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bennydh
Oct 15, 2007, 2:32 PM
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Hey healyje, I agree with you completely. For someone who supposedly has sooo much trad knowledge and experience this is a stupid question. For that amount of experience it should be a troll. Also, the response to some useful insight by the OP is stupid. Maybe the OP just wants to embellish and then revel in a story about a %&*$ UP that could have been much worse. Anyway, my point here is that Majid Sabet needs many many more arrows on those diagrams. As well as a scenic background, or a beer helmet.
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stymingersfink
Oct 15, 2007, 2:36 PM
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bennydh wrote: a scenic background, or a beer helmet.
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carabiner96
Oct 15, 2007, 2:37 PM
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stymingersfink wrote: bennydh wrote: a scenic background, or a beer helmet. 2nd on the beer helmet!
yeah, beer would have made the whole thing a lot more tolerable.
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el_layclimber
Oct 15, 2007, 2:40 PM
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carabiner96 wrote: stymingersfink wrote: bennydh wrote: a scenic background, or a beer helmet. 2nd on the beer helmet! yeah, beer would have made the whole thing a lot more tolerable.
The following takes place at 7:39 am
That is why I have made it my policy to only log in to RC.com and post when I am drunk.
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boadman
Oct 15, 2007, 7:21 PM
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Yes. I've had intermediate nuts that I didn't put long enough slings on, or were extremely marginal when I placed them pull. It's never happened on a route where I was meandering enough that the added slack from the intermediate piece failing would lengthen my fall significantly. I think that if that was a concern, it would be a good idea to use double ropes so that if the intermediate piece failed, there wouldn't be much additional slack.
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medicus
Oct 15, 2007, 7:24 PM
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microbarn wrote: j_ung wrote: majid_sabet wrote: [IMG]http://img39.picoodle.com/img/img39/9/10/15/f_leadingm_c7ce139.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://img39.picoodle.com/img/img39/9/10/15/f_fallingm_1fc3de6.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://img39.picoodle.com/img/img39/9/10/15/f_falling1m_2fcdc42.jpg[/IMG] Of what use is magically-appearing protection if it just fails when you fall on it? Majid is just illustrating again that he has no clue what zippering is.
Ohhh okay, that makes so much more sense now. 
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moose_droppings
Oct 15, 2007, 8:14 PM
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j_ung wrote: I'll echo stymingersfink. Try not to have only one piece between you and the ground.
I would take the definition of 'intermediate piece' to imply that there is more than one piece between you and the ground.
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majid_sabet
Oct 15, 2007, 8:17 PM
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"medicus[/quote wrote: The question was about an intermediate pulling, and the top staying in. Your assessment of the situation in question is wrong.
I was not even assessing anything other than adding some images .
That is all
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medicus
Oct 15, 2007, 8:29 PM
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Why?... if it doesn't even pertain to the topic, why do you post it on here?
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stymingersfink
Oct 15, 2007, 8:55 PM
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moose_droppings wrote: j_ung wrote: I'll echo stymingersfink. Try not to have only one piece between you and the ground. I would take the definition of 'intermediate piece' to imply that there is more than one piece between you and the ground. 
For instance:
I get to a stance below a crux and place a piece ("D"). There are three pieces below me ("A", "B", & "C" in ascending order from my belayer to me), and by my estimation the next gear placement will put me far enough above the "C" piece that should my "D" piece pull out I would certainly deck.
So, in effect, you would be pulling the crux to the next placement with only one piece between you and the ground.
It would be more prudent to place two pieces ("D" & "E") below the crux such that if the top one ("E") popped, the second ("D") would (hopefully) catch your fall with no significant increase in total fall distance (provided there are placements available).
This is part of the mental game of finding protection: an awareness of the consequences of a potentially rapidly deteriorating situation, and taking the necessary steps to mitigate those dangers before they present themselves.
To Wit: Never pull a sketchy crux without doubling up on gear if the failure of the top piece (prior to placing the "F" piece in the above scenario) would result in a groundfall.
Crystal?
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scottb
Oct 15, 2007, 8:56 PM
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j_ung wrote: rockmaninoff wrote: scottb wrote: rockmaninoff wrote: has anybody witnessed an intermediate piece pulling during a fall? What were the consequences? Yes. Nothing. The piece that pulled was a shit nut that didn't have a long enough sling on an 'R' route. The route is straight up and down so the piece pulling had no effect on the path of the rope. Anyway, that probably didn't help you much, but that's what happened... That's exactly what I'm looking for. But, don't think for a second that what happened in either case is acceptable. Rockmaninoff, your partner, especially, was one piece from disaster, as I'm sure you're aware. One millimeter off on the placement. One chunk of brittle rock. One frayed cable. One under-cammed cam. Blah, blah, blah... Point being: while everything turned out okay, it is NOT alright for ANY piece of your system to fail. I'll echo stymingersfink. Try not to have only one piece between you and the ground.
Oops, just realized how that reads. I didn't intend to imply that pieces of your system pulling out is, in any way, not a big deal. It actually freaked me out quite a bit when it happend even though it wasn't the next piece down from the one that caught me. Anyway, carry on...
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medicus
Oct 15, 2007, 9:04 PM
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well, majid replied to my post, but decided to delete it.
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moose_droppings
Oct 15, 2007, 9:46 PM
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stymingersfink wrote: moose_droppings wrote: j_ung wrote: I'll echo stymingersfink. Try not to have only one piece between you and the ground. I would take the definition of 'intermediate piece' to imply that there is more than one piece between you and the ground. Well, that's where what's said and what's heard can often be two different things. Try to refrain from implying improperly. For instance: I get to a stance below a crux and place a piece ("D"). There are three pieces below me ("A", "B", & "C" in ascending order from my belayer to me), and by my estimation the next gear placement will put me far enough above the "C" piece that should my "D" piece pull out I would certainly deck. So, in effect, you would be pulling the crux to the next placement with only one piece between you and the ground. It would be more prudent to place two pieces ("D" & "E") below the crux such that if the top one ("E") popped, the second ("D") would (hopefully) catch your fall with no significant increase in total fall distance (provided there are placements available). This is part of the mental game of finding protection: an awareness of the consequences of a potentially rapidly deteriorating situation, and taking the necessary steps to mitigate those dangers before they present themselves. To Wit: Never pull a sketchy crux without doubling up on gear if the failure of the top piece (prior to placing the "F" piece in the above scenario) would result in a groundfall. Crystal?
In your scenario, you've got no piece between you and the ground untill you get your 'd' piece in, negating the advice of an intermediate piece between you and the ground. And untill you get an 'e' piece in, you've still only got one inbetween you and the ground.
edited to add; sometimes thats all your given between 'c' and 'd'.
I agree on doubling up before a crux and after a run out.
(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Oct 15, 2007, 9:52 PM)
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stymingersfink
Oct 15, 2007, 10:07 PM
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moose_droppings wrote: stymingersfink wrote: moose_droppings wrote: j_ung wrote: I'll echo stymingersfink. Try not to have only one piece between you and the ground. I would take the definition of 'intermediate piece' to imply that there is more than one piece between you and the ground. Well, that's where what's said and what's heard can often be two different things. Try to refrain from implying improperly. For instance: I get to a stance below a crux and place a piece ("D"). There are three pieces below me ("A", "B", & "C" in ascending order from my belayer to me), and by my estimation the next gear placement will put me far enough above the "C" piece that should my "D" piece pull out I would certainly deck. So, in effect, you would be pulling the crux to the next placement with only one piece between you and the ground. It would be more prudent to place two pieces ("D" & "E") below the crux such that if the top one ("E") popped, the second ("D") would (hopefully) catch your fall with no significant increase in total fall distance (provided there are placements available). This is part of the mental game of finding protection: an awareness of the consequences of a potentially rapidly deteriorating situation, and taking the necessary steps to mitigate those dangers before they present themselves. To Wit: Never pull a sketchy crux without doubling up on gear if the failure of the top piece (prior to placing the "F" piece in the above scenario) would result in a groundfall. Crystal? In your scenario, you've got no piece between you and the ground untill you get your 'd' piece in, negating the advice of an intermediate piece between you and the ground. And untill you get an 'e' piece in, you've still only got one inbetween you and the ground. edited to add; sometimes thats all your given between 'c' and 'd'. I agree on doubling up before a crux and after a run out. 
The point was, when you arrive at a section which is clearly going to be taxing the leaders abilities, such that the real possibility of a fall exists, double 'em up before you get into the meat of the thing.
When we, as the one on the sharp end, cover ground we are confident in traveling over, we will often times place less gear than might appear prudent to a casual observer. The same leader on the same route but a different day, will place pro with a different strategy depending on how "on" they perceive their game to be that day.
It is always better for someone less sure of their system to place more gear. A team like the Hubers carried a very small rack for their speed ascent of The Nose. Clearly I would carry much more than they did.
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chr1s
Oct 15, 2007, 10:07 PM
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In reply to: I agree on doubling up before a crux and after a run out.
I hear you bro, but remember not to Z-clip them (easily done since they are so close together). Doesn't make the fall much longer but gives you wicked rope drag.
It wasn't until after I'd taken the 25ft whip and was slating my belayer for not feeding me enough slack through the crux that I saw what I had done. F-ing idiot. Took me 5 minutes with a rock and a nut tool to get that bad boy out.
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rockmaninoff
Oct 16, 2007, 12:31 AM
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I was hoping to spark a focused discussion and hear others' experiences on what could potentially be a fatal mistake/problem. I appreciate those who read what the post was about, and answered with their own experience.
I certainly don't need to defend my position that one should read a post before responding. It does no good to turn every discussion about trad climbing into a gear or accident analysis. (Was that diagram a joke, btw?) If I ask for people to share their experiences on the rock, even if it's just for the hell of it, and get a bunch of talk about how to place pro, then, yeah, you've got a reading comprehension problem.
If others' experiences have no relevance or interest to you, fine. Then this post was not for you. I am not too proud to admit that I don't know everything about climbing. I certainly don't have the experience that many of the RC.com users have, especially when it comes to falling on trad, but that's the way I climb.
I certainly don't derive comfort or a feeling of safety in hearing anecdotes about people falling, either safely or with consequences. But that doesn't mean I'm not interested. My call for experiences was not a cry for help on technique, and nothing written here would change the way I climb or place pro.
healy, you seem like a bigger anus than jt512 (and that's saying quite a lot). In your own words, you know everything about climbing that you need to; I suggest you leave the forums (especially posts like this) for those of us who want to know more than you, regardless of whether or not you deem it "relevant".
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rockmaninoff
Oct 16, 2007, 12:49 AM
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There's always one who has to cry "troll". microbrain, er, microbarn: Why is this a stupid question? Do you know the answer? It sounds like you don't even understand the question, let alone the "answer", whatever that would be.
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stymingersfink
Oct 16, 2007, 1:05 AM
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rockmaninoff wrote: I was hoping to spark a focused discussion and hear others' experiences on what could potentially be a fatal mistake/problem. I appreciate those who read what the post was about, and answered with their own experience.
rockmaninoff wrote: healy, <snip> I suggest you leave the forums (especially posts like this) for those of us who want to know more than you, regardless of whether or not you deem it "relevant".
Problem (for you) is, if you wanna know more than healyje, you've either gotta put in the time on the rock or ferret out the information from someone who already has (as he obviously has).
Doing your best to attempt to alienate those who hold the information you seek (weak sauce attempts though they may be), is no way to pry that knowledge loose.
What's the old adage about flies, honey and vinegar?
Yeah, that one.
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rockmaninoff
Oct 16, 2007, 1:17 AM
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What are you babbling about?
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healyje
Oct 16, 2007, 1:28 AM
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rockmaninoff wrote: healy, you seem like a bigger anus than jt512 (and that's saying quite a lot). In your own words, you know everything about climbing that you need to; I suggest you leave the forums (especially posts like this) for those of us who want to know more than you, regardless of whether or not you deem it "relevant".
Well, I spent the weekend taking whippers on to a #3 Ballnut trying to turn a short roof high on p2 of a failed FA attempt. It's on a six pitch line that, base-to-top, steps out about 60' through a series of big unclimbed roofs, on a wall that hasn't been seen a go yet either. When I say I do know all I need to know about climbing at this point - for my purposes - I can back it up with both word and deed.
You either need to state you questions more carefully or be clearer in your intent. As it is, there are a lot of beginning and intermediate trad climbers around here and the line of reasoning in this thread could easily be [mis-]interpreted as it being ok to take a cavalier attitude towards poor placements (intermediate or otherwise) which is not the message I would want anyone to end up with.
My first post was designed not to 'analyze' but to be explicit in stating the importance of every piece in a well-built protection system. There are rare times when a piece in part of a placement might be deliberately 'sacrificial' relative to the loading of the whole, but that's a pretty advanced topic far out of most folks' experience.
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alexmac
Oct 16, 2007, 2:18 AM
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rockmaninoff wrote: Aha. First of all, I asked if anyone had personally witnessed a middle piece failing during a fall, not a gear analysis. Only my fellow man from UT, stymi, replied with a logical response.
Now that we have analysis out of the way, has anybody witnessed an intermediate piece pulling during a fall? What were the consequences?
Climbing three months and your giving people lip, nice... Lets ignore that this once all.
First step when climbing trad, place a mutlidirectional piece as your first piece.
Second when climbing try not to have a piece placed into a hole, crack, whatever that is not inline with the rest of the pieces (rope looks like <) extension with a long sling so the line of the rope looks like | .
if your line looks like | and your piece popped you placed it wrong. Shit happens.
(This post was edited by alexmac on Oct 16, 2007, 2:22 AM)
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rockmaninoff
Oct 16, 2007, 2:23 AM
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You and stymi don't need to establish your credentials in order to lend credence to what you say. I certainly don't have any feathers in my cap like that, nor do I aspire to obtain any.
This post was about hearing some anecdotes from trad climbers, plain and simple. If you wanted to chime in, great. If not, I simply asked that it not be turned into a thread about how to place gear.
I agree with what you have said about gear placement. However, not every post concerning traditional climbing needs a disclaimer to burgeoning traddies, or an elementary review of gear placement for their benefit.
If anything, this thread might make these beginners you speak of aware that a middle piece failure could put enough slack in the system to cause a problem. My own feeling is that if they didn't know that already, or might adopt a "cavalier" attitude about protecting their life because of some story they read on the site, they shouldn't climb trad.
Of the forty some-odd posts in the thread, a few have been what I was interested in hearing about; thanks. The rest (including this one) are absolute drivel.
Thanks for the stories; thanks for the (unwanted and unnecessary) gear advice; thanks for the flames. I'm signing out of this one, let's put this thread to rest.
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buddysnack
Oct 16, 2007, 2:40 AM
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Do all of you speak to each other this way at the cliff? I am almost embarassed to be a climber.
I once heard Kitty Calhoun say to a bitching climber "if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything." Isn't there enough negativity in this world already?
I enjoy good conversation and debate. Let's keep it to that.
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