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AZrockclimber1988
Jun 21, 2007, 6:54 AM
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I was wondering what your opinions are on the magic plate devices (BD ATC Guide and Petzl Reverso), to belay a second.
Michael
(This post was edited by AZrockclimber1988 on Jun 21, 2007, 7:13 AM)
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mattltambor
Jun 21, 2007, 8:46 AM
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Magic? I'm guessing you meant Auto-block. They're great if you get to know them. I like my gri-gri for a direct belay bringing up a second but I suppose it is heavier than a tube device - not to mention more expensive. Plus I usually end up bringing both my gri-gri and my ATC up the wall so I don't have to rappel on the gri-gri. So far weight hasn't been an issue but I'm guessing that when it is, I might leave the gri-gri on the ground. Lowering can be a little tricky with the auto-block tube devices but not so much that it's impractical - like I said, you just have to get used to them. Either way, just find something that you're comfortable with and feel safe using and you're good to go.
-Matt
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cantbuymefriends
Jun 21, 2007, 9:35 AM
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AZrockclimber1988 wrote: I was wondering what your opinions are on the magic plate devices (BD ATC Guide and Petzl Reverso), to belay a second. Michael
My suggestion is that you start out with the 100+ posts about ATC Guide/XP and the 70+ posts about Reverso/Reversino in the Gear Reviews section.
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microbarn
Jun 21, 2007, 11:26 AM
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AZrockclimber1988 wrote: I was wondering what your opinions are on the magic plate devices (BD ATC Guide and Petzl Reverso), to belay a second. Michael
I use the B-52. It works well, and I like the convenience. You really have to work some thicker ropes to get them through the device, but this makes me feel even more secure on the thiinner ropes that most people use.
matt had some good things to say. He has a good point about ensuring you are comfortable with what you take out.
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reg
Jun 21, 2007, 11:53 AM
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AZrockclimber1988 wrote: I was wondering what your opinions are on the magic plate devices (BD ATC Guide and Petzl Reverso), to belay a second. Michael
where'd you get that term - "magic plate" ??
this is troll-esk but i'll say this: you should be familiar with common belay techniques - tube devices - before branching into auto blocks or grigri's, etc.
the auto blocks should be backed up with a munter when set up for lowering - sometimes a second will need to reverse ah bit to clean or whatever and you could drop the climber if your not familar with these techniques.
i use the reverso and appreciate the auto block function but don't always use it.
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j_ung
Jun 21, 2007, 12:54 PM
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I use my ATC Guide almost exclusively for pretty much everything. I also loved the B-52 I had before this. I was pretty fond of my Reverso... until I bought the B-52.
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reg
Jun 21, 2007, 1:56 PM
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j_ung wrote: I use my ATC Guide almost exclusively for pretty much everything. I also loved the B-52 I had before this. I was pretty fond of my Reverso... until I bought the B-52.
J_ung: what about it makes it better?
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reg
Jun 21, 2007, 2:37 PM
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mr_rogers wrote: reg wrote: where'd you get that term - "magic plate" ?? One of the first "guide plate" belay devices was the "Plaquette" or "Plaquette Magique" (Magic Plate). [img]http://www.needlesports.com/acatalog/newalpmagicplate.jpg[/img] I'm more curious as to why "autoblock" is used when there's already a knot with that name.
ok - i use to use a stitch plate:
still carry it as a backup. - thanks
edit: - ok - how do you post the image? i tried ".img/img" braketed and the words bracketed - i'm so confused
(This post was edited by reg on Jun 21, 2007, 2:41 PM)
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anykineclimb
Jun 21, 2007, 2:46 PM
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mr_rogers wrote: reg wrote: where'd you get that term - "magic plate" ?? One of the first "guide plate" belay devices was the "Plaquette" or "Plaquette Magique" (Magic Plate). [img]http://www.needlesports.com/acatalog/newalpmagicplate.jpg[/img] I'm more curious as to why "autoblock" is used when there's already a knot with that name.
because they do the same thing?
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cantbuymefriends
Jun 21, 2007, 2:48 PM
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reg wrote: mr_rogers wrote: reg wrote: where'd you get that term - "magic plate" ?? One of the first "guide plate" belay devices was the "Plaquette" or "Plaquette Magique" (Magic Plate). [img]http://www.needlesports.com/acatalog/newalpmagicplate.jpg[/img] I'm more curious as to why "autoblock" is used when there's already a knot with that name. ok - i use to use a stitch plate: still carry it as a backup. - thanks edit: - ok - how do you post the image? i tried ".img/img" braketed and the words bracketed - i'm so confused
I was gonna say "Remove the dot in the first pair of brackets.".
But that won't work for you 'cause RC.com still can't (hopefully!!!) access your hard-drive.
(I.e. you need to upload the pic to RC.com photo archive, photobucket.com or something similar, or find an already existing photo on internet to link to.)
Edit for spelling, and to express my surprise that neither the dot in the first image-bracket nor the picture show up...?
(This post was edited by cantbuymefriends on Jun 21, 2007, 2:51 PM)
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j_ung
Jun 21, 2007, 2:50 PM
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reg wrote: j_ung wrote: I use my ATC Guide almost exclusively for pretty much everything. I also loved the B-52 I had before this. I was pretty fond of my Reverso... until I bought the B-52. J_ung: what about it makes it better?
I had always been cautious about using the Reverso, a pretty low-friction device, with thin ropes and after a while I started to worry a bit about catching any hard fall, even with a thick cord. I had gotten used to how it locks up a little when feeding rope quickly.
Then I bought a B-52, and WOW. Feeding rope was like an entirely different activity. I loved it.
About six months later I began to worry a bit when the top end of my B-52 started getting thinner and thinner. I bought a new one and, all of a sudden, I was having trouble pulling rope through it while belaying top ropes. It might have been it's anodization, which was different from the last one I had. I decided to replace it right about the same time the ATC Guide hit the shelves, so I gave it a whirl. I was happily surprised that it seemed to do pretty much everything well.
None of them are as easy to release in autoblock mode as they might have us believe, but the Guide seems to be the easiest. It also has a few neat little tricks it does, like its Gri-gri imitation for TR belays, and the choice between notched and un-notched sides.
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summerprophet
Jun 21, 2007, 2:51 PM
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I am pretty happy with my BD ATC guide.
PROS
Good Rap device for Thick and thin ropes. Stable feel even when rapping a 10.5 paired with an 8.5.
Can easilly simul-belay two climbers in autoblock mode.
Not much heavier than typical belay bevice.
Can still belay direct from the harness (non-autoblock)
CONS
Difficult to simul-belay on older or thicker ropes (10.2 would be my recommended max)
Autoblock setup works best if you can build an anchor node point at shoulder height or higher.
Have to swap from autoblock to regular if swapping leads.
I like mine, and would buy it again if I needed to.
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cantbuymefriends
Jun 21, 2007, 2:55 PM
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j_ung wrote: ... About six months later I began to worry a bit when the top end of my B-52 started getting thinner and thinner. I bought a new one and, all of a sudden, I was having trouble pulling rope through it while belaying top ropes. It might have been it's anodization, which was different from the last one I had. I decided to replace it right about the same time the ATC Guide hit the shelves, so I gave it a whirl. I was happily surprised that it seemed to do pretty much everything well. ...
Strange, cause I have just the same problem, pulling through rope when belaying from above in auto-block mode, with my new ATC Guide...?
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j_ung
Jun 21, 2007, 3:01 PM
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Huh. Can't say I have any trouble with it. Do you use a thick rope, perhaps?
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paulraphael
Jun 21, 2007, 4:35 PM
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I love the design and simplicity and weight of the B-52, but was never sold on its performance. I found that while rapelling with medium ropes it offered barely enough friction, and with skinny half ropes not nearly enough. This is unfortunate, because Trango's technical information suggests that the device creates MORE friction with skinny ropes (now THAT would be a magic plate ...)
So I've switched to the ATC guide and love it. It's smoother and more predictable, works brilliantly with 10mm singles and 8.1 doubles, and autoblocks effortlessly. Only downsides are weight (massive!) and design (ugly!). if someone could combine the performance of the guide with the sleek design of the B52, I'd love them forever.
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anykineclimb
Jun 21, 2007, 4:40 PM
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I bought the reverso a couple years abck and wasn't too impressed with it. namely, the friction sucked. I had a death grip on the rope on long rappels adn after decided to get rid of it. I guess its been improved upon since but I prefer the B52 and just bought my 3rd one.
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paulraphael
Jun 21, 2007, 4:45 PM
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I'm curious to know from people who like the B52 how much you weigh. I weigh about 190 lbs and find the friction lacking (and the Reverso hopeless). Maybe the B52 is ideal for lighter climbers.
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paulraphael
Jun 21, 2007, 4:48 PM
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Has anyone used the Mammut Matrix? looks like a cool device but I've never seen a review.
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anykineclimb
Jun 21, 2007, 5:37 PM
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Paul, I've been pretty intruiged by the Matrix. I'd like to try one out.
As for your other question, I weigh about 170. I've belayed partners about your size with little trouble
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mr_rogers
Jun 22, 2007, 9:21 PM
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mr_rogers wrote: I'm more curious as to why "autoblock" is used when there's already a knot with that name.
anykineclimb wrote: because they do the same thing?
You can rap and belay two seconds with an autoblock knot? You'll have to show me that! I've only been using it as a friction knot.
If I'd known it was so versatile....
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majid_sabet
Jun 22, 2007, 10:28 PM
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Go to Home Depot and ask them to cut you one large and one small chain link
use that instead and does THE SAME EXACT THING for $1
[URL=http://imageshack.us]
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paulraphael
Jun 24, 2007, 2:32 AM
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Why would anyone pay $1 for that? You can rig a perfectly good autoblock for nearly free with a length of iron pipe, a hockey puck, an old broom handle, and some used brake cable from a bike.
majid_sabet wrote: Go to Home Depot and ask them to cut you one large and one small chain link use that instead and does THE SAME EXACT THING for $1 [URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/2420/istockphoto897579chainlmh9.jpg[/IMG] |
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anykineclimb
Jun 24, 2007, 4:18 AM
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mr_rogers wrote: mr_rogers wrote: I'm more curious as to why "autoblock" is used when there's already a knot with that name. anykineclimb wrote: because they do the same thing? You can rap and belay two seconds with an autoblock knot? You'll have to show me that! I've only been using it as a friction knot. If I'd known it was so versatile....
they both do the same thingin that they allow movement of the rope in one direction while preventing movement in the other.
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notch
Jun 24, 2007, 8:26 PM
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paulraphael wrote: Why would anyone pay $1 for that? You can rig a perfectly good autoblock for nearly free with a length of iron pipe, a hockey puck, an old broom handle, and some used brake cable from a bike. majid_sabet wrote: Go to Home Depot and ask them to cut you one large and one small chain link use that instead and does THE SAME EXACT THING for $1 [URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/2420/istockphoto897579chainlmh9.jpg[/IMG]
TROPHY
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cantbuymefriends
Jun 25, 2007, 1:20 PM
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j_ung wrote: Huh. Can't say I have any trouble with it. Do you use a thick rope, perhaps? |
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el_layclimber
Jul 7, 2007, 7:32 PM
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paulraphael wrote: Why would anyone pay $1 for that? You can rig a perfectly good autoblock for nearly free with a length of iron pipe, a hockey puck, an old broom handle, and some used brake cable from a bike. majid_sabet wrote: Go to Home Depot and ask them to cut you one large and one small chain link To Paul: We have all already uncovered your real identity,MacGuyver  but you are obviously rusty on your lines, I believe it's "Iron pipe, a hockey puck, an old broom handle and some used brake cable....it just might work." To Majid: In all seriousness, how does one rig chain links as an autolock? Purely for the sake of intellectual interest, I would like to know.
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Valarc
Jul 7, 2007, 8:11 PM
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The matrix is still available for sale on a few websites - however, it's advertised as being specifically made for thinner ropes, so keep that in mind when picking and choosing.
I've been on a sort of quest for the perfect autoblocking belay device - not so much because I need it, but because I'm intrigued by the physics of these little things, and how seemingly minor design tweaks can totally alter the handling of a device. Here are a few I've tried:
BD ATC Guide: A good solid device, and the extra loop allows you to lower a second, which is good, but it can take some convoluted rigging to actually USE this loop. However, if you ever climb on fat ropes, I would stay away. The guide was almost useless on big fat gym ropes, and pretty sticky on a 10.3 beal rope.
Simond Toucan: This thing is just plain weird. However, the flipping lever is pretty nifty for lowering a second with no extra rigging. Much like the BD Guide, I found it to be sticky on fat gym ropes. In this case, the ropes were getting wedged in the friction grooves, so changing your belay technique could very well eliminate the stickyness. To me it wasn't worth the effort to change my technique. I still like it better than the BD Guide. If you can find it in the US, it's gonna be expensive. I got mine on clearance for ten bucks from REI. If you go into an REI store, they can check the stock at other stores in the country and possibly mail it directly to you.
Cassin Piu/GTC: I just bought this one. There is no place to rig to help lower a second, but you can work around that. I haven't tested it very much so I can't give much of an impression on rope handling, but playing around with it at home it seems a lot smoother to feed than the BD or Simond offerings. That probably means it'll also have less friction than those devices, but I'll have to wait and see how it works when I've tried it out some more. Not available anywhere I've found in the US. I got mine from barrabes.com, because they have pretty good shipping rates to the US, and I wanted to try out a few other wacky euro gadgets while I was at it. All signs point towards this being my favorite device of the bunch.
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wings
Jul 7, 2007, 10:29 PM
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paulraphael wrote: Has anyone used the Mammut Matrix? looks like a cool device but I've never seen a review.
I own a Mammut Matrix and do not like to use it because it tends to lock up while feeding when lead belaying.
In general, I think the Trango B-52 (old version) is the best autoblocking belay device available, and I've used and own many of them. The only drawback, in my opinion, is the need to use 3 carabiners when in autoblock mode on double / twin ropes (one for the rope, two for hanging the device off of your anchor).
- Seyil
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skinner
Jul 8, 2007, 6:56 PM
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reg wrote: where'd you get that term - "magic plate" ?? this is troll-esk..
I'm guessing that he might have picked up the term "Magic" from the Trango Magic APD which is sort of a combination of a figure 8 and slotted type belay device.
or..
mr_rogers wrote: reg wrote: where'd you get that term - "magic plate" ?? One of the first "guide plate" belay devices was the "Plaquette" or "Plaquette Magique" (Magic Plate).  reg wrote: ok - i use to use a stitch plate: I still do.. dispite my collection of belay devices, because of it's size, simplicity, and the fact that it works so well with smaller diameter double ropes. For interest sake (of those who haven't seen it yet).. Dr. Gary Storricks collection of over 1000 rappelling and ascending devices, breaks " Belay Devices" into the following categories: Slotted "Sticht" Belay Plates These are devices that are essentially flat plates with one or two slots that are used like a Sticht Plate. Other Belay Plates This includes plate belay devices that do not function like Sticht plates. Slotted Blocks This includes belay devices (other than belay tubes) that function in the same way as Sticht plates, but have irregular top and or bottom surfaces. Belay Tubes This includes Tubers, ATCs, and similar devices that have tall slots with thin walls. Lever Box Belay Devices This includes the Grigri, Cinch, and similar devices that enclose the rope and have control levers. Solo Climbing Self Belay Devices Belay devices for roped solo climbing. Miscellaneous Everything else, including some nice devices. You'll even find the Home Depot Chain Link in there. Most of the devices include Technical details, Comments, and sometimes the Pros & Cons of each device, although many of the comments are his personel opinion, he brings up many good points about friction, heat dissipation, functionality, and durability.
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paulraphael
Jul 9, 2007, 3:15 AM
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good god, some of this guy's toys actually look like my McGyver wisecrack:
http://storrick.cnchost.com/VerticalDevicesPage/Glance/GlancePages/Glance5.html
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el_layclimber
Jul 9, 2007, 4:46 AM
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Would love to rap in to a crowded area on one of those just to freak out some squares. On the main page, I am pretty sure I also see a teton.
I can see how the chain links could double as a belay plate, my question was regarding Majid's comment that seemed to imply that two chain links could be used to make an auto-blocker. I've seen a two-biner auto blocker, but can't figure out how I'd fashion one out of chain links.
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skinner
Jul 9, 2007, 8:20 AM
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el_layclimber wrote: Would love to rap in to a crowded area on one of those just to freak out some squares. On the main page, I am pretty sure I also see a teton. I can see how the chain links could double as a belay plate, my question was regarding Majid's comment that seemed to imply that two chain links could be used to make an auto-blocker. I've seen a two-biner auto blocker, but can't figure out how I'd fashion one out of chain links.
Ya, I'd like to hear it too! I know how I would "try" to do it, no idea if it would work or not, but I imagine that you'd pull the rope through the center of the bigger link which you'd clip onto your harness, then pull the rope through the center of the smaller link and clip a biner onto the loop of rope to act as the break bar. Then let Majid jump off of a cliff with it to see if it works.
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stymingersfink
Jul 25, 2007, 7:55 AM
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skinner wrote: el_layclimber wrote: Would love to rap in to a crowded area on one of those just to freak out some squares. On the main page, I am pretty sure I also see a teton. I can see how the chain links could double as a belay plate, my question was regarding Majid's comment that seemed to imply that two chain links could be used to make an auto-blocker. I've seen a two-biner auto blocker, but can't figure out how I'd fashion one out of chain links. Ya, I'd like to hear it too! I know how I would "try" to do it, no idea if it would work or not, but I imagine that you'd pull the rope through the center of the bigger link which you'd clip onto your harness, then pull the rope through the center of the smaller link and clip a biner onto the loop of rope to act as the break bar. Then let Majid jump off of a cliff with it to see if it works.
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sungam
Jul 25, 2007, 11:51 AM
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Ah, now I understand, MS, you're running out of things to post about, so you decided to spice it up and get some people into making you some new matirial?
Fair 'nuff.
-MagnuS
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sixleggedinsect
Sep 11, 2007, 2:46 PM
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stymingersfink wrote: pretty simple, really. Use the top link to attach to the anchor, use the bottom link to rig the rope through, with the brake side of the rope lying under the climber side of the rope. Pretty much the same manner that the rope would be situated if placed properly within the atc-guide for auto-block belaying of a seconding climber.
im a little slow- help me out. are you saying use chain links, or *quick* links? i can see making an autoblock out of QLs, or out of one large chain link (as the plate) and a couple biners, but chain links only? i can only see doing it if you untie the rope and thread it through, which would be silly.
what is the second chain link for? and why are they different sizes?
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sixleggedinsect
Sep 11, 2007, 2:47 PM
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and why is this thread in the lab at all? this is a gear forum question.
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angry
Sep 11, 2007, 2:54 PM
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billcoe_
Sep 12, 2007, 4:24 AM
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Majid: Damn it! This is the second time I've seen you recommend this.
I have used chain. Works great.
BUT, you are potentially setting someone up to die if they follow your incomplete advice get the wrong size and strength, and you don't mention a thing about it.
Wasn't it actually the 3/8 diameter, welded steel lifting chain which was the schiz?
Double check it and get back to us with the full meal deal and include red and green arrows if you would like next time.
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stymingersfink
Sep 12, 2007, 5:13 AM
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sixleggedinsect wrote: stymingersfink wrote: pretty simple, really. Use the top link to attach to the anchor, use the bottom link to rig the rope through, with the brake side of the rope lying under the climber side of the rope. Pretty much the same manner that the rope would be situated if placed properly within the atc-guide for auto-block belaying of a seconding climber. im a little slow- help me out. are you saying use chain links, or *quick* links? i can see making an autoblock out of QLs, or out of one large chain link (as the plate) and a couple biners, but chain links only? i can only see doing it if you untie the rope and thread it through, which would be silly. what is the second chain link for? and why are they different sizes?
I would not thread the rope through the link per se, but a loop would need to be pulled through the link to clip the biner to, just like any other tube-style belay device.
agreed that perhaps this would be more pertinent in the Gear Forum, but this is where it's at now, so this is where the replies may continue to accumulate.
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