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mhagny
Oct 14, 2008, 7:06 PM
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Attention all trad climbers:
On two different Black Diamond C3 units, I have had a spring pop loose -- the spring that tensions one of the outer cam lobes. In neither case did the cam absorb a fall. I really don't know how either case occurred because both were reported to me by my second who had retrieved the piece and noticed it (in one case it may have been part of the anchor and held body weight, but I don't exactly recall). I'm fairly certain that they weren't that way when I placed them, as I am quite attentive to degree of camming of individual lobes, etc., particularly on any of the smaller cam sizes. Therefore, the springs had to have popped loose simply from rope 'lash'/tensioning or from holding body weight (perhaps with the C3 stem across an edge?). Either way, this could be a serious hazard, since the loss of a spring causes that lobe to be dead, so you only have 2 functional lobes -- a highly unstable situation.
The first time it happened, I contacted Black Diamond, who said it had only happened once previously (this was early August 08) that they were aware. I didn't put major thought into it, figuring it was a minor weakness in the design and a freak occurrence for it to actually pop off. BD graciously replaced the unit. Now I've got a completely different unit with a popped spring, and I've studied it extensively. I see no defect in the materials or workmanship; it's just that the spring makes a semi-open loop that snaps into a groove in a plastic ring on the cable. Apparently the loop can stretch a bit and pop off in just the right circumstances.
I've notified BD about this second failed C3 unit also, suggesting that they do a recall on C3s. So far, they insist that nothing is wrong and there is no reason for a recall. But I do know for certain that I am done using them.
I am attempting to attach photos.
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smeinhold
Oct 14, 2008, 7:16 PM
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what sizes did you break?
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mhagny
Oct 14, 2008, 7:21 PM
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Yellow and Red.
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CMTomasetti
Oct 14, 2008, 7:27 PM
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The same thing happened to one of my cams and its not the spring that is an issue its the trigger wire that is getting messed up. Black Diamond is correct in stateing that there is no need for a recall. Its a simple user issue.....
Heres what happened to mine and my guess is both of yours...
The cam was placed, in a non-ideal placement, probably slightly over cammed. What happens is that the lobes can not be retracted any more in thier normal range of motion so the user pulls on the trigger as hard as they can. this forces the trigger past its normal stopping point and stretchs the trigger wire out. it then slips off the plastic ring that is holding the tension against the spring.
This whole thing is simply due to the user pulling on the trigger to hard to try and force the lobes to retract futher then they should.
The fix is simple... use a pair of needle nose pliers and bend the trigger wire back in place. I fixed mine it works good as new.
If you're still not going to use these, i'll gladly take them off your hands 
Peace
CMT
(This post was edited by CMTomasetti on Oct 14, 2008, 7:34 PM)
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epoch
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Oct 14, 2008, 7:29 PM
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Question #1:
Have you contacted Black Diamond about this?
Question #2:
Does this post precede or follow said contact?
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AlexCV
Oct 14, 2008, 7:42 PM
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mhagny wrote: [image] These go w/ my preceding post.
Those are some really shitty early 90s vintage quality photos.
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mhagny
Oct 14, 2008, 7:45 PM
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Interesting theory. However, in looking at the unit, I don't see how it could happen -- the plastic trigger piece cradles the loop ends of the springs when you pull on the trigger, which should make the loops less likely to pop off (although the loop could perhaps stretch a bit and successfully escape later). Maybe if you pulled on only one side of the trigger, but that would be unusual.
Also, I took my remaining intact C3 units and did quite a bit of strenuous trigger pulling, and added some twisting of the stem, and nothing happens. However, it does appear that not all of the spring loops are equally clamped over the plastic.
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mhagny
Oct 14, 2008, 7:47 PM
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it won't let me upload anything over 150 kb. Maybe there's a better way to resize photos than what I'm doing -- I'm no photo-editor whiz.
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Gmburns2000
Oct 14, 2008, 7:51 PM
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CMTomasetti wrote: The same thing happened to one of my cams and its not the spring that is an issue its the trigger wire that is getting messed up. Black Diamond is correct in stateing that there is no need for a recall. Its a simple user issue..... Heres what happened to mine and my guess is both of yours... The cam was placed, in a non-ideal placement, probably slightly over cammed. What happens is that the lobes can not be retracted any more in thier normal range of motion so the user pulls on the trigger as hard as they can. this forces the trigger past its normal stopping point and stretchs the trigger wire out. it then slips off the plastic ring that is holding the tension against the spring. This whole thing is simply due to the user pulling on the trigger to hard to try and force the lobes to retract futher then they should. The fix is simple... use a pair of needle nose pliers and bend the trigger wire back in place. I fixed mine it works good as new. If you're still not going to use these, i'll gladly take them off your hands Peace CMT
Two questions:
1) - When the trigger wire is yanked out, does this compromise the cam's holding ability?
2) - Has anyone had an issue like this on any other cam? Just wondering if this is normal. Sure, maybe it is user-error, but that doesn't seem acceptable to me. While I certainly do my best to avoid this, I do sometimes over-cam my placements. This isn't due to inexperience per se, but often due to having only one piece of gear that could possibly work in that particular scenario. So while it certainly isn't preferred, I doubt it is completely uncommon, and I would think that a manufacturer would build the cam to avoid this "mistake."
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scottb
Oct 14, 2008, 7:52 PM
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CMTomasetti wrote: Heres what happened to mine and my guess is both of yours... The cam was placed, in a non-ideal placement, probably slightly over cammed. What happens is that the lobes can not be retracted any more in thier normal range of motion so the user pulls on the trigger as hard as they can. this forces the trigger past its normal stopping point and stretchs the trigger wire out. it then slips off the plastic ring that is holding the tension against the spring. This whole thing is simply due to the user pulling on the trigger to hard to try and force the lobes to retract futher then they should. The fix is simple... use a pair of needle nose pliers and bend the trigger wire back in place. I fixed mine it works good as new. If you're still not going to use these, i'll gladly take them off your hands Peace CMT
You beat me to it...
That's what I was thinking.
I agree that this doesn't necessitate a recall and either way it looks like it'd be easy to fix at home (though it's hard to tell without fondling them myself).
And for the record: I luvz my C3s. Luvz 'em.
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carabiner96
Oct 14, 2008, 8:03 PM
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A friend of mine had his red C3 do the same thing.
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hafilax
Oct 14, 2008, 8:04 PM
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Where's the CCH sized outrage?!
C3=alienzz=deathfromabove!!!
Seriously this is a little unnerving and it would be nice to hear a concrete explanation. Telling a climber to not pull too hard on the trigger seems like telling a bull not to run at the red cape.
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Gmburns2000
Oct 14, 2008, 8:12 PM
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hafilax wrote: Seriously this is a little unnerving and it would be nice to hear a concrete explanation. Telling a climber to not pull too hard on the trigger seems like telling a bull not to run at the red cape.
Exactly.
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patmay81
Oct 14, 2008, 8:31 PM
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there is an easy solution to this problem, buy metolius. they are way more burly units (no plastic) and they are WAY cheaper.
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alexmac
Oct 14, 2008, 8:39 PM
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I had the same issue over a year ago.
Reported it, sent cams in, I don't use C3's going forward ever even for body weight aid placements. (then again when was the last time I did aid, 2007)
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Gmburns2000
Oct 14, 2008, 8:46 PM
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patmay81 wrote: there is an easy solution to this problem, buy metolius. they are way more burly units (no plastic) and they are WAY cheaper.
Can't stand the double stem. Very difficult with my fingers. I don't have thick fingers, but I lose a lot of feeling on cool days and my fingertips are kind of sensitive anyway. Though I can say that I got to play with my first Link Cam this weekend and WOWIEEEEE!!!!
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hafilax
Oct 14, 2008, 8:57 PM
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What is a comparison of cams with nothing in common? Alex
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michael_c
Oct 15, 2008, 2:27 AM
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Perhaps a small amount of glue to hold the wire into the plastic a little better might be a bit of a fix.
I haven't had this happen to my C3's. Although I see how it could happen. I'll keep an eye on them.
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jh_angel
Oct 15, 2008, 2:56 AM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: patmay81 wrote: there is an easy solution to this problem, buy metolius. they are way more burly units (no plastic) and they are WAY cheaper. Can't stand the double stem. Very difficult with my fingers. I don't have thick fingers, but I lose a lot of feeling on cool days and my fingertips are kind of sensitive anyway. Though I can say that I got to play with my first Link Cam this weekend and WOWIEEEEE!!!!
I think he was referring to these http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/master_cam.htm.
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mheyman
Oct 15, 2008, 3:11 AM
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Doesn’t make me particularly happy as I am a C3 user, but if the information presented here is correct, and I understand it the there isn't much of a safety issue. If you make a good placement that placement will not fail because of this. The cam doesn’t break till try to you pull it out.
There is likely some risk of breaking a cam and then placing it without realizing it is broken though. Good to know to watch out for this, thanks.
(This post was edited by mheyman on Oct 15, 2008, 12:15 PM)
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alexmac
Oct 15, 2008, 3:18 AM
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Had the cam break on a body weight placement, heads deformed etc
I don't use C3's anymore. Halifax the subject is the C3, I am talking about C3, less time with those from Cape Breton and you may be sober to see I Am talking the same thing.
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mhagny
Oct 15, 2008, 11:51 AM
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alexmac wrote: Had the cam break on a body weight placement, heads deformed etc I don't use C3's anymore. quote] Can you elaborate on the "heads deformed" statement? As for the original question/warning posed in this thread, the hazard (as I see it) is if: A) the spring pops off after placing the C3, due to the rope's light tensioning due to rope drag, or B) during the course of loading while catching a fall, a scenario that causes all sorts of crazy things to happen with the rope/gear/rock interactions. As mentioned, if a spring pops, the unit is highly likely to fail because only 2 lobes are functional at that point. I think what is happening is the partial loop formed by the end of the spring varies a bit in the amount of crimp (tightness of the loop) from one spring to the next, and a small percentage of them eventually manage to pop loose. I think the C3 is a very good design, except for the failure to adequately secure the end of these springs. I have been using one of the Metolius Master Cams lately, and I like it a lot. I like it better than the Wild Country Zeros that I have used for a couple years. The Zeros are decent units, but the springs seem quite soft compared to the C3s, and the wires have a tendency to drag on the lobes after a certain amount of use. But at least they stay together.
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CMTomasetti
Oct 15, 2008, 12:12 PM
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So, "over-camming" might be exact description I should use but this is a hard thing to explain. I'll see if I can't get out and get some pictures and or video of why this happened to my cam...
As for is the holding power compromised the answer is yes. The way the c3 work is that the springs are at the bottom of the cam and push up on the trigger creating the tension between the rock and the cam head. once the trigger is dislodged the spring is no longer pushing on the cam head and it becomes limp. Other cams don't do this because the springs are connected directly to the cam head.
The reason the unique spring position of the C3's is advantageous is that it allows the cam heads to be closer together, which is why the C3 have such a narrow head profile.....
So, again I'm gonna try and get pictures and/or video of exactly what i think is happening..stay tuned
CMT
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smeinhold
Oct 15, 2008, 1:23 PM
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i've had my c3's for over a year and they've saved my life plenty of times. i had a friend break a 000 with multiple 20 ft falls but it held the first few times, not bad for a strictly aid rated piece. between a few buddies of mine and me we've put these cams through the worst of the worst and they've done great.
on a second note, placing smaller cams is more difficult because of the smaller ranges and they seem to get stuck more often than others. to me these seem like user error, not a defect in the cam. i look at my c3's and they are way more mangled than the shiny "broken" one in the picture and they still work great. has that cam even touched rock?
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Gmburns2000
Oct 15, 2008, 1:32 PM
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CMTomasetti wrote: So, "over-camming" might be exact description I should use but this is a hard thing to explain. I'll see if I can't get out and get some pictures and or video of why this happened to my cam... As for is the holding power compromised the answer is yes. The way the c3 work is that the springs are at the bottom of the cam and push up on the trigger creating the tension between the rock and the cam head. once the trigger is dislodged the spring is no longer pushing on the cam head and it becomes limp. Other cams don't do this because the springs are connected directly to the cam head. The reason the unique spring position of the C3's is advantageous is that it allows the cam heads to be closer together, which is why the C3 have such a narrow head profile..... So, again I'm gonna try and get pictures and/or video of exactly what i think is happening..stay tuned CMT
Thanks. I really like my C3s, but I am concerned about this, particularly if the spring pops on P1 and I don't notice it by the time I place it on P3 at the crux. Knowledge of what is really going on is key.
I guess I also don't understand why BD doesn't try to explain why this isn't a problem (this isn't directed at you, CMT). If it isn't, then OK, I can chalk that up to me not understanding the device from a mechanics perspective (I'm a writer not an engineer), but by saying nothing I get the feeling that they are saying, "just trust us, it's OK." I've never trusted someone who essentially says "because I said so," and I'm hesitant to do so now.
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the_climber
Oct 15, 2008, 4:13 PM
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OMG no, really, f'd up C3's! Say it ain't so man, just say it ain't so!
OMG not a design flaw with the C3's! O M G nooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!! What will the world do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Seriously I am ssssssssssoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo surprized at this, from BD! O M G! Now I'll have to go back to my Metolius/ballnut/old4cam-micro-camalot set-up from the C3's set-up I didn't buy because of the design in the first place! OMG how will I ever survive?
OH,wait, it's all good.
This little isse with the C3's isn't new at all. It's been happening to a lot of people. When placed trhe unit will still cam, but extraction becomes the issue.... or is it the design in the 1st place that is the issue?
Look I like BD cams, I really do despite them not being what I reach for 1st on my rack, I do like them. Do I think there is an over reliance on Camalots? Well that's another story. I do think that for how hard "I" am on my gear the C3's would be a poor choice for a gear purchace for "me".
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mhagny
Oct 15, 2008, 4:25 PM
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When a spring pops, that lobe is no longer functioning -- it has no pressure on it, and you have a very unstable situation with only 2 lobes camming. End of story.
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epoch
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Oct 15, 2008, 4:29 PM
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epoch wrote: Question #1: Have you contacted Black Diamond about this? Question #2: Does this post precede or follow said contact? |
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vegastradguy
Oct 15, 2008, 4:39 PM
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epoch- the op did contact bd about this, then posted here.
as to the trigger wire popping (thats what it is, it isnt the spring)- i had this happen to my....either yellow or red one, cant remember which. i had place both of them a few inches apart, fell on the top one, the lower one's trigger wire popped.
after an annoying half an hour, i did manage to re-insert the wire. i did call BD beforehand, they told me that the wire probably wasn't curved quite enough during assembly, thus making it prone to pop. i curved it a little more when i put it back in, and i havent had the problem since. (i got that particular C3 right when they came out).
the only down side is that once that wire pops, the cams ability to cam is compromised- due to the springs being below the trigger assembly rather than above it.
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billcoe_
Oct 15, 2008, 4:46 PM
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vegastradguy wrote: epoch- the op did contact bd about this, then posted here. as to the trigger wire popping (thats what it is, it isnt the spring)- i had this happen to my....either yellow or red one, cant remember which. i had place both of them a few inches apart, fell on the top one, the lower one's trigger wire popped. after an annoying half an hour, i did manage to re-insert the wire. i did call BD beforehand, they told me that the wire probably wasn't curved quite enough during assembly, thus making it prone to pop. i curved it a little more when i put it back in, and i havent had the problem since. (i got that particular C3 right when they came out). the only down side is that once that wire pops, the cams ability to cam is compromised- due to the springs being below the trigger assembly rather than above it.
This must be a fairly limited issue as I don't recall hearing of any whippers not being held by them. As far as the Metolious goes, they have the opposite issue, those things stick more than most cams, and you need to take care not to get them permanently stuck.
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Gmburns2000
Oct 15, 2008, 5:13 PM
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vegastradguy wrote: the only down side is that once that wire pops, the cams ability to cam is compromised- due to the springs being below the trigger assembly rather than above it.
I'm still a bit confused as to why there are so many people saying it is not an issue then. It seems to me that if a cam is compromised then the piece is not as reliable when broken vs when not broken, and therefore it should not be trusted, but I'm hearing a bunch of people say it's OK. 
Am I incorrect in using the analogy of a wire popping out of a nut? I know when the wire pops out of a nut then the nut is completely useless, and it seems that maybe the C3 could still hold a fall on the other two cams. But really, if the cam is compromised, doesn't that call into question the gear's reliability?
Sorry for continued questions folks, but I'm just baffled that people are shrugging this off, and I really want to understand why this is not an issue, particularly since I've read at least two responses that say the cam with the pulled wire is compromised.
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mheyman
Oct 15, 2008, 5:15 PM
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mhagny wrote: When a spring pops, that lobe is no longer functioning -- it has no pressure on it, and you have a very unstable situation with only 2 lobes camming. End of story.
Don't think anyone is argueing this.
I was assuming that In reply to: This whole thing is simply due to the user pulling on the trigger to hard to try and force the lobes to retract futher then they should.
The issues are
1) Will this happen on it's own after you have made a good placement?
2)How much risk is there of placeing a piece that has been damaged this way?
Thanks for aking us aware. I know I will inspect my C3s and placemnts more carefully.
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donald949
Oct 15, 2008, 6:36 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: vegastradguy wrote: the only down side is that once that wire pops, the cams ability to cam is compromised- due to the springs being below the trigger assembly rather than above it. I'm still a bit confused as to why there are so many people saying it is not an issue then. It seems to me that if a cam is compromised then the piece is not as reliable when broken vs when not broken, and therefore it should not be trusted, but I'm hearing a bunch of people say it's OK. Am I incorrect in using the analogy of a wire popping out of a nut? I know when the wire pops out of a nut then the nut is completely useless, and it seems that maybe the C3 could still hold a fall on the other two cams. But really, if the cam is compromised, doesn't that call into question the gear's reliability? Sorry for continued questions folks, but I'm just baffled that people are shrugging this off, and I really want to understand why this is not an issue, particularly since I've read at least two responses that say the cam with the pulled wire is compromised.
If the spring isn't holding the cam lobe on to the rock face, then it's not going to take a load during a fall. We then und up with an unstable 2 out 3 cam that is going piviot one direction or another under a fall.
Given the number of responses above with people relating how theirs/their friends cams did this, I got to agree with Greg. Its Unsat. Sure you can inspect your cam and trigger wires closely every time you place it, but that ain't right.
I've always been kind of a Metolious guy. Sure the newest and latest C4 Camalots are nice, but gen 1 were fugly.
D
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boadman
Oct 15, 2008, 7:44 PM
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Why is it un-nerving? For a properly placed cam, the spring shouldn't affect the holding power of the unit.
hafilax wrote: Where's the CCH sized outrage?! C3=alienzz=deathfromabove!!! Seriously this is a little unnerving and it would be nice to hear a concrete explanation. Telling a climber to not pull too hard on the trigger seems like telling a bull not to run at the red cape. |
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Gmburns2000
Oct 15, 2008, 7:53 PM
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boadman wrote: Why is it un-nerving? For a properly placed cam, the spring shouldn't affect the holding power of the unit. hafilax wrote: Where's the CCH sized outrage?! C3=alienzz=deathfromabove!!! Seriously this is a little unnerving and it would be nice to hear a concrete explanation. Telling a climber to not pull too hard on the trigger seems like telling a bull not to run at the red cape.
But this seems to be the issue doesn't it? Look, I know that a properly placed cam is significantly stronger than one that is not properly placed, but I'll tell you that in the heat of the moment, as you're struggling to protect a runout during a sustained crux, you just might plug and go with the knowledge that maybe the placement wasn't great but that also, just maybe, that the piece will hold. I had nearly that precise situation this weekend, except that instead of a cam it was a nut, and the nut held despite it having absolutely no right to actually do so. The nut was not placed properly, but I never worried about the nut itself failing, just my poor placement. With this cam, it seems one has to worry about both.
I just don't know of any other cam where it has to be fairly well-inspected every time it is placed just in case it wasn't properly placed the last time. I look at my gear before I place it, but I don't do a thorough inspection each time. To do that would mean staying below my comfort level and not pushing scary cruxes where plugging quick and easy gear (aka - cams) is sometimes required. Seriously, is there another piece of equipment out there that is like this, where one has to worry about it being placed properly every time in order for it to work? Because, like I said, while it isn't the preferred practice, there are certainly moments when gear that is not placed well still holds a fall.
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kennoyce
Oct 15, 2008, 8:25 PM
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what are you talking about? of course the spring affects the holding power of any cam, properly, or improperly placed. If there is no spring, there is nothing to hold the cam lobe against the rock, and therefor the cam will have no holding power, no matter how its placed. I'm glad I haven't got any C3's, and I probably never will.
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boadman
Oct 15, 2008, 8:30 PM
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The friction between the cam and the rock is generated by downward force on the stem, not by outward force on the springs. If the trigger wires were super flexible, there would be a chance that the cam could rotate independently away from the rock when the spring broke, but that's not the case for the C3s, or any cam but the metolius ones with the nylon triggers.
kennoyce wrote: what are you talking about? of course the spring affects the holding power of any cam, properly, or improperly placed. If there is no spring, there is nothing to hold the cam lobe against the rock, and therefor the cam will have no holding power, no matter how its placed. I'm glad I haven't got any C3's, and I probably never will. |
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HappinessIsWinning
Oct 15, 2008, 8:55 PM
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In reply to: Why is it un-nerving? For a properly placed cam, the spring shouldn't affect the holding power of the unit. kennoyce wrote: what are you talking about? of course the spring affects the holding power of any cam, properly, or improperly placed. If there is no spring, there is nothing to hold the cam lobe against the rock, and therefor the cam will have no holding power, no matter how its placed. I'm glad I haven't got any C3's, and I probably never will. boadman wrote: The friction between the cam and the rock is generated by downward force on the stem, not by outward force on the springs. If the trigger wires were super flexible, there would be a chance that the cam could rotate independently away from the rock when the spring broke, but that's not the case for the C3s, or any cam but the metolius ones with the nylon triggers.
boadman you should field test your theory. Try removing the springs from your cams (and I'm not referring to the "trigger cables") and see awesome your cams work. 
EDITED: After looking at your profile I would assume you know what he is talking about. You must just be confused about what he is saying.
(This post was edited by HappinessIsWinning on Oct 15, 2008, 8:58 PM)
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donald949
Oct 15, 2008, 8:56 PM
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boadman wrote: Why is it un-nerving? For a properly placed cam, the spring shouldn't affect the holding power of the unit. hafilax wrote: Where's the CCH sized outrage?! C3=alienzz=deathfromabove!!! Seriously this is a little unnerving and it would be nice to hear a concrete explanation. Telling a climber to not pull too hard on the trigger seems like telling a bull not to run at the red cape.
Re holding power:
The strength of the spring does not affect the holding power during loading from a fall, that is correct.
BUT, and it is a big but, the spring affects the contact force when the cam is not being loaded prior to a fall. Up until the milli second before the cam unit is loaded, the spring is keeping the cam lobes pressed against the rock. It, the spring, is providing the Normal force on the crack sides. If the lobe is not pressed against the rock the second that its loaded from the fall, and there is no spring to push it back out, that cam lobe will not rotate out against the rock by itself. Now the lobe MAY catch a raised rock point and grab, but more than likely not.
We could look at it this way. If we cut the springs on a cam unit, placed it in a vert crack, pushed the cams out by hand, pulled down on the unit, it would hold. But once we let go and took one move up the rock, the lobes would release and the unit would fall.
Hope this helps, D
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kennoyce
Oct 15, 2008, 8:56 PM
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[ The friction between the cam and the rock is generated by downward force on the stem, not by outward force on the springs.]
Obviously, I too am an engineer, but if there is no spring, then there is nothing to hold the cam in place until that downward force on the stem is applied.
[If the trigger wires were super flexible, there would be a chance that the cam could rotate independently away from the rock when the spring broke, but that's not the case for the C3s, or any cam but the metolius ones with the nylon triggers. ]
I have no idea what you're trying to say here, but regardless, if you don't have a spring then the cam lobe will not engage the rock, and therefor you have no holding power. This is a major issue.
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climbinginchico
Oct 15, 2008, 9:01 PM
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For crying out loud people, this is a user issue not a design issue. It only happens if you pull way too hard on the trigger, severely overcamming the device. It sounds like there might have some early production issues, but I have had mine for two years and have used them constantly with no problems.
Just for the record I also have a full set of aliens that I use. Those are pre-recall.
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boadman
Oct 15, 2008, 9:13 PM
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Actually, I've climbed with a cam with a broken spring that I was too lazy to fix for a while and even fallen on it and it works fine, except for being a little hard to place. If you give the cam a jerk to set it, the trigger wires will hold the cam against the rock with enough force for it to engage in the event of a fall. This won't work if all the springs are broken, but with just one broken, the other cams will keep the trigger assembly in position to hold the cam against the rock. It's not optimal, but it's not life threatening. However, if you don't sling the cam well, and you climb past it and jar it out of position, there's a chance that it won't catch. A pretty small chance in my opinion.
kennoyce wrote: [ The friction between the cam and the rock is generated by downward force on the stem, not by outward force on the springs.] Obviously, I too am an engineer, but if there is no spring, then there is nothing to hold the cam in place until that downward force on the stem is applied. [If the trigger wires were super flexible, there would be a chance that the cam could rotate independently away from the rock when the spring broke, but that's not the case for the C3s, or any cam but the metolius ones with the nylon triggers. ] I have no idea what you're trying to say here, but regardless, if you don't have a spring then the cam lobe will not engage the rock, and therefor you have no holding power. This is a major issue. |
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Gmburns2000
Oct 15, 2008, 9:14 PM
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climbinginchico wrote: For crying out loud people, this is a user issue not a design issue. It only happens if you pull way too hard on the trigger, severely overcamming the device. It sounds like there might have some early production issues, but I have had mine for two years and have used them constantly with no problems. Just for the record I also have a full set of aliens that I use. Those are pre-recall.
Please name another cam that has this issue, and please state that you have placed the perfect cam in every single instance you have ever placed one. I guess the point is that one expects the product to be somewhat idiot proof up to a certain degree. I'm not talking about making a cup of coffee for Starbucks that will never ever burn the customer, but I am saying that Starbucks isn't dumb enough to pour hot coffee into notebook paper and expect the customer to not be burnt by it. There is a middle ground here, and I just can't understand why some people are not worried about this. As far as I know, none of my other cams require me to be perfect like this each time.
I shouldn't have to worry every single time I place that cam that the trigger wire may pop if I over cam it. Seriously, who worries about that with any other cam?
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tomcat
Oct 15, 2008, 9:21 PM
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Boy,I can't imagine owning C3's and not pulling"too hard" on the triggers,they stick like crazy,like too much sometimes.
So far I have three C3's and one Mastercam,and neither do I like as well as my Aliens.
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climbinginchico
Oct 15, 2008, 9:48 PM
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I just tried and can't replicate this problem with my c3's. And, I have pulled the trigger wire out of the lobes on an alien when it caught a stick on approach. Pulled the tiny wire right out of the lobe. theoretically any cam could pull a trigger wire out if you pull too hard. Maybe because the wires aren't looped on the c3 it is a bit more likely but still not definite.
I don't know about others but my c3's have a spring beneath the trigger ensuring that I can't overcam it to the point of breaking. Perhaps this was added later in production?
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scottb
Oct 15, 2008, 10:00 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: climbinginchico wrote: For crying out loud people, this is a user issue not a design issue. It only happens if you pull way too hard on the trigger, severely overcamming the device. It sounds like there might have some early production issues, but I have had mine for two years and have used them constantly with no problems. Just for the record I also have a full set of aliens that I use. Those are pre-recall. Please name another cam that has this issue, and please state that you have placed the perfect cam in every single instance you have ever placed one. I guess the point is that one expects the product to be somewhat idiot proof up to a certain degree. I'm not talking about making a cup of coffee for Starbucks that will never ever burn the customer, but I am saying that Starbucks isn't dumb enough to pour hot coffee into notebook paper and expect the customer to not be burnt by it. There is a middle ground here, and I just can't understand why some people are not worried about this. As far as I know, none of my other cams require me to be perfect like this each time. I shouldn't have to worry every single time I place that cam that the trigger wire may pop if I over cam it. Seriously, who worries about that with any other cam?
Greg, here's why I'm not worried about this:
*If this happens to one of your cams, it will be obvious when it actually happens. This isn't something that requires careful inspection.
*As far as I've been able to tell, this only happens when cleaning the piece. There is no way that I can imagine that the trigger wire would detach in between the time that you place it and the time that you would fall on it.
*If it happens mid-climb and you need the piece again, a two-lobed piece is better than nothing.
* You can fix it yourself.
*I bought my C3s almost as soon as they were available. I have made plenty of less-than-perfect placements that have required aggressive cleaning and this hasn't happened yet. So I feel pretty confident that it's not going to happen with mine. Though I will keep it in mind when I inspect my gear from time to time.
* I may get heat for this one: I trust BD. And I would expect them to do the right thing if their gear was, in fact, dangerous.
Just my take on the issue, everyone needs to take responsibility for themselves. I certainly am not going give anyone a hard time for their personal choice in regards to this... also, I'm happy to rethink things if I am missing something huge.
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madrusski
Oct 15, 2008, 10:44 PM
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I have had a similar issue with my Metolius 00. One of the springs came loose and no longer functioned. It was placed on pitch 1 and I only noticed it on pitch 3 or so and decided not to place the unit after that. It was a brand new cam. After playing with the unit for about 15 min at home I managed to put the spring back into place and it behaved ever since (I also bent the spring a little more on the end to ensure a more secure hold).
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Gmburns2000
Oct 15, 2008, 11:35 PM
Post #51 of 54
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scottb wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: I shouldn't have to worry every single time I place that cam that the trigger wire may pop if I over cam it. Seriously, who worries about that with any other cam? Greg, here's why I'm not worried about this: *If this happens to one of your cams, it will be obvious when it actually happens. This isn't something that requires careful inspection.
While I didn't assume otherwise, this is good to know. I did have an instance this past weekend where the lobes of a friend's aliens did not spring back well, and so I asked her what was up. She said it needed cleaning. She cleaned it that night and it worked fine. But I guess my point is that it was easy to notice that presumed flaw, and it seems your point about this being easily noticed is well taken.
In reply to: *As far as I've been able to tell, this only happens when cleaning the piece. There is no way that I can imagine that the trigger wire would detach in between the time that you place it and the time that you would fall on it.
While I'm not going to rely on this entirely as the truth, I can see how it is certainly easier to push a cam in when fully cammed than it is to pull one out in the same circumstance (captain obvious, right? ), and therefore I can see where pulling the trigger even farther than when it is fully cammed to remove it would be the best chance of this happening.
In reply to: *If it happens mid-climb and you need the piece again, a two-lobed piece is better than nothing. * You can fix it yourself.
I can see why that might be OK to some, but not to me. But that's neither here nor there.
In reply to: *I bought my C3s almost as soon as they were available. I have made plenty of less-than-perfect placements that have required aggressive cleaning and this hasn't happened yet. So I feel pretty confident that it's not going to happen with mine. Though I will keep it in mind when I inspect my gear from time to time.
I bought them, too, because I don't like Aliens that much. I haven't had this problem, but I really wanted to hear why people aren't worried. This helped. Thanks.
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josephgdawson
Oct 15, 2008, 11:43 PM
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I guess this is in addition to the design flaw that the cams suck to begin with.
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climbinginchico
Oct 16, 2008, 12:51 AM
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I'm fully aware of how the cams function. I'm just saying that on mine it's impossible to pull the trigger far enough to pull the trigger wire out of the little plastic keeper under the trigger. The springs simply pack out and compress fully before enough force capable of noodling the trigger wire can be exerted. I think I had initially misunderstood and thought the spring had pulled from the trigger going up too far (yeah I'm retarded at times). It doesn't help that I'm typing this on my iPhone at work to get around the content blocker here. Makes it hard to read an entire post on the small screen.
I wonder how hard one would have to pull a c4 trigger wire out of the cam lobe. And would it noodle out or would the swage fail first? Design flaw?
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mhagny
Oct 16, 2008, 9:26 AM
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I think what is happening is that there's a very slight variation in amount of crimp (tightness of the loop) on the end of the spring. Those spring loops that happen to be slightly more open are the ones that pop, and apparently I ended up with two instances of this (as luck would have it). Some of you have had C3s stand up to extensive use, including absorbing several falls, and I would venture a guess that your C3s happen to have wire loops that are very slightly tighter.
The problem with the slightly loose spring loops is that we cannot predict when they might pop. Maybe it happens only when retrieving the piece, but I would want some strong evidence of that before considering this design flaw a non-issue for safety purposes. In studying the problem, it certainly appears that the loop could pop after the piece is placed, particularly if there's some awkward rope drag, or in the craziness that occurs as the piece is being loaded while catching a fall, or as it is loaded as part of an anchor.
I would suggest that everyone with C3s who wishes to continue using them put theirs thru a stress test -- twist the stem repeatedly, bend it, etc. while holding the lobes partly compressed between your fingers. Try it again with the trigger partly pulled, and again with it fully pulled. If you can't get any springs to pop with all that, you probably have a safe C3 unit.
As for glue to help secure the loop ends, it had better be some strong, flexible stuff. You would probably accomplish a lot more by finding some very slender needle-nose pliers and attempting to crimp the loop a bit more.
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