I think we should push for more regulation of people who wish to procreate before we meddle with climbers

Anyone ever heard of "temprary bolts" before?

1/4 inch expansion bolt maybe?

The description of the hilti KB3 1/4" X 1 3/4" is:
"An expansion bolt for aid climbing and alpine raps. Can also be used as a temporary prep bolt for bolting lines."

Button heads kill. There just a stud with "wings" you beat into the hole. How ever they can be removed easily so they still get used. It is fucking weak to not replace them after the line is done.

Wow, what a completely ignorant statement.

I think we should push for more regulation of people who wish to procreate before we meddle with climbers

That article is full of errors there is no use jumping to conclusions.

The article should be ignored.

How many have you pulled and replaced with good bolts?

"There was speculation the climbers may have got off route and ended up on another climb which was only partially finished with small, temporary bolts."

Anyone ever heard of "temprary bolts" before?

Dozens, like more than 50 less than 100. I've pulled bran new ones, 30yr old ones and everything in between.

I also regularly use them when drilling by hand on new routes. I have personally placed at least 100 of em. I've whipped on them, hauled double bags on them, hung a portaledge in a storm on them. I'm here to tell you that when they are placed correctly they are bomber.

Yeah, after 30 years they may not be so reliable, but that's not my problem. If the route is in an area where it will see many accents, I will replace them with something bigger, but if it's in the back country I'm not going out of my way to replace them so that some wanker can come along 10 years later and have some delusional feeling of safety.

Button heads don't kill, dumbass decisions kill.

I also regularly use them when drilling by hand on new routes. I have personally placed at least 100 of em. I've whipped on them, hauled double bags on them, hung a portaledge in a storm on them. I'm here to tell you that when they are placed correctly they are bomber.

Yeah, after 30 years they may not be so reliable, but that's not my problem. If the route is in an area where it will see many accents, I will replace them with something bigger, but if it's in the back country I'm not going out of my way to replace them so that some wanker can come along 10 years later and have some delusional feeling of safety.

Button heads don't kill, dumbass decisions kill.

One bolt, eh? Of the same ilk as the one that broke? If so, did the cut rope save the belayer's life? Weird.

Dozens, like more than 50 less than 100. I've pulled bran new ones, 30yr old ones and everything in between.

I also regularly use them when drilling by hand on new routes. I have personally placed at least 100 of em. I've whipped on them, hauled double bags on them, hung a portaledge in a storm on them. I'm here to tell you that when they are placed correctly they are bomber.

Yeah, after 30 years they may not be so reliable, but that's not my problem. If the route is in an area where it will see many accents, I will replace them with something bigger, but if it's in the back country I'm not going out of my way to replace them so that some wanker can come along 10 years later and have some delusional feeling of safety.

Button heads don't kill, dumbass decisions kill.

Yea, Who cares if some wanker get's killed 10 years after you did the line. You got your name in the book, that is all that matters.

The convention is in the Blue Mountains that all new fixed hardware will be glue in U's or rings.

That's cool. I doubt its an unreasonable group request either. I'm all for respecting local ethics and standards.

But of course I'd object if you suggested I was being selfish or unsafe or inconsiderate not to use your Blue Mountain bolting standards on a new route in the California back country, on granite.

And in that medium? Hard granite deep in the back country? 1/4 inch button heads go in way faster and with a lot less work and are bloody well strong when placed properly.

I've helped to open two new big wall routes in the back country. Those WERE equipped with subsequent ascents in mind, though if I have my way one of them will never be reported anyway.

My point is I know what the alternatives are like, as I have employed them all.

I know you of all people realize this phil, so I'm not preaching at you brother.

I'm speaking against folks who would suggest that crags, big walls and back country first ascent routes ALL have the same protection requirements and standards.

Cheers
DMT

Yea, Who cares if some wanker get's killed 10 years after you did the line. You got your name in the book, that is all that matters.

There you go with the ignorance thing again.

Is what it is. It's still weak to use hammer in's and not bolts just because they are cheaper and easier to install. I don't care where you climb.

Why?

It's not that they're "cheaper and easier" so much as they are safer for the F.A. From what experience do you base your opinion on? Have you ever put up hard committing routes while drilling on stance by hand? Feeling the rubber slowly melting off the nub your standing on, facing the unknown yet certain consequences should you loose your concentration for one split second all the while gripping your hand drill in a desperate frenzy to finish the work so you can clip in and finally feel if only for a few moments some calm before you once again cast off into the unknown.

You have some delusional misconceptions about why some people climb. Not everyone is like you, they don't need nor expect anyone to safeguard them from harm. You feel it's the F.A's responsibility to protect a route (to your perceived acceptable standard) for everyone else that might come along and climb it. Why?

What's weak is to press your standards on others regardless of where and who they are. Every area has it's own unique standards. To scoff at those standards because you have your own ideals of acceptability is both foolish and ignorant at best, insulting and threatening at worst.

To claim that my motivation for climbing is to get my name in a book is a moot argument as I doubt you have any capacity to understand my motivations. I don't need your safety, I don't need your regulations, fat bolts, man pri's, guides, sponsors or praise. I just need my mountains and I'll be fine.

I never clip into a cam without scrutiny and suspicion the same as I never clip a bolt without the same judgment. I don't expect anyone to look after my safety on the rock and that's the way it should be. To climb in a reckless ignorant bliss expecting it's always up to someone else to make sure what I clip is good is total nonsense.

So making some blanket statement about something you know little or nothing about isnt doing anything to back up your claims.

I invite you to come on down at your leisure to climb with me and friends at any time. We'll hash over these matters with a round of beers around a campfire in Camp 4. I'll show you the value of a buttonhead and I guarantee I'll send you home with a changed mind.

Why?

It's not that they're "cheaper and easier" so much as they are safer for the F.A. From what experience do you base your opinion on? Have you ever put up hard committing routes while drilling on stance by hand? Feeling the rubber slowly melting off the nub your standing on, facing the unknown yet certain consequences should you loose your concentration for one split second all the while gripping your hand drill in a desperate frenzy to finish the work so you can clip in and finally feel if only for a few moments some calm before you once again cast off into the unknown.

You have some delusional misconceptions about why some people climb. Not everyone is like you, they don't need nor expect anyone to safeguard them from harm. You feel it's the F.A's responsibility to protect a route (to your perceived acceptable standard) for everyone else that might come along and climb it. Why?

What's weak is to press your standards on others regardless of where and who they are. Every area has it's own unique standards. To scoff at those standards because you have your own ideals of acceptability is both foolish and ignorant at best, insulting and threatening at worst.

To claim that my motivation for climbing is to get my name in a book is a moot argument as I doubt you have any capacity to understand my motivations. I don't need your safety, I don't need your regulations, fat bolts, man pri's, guides, sponsors or praise. I just need my mountains and I'll be fine.

I never clip into a cam without scrutiny and suspicion the same as I never clip a bolt without the same judgment. I don't expect anyone to look after my safety on the rock and that's the way it should be. To climb in a reckless ignorant bliss expecting it's always up to someone else to make sure what I clip is good is total nonsense.

So making some blanket statement about something you know little or nothing about isnt doing anything to back up your claims.

I invite you to come on down at your leisure to climb with me and friends at any time. We'll hash over these matters with a round of beers around a campfire in Camp 4. I'll show you the value of a buttonhead and I guarantee I'll send you home with a changed mind.

Just a note about the press. You can all see the terrible job the press did in reporting on this story. Please think about that the next time you read another article or watch another news story on television that is not related to climbing.

Technically, I am part of the subset of humanity known as "the media," and I couldn't agree more. I just had some dealings with other members of the media in regard to a skydiver who died in an accident in California. Definitely put a sour taste in my mouth.

I never said not to use them on lead, Just they should be replaced with a higher standard bolt after the line is done.

I'm as old school as anyone. I've been climbing for over 25 years. We (as climbers) set a standard or one will be set for us by non climbers.

Weak standards are weak standards, Do you even know the "pull" and "shear" on a button head?

I don't care why you climb. There our mountains not just yours.

When you set a cam for your self you make the call if your happy with it. If your not, you can use a different placement of different cam. With fixed pro people have no way of making it safer and thus must trust the person that put it. So yes it should be put in at the highest standard it can be.

Don't be so sure. And the pull/shears on a button head speak for them self.

I respect the old ways to a point. I don't like anyone telling us as climbers what we can do or not do. at least 1/2 the button heads I have pulled and replaced had cracks below the heads at the hanger. In some cases they were cracked 1/2 way though. Call the people you get them from and ask them what the shear is on them. Then come back and tell me again how safe they are. I'm not a hater, I don't feel we should make rules to limit what people can climb on.
However, if I choose to do a new line it is up to me to make that line as safe as it can be. As far as camp 4 and a few beers? I will sit and talk to anyone about these things in person or on line. I have yet to meet one climber that didn't have some point of view worth hearing about bolting. I FUCKING HATE BUTTON HEADS!!! And it is because I have pulled and replaced as many as I have. If I do a line that has them I replace them as I rap down. I myself would much rather spend a day improving a old line then making a new one with crappy, cheap, out dated button heads. Like I said before, It is what it is.
For me it is like using nails that "might" hold up the sheet rock over my babies crib. But then again I hold a higher standard in the work I do also. Some guys still use cut nails in there framing nail guns even when they know they have been outlawed in most states because they don't hold the walls together in big storms. I have just found that "good enough" is almost never as good as it could or even should be.

That's what I'm trying to get you to acknowledge.

Boooorrriiing....

As long as where you climb the people are ok with what you do, Then it is what it is. You should still be clear that they should only be placed in HARD granite and even then only on lead. I haven't even went into the crap hangers you have to use with button heads

I took a course at work to get certified to install anchor-bolts (expansion-type, glue-in, etc) in an industrial setting. (I am certified by "HILTI") If a rotating piece of equipment comes loose from the concrete and kills someone nearby I can almost guarantee it was installed by someone who did NOT know what they were doing.

thanks for posting that article that seemed quite accurate. my condolences to the friends and family as well. this forum is..."THE rock climbing community denies greater regulation of the sport is needed despite an experienced climber plunging to his death in the Blue Mountains." This shouldn't be about regulating climbing (if you want to climb a tree or a mountain that is your choice) but this should be about regulating the sale of anchor bolts. I saw a post on "how to install anchor bolts" and I didn't reply but it still gave me goose-bumps! I took a course at work to get certified to install anchor-bolts (expansion-type, glue-in, etc) in an industrial setting. (I am certified by "HILTI") If a rotating piece of equipment comes loose from the concrete and kills someone nearby I can almost guarantee it was installed by someone who did NOT know what they were doing. I totally agree that if installed properly (proper size, strength, and proper installation techniques, etc) anchor bolts are "bomber". What I don't agree with is that any idiot with a hammer-drill can jump on a piece of rock and go to town installing anchor-bolts! I hear there are ethics like "place bolt every 3 metres" or "don't place a bolt next to a crack where pro can be used". I really don't care if there are bolts every 3 feet as long as they installed correctly! I am a sport climber mostly but just started buying trad gear (building my first rack) for the main reason that if I don't like the look of a bolt (sketchy, loose, rusted) I want to be able to protect myself, period. I might try and tighten a bolt if it's stainless and doesn't have a half inch of threads showing but I would never remove or chop a bolt. That's not my responsibility. My only responsibility would be to install a bolt correctly (if I chose to) for future climbers AND to protect myself. I have no intentions to ever bolt my own route and get my name in a guide-book because I've spent enough time on a hammer-drill and don't want to use one on a day off from work! There are enough bolted routes in this world for me! I believe anchor bolts should be like bullets. You should need proper certification to buy both. If you want to buy them on the black-market... fine. Just go bolt your backyard only!

scottek - I have one question:

Are you certified to buy that trad rack?

If not, why not?

DMT

Climbing is not a Group Hug. Don't ever forget that.

“This kind of rock, sandstone, turns into a featureless mass of mud, sand, lichens and human sweat when the rain falls. It is impossible to climb on it as there is no friction (very different from limestone which is climbable when wet). Also the wet sandstone is prone to breaking. During our ascent some parts of route looked like we were climbing on a pile of ceramic tiles. You carefully grab a horizontal tile like hold (harder layers in sandwich between softer sand base) sticking out of a rock, you move up and when you step on it, it brakes, but you are already holding a next hold.”

“Grade of the route tells nothing about its complexity. We started climbing early in the morning after a few days of rain. Everything was slippery, breakable and full of mud. The worst thing is that the bolts are not holding in this soft rock. You place the bolt, apply the weight and it’s already turning. Some of them we could take out with a bare hand!”

Simon Carter posted an update.

Discussion with the bolter is included, as is video of the bolt removal.

A quote (translated) from the bolter:

Across international lines? Can that work?

sure, why not? I guess it depends on treaties and so on, but folks in other countries get sued in the US all the time, and vice versa. Whether or not the funds are paid may be different, however.

If a liability suit of this sorts comes to fruition we can pretty much be assued that guidebooks and open reporting of new routes will STOP. Entirely.

I've created bolted face climbs. The climber assumes full risk if she decides to trust those bolts. Until a court says other wise.

When a court says otherwise I will have reported my last drilled bolt.

I say it's not IF.... it's WHEN.

And when it happens, climbing clubs along the lines of hunting clubs, will become the defact standard in the U.S. as the only practical way to manage the liabilities.

It is a stinky can of worms. Someone, perhaps someone on this board, will one day sue a first ascentionist team for something - and win.

Climbing as we know it will cease that day.

Any mention of a liability lawsuit directed at FA teams should be SHOUTED DOWN. Repeatedly.

DMT

I hear you.

I think I have already reported my last drilled bolt anyway.

I can easily envision an online guide provoking a similar lawsuit. The 'we own your data' philosophy will come back to haunt management, on that day.

You own the data? You own the liability. Disclaimers won't be of any help at that point.

DMT

I hear you.

I think I have already reported my last drilled bolt anyway.

I can easily envision an online guide provoking a similar lawsuit. The 'we own your data' philosophy will come back to haunt management, on that day.

You own the data? You own the liability. Disclaimers won't be of any help at that point.

DMT

I don't disagree with the notion that certification is impractical, but the big difference is that with a traditional rack, you are not creating an attractive hazard to endanger other people.

Simon Carter posted an update.

Discussion with the bolter is included, as is video of the bolt removal.

Very scary how easily some of those bolts came out!

I'm curious why they didn't re-equip the route with proper hardware? (This seems like a prime candidate for glue-in bolts.) Is the route too dangerous because of the sharp edges, or just too poor quality of a route, perhaps?

Sad story, though.

No. Sorry. Absolutely not. That route is one of the most worthless piles of rubbish I have ever seen in my life. I imagine (or hope) that it could have only ever been a visiting climber, who cared nothing for the quality of they did, would ever seriously consider putting a "route" up there.

Any mention of a liability lawsuit directed at FA teams should be SHOUTED DOWN. Repeatedly.

Some seem to be speaking as if a failing bolt killed the climber. Unless I've missed it, none of the bolts failed for the climbers. They were easily removed by other parties investigating later.

The climber got off route, fell, his rope was cut, and he fell to his death.

It was the team's judgment to follow what turned out to be the wrong line.

The bolters bear the responsibility of doing a poor job, and could fairly be considered reckless (wet sandstone and recommendations against their approach from locals). But talk of liability seems misguided.

IF the rope had not been cut, the consensus seems to be that the bolts would not have held. Perhaps the belayer would also have been pulled from the wall. The cut rope may have saved the belayer's life.

A very tragic situation.

Some seem to be speaking as if a failing bolt killed the climber. Unless I've missed it, none of the bolts failed for the climbers.

In fact you missed it. The climber weighted a bolt, which failed, with the result that he fell over a sharp ledge which cut the rope.

If a liability suit of this sorts comes to fruition we can pretty much be assued that guidebooks and open reporting of new routes will STOP. Entirely.

I've created bolted face climbs. The climber assumes full risk if she decides to trust those bolts. Until a court says other wise.

When a court says otherwise I will have reported my last drilled bolt.

I say it's not IF.... it's WHEN.

And when it happens, climbing clubs along the lines of hunting clubs, will become the defact standard in the U.S. as the only practical way to manage the liabilities.

It is a stinky can of worms. Someone, perhaps someone on this board, will one day sue a first ascentionist team for something - and win.

Climbing as we know it will cease that day.

Any mention of a liability lawsuit directed at FA teams should be SHOUTED DOWN. Repeatedly.

DMT

Climbing as we know it died 20 years...this is just the DEATH rattle.

Wow. Just, wow. What a sad, sad story.

My condolences to the bereaved, and shame on the FA team.

GO

I really think you are looking at this as being only black or white, dingus. Even if these guys were held liable for the bolting, I don't think any other bolter should get worried. Remember the facts:

* The bolters used bolts that were not suitable for climbing
* The bolters were told not to use those bolts by local climbers, but did so anyway
* The bolters knew the bolts they put in were worthless (they mentioned on their home forum that they could take some out by hand)
* They named the route and sent in a topo the the guidebook producer, making no mention of bad bolts

I think any jury would see quite a big difference between the above case and a case of a rusty 30 year old peg braking after fallen on.

I don't get this. Now we're judging the FAs style but in 100 other threads the FAs decisions are considered unquestionable????

I don't get this. Now we're judging the FAs style but in 100 other threads the FAs decisions are considered unquestionable????

Just a heads up that one of the FA's have responded in a thread at ukclimbing. I could'nt find a way to link directly to the post, so go to this thread: http://www.ukc2.com/...php?t=340148&v=1 and search for "Boris Cujic".

You are totally off pace with Madd... Slow down, re read, re think. re post!

Climbing is not a Group Hug. Don't ever forget that. There are many of us who would still be climbers if all the gyms and prana pants and instructors and rules and stainless steel bolts disappeared over night. This notion that all routes must be equipped for the lowest common denominator is bloody stupid.

DMT