First thought was to argue the numbers since I think they support that the basic belay was as good as it could be - except for maybe pre-tensioning with full body weight or setting an intermediate belay.

Second thought was that, yeah, a leader has responsibility for setting up the situation regardless of whether or not the stretch-numbers would stack up on the belayers side in the end.

Bill L

The first 20 or so feet of many routes can be a lot more dangerous than any bouldering high ball. I'm always amused to see folks who refuse to do highballs routinely tie into a rope and then solo up over the talus sharks to clip the first bolt or place the first cam..

I understand your point but consider... bouldering often doesn't merely hold the threat of falling, but the expectation.

In my case I have broken both ankles and the last break didn't heal all that well. A high ball bouldering fall is simply not in the program.

Its different, s'all.

Cheers bro
DMT

Bullshit. Although not always possible or desirable, in most cases the leader should simply put the second on sufficient tension at the beginning of the pitch so that if he falls he won't get hurt. I'm amazed by how many belayers I find who have never even considered this.

Jay

Bullshit. Although not always possible or desirable, in most cases the leader should simply put the second on sufficient tension at the beginning of the pitch so that if he falls he won't get hurt. I'm amazed by how many belayers I find who have never even considered this.

That is why I call the first 15 feet of any trad climbing as the "trad death zone"

Perhaps I was unclear. I was referring to the specialized case where pulling sufficient tension on the line was not possible (short of a haul system or something like that). I believe that was the original scenario (the leader had tensioned the line?).

I kind of take it as a given that the belayer above is going to try to take as much slack as possible if there's a difficult/risky start. Perhaps I assume too much.

The important thing for people to take away from this is that tension on the belayer's end does not always equal a short fall on the follower's end of things -- particularly with great lengths of rope and rope drag in play. Most of the time this is not a big deal: either the follower is on easy ground, or the fall is clean. Regardless, the team needs to be able to recognize the risk and deal with it as they see fit.

Please note that the opinions expressed by Majid_sabet are not necessarily those of jt512. Any resemblance is purely coincidental.

Jay

if the leader would have had the foresight to know that a low crux + stretcy rope were going to cause a problem, one solution would have been to plan on bringing up both seconds independently. Doing so would have allowed a re-direct from a high-point anchor with a direct belay from the harness. This would also have allowed the top belayer to add his/her body-weight to the tension equation, simply by jumping up and removing slack from the system, using their own body-weight to pull stretch from the rope.


In this particular case, with the stretchy half-ropes, I doubt that even this technique would have been sufficient to prevent a decking.

Which leaves two reasonable options from where I'm sitting.

1: split the pitch up. it sounds like there was a good ledge less than half-way up the pitch.

2: use single-rated ropes and tension the seconds aggressively while they are near potential obstructions on the route.


Perhaps a less reasonable option would be to stay in the gym, don't climb outside where unforeseen dangers might exist. Even though, it is the option many would rather be exercised.

Perhaps I was unclear. I was referring to the specialized case [emphasis mine] where pulling sufficient tension on the line was not possible (short of a haul system or something like that). I believe that was the original scenario (the leader had tensioned the line?).

...in most cases the follower just needs to suck it up and deal with it....[emphasis mine]

No, actually, you were perfectly clear. You wrote:

"In most cases" does not mean "the specialized case." In fact, it means the opposite.

...I think the real problem is not the people taking that risk, but those who fail to realize they are taking that risk...

All else aside, I think you are spot-on in that observation.

Curt

it would have helped if he had extended the anchor to the edge, rather than ten feet away from where he was. Izmuch easier to pre-tension skinny ropes auto-blocked with an ATC-Guide when it's sitting right there in front of you, but nearly impossible when it's not.

The belayer's lengthy one-paragraph explanation indicated that the anchor was extended to the edge. I wouldn't have read it either if I were sailing down I15.

I understand your point but consider... bouldering often doesn't merely hold the threat of falling, but the expectation.

I guess I'm showing my age. Repeated downclimbing used to be the norm on highballs, and it still is for me. Since I rarely climb in the gym, I easily forget that the bouldering cave is always filled with the steady WHOMP! of gromms jumping from 20 foot up.

We could make the point another way-- the first section of any lead, and often the first section of any second, is frequently a free solo.

"...my indoor climbing reflex kicked in and I sat back to study the problem-

Your idea about belaying off the harness and redirecting through the anchor was something I had not considered. Still, at most, that would take out just a couple fee of slack which, on the next attempted stroke, could just get sucked back out.

[Y]ou can take out a lot more stretch than a couple of feet. . . . As Sty said, you rig the anchor high, belay off your harness, and redirect the belay through the anchor. You have now essentially mimicked a sling-shot toprope setup. Put as much tension in the rope as you can by using brute force. Then, with your brake hand locking the rope off, grab the rope as high as you can with your guide hand. Then, do the following three things simultaneously: (1) pull down with your guide hand, (2) jump, (3) pull slack out of the rope by pulling up with your brake and quickly returning it to the braking position. You can perform this maneuver repeatedly to increase the tension in the rope, up until you can no longer stand firmly on the ground. Still not enough tension? Have the second climb a few feet up, and repeat the maneuver a couple more times.

With 150 feet of rope out, you can pull out a lot more than a couple of feet of slack like this. By pulling down continuously with your guide hand, friction through the anchor prevents the rope from sliding back on each jump, the anchor essentially acting as a ratchet.

Given the audience for this site, we should probably add the caveats: This works best for climbs with ultra-bomber anchors, that are mostly vertical or slabby, and mostly straight up-and-down. If the climb starts with a traverse or a steep overhang, the tension is going to work like a slingshot with potentially interesting results.

yes, though in some situations I will remove my tether to the anchor and can counter-weight my seconding climber as much as necessary.

There are times when I will actually lower myself down my side of the rope such that I can see my seconding climber. In such situations I must be able to get my weight on the rock to utilize the technique outlined before in order to re-ascend my side of the rope when it is no longer necessary for me to be within visual range.

^^this is usually done on easier climbs, when I've got a rank beginner with me, or perhaps a situation arises that I need to see to be able to come up with a solution, as none seems to be forthcoming from below.. certainly ain't gonna happen on some overhanging dog-fest.Smile

as I was telling bill in a followup PM;