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coach
Aug 29, 2002, 8:17 PM
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just,
To clarify things a little, in the 1980's the military would just about take anyone that was breathing and add to that the fact that we were still trying to get over McNamara's 500,000 (if you know what they were). Today recruiters won't even talk to a person that isn't a high school graduate and category 4 mental groups are not taken at all. Today's equipment and procedures require a higher degree of mental capabilities than was needed even when I joined. Drugs is a quick ticket back to the civilian world (after some brig time) which was not the case when I first went into the service. Promotions to staff nco ranks require clean (squeeky clean!) records so that the riff raff are cleaned out. All of this has lead to a smarter force commanded by officers and staff ncos that are better today than ever before. It tough to get in and harder to stay but there is always a long line waiting to try.
I served 4 years in Naples, Italy in the 1980's (85-89), one year in London (92-93) and two years in Stuttgart, GE (93-95). I never saw the hatred of the local population you speak of. There were incidents that brought discredit upon our forces and they were dealt with harshly. If hatred did exist as you said then it was overcome somewhere along the way by kind acts of those that followed you.
We are not baby killers or rapists. I am not saying that those things don't happen sometime, they do. When they do, punishment of the offender should be the response and is. If you had that in your unit it was not the military that made them that way, they are nothing more than a reflection of the society they came from.
Climb On
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justsendingits
Aug 29, 2002, 8:58 PM
Post #152 of 197
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Ok,my apologies for the troll comments(baby kill,rape)I know all are not like that,but I think if you put a good person in the right situation,he is capable of doing things he would not even dreamed of! And a stray bullet can kill a baby as can a bomb droped from 30,000 feet!!
The unit I served in back in the day had one of the highest rates of discharge due to drugs.If you guys knew what I had to live through when I served,maybe you would understand why I am sooo jaded towards the military,trust me,it was horrific.Its a big part of the reason I hate fighting and guns!!!
Maybe the military has changed some,but I still don't believe it has changed drasticly.
And I still belive that(some) innocent soldiers are compromised by our Goverment,who do not have their(or ours)best intrest at heart.
The poor fight the rich mans wars!!
Check out the movie Reds!!!
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iridesantacruz
Aug 29, 2002, 9:03 PM
Post #153 of 197
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theres always some way to get around everything. Yes it will let less kids use gun, but for me thats bad. Though what happens, happens. Better me not shoot than people get killed.
chris
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coach
Aug 29, 2002, 9:35 PM
Post #154 of 197
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just,
You will get no argument from me about how our government uses the military today. To most of our politicians we are just a political tool to use for their wishes. They don't see the military as the "defenders" of America anymore but rather as a way to impose their will. That is wrong. When President Clinton wanted to send US troops to Bosnia Gen Colin Powell advised him not to do it. We could not win and would get mired into another conflict. Clinton promised to get the boys home by Christmas and that was in 1993. They are still there! Military personnel do not make policy, they follow what their civilian leadership tells them to do. If the military ever started to make up their own minds we would end up with a dictatorship. Watch the old movie "Seven Days in May". I may not have agreed with what the politicians decided to tell me to do but always had the option that if it ever compromised my values I could resign. I respect your views about not liking the military, it is not a life for everyone and I have no problems with those that don't like it. Just please don't brand us all. I can sympathise with what you went through in the early 1980's, I went through a lot of the problems in the early 1970's and it took a long time to clean it up. Keep up the dialogue, it helps to understand others point of view.
Climb On
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jeffe
Aug 29, 2002, 10:18 PM
Post #155 of 197
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Joel, let me try to make my point out again. If you were a victim of a violent crime and able to call for the police. If when the officer arrived, the actor's conduct required the officer to use deadly force to protect you. Have you used the officer as a tool to protect yourself? Do you have the right to defend yourself?
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justsendingits
Aug 29, 2002, 10:44 PM
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Coach,I imagine that we agree on these issues more than we disagree!!Once again I appoligize to all for my brash statements(not all cops are A holes,we need cops,and thank god they are there when we really need them!!!)!!Sorry Jmlangford,I owe you an apopolgy!
Im glad that someone can relate to what i went through,I got my ass kicked on a regular basis when i served.I was 17 years old when i went in,i am not proud of the way i was back then.I was a sheep and followed the way my elders acted when i got over there in Germany.Drinking,(which i don't anymore)raising hell,not taking advantage of travell,and experiencing the culture.
I do feel sorry for the young man who enters the military with lofty ideals,(see the movie born on the 4th of July)and then is used as a pawn for profit for corperations.
i used to be very,very patriotic,then I started reading and paying attention.
Love your country,fear your goverment!!
[ This Message was edited by: justsendingits on 2002-08-29 18:41 ]
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jmlangford
Aug 30, 2002, 4:34 AM
Post #157 of 197
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You anti-gunners should read this book. It might open your eyes.
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joel_gibbel
Aug 30, 2002, 2:13 PM
Post #158 of 197
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Jeffe, it is a policeman's job to defend the public and enforce criminal justice. I am in favor of criminal justice, but I won't take it into my own hands. One of the greatest rights we have in this country is a fair trial by jury. Who am I to decide if a criminal deserves to die just for committing a violent crime against me? I don't think anyone deserves to die for any crime. If a cop has to kill him, then so be it. I seek justice, not revenge.
And by the way, Ted Nugent is the devil. God, guns, and patriotism do not mix in my book (or God's book for that matter). I haven't read the book, but I'm sure it would really piss me off if I read it.
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howitzer
Aug 30, 2002, 2:25 PM
Post #159 of 197
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Joel, good explanation of the way you feel. I think where it gets mis-understood is what justice means to some folks. Some feel that if they found a man breaking into their house, and has killed their family - than their death is justice no matter who does the killing. I think that's where the difference is - Justice to you is different from what it is to others (many could argue that a 'fair' trial is an oxymoron and doesn't exist in these times). But I see your point.
JUSTSENDINITS - I want to thank you for your apology and explanation of your feelings and statements that have been made. I completely understand why you feel the way you do, and am much happier now knowing why it is that you have a somewhat 'skewed' view - I can only imagine what it must have been like for you. My fiancee feels much the same way about the USMC right now. He was dicked around here and brought up for corporal, then they cancelled it because of a PT score that was incorrect. Now they are transferring him to CA (3000 miles from me) after telling him all summer that he was going to stay here for the next 2 years... The gov't and higher ups control the grunts with empty promises and money. It's unreal. Fear your government is right! As is love your country. Glad to hear your story bro.
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coach
Aug 30, 2002, 3:09 PM
Post #160 of 197
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Joel, just and Abi,
Great dialogue! I think we found that if we continue to talk and not just rant that we can really find out why folks feel the way that do and understand them better. I respect all of you for having your opinions and by talking them out we may not agree but understand. I have so much more respect for each of you now than when this whole thread began. Keep it up! If any of you ever get down Texas way give me a shout and if I am ever in your neighborhood I will certainly let you know.
Climb On
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jeffe
Aug 30, 2002, 4:15 PM
Post #161 of 197
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Joel, I was talking the use of deadly force in self defense not vengance. My idea was to point out that a gun is simply one tool.
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jmlangford
Aug 31, 2002, 12:38 AM
Post #162 of 197
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" Jeffe, it is a policeman's job to defend the public..."
Sorry Joel, you are wrong on that one. For your state of Pennsylvania-"Police have NO duty to provide protection to specific individuals." Johnson v. City of Philadelphia, 657 A.2d 87, 89 (Pa. Commw. Ct. 1995).
An exception to this law is made when an officer makes a promise to protect a specific person. However, the above court ruling also immunized that officer from liability if he fails to carry out his promise.
Here is a true story from Philadelphia:
A fight between two groups started on 9/10/87 behind the home of Mae yates and her daughters Sylvia and Cynthia. The police came, talked to the two groups, and left. shortly the fighting resumed, and Mrs. Yates heard someone shout, "He's got a gun." Mrs. Yates called the police and was told a police unit would be sent out. Again, about 30 minutes later, Mrs. Yates heard someone shout, "He's got a gun." The police had not yet responded, so she called them back. Two police cars arrived on the scene, but the officers did not even get out of their cars or disperse the crowd. The police then left. When the police were gone, a shot was fired somewhere behind the Yates home where the fighting was. The bullet entered the home and killed young Sylvia. The court ruled that the Yates family could not sue the City of Philadelphia, "The general rule of law is that municipalities have no duty to protect a specific individual from the criminal act of third parties." Yates v. City of Philadelphia, 578 A.2d 609 (Pa. Commw. 1990).
[ This Message was edited by: jmlangford on 2002-08-30 17:58 ]
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dominator
Aug 31, 2002, 2:58 AM
Post #163 of 197
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Wow! A lot of good debate here and good info. Do I get some sort of award for longest running thread?LOL
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eowyn1025
Aug 31, 2002, 6:31 PM
Post #164 of 197
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nope! i think our religious debate ran longer than this...correct me if i'm wrong...
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jmlangford
Sep 1, 2002, 3:50 AM
Post #165 of 197
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What did I do? Did I chase everyone off this thread by stating facts? Who would have thunk it? I'm still waiting for an answer from Joel.
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jmlangford
Sep 2, 2002, 2:30 AM
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joel...On the subject of "thou shalt not kill"...the proper Hebrew and Greek translation is "thou shalt not murder". How come God helped David slay the giant Goliath? I think you are misguided on this one. It is immoral not to protect your family from harm. I am a Christian also, and I would have no trouble killing in self-defense. Please study what the scripture really means here.
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joel_gibbel
Sep 3, 2002, 1:26 PM
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Jody,
I understand the ten commandments, thank you. But kill or murder, there is often a fine line there depending on who you're asking. My question for you is, do you understand the new testament scriptures? Are the Old Testament scriptures not just that - OLD law? How about everything Jesus said in Matthew 5 about turning the other cheek, not resisting an evildoer, and loving your enemies. Do you understand this scripture, and is it not more important than the old law? Or maybe it's too radical for you that you think it doesn't really apply. Sadly, for far too many Christians it is. Not trying to make this a religious discussion, just my rebuttle. Thanks for listening.
[ This Message was edited by: joel_gibbel on 2002-09-03 10:46 ]
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jmlangford
Sep 3, 2002, 7:10 PM
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joel...If you look at the context of Matthew 5, it is The Beatitudes. The "turn the other cheek" scripture refers to if you are persecuted for Christ's sake. For instance, someone asks you if you believe in Christ and you say yes, they slap you upside the head, you are not to resist that. It ONLY refers to persecution for Christ's sake. Look at the scriptures at the beginning of Matthew 5. Verses 10,11-Blessed are those who are persecuted because of their righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.
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joel_gibbel
Sep 3, 2002, 7:24 PM
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Looks like you have your own interpretation, loose as it may be. I believe that Jesus meant what he said, and it wasn't just about persecution for acknowledging Christ. These are rules to live by, and they emcompass everything, including violence in general. Besides, what is righteousness? It is doing what is right. Be careful with bending scriptures to make them satisfactory to you. Take Jesus' word and follow it. Try reading Matthew 5 (all of it not just the beattitudes) again with an open mind. Watch yourself, and don't ever belittle Jesus' words.
Blessed are the peacemakers (No if ands or buts, just always be a peacemaker and not a violent warmaker. Or do you have a different interpretation?)
[ This Message was edited by: joel_gibbel on 2002-09-03 12:26 ]
[ This Message was edited by: joel_gibbel on 2002-09-03 12:29 ]
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jmlangford
Sep 3, 2002, 8:08 PM
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"Sorry, but I'm right and you're wrong. Watch yourself, and don't ever belittle Jesus' words..."
Joel, that doesn't sound like a statement made out of love and for sure wouldn't have come from Jesus' mouth!
You brought up the Old/New Law yourself. Not everything is as it seems on face value. You have to read it in the proper context. Matthew 5 was referring to personal insults, not physical attacks by someone assaulting you! No, it is not my personal interpretation. Just read the Greek text. Matthew 5 was an effort to keep someone from taking the law into their own hands-it was also intructions to the judges of the day to make the punishment fit the crime.
Why did Jesus tell his disciples to sell their cloak and buy a sword in Luke 22:36? He knew they would be attacked and he wanted them to defend themselves.
By the way, if an attacker comes at me and is intent on killing my family, what is more peaceful, me killing him so there is ONE person dead or just letting him kill over and over again? That is absoulutely ridiculous to say that you are making peace by allowing someone to kill repeatedly! You are ABSOLUTELY being a peacemaker by NOT allowing him to kill anymore!
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joel_gibbel
Sep 3, 2002, 8:19 PM
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I don't care what you say. I say we should never kill. It is wrong, plain and simple. If someone is intent on killing my family, I will put myself between him and my family, but not kill him. LOVE YOUR ENEMIES. You can put it in whatever context you want, but I'll take it literally, thank you very much. It sounds radical and it is. It is the word of the Lord.
Put your sword back in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword - Jesus
By the way, you just proved my point - we shoudln't take the law into our own hands. Like by killing criminals with our guns. Thank you.
[ This Message was edited by: joel_gibbel on 2002-09-03 13:21 ]
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jmlangford
Sep 3, 2002, 8:21 PM
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I'd rather die holding my sword than sucking my thumb!
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joel_gibbel
Sep 3, 2002, 8:25 PM
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Good one. I'll suck my thumb.
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jmlangford
Sep 3, 2002, 8:33 PM
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" I don't care what you say. I say we should never kill."
Hmmmm...notice the I? Sounds like personal opinion not based on Scripture.
Also, I did not prove your point. The scriptures were plainly talking about revenge after the fact. Let the courts take care of them. It clearly was not talking about the immediate threat of a criminal!
BTW, by putting yourself between a criminal and your family, aren't you provoking him to attack you? How is that being a "peacemaker".
I am not saying you HAVE to own guns, just don't impose that belief on those of us that feel OBLIGATED to own them to defend our families.
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joel_gibbel
Sep 3, 2002, 8:45 PM
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It is my opinion, but I arrived at it from reading scripture. I just firmly believe that having a gun cannot make any situation better. If I have to die to defend my family, then so be it. I will not kill on speculation that someone might try to kill them. That is sinking to his level, becoming a killer myself. I hope and pray that you never have to use your gun on anyone. And if you ever do kill someone, may God have mercy on your soul. Let's stop arguing now. Peace brother.
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