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rockmaninoff
Oct 13, 2007, 8:10 PM
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My last time out, my partner took a 40-foot lead fall with 3 pieces in. He was OK, and everything held, but if one piece of the 3 would have failed, he would have hit the deck for sure. I feel like we were both experienced placing pro, and that was what saved him. He placed each piece to anticipate direction of pull.
That said, are there any other experienced trad climbers out there that have fallen, and had an intermediate (not the top) piece pull? Has that ever made a significant difference in the outcome of the fall?
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coastal_climber
Oct 14, 2007, 1:20 AM
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Sometimes gear zippers, bottom to top. As long as the top piece is high enough up and holds, you should be good, although, you want all the pieces in for best protection. Your bottom piece should be able to hold a good downward and outward pull.
>Cam
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healyje
Oct 14, 2007, 1:36 AM
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If an intermmediate piece pulls it was either placed too far to the side or was inadequetely slung. Cams, nuts, anything - it doesn't matter - slinging is still important, and has more to do with the overall system/rope path than with the type of individual placement. Piece-by-piece you're building a system and every placement needs to work for and within that system. An intermediate piece pulling is highly undesirable, especially when it's the middle of three...
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stymingersfink
Oct 14, 2007, 1:40 AM
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If your top piece is the only thing between you and the ground, you're probably not placing enough gear. Granted, on many climbs well within your limits things may tend to get run out, but the practice of keeping at least two pieces of gear between the climber and potential ground-fall is a prudent one.
I've had intermediate pieces lift out after placing more gear above, but with the exception of aid climbing I haven't seen an intermediate piece pull as a direct result of a fall. Not to say that it can't happen though.
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rockmaninoff
Oct 14, 2007, 5:27 AM
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Aha.
First of all, I asked if anyone had personally witnessed a middle piece failing during a fall, not a gear analysis. Only my fellow man from UT, stymi, replied with a logical response.
Second, advice such as "as long as the top piece is high enough and holds, you should be good" is patently false. On a meandering route, there is no such thing as a single "high enough" top piece that will save your skin.
I agree that in placing pro you are building a system. Sometimes failure of a key component of a system can spell disaster, and in climbing I personally try to avoid putting my eggs in one basket.
This climb was a C-shaped crack with a long runout slab at the top. Pro was placed at the bottom, middle, and top of the C at available intervals. My pard fell at the top of the runout, and the failure of the middle piece of pro would probably have spelt his doom.
Advice such as "Don't fall at the top of a runout," and, "Sometimes gear can zipper," are not what I'm going for here.
Now that we have analysis out of the way, has anybody witnessed an intermediate piece pulling during a fall? What were the consequences?
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scottb
Oct 14, 2007, 5:46 AM
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rockmaninoff wrote: has anybody witnessed an intermediate piece pulling during a fall? What were the consequences?
Yes.
Nothing.
The piece that pulled was a shit nut that didn't have a long enough sling on an 'R' route. The route is straight up and down so the piece pulling had no effect on the path of the rope. Anyway, that probably didn't help you much, but that's what happened...
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rockmaninoff
Oct 14, 2007, 5:49 AM
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That's exactly what I'm asking for.
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caughtinside
Oct 14, 2007, 6:28 AM
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I've seen intermediate pieces pop. Inadeqately slung and set nuts. I was belaying. My partner took a lead fall, the top piece caught him, and the two pieces below that, both nuts, popped right out. It was sketch because the top piece was then really the only thing between him and the deck. One piece between him and the ground. There was gear in lower, but it wouldn't have caught him before he hit the ground.
So I lowered him and he re led the pitch. He set the nuts harder and slung them longer on round two.
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gramps
Oct 14, 2007, 6:32 AM
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What is this, a reading comprehension quiz? People are just trying to be helpful. Obviously an intermediate piece popping could add length to the fall if it is out of line with the rest of the placements. And sure, intermediate pieces can pop if they experience a sideways or upwards force during the fall, that they weren't set up to handle. What are you looking for here?
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healyje
Oct 14, 2007, 7:15 AM
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rockmaninoff profile comment wrote: ...I love the outdoor experience of climbing, preferring easy trad over difficult sport, though I enjoy both. I also revel in the technical aspect of climbing, and have studied climbing techniques for about ten years.
Really? You ask about the consequences of any random intermediate piece pulling on any random climb? And then claim to 'revel in the technical aspects of climbing'?
Would that be when the answers don't tax you? Or are you simply looking for a random answer to a random intermediate piece pulling on a random climb that has nothing to do with the climb you did or the next climb you will do? Or are you looking for permission, or for someone to simply say 'nothing happened to me...!'?
Any comfort you might derive from such pointless commentary will be entirely misplaced. It's a f#ckup when a piece blows and collossal f#ckup if it's the middle of three - especially when the third one has a runout on top of it - good thing it didn't happen.
As it was your bro was good or got lucky - I don't know which, but I suggest you save your 'reveling' until you understand exactly why your question is completely irrelevant to the next route you'll do...
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8flood8
Oct 14, 2007, 2:16 PM
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coastal don't you mean be able to hold a good upward and outward pull?
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8flood8
Oct 14, 2007, 2:21 PM
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CMon healyje, you are getting a bit excited and pulling that comment out of context.
he can revel in the technical aspect of climbing for 20 years and still not know everything.
Do YOU know EVERYTHING about climbing?
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fulton
Oct 14, 2007, 4:46 PM
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I concider every piece to be intermediate in a way--that is to say--I always try to place gear frequently enough that should the top piece fail, that I'm not going to hit the ground or a ledge. You know, gear does blow -- so I double up before a crux and after a runout. Per the standard mutually exclusive adage, this is understood as the "old" rather than the "bold" way to go about it.
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fulton
Oct 14, 2007, 4:56 PM
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You say he placed 3 pieces of gear and fell 40 feet.
From how high did he fall ?
and how far from the deck was he after the fall was arrested ?
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coastal_climber
Oct 14, 2007, 5:05 PM
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8flood8 wrote: coastal don't you mean be able to hold a good upward and outward pull?
Yes, sorry.
>Cam
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sspssp
Oct 15, 2007, 3:27 AM
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rockmaninoff wrote: That said, are there any other experienced trad climbers out there that have fallen, and had an intermediate (not the top) piece pull? Has that ever made a significant difference in the outcome of the fall?
If you ask a question that is within the realm of the possible, the answer is almost always going to be yes, it has happened to somebody. I'm not sure it gains you much, perhaps a fun discussion.
I had a partner that pulled an intermediate cam out on a wandering alpine route. It caused a big "zig-zag" of rope to shorten and perhaps added ten feet or more to his fall. He had a long sling in but his next piece was a long ways (20+ feet or so?) to the right.
He thought it would have held a straight down fall, but that the sidewise, up pull twisted it out. But who's to say? On loose alpine routes, the best placements you can find aren't always that reassuring. At least the piece he fell on was solid.
(This post was edited by sspssp on Oct 15, 2007, 3:30 AM)
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medicus
Oct 15, 2007, 3:33 AM
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rockmaninoff wrote: Now that we have analysis out of the way, has anybody witnessed an intermediate piece pulling during a fall? What were the consequences?
Yes.
The intermediate piece was no longer in the spot it was placed after it pulled.
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healyje
Oct 15, 2007, 7:24 AM
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8flood8 wrote: CMon healyje, you are getting a bit excited and pulling that comment out of context. he can revel in the technical aspect of climbing for 20 years and still not know everything. Do YOU know EVERYTHING about climbing?
No, I'm not pulling it out of context in way at all. He claims to 'revel' in the technical side of climbing, asks a pointless question, and then bitches at the answers he gets. And yes, after thirty three years of climbing I do know everything I need to know about climbing - why, did someone change it recently?
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majid_sabet
Oct 15, 2007, 8:15 AM
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[URL=http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/9/10/15/f_leadingm_c7ce139.jpg&srv=img39]
[URL=http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/9/10/15/f_fallingm_1fc3de6.jpg&srv=img39]
[URL=http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/9/10/15/f_falling1m_2fcdc42.jpg&srv=img39]
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reg
Oct 15, 2007, 12:00 PM
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if the route were meandering or ah bit of traverseing, i believe the main problem of an intermediate piece pulling would be the sudden gain of rope lenght which in some circumstances could put you on the ground.
also the tone of your responce to coastal climber was ah bit - testy - bitchy - snotty - prissy. lighten up bro.
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j_ung
Oct 15, 2007, 12:08 PM
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Of what use is magically-appearing protection if it just fails when you fall on it?
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j_ung
Oct 15, 2007, 12:15 PM
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rockmaninoff wrote: scottb wrote: rockmaninoff wrote: has anybody witnessed an intermediate piece pulling during a fall? What were the consequences? Yes. Nothing. The piece that pulled was a shit nut that didn't have a long enough sling on an 'R' route. The route is straight up and down so the piece pulling had no effect on the path of the rope. Anyway, that probably didn't help you much, but that's what happened... That's exactly what I'm looking for.
But, don't think for a second that what happened in either case is acceptable. Rockmaninoff, your partner, especially, was one piece from disaster, as I'm sure you're aware. One millimeter off on the placement. One chunk of brittle rock. One frayed cable. One under-cammed cam. Blah, blah, blah... Point being: while everything turned out okay, it is NOT alright for ANY piece of your system to fail.
I'll echo stymingersfink. Try not to have only one piece between you and the ground.
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markc
Oct 15, 2007, 1:23 PM
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rockmaninoff wrote: That said, are there any other experienced trad climbers out there that have fallen, and had an intermediate (not the top) piece pull? Has that ever made a significant difference in the outcome of the fall?
I have had an intermediate piece pull as the result of a fall. It was a nut that I knew would not withstand an upward force. I placed it to protect a couple moves before a good rest and obviously better gear. (I also slung it shorter than normal, which I knew wouldn't help.) The piece did what I wanted it to do, and the piece I fell on was bomber. On top of that, the route was protected pretty well below me. I was climbing a fairly straight line, and that piece pulling didn't have any impact.
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medicus
Oct 15, 2007, 1:43 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: [URL=http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/9/10/15/f_leadingm_c7ce139.jpg&srv=img39][IMG]http://img39.picoodle.com/img/img39/9/10/15/f_leadingm_c7ce139.jpg[/IMG] [URL=http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/9/10/15/f_fallingm_1fc3de6.jpg&srv=img39][IMG]http://img39.picoodle.com/img/img39/9/10/15/f_fallingm_1fc3de6.jpg[/IMG] [URL=http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/9/10/15/f_falling1m_2fcdc42.jpg&srv=img39][IMG]http://img39.picoodle.com/img/img39/9/10/15/f_falling1m_2fcdc42.jpg[/IMG]
The question was about an intermediate pulling, and the top staying in. Your assessment of the situation in question is wrong.
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microbarn
Oct 15, 2007, 2:03 PM
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j_ung wrote: majid_sabet wrote: [IMG]http://img39.picoodle.com/img/img39/9/10/15/f_leadingm_c7ce139.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://img39.picoodle.com/img/img39/9/10/15/f_fallingm_1fc3de6.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://img39.picoodle.com/img/img39/9/10/15/f_falling1m_2fcdc42.jpg[/IMG] Of what use is magically-appearing protection if it just fails when you fall on it?
Majid is just illustrating again that he has no clue what zippering is.
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bennydh
Oct 15, 2007, 2:32 PM
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Hey healyje, I agree with you completely. For someone who supposedly has sooo much trad knowledge and experience this is a stupid question. For that amount of experience it should be a troll. Also, the response to some useful insight by the OP is stupid. Maybe the OP just wants to embellish and then revel in a story about a %&*$ UP that could have been much worse. Anyway, my point here is that Majid Sabet needs many many more arrows on those diagrams. As well as a scenic background, or a beer helmet.
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stymingersfink
Oct 15, 2007, 2:36 PM
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bennydh wrote: a scenic background, or a beer helmet.
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carabiner96
Oct 15, 2007, 2:37 PM
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stymingersfink wrote: bennydh wrote: a scenic background, or a beer helmet. 2nd on the beer helmet!
yeah, beer would have made the whole thing a lot more tolerable.
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el_layclimber
Oct 15, 2007, 2:40 PM
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carabiner96 wrote: stymingersfink wrote: bennydh wrote: a scenic background, or a beer helmet. 2nd on the beer helmet! yeah, beer would have made the whole thing a lot more tolerable.
The following takes place at 7:39 am
That is why I have made it my policy to only log in to RC.com and post when I am drunk.
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boadman
Oct 15, 2007, 7:21 PM
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Yes. I've had intermediate nuts that I didn't put long enough slings on, or were extremely marginal when I placed them pull. It's never happened on a route where I was meandering enough that the added slack from the intermediate piece failing would lengthen my fall significantly. I think that if that was a concern, it would be a good idea to use double ropes so that if the intermediate piece failed, there wouldn't be much additional slack.
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medicus
Oct 15, 2007, 7:24 PM
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microbarn wrote: j_ung wrote: majid_sabet wrote: [IMG]http://img39.picoodle.com/img/img39/9/10/15/f_leadingm_c7ce139.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://img39.picoodle.com/img/img39/9/10/15/f_fallingm_1fc3de6.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://img39.picoodle.com/img/img39/9/10/15/f_falling1m_2fcdc42.jpg[/IMG] Of what use is magically-appearing protection if it just fails when you fall on it? Majid is just illustrating again that he has no clue what zippering is.
Ohhh okay, that makes so much more sense now. 
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moose_droppings
Oct 15, 2007, 8:14 PM
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j_ung wrote: I'll echo stymingersfink. Try not to have only one piece between you and the ground.
I would take the definition of 'intermediate piece' to imply that there is more than one piece between you and the ground.
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majid_sabet
Oct 15, 2007, 8:17 PM
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"medicus[/quote wrote: The question was about an intermediate pulling, and the top staying in. Your assessment of the situation in question is wrong.
I was not even assessing anything other than adding some images .
That is all
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medicus
Oct 15, 2007, 8:29 PM
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Why?... if it doesn't even pertain to the topic, why do you post it on here?
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stymingersfink
Oct 15, 2007, 8:55 PM
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moose_droppings wrote: j_ung wrote: I'll echo stymingersfink. Try not to have only one piece between you and the ground. I would take the definition of 'intermediate piece' to imply that there is more than one piece between you and the ground. 
For instance:
I get to a stance below a crux and place a piece ("D"). There are three pieces below me ("A", "B", & "C" in ascending order from my belayer to me), and by my estimation the next gear placement will put me far enough above the "C" piece that should my "D" piece pull out I would certainly deck.
So, in effect, you would be pulling the crux to the next placement with only one piece between you and the ground.
It would be more prudent to place two pieces ("D" & "E") below the crux such that if the top one ("E") popped, the second ("D") would (hopefully) catch your fall with no significant increase in total fall distance (provided there are placements available).
This is part of the mental game of finding protection: an awareness of the consequences of a potentially rapidly deteriorating situation, and taking the necessary steps to mitigate those dangers before they present themselves.
To Wit: Never pull a sketchy crux without doubling up on gear if the failure of the top piece (prior to placing the "F" piece in the above scenario) would result in a groundfall.
Crystal?
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scottb
Oct 15, 2007, 8:56 PM
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j_ung wrote: rockmaninoff wrote: scottb wrote: rockmaninoff wrote: has anybody witnessed an intermediate piece pulling during a fall? What were the consequences? Yes. Nothing. The piece that pulled was a shit nut that didn't have a long enough sling on an 'R' route. The route is straight up and down so the piece pulling had no effect on the path of the rope. Anyway, that probably didn't help you much, but that's what happened... That's exactly what I'm looking for. But, don't think for a second that what happened in either case is acceptable. Rockmaninoff, your partner, especially, was one piece from disaster, as I'm sure you're aware. One millimeter off on the placement. One chunk of brittle rock. One frayed cable. One under-cammed cam. Blah, blah, blah... Point being: while everything turned out okay, it is NOT alright for ANY piece of your system to fail. I'll echo stymingersfink. Try not to have only one piece between you and the ground.
Oops, just realized how that reads. I didn't intend to imply that pieces of your system pulling out is, in any way, not a big deal. It actually freaked me out quite a bit when it happend even though it wasn't the next piece down from the one that caught me. Anyway, carry on...
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medicus
Oct 15, 2007, 9:04 PM
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well, majid replied to my post, but decided to delete it.
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moose_droppings
Oct 15, 2007, 9:46 PM
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stymingersfink wrote: moose_droppings wrote: j_ung wrote: I'll echo stymingersfink. Try not to have only one piece between you and the ground. I would take the definition of 'intermediate piece' to imply that there is more than one piece between you and the ground. Well, that's where what's said and what's heard can often be two different things. Try to refrain from implying improperly. For instance: I get to a stance below a crux and place a piece ("D"). There are three pieces below me ("A", "B", & "C" in ascending order from my belayer to me), and by my estimation the next gear placement will put me far enough above the "C" piece that should my "D" piece pull out I would certainly deck. So, in effect, you would be pulling the crux to the next placement with only one piece between you and the ground. It would be more prudent to place two pieces ("D" & "E") below the crux such that if the top one ("E") popped, the second ("D") would (hopefully) catch your fall with no significant increase in total fall distance (provided there are placements available). This is part of the mental game of finding protection: an awareness of the consequences of a potentially rapidly deteriorating situation, and taking the necessary steps to mitigate those dangers before they present themselves. To Wit: Never pull a sketchy crux without doubling up on gear if the failure of the top piece (prior to placing the "F" piece in the above scenario) would result in a groundfall. Crystal?
In your scenario, you've got no piece between you and the ground untill you get your 'd' piece in, negating the advice of an intermediate piece between you and the ground. And untill you get an 'e' piece in, you've still only got one inbetween you and the ground.
edited to add; sometimes thats all your given between 'c' and 'd'.
I agree on doubling up before a crux and after a run out.
(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Oct 15, 2007, 9:52 PM)
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stymingersfink
Oct 15, 2007, 10:07 PM
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moose_droppings wrote: stymingersfink wrote: moose_droppings wrote: j_ung wrote: I'll echo stymingersfink. Try not to have only one piece between you and the ground. I would take the definition of 'intermediate piece' to imply that there is more than one piece between you and the ground. Well, that's where what's said and what's heard can often be two different things. Try to refrain from implying improperly. For instance: I get to a stance below a crux and place a piece ("D"). There are three pieces below me ("A", "B", & "C" in ascending order from my belayer to me), and by my estimation the next gear placement will put me far enough above the "C" piece that should my "D" piece pull out I would certainly deck. So, in effect, you would be pulling the crux to the next placement with only one piece between you and the ground. It would be more prudent to place two pieces ("D" & "E") below the crux such that if the top one ("E") popped, the second ("D") would (hopefully) catch your fall with no significant increase in total fall distance (provided there are placements available). This is part of the mental game of finding protection: an awareness of the consequences of a potentially rapidly deteriorating situation, and taking the necessary steps to mitigate those dangers before they present themselves. To Wit: Never pull a sketchy crux without doubling up on gear if the failure of the top piece (prior to placing the "F" piece in the above scenario) would result in a groundfall. Crystal? In your scenario, you've got no piece between you and the ground untill you get your 'd' piece in, negating the advice of an intermediate piece between you and the ground. And untill you get an 'e' piece in, you've still only got one inbetween you and the ground. edited to add; sometimes thats all your given between 'c' and 'd'. I agree on doubling up before a crux and after a run out. 
The point was, when you arrive at a section which is clearly going to be taxing the leaders abilities, such that the real possibility of a fall exists, double 'em up before you get into the meat of the thing.
When we, as the one on the sharp end, cover ground we are confident in traveling over, we will often times place less gear than might appear prudent to a casual observer. The same leader on the same route but a different day, will place pro with a different strategy depending on how "on" they perceive their game to be that day.
It is always better for someone less sure of their system to place more gear. A team like the Hubers carried a very small rack for their speed ascent of The Nose. Clearly I would carry much more than they did.
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chr1s
Oct 15, 2007, 10:07 PM
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In reply to: I agree on doubling up before a crux and after a run out.
I hear you bro, but remember not to Z-clip them (easily done since they are so close together). Doesn't make the fall much longer but gives you wicked rope drag.
It wasn't until after I'd taken the 25ft whip and was slating my belayer for not feeding me enough slack through the crux that I saw what I had done. F-ing idiot. Took me 5 minutes with a rock and a nut tool to get that bad boy out.
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rockmaninoff
Oct 16, 2007, 12:31 AM
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I was hoping to spark a focused discussion and hear others' experiences on what could potentially be a fatal mistake/problem. I appreciate those who read what the post was about, and answered with their own experience.
I certainly don't need to defend my position that one should read a post before responding. It does no good to turn every discussion about trad climbing into a gear or accident analysis. (Was that diagram a joke, btw?) If I ask for people to share their experiences on the rock, even if it's just for the hell of it, and get a bunch of talk about how to place pro, then, yeah, you've got a reading comprehension problem.
If others' experiences have no relevance or interest to you, fine. Then this post was not for you. I am not too proud to admit that I don't know everything about climbing. I certainly don't have the experience that many of the RC.com users have, especially when it comes to falling on trad, but that's the way I climb.
I certainly don't derive comfort or a feeling of safety in hearing anecdotes about people falling, either safely or with consequences. But that doesn't mean I'm not interested. My call for experiences was not a cry for help on technique, and nothing written here would change the way I climb or place pro.
healy, you seem like a bigger anus than jt512 (and that's saying quite a lot). In your own words, you know everything about climbing that you need to; I suggest you leave the forums (especially posts like this) for those of us who want to know more than you, regardless of whether or not you deem it "relevant".
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rockmaninoff
Oct 16, 2007, 12:49 AM
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There's always one who has to cry "troll". microbrain, er, microbarn: Why is this a stupid question? Do you know the answer? It sounds like you don't even understand the question, let alone the "answer", whatever that would be.
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stymingersfink
Oct 16, 2007, 1:05 AM
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rockmaninoff wrote: I was hoping to spark a focused discussion and hear others' experiences on what could potentially be a fatal mistake/problem. I appreciate those who read what the post was about, and answered with their own experience.
rockmaninoff wrote: healy, <snip> I suggest you leave the forums (especially posts like this) for those of us who want to know more than you, regardless of whether or not you deem it "relevant".
Problem (for you) is, if you wanna know more than healyje, you've either gotta put in the time on the rock or ferret out the information from someone who already has (as he obviously has).
Doing your best to attempt to alienate those who hold the information you seek (weak sauce attempts though they may be), is no way to pry that knowledge loose.
What's the old adage about flies, honey and vinegar?
Yeah, that one.
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rockmaninoff
Oct 16, 2007, 1:17 AM
Post #45 of 51
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What are you babbling about?
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healyje
Oct 16, 2007, 1:28 AM
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rockmaninoff wrote: healy, you seem like a bigger anus than jt512 (and that's saying quite a lot). In your own words, you know everything about climbing that you need to; I suggest you leave the forums (especially posts like this) for those of us who want to know more than you, regardless of whether or not you deem it "relevant".
Well, I spent the weekend taking whippers on to a #3 Ballnut trying to turn a short roof high on p2 of a failed FA attempt. It's on a six pitch line that, base-to-top, steps out about 60' through a series of big unclimbed roofs, on a wall that hasn't been seen a go yet either. When I say I do know all I need to know about climbing at this point - for my purposes - I can back it up with both word and deed.
You either need to state you questions more carefully or be clearer in your intent. As it is, there are a lot of beginning and intermediate trad climbers around here and the line of reasoning in this thread could easily be [mis-]interpreted as it being ok to take a cavalier attitude towards poor placements (intermediate or otherwise) which is not the message I would want anyone to end up with.
My first post was designed not to 'analyze' but to be explicit in stating the importance of every piece in a well-built protection system. There are rare times when a piece in part of a placement might be deliberately 'sacrificial' relative to the loading of the whole, but that's a pretty advanced topic far out of most folks' experience.
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alexmac
Oct 16, 2007, 2:18 AM
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rockmaninoff wrote: Aha. First of all, I asked if anyone had personally witnessed a middle piece failing during a fall, not a gear analysis. Only my fellow man from UT, stymi, replied with a logical response.
Now that we have analysis out of the way, has anybody witnessed an intermediate piece pulling during a fall? What were the consequences?
Climbing three months and your giving people lip, nice... Lets ignore that this once all.
First step when climbing trad, place a mutlidirectional piece as your first piece.
Second when climbing try not to have a piece placed into a hole, crack, whatever that is not inline with the rest of the pieces (rope looks like <) extension with a long sling so the line of the rope looks like | .
if your line looks like | and your piece popped you placed it wrong. Shit happens.
(This post was edited by alexmac on Oct 16, 2007, 2:22 AM)
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rockmaninoff
Oct 16, 2007, 2:23 AM
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You and stymi don't need to establish your credentials in order to lend credence to what you say. I certainly don't have any feathers in my cap like that, nor do I aspire to obtain any.
This post was about hearing some anecdotes from trad climbers, plain and simple. If you wanted to chime in, great. If not, I simply asked that it not be turned into a thread about how to place gear.
I agree with what you have said about gear placement. However, not every post concerning traditional climbing needs a disclaimer to burgeoning traddies, or an elementary review of gear placement for their benefit.
If anything, this thread might make these beginners you speak of aware that a middle piece failure could put enough slack in the system to cause a problem. My own feeling is that if they didn't know that already, or might adopt a "cavalier" attitude about protecting their life because of some story they read on the site, they shouldn't climb trad.
Of the forty some-odd posts in the thread, a few have been what I was interested in hearing about; thanks. The rest (including this one) are absolute drivel.
Thanks for the stories; thanks for the (unwanted and unnecessary) gear advice; thanks for the flames. I'm signing out of this one, let's put this thread to rest.
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buddysnack
Oct 16, 2007, 2:40 AM
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Do all of you speak to each other this way at the cliff? I am almost embarassed to be a climber.
I once heard Kitty Calhoun say to a bitching climber "if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything." Isn't there enough negativity in this world already?
I enjoy good conversation and debate. Let's keep it to that.
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climbingaggie03
Oct 29, 2007, 5:04 AM
Post #51 of 51
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So I wasn't that interested in this thread, but I had an applicable experience a couple of days ago (I think)
I was climbing snake dike, On the first pitch I placed my first piece which was really good, slung it with a double length runner and then started the traverse, when I was almost through with the traverse, I placed another piece that I thought was in marginal rock, but would probably hold, slung it with a single length runner and kept climbing, near the end of the pitch rope drag was killing me and I was running out of rope when my second piece popped. I don't know if the piece walked or what, but if I had fallen and it popped it probably would have added 5 feet to a fall.
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