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ullr
May 9, 2006, 1:48 PM
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In reply to: Right now all indications are that the Park Service is pissed at DP and not the climbing community as a whole.
Fine, maybe the park won't change it's regulations. And maybe I'm the only one who is disturbed.
But in the end, the climbing community doesn't make the regulations, the park officials do. And it's alot harder to reverse restrictions than it is to tread lightly and keep the current priveleges intact.
I don't defecate in my backyard, and I would hope other climbers would realize it stinks when they do so, and it's not fun cleaning up the resulting mess.
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nuts_r_us
May 9, 2006, 2:00 PM
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What a dick.
If Potter was so convinced it was okay to do, he shouldn't have had a problem with asking the superintendent first to find out for sure.
Pissed about it? Call Patagonia and any other Potter sponsors and tell them you are boycotting their product and why. Anybody know who else sponsors him?
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rockprodigy
May 9, 2006, 2:05 PM
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You're not the only one who is dissapointed.
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killclimbz
May 9, 2006, 2:11 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Right now all indications are that the Park Service is pissed at DP and not the climbing community as a whole. Fine, maybe the park won't change it's regulations. And maybe I'm the only one who is disturbed. But in the end, the climbing community doesn't make the regulations, the park officials do. And it's alot harder to reverse restrictions than it is to tread lightly and keep the current priveleges intact. I don't defecate in my backyard, and I would hope other climbers would realize it stinks when they do so, and it's not fun cleaning up the resulting mess.
I agree. If people in the climbing community start to think that climbing Natural Arch is a cool thing to do then we have a problem.
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mackavus
May 9, 2006, 2:13 PM
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In reply to: This is not Community. Please elevate the discourse accordingly. Ullr, would you please consider changing your thread title to reflect my request? RC.com
To comply with J_ung's request, I will explain the reason for the Gay Thread pic.
What is your goal? Exactly what are you trying to accomplish here? My reason for the picture was not to defend Dean Potter, but to insult this thread and all threads like this in general. While I have mixed feelings about the entire situation, and although this may actually belong in "World Climbing News," I feel that creating a thread like this is just the first snowflake in an entire avalanche of lame, uninformed comments. I do not mean to insult the website here, but especially on RC.com. The "philosophers" are going to come out of the woodwork on this one.
I think that Killclimbz made come great points, but we all know that isn’t going to last. This thread is doomed. I could be partly to blame for that sure, but since I didn’t like this topic from the start, I guess I don’t care so much.
I actually am not "happy" that Potter did this, but I can understand his reasons. I do not necessarily "agree" with his reasons, but I can see why he did this.
(PS - The "Call Pata and tell them you are boycotting thier gear" comment was sickening)
Happy Flaming!
Peace. :D
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ullr
May 9, 2006, 2:18 PM
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^^^^My initial thread title was a knee jerk reflex from last night. It has since been edited. Sorry for the lack of composure in that arena.
I think the issue is bigger than the thread title.
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feanor007
May 9, 2006, 2:18 PM
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there goes my hero
watch him as he goes
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krusher4
May 9, 2006, 2:23 PM
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Where the pic?
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ullr
May 9, 2006, 2:25 PM
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If you doubt the parks high priority on conservation and visitor impacts, go visit the Fiery Furnace, when it's entry isn't being led by rangers.
-They make you sign out.
-Watch a 20+ minute video on low impact travel (walking on rocks-staying in washes-leaving no trace)
-They even go so far as to tell you to keep your voices down.
If this type of strict conservation doesn't tip you off on the possible impacts of climbing Delicate Arch, then you aren't very alert to your surroundings.
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ullr
May 9, 2006, 2:28 PM
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Folks get all up in arms over bolts at certain crags, bolt chopping, etc. But can't realize the possible consequences of pissing off park officials on multiple occasions.
Double standard?
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jakedatc
May 9, 2006, 2:29 PM
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Mack.. first.. i think J_ung should have addressed you instead of Ullr. Your posts are not helpful to this thread.
this is an access issue in the Moab region... illegally climbing places will only piss off the land managers and cause everyone to lose out. they could say "no climbing on any arch. period." and because of one person everyone would be effected.
Edit: i'd compare it to someone going out to Skytop at the gunks to shoot a commercial without asking the owners first.
as far as the Patagonia thing... i agree.. If they filmed him doing it for advertising purposes then they are trying to profit from him tresspassing. That should not be tolerated. Hopefully the park won't allow them to use the footage
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mackavus
May 9, 2006, 2:37 PM
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In reply to: Mack.. first.. i think J_ung should have addressed you instead of Ullr. Your posts are not helpful to this thread.
The original title of this thread was "Asshat Potter Climbs...etc."
My response of "gayness" was directly related to that title. Ullr has explained his position, and I have explained mine. You can find these at the bottom of page two. While I am just making my headache bigger by saying this, I dont think ANY POSTS are going to be HELPFUL to a THREAD LIKE THIS.
Ullr, I see why you had such a reaction about this and I will edit my post to kill the pic. Its the least I can do since you edited your title.
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brianinslc
May 9, 2006, 2:46 PM
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In reply to: this is an access issue in the Moab region... illegally climbing places will only piss off the land managers and cause everyone to lose out. they could say "no climbing on any arch. period." and because of one person everyone would be effected.
Ugh. I think its pretty common knowledge that named arches in Arches are off limits to climbing. Has been since I started climbing in Arches in the mid eighties.
Pretty high profile stunt. And, filmed, of course. I always get a kick out of these stunts, especially where the person that does them conveys some sort of spiritual connection or special-ness associated with the event. Seems diminished when it shows up on film. This could have been done low profile and privately. Also, other un named arches aren't off limits. Ugh. Selfish, IMHO.
No way Patagonia was involved. This could (and probably will) have a huge effect on their sponsership of maybe even both of them. I wonder, with the benefit of hindsite, if it'll be worth it.
Arch climbing used to be very popular, back in the 30's and on into the 50's and 60's. There's even a guidebook to the arches in Arches, written by Gerry Roach. Info below.
-Brian in SLC
Why would anyone want to climb an arch? Well, clearly arches have a lot of power and therefore it must be good to walk across them. It must be something about overcoming all that air. Volcanoes have a lot of power too, but arches are more easily done in shorts and tennis shoes and obviously that is a plus. Anyone who prefers wool pants and stiff boots should toss this book and head for Mt. St. Helens.
– Gerry Roach - from Arch Bagger
Arch Bagger
– A Scrambler’s Guide to Arches National Park
Gerry self-published Arch Bagger, his first book, in 1982. The 5.5 x 8.25 inch, soft-cover, 70-page guide describes scrambling routes to the top of 39 named arches plus the standard route to the top of Elephant Butte, the highest point in Arches National Park. The book has 21 black-and-white photographs and 18 illustrations. The guide describes how to get on top of the arches, but not how to find them. Gerry wrote Arch Bagger in a light-hearted, tongue-in-cheek style to make the book more about being free and exploring than about particular deeds.
After Gerry produced Arch Bagger, the National Park Service defined new rules for climbing in Arches National Park. Climbing is prohibited on any arch identified on current USGS 7.5 minute topographical maps but, with a few exceptions, is permitted elsewhere. This rule affects 16 of the 39 arches described in Arch Bagger. Presumably, it is legal to visit the tops of the other 23 arches described in Arch Bagger. Gerry doesn’t know how the park defines “climbing.” In his world, hiking is movement with a difficulty of Class 1 or Class 2, scrambling is movement with a difficulty of Class 3 and climbing is movement with a difficulty of Class 4 or Class 5. Using this definition, 4 of the 16 arches described in Arch Bagger on which climbing is prohibited are still accessible. Gerry has not pursued the matter with the park service, and it is best to err on the side of caution in this environmentally sensitive area.
Gerry printed a mere 300 copies of Arch Bagger, the tiny tome is long out of print, and it is very scarce.
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ullr
May 9, 2006, 3:25 PM
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In reply to: Pretty high profile stunt. And, filmed, of course. I always get a kick out of these stunts, especially where the person that does them conveys some sort of spiritual connection or special-ness associated with the event. Seems diminished when it shows up on film. This could have been done low profile and privately. Also, other un named arches aren't off limits. Ugh. Selfish, IMHO.
If he would have just climbed it sans publicity, sans park knowing about it, fine.
I'm just a little upset that it was documented by the media, and the park is fully aware of it. The media's coverage has undoubtable brought this beyond the park and climbers attention, and to the general publics attention with a somewhat negative tone to it.
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valeberga
May 9, 2006, 3:25 PM
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He used chalk? What a p***y little sporto.
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wzrdgandalf
May 9, 2006, 3:31 PM
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Im not mad at DP but mad at patagonia for alerting the media about it. How dumb can you be? They should have known what problems it would cause.
Where are the pics?
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adklimber
May 9, 2006, 3:32 PM
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In reply to: brianinslc wrote: Pretty high profile stunt. And, filmed, of course. I always get a kick out of these stunts, especially where the person that does them conveys some sort of spiritual connection or special-ness associated with the event. Seems diminished when it shows up on film. This could have been done low profile and privately. Also, other un named arches aren't off limits. Ugh. Selfish, IMHO.
I agree with this. I actually liked his reasoning for doing the climb, but it seems there is the pleasing the sponsor, self-notoriety, "look at me" motive going on.
With this said, it is easy to fall into this after a big accomplishment.
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dingus
May 9, 2006, 3:33 PM
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In reply to: Thanks Potter, for so visually giving climbers a bad reputation in the park. And thanks to the tool from the climbing shop who thought his climb should be praised. :roll:
Thus the free spirit of climbing is chained by corporate rule makers and their drones.
Fuck THAT!
I'm tired of this ambassador bullshit. I don't want none a yall button down, cardigan wearing Yale types representing me.
DMT
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ullr
May 9, 2006, 4:33 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Thanks Potter, for so visually giving climbers a bad reputation in the park. And thanks to the tool from the climbing shop who thought his climb should be praised. :roll: Thus the free spirit of climbing is chained by corporate rule makers and their drones. f--- THAT! I'm tired of this ambassador s---. I don't want none a yall button down, cardigan wearing Yale types representing me. DMT
It's got nothing to do with ambassadorship, I could give a shit who climbed it. Fact is, it was climbed, and the park was pissed about it.
Free spirit of climbing in ARCHES, is chained to some degree by Uncle Sam. Like it or not.
This isn't the 1970's fantasy land you're living in. We have potential consequences for our actions.
Remember Hueco? Used to be a great place in the good 'ol days.
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sierramike
May 9, 2006, 4:43 PM
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This guy is an ambassador for OUR sport (read: not only HIS love of nature, movement, etc.)? I hardly think so.
Just another scenario when a climber had the chance to shine in the eyes of a land manager and failed. Every place we climb has a land manager. Every place. These are the people we ALL must keep happy. Special use permits are issued for various situations. They could have issued one here and probably would have is this guy said they were filming something, low to zero impact, respect for the area, etc. Yet, he maintained his selfishness and did it solely for himself without regard to future climbers and their relationship with land managers.
I'm not naive enough to believe we don't all climb for ourselves, however, in today's society in which we all live (this guy more than others as he's sponsored, a "representative") we must work with others if we wish to continue climbing, kayaking, backcountry skiing, and every other outdoor venture that we live for. This guy definitely didn't do us any favors.
Just my .02.
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wyomingclimber
May 9, 2006, 4:44 PM
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Got this from the Access fund. If you have any plans to ever climb in Arches, you might want to contact Patagonia and let them know your feelings. In my exprience with the park service, there is no winning with them. It only takes one grandstanding jackass (and his personal photographer) to blow it for everyone.
http://www.patagonia.com/custserv/contact_us.shtml?src=botnav
From the access fund:
The hits just keep coming from the Dean Potter show – first thumbing his nose at the NPS re slacklining in the 3 Gossips – and now this – EVERYONE knows this is illegal – he must be really interested in provoking them – Potter: the human climbing access issue
Delicate Arch climb has park chief red in the face
By Lisa J. Church
Special to The Tribune
Dean Potter climbs Delicate Arch, one of the most popular sandstone arches, at Arches National Parkearly Sunday. Authorities are not amused. (Photo courtesy of Dean Potter)
MOAB - For almost 12 years, Dean Potter studied the tiny cracks and crevices in Delicate Arch, searching out potential fingerholds and footholds that could aid his ascent of Utah's most famous icon.
On Sunday morning, Potter, a professional climber known for his speed and agility, put that research to the test, successfully scaling the 45-foot monument "free solo" - without the aid of ropes and other climbing gear. But the 34-year-old part-time Moab resident's achievement doesn't sit well with National Park Service officials and some fellow climbing enthusiasts.
"I'm very sorry to see someone do this to Utah's most visible icon," said the park's superintendent, Laura Joss. "I would just ask if they think it's a good idea to encourage this."
Potter believed that as long as he used no fixed anchors and did not damage the rock, he was free to climb Delicate Arch.
Not so, says Joss.
It was an idea that Potter, a climbing ambassador for outdoor-gear company Patagonia, could not get out of his head.
"For the past four years or so, I've been going up there kind of obsessively and looking at it in every possible light," Potter said Tuesday. "When I realized I was going to try this, I started going out to it more and more frequently."
Feeling his way along the rock face early Sunday morning, Potter inched his way to the top of Delicate Arch, stood on the flat, wide shelf and looked out over the Moab Valley.
"This was one of the most beautiful climbs I've ever done," Potter said. "For me, it was just an overwhelming experience, as if the formation was vibrating with energy."
Once atop the arch, Potter lowered a string to retrieve a climbing rope to make his descent. He says he climbed Delicate Arch "several times in a two-hour period." Even one time is too many, Joss said.
"The intent of our [regulations] is that all named arches are closed to climbing," Joss said. "If the compendium is found not to be sufficient, we will work with our solicitor posthaste to put a closure on Delicate Arch immediately."
Arches allows climbing in some areas, and Joss said that in the past climbers have respected the rules, which include prohibitions on climbing the park's most famous rock formations.
Matt Moore, owner of Desert Highlights, a climbing outfitter in Moab, said he has always understood that park regulations prohibit climbing on Delicate Arch.
"Probably every climber looks at it and thinks it would be great to climb Delicate Arch," Moore said. "On the one hand, it was probably a great ascent for Dean, but at the same time, I can't condone it because it is against park regulations."
Patagonia's publicity department initially alerted the media to Potter's ascent, but indicated it may back off on further promotions after learning that Potter may have broken park service regulations.
His Delicate Arch ascent marks the second time in as many years that Potter has come to the attention of Arches officials. The park recently changed its regulations to prohibit "slacklining" - a sport in which flexible nylon rope is stretched between two points, often over a steep fissure, and walked like a tightrope - after Potter slacklined the Three Gossips, another well-known rock formation in the park, Joss said.
Potter said he took great care to leave Delicate Arch undisturbed, and he is unapologetic about undertaking the challenge.
"I am very conscientious about following nature's rules. I respected the arch to the fullest. I did no more than blow a little dust off a few handholds," Potter said. "What has our world come to if we cannot join nature by climbing one of nature's most beautiful features?"
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ullr
May 9, 2006, 4:47 PM
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I wonder if the 'film crew' had a permit to film in the NPS? For some reason, I doubt they did.
But I bet we'll still see this footage next year.
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sidepull
May 9, 2006, 4:48 PM
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Obviously I'm coming to this post post-edits and so some of the discussion is confusing because the context has changed. I'm glad the moderators have tried to help tone things down so that we can have a reasonable discussion. To that end, I completely disagree with Mackavus - this type of topic is precisely the reason for the existence of an online community, so that we can discuss and better understand issues that we all face.
Here are my thoughts:
1) Potter's ascent seems more ego driven than most bolting and chipping. I have definitely lost respect for him because his climb shows a lack of respect for the climbing community and the community at large.
2) Using white chalk on Delicate Arch is plain tacky and just begs others to repeat the stunt.
3) There are hints in other posts that Patagonia some how sponsored this climb? Is there any evidence of this? At the very least I think this stunt should cause Patagonia to question their sponsorship of Potter - I don't think he's a good advocate for their values. If Patagonia is at all complicit in the climb (i.e. involved in filming, using photographs in upcoming catalogues, etc.) then they too have lost some of my respect as a company.
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ullr
May 9, 2006, 4:49 PM
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If his acent was filmed commercially, then the videographers need permits to film in the park.
Wonder if they obtained such a permit?
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tavs
May 9, 2006, 4:51 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Thanks Potter, for so visually giving climbers a bad reputation in the park. And thanks to the tool from the climbing shop who thought his climb should be praised. :roll: Thus the free spirit of climbing is chained by corporate rule makers and their drones. f--- THAT! I'm tired of this ambassador s---. I don't want none a yall button down, cardigan wearing Yale types representing me. DMT
When he brought the film crew along and publicized the event, he made himself an ambassador of some kind.
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