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mhagny
Oct 14, 2008, 7:06 PM
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Attention all trad climbers:
On two different Black Diamond C3 units, I have had a spring pop loose -- the spring that tensions one of the outer cam lobes. In neither case did the cam absorb a fall. I really don't know how either case occurred because both were reported to me by my second who had retrieved the piece and noticed it (in one case it may have been part of the anchor and held body weight, but I don't exactly recall). I'm fairly certain that they weren't that way when I placed them, as I am quite attentive to degree of camming of individual lobes, etc., particularly on any of the smaller cam sizes. Therefore, the springs had to have popped loose simply from rope 'lash'/tensioning or from holding body weight (perhaps with the C3 stem across an edge?). Either way, this could be a serious hazard, since the loss of a spring causes that lobe to be dead, so you only have 2 functional lobes -- a highly unstable situation.
The first time it happened, I contacted Black Diamond, who said it had only happened once previously (this was early August 08) that they were aware. I didn't put major thought into it, figuring it was a minor weakness in the design and a freak occurrence for it to actually pop off. BD graciously replaced the unit. Now I've got a completely different unit with a popped spring, and I've studied it extensively. I see no defect in the materials or workmanship; it's just that the spring makes a semi-open loop that snaps into a groove in a plastic ring on the cable. Apparently the loop can stretch a bit and pop off in just the right circumstances.
I've notified BD about this second failed C3 unit also, suggesting that they do a recall on C3s. So far, they insist that nothing is wrong and there is no reason for a recall. But I do know for certain that I am done using them.
I am attempting to attach photos.
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smeinhold
Oct 14, 2008, 7:16 PM
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what sizes did you break?
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mhagny
Oct 14, 2008, 7:21 PM
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Yellow and Red.
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CMTomasetti
Oct 14, 2008, 7:27 PM
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The same thing happened to one of my cams and its not the spring that is an issue its the trigger wire that is getting messed up. Black Diamond is correct in stateing that there is no need for a recall. Its a simple user issue.....
Heres what happened to mine and my guess is both of yours...
The cam was placed, in a non-ideal placement, probably slightly over cammed. What happens is that the lobes can not be retracted any more in thier normal range of motion so the user pulls on the trigger as hard as they can. this forces the trigger past its normal stopping point and stretchs the trigger wire out. it then slips off the plastic ring that is holding the tension against the spring.
This whole thing is simply due to the user pulling on the trigger to hard to try and force the lobes to retract futher then they should.
The fix is simple... use a pair of needle nose pliers and bend the trigger wire back in place. I fixed mine it works good as new.
If you're still not going to use these, i'll gladly take them off your hands 
Peace
CMT
(This post was edited by CMTomasetti on Oct 14, 2008, 7:34 PM)
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epoch
Moderator
Oct 14, 2008, 7:29 PM
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Question #1:
Have you contacted Black Diamond about this?
Question #2:
Does this post precede or follow said contact?
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AlexCV
Oct 14, 2008, 7:42 PM
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mhagny wrote: [image] These go w/ my preceding post.
Those are some really shitty early 90s vintage quality photos.
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mhagny
Oct 14, 2008, 7:45 PM
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Interesting theory. However, in looking at the unit, I don't see how it could happen -- the plastic trigger piece cradles the loop ends of the springs when you pull on the trigger, which should make the loops less likely to pop off (although the loop could perhaps stretch a bit and successfully escape later). Maybe if you pulled on only one side of the trigger, but that would be unusual.
Also, I took my remaining intact C3 units and did quite a bit of strenuous trigger pulling, and added some twisting of the stem, and nothing happens. However, it does appear that not all of the spring loops are equally clamped over the plastic.
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mhagny
Oct 14, 2008, 7:47 PM
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it won't let me upload anything over 150 kb. Maybe there's a better way to resize photos than what I'm doing -- I'm no photo-editor whiz.
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Gmburns2000
Oct 14, 2008, 7:51 PM
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CMTomasetti wrote: The same thing happened to one of my cams and its not the spring that is an issue its the trigger wire that is getting messed up. Black Diamond is correct in stateing that there is no need for a recall. Its a simple user issue..... Heres what happened to mine and my guess is both of yours... The cam was placed, in a non-ideal placement, probably slightly over cammed. What happens is that the lobes can not be retracted any more in thier normal range of motion so the user pulls on the trigger as hard as they can. this forces the trigger past its normal stopping point and stretchs the trigger wire out. it then slips off the plastic ring that is holding the tension against the spring. This whole thing is simply due to the user pulling on the trigger to hard to try and force the lobes to retract futher then they should. The fix is simple... use a pair of needle nose pliers and bend the trigger wire back in place. I fixed mine it works good as new. If you're still not going to use these, i'll gladly take them off your hands Peace CMT
Two questions:
1) - When the trigger wire is yanked out, does this compromise the cam's holding ability?
2) - Has anyone had an issue like this on any other cam? Just wondering if this is normal. Sure, maybe it is user-error, but that doesn't seem acceptable to me. While I certainly do my best to avoid this, I do sometimes over-cam my placements. This isn't due to inexperience per se, but often due to having only one piece of gear that could possibly work in that particular scenario. So while it certainly isn't preferred, I doubt it is completely uncommon, and I would think that a manufacturer would build the cam to avoid this "mistake."
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scottb
Oct 14, 2008, 7:52 PM
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CMTomasetti wrote: Heres what happened to mine and my guess is both of yours... The cam was placed, in a non-ideal placement, probably slightly over cammed. What happens is that the lobes can not be retracted any more in thier normal range of motion so the user pulls on the trigger as hard as they can. this forces the trigger past its normal stopping point and stretchs the trigger wire out. it then slips off the plastic ring that is holding the tension against the spring. This whole thing is simply due to the user pulling on the trigger to hard to try and force the lobes to retract futher then they should. The fix is simple... use a pair of needle nose pliers and bend the trigger wire back in place. I fixed mine it works good as new. If you're still not going to use these, i'll gladly take them off your hands Peace CMT
You beat me to it...
That's what I was thinking.
I agree that this doesn't necessitate a recall and either way it looks like it'd be easy to fix at home (though it's hard to tell without fondling them myself).
And for the record: I luvz my C3s. Luvz 'em.
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carabiner96
Oct 14, 2008, 8:03 PM
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A friend of mine had his red C3 do the same thing.
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hafilax
Oct 14, 2008, 8:04 PM
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Where's the CCH sized outrage?!
C3=alienzz=deathfromabove!!!
Seriously this is a little unnerving and it would be nice to hear a concrete explanation. Telling a climber to not pull too hard on the trigger seems like telling a bull not to run at the red cape.
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Gmburns2000
Oct 14, 2008, 8:12 PM
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hafilax wrote: Seriously this is a little unnerving and it would be nice to hear a concrete explanation. Telling a climber to not pull too hard on the trigger seems like telling a bull not to run at the red cape.
Exactly.
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patmay81
Oct 14, 2008, 8:31 PM
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there is an easy solution to this problem, buy metolius. they are way more burly units (no plastic) and they are WAY cheaper.
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alexmac
Oct 14, 2008, 8:39 PM
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I had the same issue over a year ago.
Reported it, sent cams in, I don't use C3's going forward ever even for body weight aid placements. (then again when was the last time I did aid, 2007)
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Gmburns2000
Oct 14, 2008, 8:46 PM
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patmay81 wrote: there is an easy solution to this problem, buy metolius. they are way more burly units (no plastic) and they are WAY cheaper.
Can't stand the double stem. Very difficult with my fingers. I don't have thick fingers, but I lose a lot of feeling on cool days and my fingertips are kind of sensitive anyway. Though I can say that I got to play with my first Link Cam this weekend and WOWIEEEEE!!!!
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hafilax
Oct 14, 2008, 8:57 PM
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What is a comparison of cams with nothing in common? Alex
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michael_c
Oct 15, 2008, 2:27 AM
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Perhaps a small amount of glue to hold the wire into the plastic a little better might be a bit of a fix.
I haven't had this happen to my C3's. Although I see how it could happen. I'll keep an eye on them.
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jh_angel
Oct 15, 2008, 2:56 AM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: patmay81 wrote: there is an easy solution to this problem, buy metolius. they are way more burly units (no plastic) and they are WAY cheaper. Can't stand the double stem. Very difficult with my fingers. I don't have thick fingers, but I lose a lot of feeling on cool days and my fingertips are kind of sensitive anyway. Though I can say that I got to play with my first Link Cam this weekend and WOWIEEEEE!!!!
I think he was referring to these http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/master_cam.htm.
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mheyman
Oct 15, 2008, 3:11 AM
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Doesn’t make me particularly happy as I am a C3 user, but if the information presented here is correct, and I understand it the there isn't much of a safety issue. If you make a good placement that placement will not fail because of this. The cam doesn’t break till try to you pull it out.
There is likely some risk of breaking a cam and then placing it without realizing it is broken though. Good to know to watch out for this, thanks.
(This post was edited by mheyman on Oct 15, 2008, 12:15 PM)
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alexmac
Oct 15, 2008, 3:18 AM
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Had the cam break on a body weight placement, heads deformed etc
I don't use C3's anymore. Halifax the subject is the C3, I am talking about C3, less time with those from Cape Breton and you may be sober to see I Am talking the same thing.
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mhagny
Oct 15, 2008, 11:51 AM
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alexmac wrote: Had the cam break on a body weight placement, heads deformed etc I don't use C3's anymore. quote] Can you elaborate on the "heads deformed" statement? As for the original question/warning posed in this thread, the hazard (as I see it) is if: A) the spring pops off after placing the C3, due to the rope's light tensioning due to rope drag, or B) during the course of loading while catching a fall, a scenario that causes all sorts of crazy things to happen with the rope/gear/rock interactions. As mentioned, if a spring pops, the unit is highly likely to fail because only 2 lobes are functional at that point. I think what is happening is the partial loop formed by the end of the spring varies a bit in the amount of crimp (tightness of the loop) from one spring to the next, and a small percentage of them eventually manage to pop loose. I think the C3 is a very good design, except for the failure to adequately secure the end of these springs. I have been using one of the Metolius Master Cams lately, and I like it a lot. I like it better than the Wild Country Zeros that I have used for a couple years. The Zeros are decent units, but the springs seem quite soft compared to the C3s, and the wires have a tendency to drag on the lobes after a certain amount of use. But at least they stay together.
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CMTomasetti
Oct 15, 2008, 12:12 PM
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So, "over-camming" might be exact description I should use but this is a hard thing to explain. I'll see if I can't get out and get some pictures and or video of why this happened to my cam...
As for is the holding power compromised the answer is yes. The way the c3 work is that the springs are at the bottom of the cam and push up on the trigger creating the tension between the rock and the cam head. once the trigger is dislodged the spring is no longer pushing on the cam head and it becomes limp. Other cams don't do this because the springs are connected directly to the cam head.
The reason the unique spring position of the C3's is advantageous is that it allows the cam heads to be closer together, which is why the C3 have such a narrow head profile.....
So, again I'm gonna try and get pictures and/or video of exactly what i think is happening..stay tuned
CMT
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