault weapons". Why the fixation on assault? Heck, a knife can be used as an assault weapon. How can the configuration of a weapon make it more dangerous? The operational aspects of those two guns remain the same-one round fired for each trigger pull. Yet you say changing a few things on how the gun looks makes it "assault"? You're not making any sense there! How about studying the facts instead of just regurgitating the bullcrap that you hear from Tom Brokaw?
"Now, given, a responsible person will not use said weapon for wrong doing..."
Thank you for making my point for me.
"Then again, even the "responsible" person does not NEED that weapon. It is completely useless. It's caliber is too low for hunting "big game" in most states, and too powerful for hunting small game, period."
So you are appointed to decide what a "responsible" person needs? That's nice, I don't even have to think for myself now. The caliber we are talking about can be safely used for deer and wild pigs and also varmints. It is a VERY useful round for hunting. The most important thing is that it is extremely effective against "bad guys". That is another point you are missing, hunting is the least important reason to own guns. Self defense and to guard against a tyrannical government are the most important reasons. The 2nd Amendment had nothing to do with hunting!
"Knowing that this person owns this or that, only helps them target necessary areas in relation to "illegal" weapons. I don't care what you say, it is a GOOD idea. If the registration of firearms will lead to better law enforcement (remember, it is a plan that needs to be implicated, not a proven process) to target specific areas, to learn and confescate illegal weapons, I'm all for it. Why would you not be? The WON'T take yours from you. All they ask is that you fill out a for annually to show that you have said weapons, or who you sold them to. Not a big deal."
I feel sorry for you, blindly going along in life figuring the government knows best and won't EVER do anything to hurt us. I still don't see how registering guns will tell them where the illegal guns are. Unless you are allowed to register them while they are legal and then they are made illegal later. Then what? Well they will come knocking at your door, that's what! Oh, I forgot, the government will NEVER take guns away. Seems to me that is the ONLY thing registration is good for.
[ This Message was edited by: jmlangford on 2002-08-29 09:37 ]
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joel_gibbel
Aug 29, 2002, 4:24 PM
Post #132 of 197
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Thanks coach, for reminding me that free speech is a privilege. I am very thankful that I have it and can speak my mind without retribution. However, I find flaws in the fact that you have so much pride in yourself and the people who defend this country. Nothing personal, but how does the fact that you went overseas and killed some communists protect my right of free speech? It's all government/military propaganda and I'm not into it. Sorry for getting off subject, and please don't take offense to this. This is just the way I feel about things.
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jeffe
Aug 29, 2002, 4:59 PM
Post #133 of 197
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Joel, if your are the victim of a crime and call the police. Is the blood really off your hands, if I show up and get in a deadly confrontation the actor?
Think about how great it is to express your right of free speech here on RC.com. If communism got a stronger hold around the world, gaining the resources to overtake America, you may not have the freedom you are expressing now.
[ This Message was edited by: jeffe on 2002-08-29 14:49 ]
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justsendingits
Aug 29, 2002, 5:14 PM
Post #134 of 197
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Jeffe-bla,bla,bla,---What do u know about Communism?--Go to Hanoi where i here that the wives of veterans can walk the streets at night without fear of crime.Can u do that in this country oinker boy?
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joel_gibbel
Aug 29, 2002, 5:19 PM
Post #135 of 197
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Jeffe, that's completely speculative and impossible to answer. How would I know that he would kill you? Ridiculous. I don't think it's right to take justice into my own hands. I'm not trying to change your mind, just open it to a new idea. It's called nonviolence. It's nothing new, just sometimes forgotten. Thanks for listening.
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jmlangford
Aug 29, 2002, 5:45 PM
Post #136 of 197
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justsendingitis...move to freakin Hanoi then if it is so darn good there! I thought you might be a snot-nosed little teenager(there are plenty on this site) but I looked at your profile and you claim you are 39. Is that your age or your IQ? How about growing up a little bit.Your posts are so moronic I don't take you seriously and will ignore you now. Unlike joel_gibbons, I think his ideas are totally screwy, however, at least he presents them in a mature way so I tend to listen to them.
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justsendingits
Aug 29, 2002, 5:49 PM
Post #137 of 197
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Jmangl--na,na,na,na,naaaa,na!!!!
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justsendingits
Aug 29, 2002, 6:04 PM
Post #138 of 197
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Jmangl--(aka.oinker boy)Maybe I can learn from you how to make a mature post,like um,on page 5 of this thread,the animation you posted was very intellectual!!
Also Gun registration was responsable for 57 million murders?? whatever!!!
I think you are trying to make up for the small size of your penis with all those guns!!! OINK,OINK!!!!!
[ This Message was edited by: justsendingits on 2002-08-29 11:15 ]
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pianomahnn
Aug 29, 2002, 6:21 PM
Post #139 of 197
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It's obvious when the attacks become personal that they have nothing else to contribute to the debate.
Personal attacks can get the hell out of this thead; they're unnecessary and worthless.
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phillycheese
Aug 29, 2002, 6:42 PM
Post #140 of 197
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Jeffe wrote:
"Joel, if your are the victim of a crime and call the police. Is the blood of really of your hands, if I show up and get in a deadly confrontation the actor?"
what the...
please elaborate
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howitzer
Aug 29, 2002, 6:59 PM
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Well put, piano. Most have made good arguments here without flaming eachother, but Justsend-blah-blah (doosh?) turns and acts like a middle school weiner. He has said in other threads here what he thinks of America after serving it (supposidly) in the military - he can't stand our country, and (from what it appears here) anyone in it. He talks on and on about how great other countries are compared to ours, and even went so far in another thread to say he was GLAD that the Pentagon was hit by an airplane (thus killing many innocent people who worked 3 minutes from where I do). I take offense to much of what he says, being the fiancee of a US Marine who works here in our nations capital (often in the Pentagon). Oh, and Joel, just because the bible says thou shalt not kill, it doesn't mean you shouldn't protect you and yours from those who will. You find flaws in the fact that those who have served (like coach) have so much pride? I really don't think you're in a place to say such things to someone (Coach) who stepped up and defended our way of life and could have died for the freedoms you have today. You're lucky that people like him exist since spineless people like you don't have the courage to stand up and fight for a cause like our freedom and democracy. You have no idea of what someone like Coach went through serving in a war - your comment is an insult to all those who have done what you won't dare to. I'm sorry I take some of what has been said here personally. We have a gun in our house because we live in an area that is not safe - there are lots of break-ins, rapes, murders, and the like in these parts. I'd love to move to the country, but my job is here right now. That doesn't mean someone has the right to take MY life. As a gun owner because it is my right to protect myself and those I love, I applaud Coach, JM and others here who have been able to make good points without getting too hot in the collar.
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justsendingits
Aug 29, 2002, 7:00 PM
Post #142 of 197
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"Do you think I care what some bitch in a far off land thinks about my owning a gun"
"The law enforcement agencies are comparible to the bastard Red Coats."
Hey um pianoman,practice what u preach,these are quotes from you.
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justsendingits
Aug 29, 2002, 7:11 PM
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Howitzer---Your boyfriend is a jarhead!!!sorry to hear that.And yeah,I did serve in the military way back when I was brainwashed,read some Howard Zinn,or Noam Chompsky.You might learn something.This country has done some evil sh!t,and will continue to do so!!
Ok,so sometimes I troll for reactions,I would tell you the standard response of the right wingers,(Love it or leave it)but instead I will leave you with,"
[ This Message was edited by: justsendingits on 2002-08-29 14:01 ]
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coach
Aug 29, 2002, 7:41 PM
Post #144 of 197
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Abi,
Thanks for the kind words ubt whatever I did in service was not done for praise or glory. The same goes for all the others here that served. I fully support Joels right to disagree with me and engage in heated debate without degenerating into name calling. I actually enjoyed the debating with him although we strongly disagree. As far as justsendingits comments about what the military is full of he said in another post he served 3 years in Germany and I would venture that was probably sometime in the 1980's based on his age. Therefore he has no idea what the military is full of but I think we all know what he is full of!
Climb On
* Continue to agree to disagree. If we all thought the same way what a boring place it would be.
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justsendingits
Aug 29, 2002, 7:52 PM
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It was 18 months in Germany,and in the 80's(1981-82).No wonder the Germans hated us,all we did is get drunk and fight!!(not everybody)
Good thing we saved Europe from those commie baste%ds.(like what would they have gained by invading Europe? It would have never happend)I lived with those guy's in the military,some of the worst days of my life!!!There were a few cool ones but most of them were sorry ass losers.(including me at the time)
I don't imagine the military has changed much!!!
[ This Message was edited by: justsendingits on 2002-08-29 13:59 ]
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howitzer
Aug 29, 2002, 7:53 PM
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Just... troll for reactions? More like try to offend if you ask me. Sure my man is a jarhead, and I'm damn proud of him. He would never rape a woman or kill a baby, either (and neither would my friend here, Coach)- so find a new saying. Or do you say that because it's what you did? You are bitter about something that I obviously am unaware of and I'm sorry for your anger. Neither me nor my fiancee are brainwashed into thinking america is something it's not, but it's our home and we RESPECT that. I'm aware of the many atrocities on behalf of our country and it's government, and I'm not saying it's right or that I'm proud of what our gov't has done - but it's in the past and we can't change that. What we can change is the future and that's what needs to be done in our gov't. Rather than sit on my ass and ridicule my country and it's history, I work for it's future. I'm an american, and nothing can change that. So are you. You can accept it or live your life upset about it. Seems you choose to do the latter. I used to feel the same way - I hated America and everything it stood for. Then I traveled the world, lived in two foreign countries and woke up to how lucky I am to live where I do. Keep trolling
Edit: And coach, just doing my part to support you guys, you know you have always impressed me with your humbleness. Definately agree to disagree! Game on....
[ This Message was edited by: howitzer on 2002-08-29 13:02 ]
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justsendingits
Aug 29, 2002, 8:02 PM
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Free speach coach??--tell that 2 the people on the website of Rage against the machine.It got shut down shortly after 9-11 --guess the Goverment did not like what was being said!!
Power to the people!!!
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joel_gibbel
Aug 29, 2002, 8:02 PM
Post #148 of 197
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Howitzer and coach, thank you for leading a respectful discussion. I rather enjoy being challenged. Just to clarify, I am not condemning anyone who is in the military. It's more like I feel syorry for them, because they have been led to believe that war is actually a solution to problems and that foreign wars actually protect our freedoms. I condemn war. I am for peace. It goes beyond simply following the commandment "thou shalt not kill", it is truly the only way to try to end violence and hatred in the world. Lay down our guns, completely get rid of our weapons of mass destruction, and stop brainwashing young men into thinking that the military is a great way to serve others. To me, it is a great way to kill others while only serving America. I am American, but I like to think that every life in the world is just as valuable as any other. That is why I will never serve in the military or even own a gun.
[ This Message was edited by: joel_gibbel on 2002-08-29 13:14 ]
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howitzer
Aug 29, 2002, 8:13 PM
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Joel - well said, and I understand because I feel the same way about war. War is not something that I condone and wish it was not a part of our life. I'll be the first to admit there are some low-life's in the Military, too, justsendingits! I was a bartender at a bar 5 minutes from the Barracks. You can imagine the things I saw! But rather than feel sorry, I have respect for those who have gone before and in many instances HAD to fight whether they wanted to or not. My fiancee does not kill people. He does firing parties for veterans at Arlington Cemetary, as well as ceremonies for foreign dignitaries. He does not think that war is good, as a matter of fact he is against what is going on in Afghanistan right now. Thanks to you too, Joel, for saying what you want very calmly and cordially. -Abi
OK so back to the topic at hand - Gun Control! Let the games begin. I've said my peace.
[ This Message was edited by: howitzer on 2002-08-29 13:16 ]
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joel_gibbel
Aug 29, 2002, 8:17 PM
Post #150 of 197
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Well said, Abi. I guess we're not so different after all. Good debate, we should do it again sometime.
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