|
angry
Mar 22, 2009, 7:19 PM
Post #76 of 141
(7207 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 8405
|
There's 4 people on the last page with a angry inspired sig.
FTW!
|
|
|
|
|
roy_hinkley_jr
Mar 22, 2009, 8:26 PM
Post #77 of 141
(7196 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 8, 2005
Posts: 652
|
angry wrote: So you think you aren't climbing unless you do it the hard way?
No, cams are great. But mastery of "the hard way" makes you better at the easy way. Climbers who can't figure out hexes and tri-cams aren't capable of evaluating less than optimal cam placements either.
|
|
|
|
|
angry
Mar 22, 2009, 8:32 PM
Post #78 of 141
(7195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 8405
|
roy_hinkley_jr wrote: angry wrote: So you think you aren't climbing unless you do it the hard way? No, cams are great. But mastery of "the hard way" makes you better at the easy way. Climbers who can't figure out hexes and tri-cams aren't capable of evaluating less than optimal cam placements either.
I don't disagree that shitty gear is a good training tool. I started on it too.
I do disagree that shitty gear is good though.
See the difference?
|
|
|
|
|
bill413
Mar 22, 2009, 8:45 PM
Post #79 of 141
(7190 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 19, 2004
Posts: 5674
|
Well, I love cams. They are (generally) secure, versatile, and fast to place. However, there are places THEY JUST WON'T WORK. Tricams are superb (especially for Gunkies). Stoppers have their uses. Hexes have their uses. Sometimes each of these devices works far better than others.
I've seen a guy climb with only 1 full set of tricams on his rack. Climbed pretty strong stuff.
Most climbers I know take an assortment of gear on climbs, unless they know exactly what it will take.
|
|
|
|
|
roy_hinkley_jr
Mar 22, 2009, 9:33 PM
Post #80 of 141
(7180 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 8, 2005
Posts: 652
|
angry wrote: See the difference?
The only thing I see here is that you never really figured hexes out despite your claims otherwise. The gear ain't shitty, just the user ;-)
|
|
|
|
|
petsfed
Mar 22, 2009, 9:47 PM
Post #81 of 141
(7177 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 25, 2002
Posts: 8599
|
roy_hinkley_jr wrote: angry wrote: See the difference? The only thing I see here is that you never really figured hexes out despite your claims otherwise. The gear ain't shitty, just the user ;-)
Now that shit is hilarious right there.
|
|
|
|
|
rschap
Mar 22, 2009, 10:51 PM
Post #82 of 141
(7157 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Posts: 592
|
roy_hinkley_jr wrote: The only difference between those and BD are the color and the BD have a transverse taper on the end walls that makes them less useful.
I don't see how that makes them less useful. It makes it possible to place in an outward flaring crack which scary as hell yes but at least you can (I only did that on aid to be honest). I don’t see how this hinders it in anyway though. Not arguing just curious.
In reply to: Until you master hexes and tricam, you're still just a wannabe trad climber. Plugging cams and slotting stoppers is just a step above sport climbing
So should we go back to Hemp ropes and tying slings around different size rocks we find for protection. I use hexes and tri cams all the time but that’s my preference, people should climb with what they prefer. My boss tells me that they used to put 12” saw blades on 7” grinders all the time and cut metal with it, but I’ll be damned if I’m going to, they also used to build skyscrapers with out tying off too. Ok this one I am arguing.
(This post was edited by rschap on Mar 22, 2009, 10:52 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
a-e-jones
Mar 23, 2009, 1:18 PM
Post #83 of 141
(7119 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 5, 2008
Posts: 295
|
well we've sorted half the problem now to figure out a way to fix girth issues and we'll all have pornstar dicks
|
|
|
|
|
cracklover
Mar 23, 2009, 7:05 PM
Post #84 of 141
(7098 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10162
|
vegastradguy wrote: cracklover wrote: I've only climbed with vegastradguy once or twice (fun guy, good climber!) but both times, he saw me place lots of hexes, in great placements, quickly and efficiently. And yet he still says that they're useless. So either he doesn't trust his own eyes, or he's forgotten that lesson. My guess is that what he really means is that he himself doesn't know how to use them, and he's generalizing based on that fact. i love how not one person in this thread actually read my entire post...i keep getting bashed for not liking hexes. note the word...'today's' in my post. i dont like today's hexes. can i use them? absolutely. do i like them? no. not at all.
Yes, I read your whole post, and I'm pretty sure I understood it, too! So you like chouinard hexes? Bully for you! You obviously don't like them well enough to carry them. But that's irrelevant to the point (which is why I didn't mention it in my earlier post). The point is your claim that modern hexes don't work for shit.
In reply to: i quickly discovered that just about all of today's hexes are, for the most part, useless in most protection scenarios today. tried 'em all...they all sucked.
You are, of course, welcome to your opinion. In fact, you share it with a large percentage of climbers. Some damn good climbers, too, so you're in good company!
Doesn't change the fact that not only do I disagree with you, but you also disagree with you!
In reply to: i did notice gabe using hexes alot- as efficiently and well as could be asked for, i might add, but they were all but unnecessary- cams protect it just fine and, i would argue, faster.
So now you admit that modern hexes do work well. Instead, you've changed your argument to say that cams would have been good enough. And maybe faster. I respectfully disagree on both counts.
When I place hexes, I typically place them where cams would be inferior. And I typically place them quickly. The same sized cam placed in the hex placement would take much more fiddling time to make it usable. That's right - more time to place the cam, not less. If you're arguing that it would be better to just skip those placements in favor of spots that take good cams quickly - I think that's a poor argument. That may be fine if you're on easy ground, or doing climbs that favor cams. But if you're close to your limit, where running it out is not a great option, and a hex goes in well when a cam does not, then I want a hex on my rack!
I did a whole pitch in Red Rocks (at 5.10) where cam placements were pretty horrible, and only nuts fit well. I didn't fall on that pitch, but it was close enough to my limit that I could have. Had I been a cam-only climber I would have been pretty hosed.
In reply to: i would still argue that, in general, hexes are not necessary for the vast majority of climbers and that the vast majority of climbers will abandon them shortly after starting. there are very few 5.10 trad leaders (gabe is probably among them) that regularly use hexes at that grade. at 5.11, i bet that number shrinks further.
I'm not arguing number of climbers. Beyond a shadow of a doubt, most people who carry and place hexes are gumbies or noobs. I am neither. When I place a hex, it's because it's the best piece at the time, and the time requires that I place the best piece.
For example, when we last climbed together, if I recall correctly, there was a hex placement at the beginning of one of the pitches, where nothing else would go, and it was a very awkward traverse-y kind of move. You may have bigger balls than I - I'd rather have good gear than potentially fall directly on the belay!
Do I always bring them or use them much on harder 10s and 11s? No. They have their place. And I'll freely admit that sometimes their place is the gear closet. But I've also been on many more climbs where I've left the hexes on the ground, and been sorry I didn't have them, than I have been sorry I brought them when I didn't want them.
In reply to: i also climbed on gabe's rack on that route and placed hexes myself quickly and efficiently- and yes, i do know how to use them- i've done almost all of RR's famous trade routes 5.8 and under on passive only.
Yeah, but haven't you've also done lots of moderates placing next to no gear? If you place three pieces on a pitch, and they're all nuts, all it means is that you're solid on the route, and have balls. It doesn't say anything about your gear placements. But whatever - if you say you're efficient at placing good hexes, but still prefer not to, I'm happy to take you at your word.
In reply to: Anyway, at the end of the day, its your rack and your life- do what you feel comfortable doing and you'll be just fine. we might poke fun, but at the end of the day, if thats what makes you feel good and safe- then more power to you.
Agreed, 100%
By the way, I would have responded earlier, but I just spent three days climbing at the Creek. Of course I brought almost 70 cams, and no hexes! :)
GO
|
|
|
|
|
vegastradguy
Mar 23, 2009, 10:46 PM
Post #85 of 141
(7078 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 28, 2002
Posts: 5919
|
cracklover wrote: The point is your claim that modern hexes don't work for shit. In reply to: i quickly discovered that just about all of today's hexes are, for the most part, useless in most protection scenarios today. tried 'em all...they all sucked. You are, of course, welcome to your opinion. In fact, you share it with a large percentage of climbers. Some damn good climbers, too, so you're in good company! Doesn't change the fact that not only do I disagree with you, but you also disagree with you! In reply to: i did notice gabe using hexes alot- as efficiently and well as could be asked for, i might add, but they were all but unnecessary- cams protect it just fine and, i would argue, faster. So now you admit that modern hexes do work well. Instead, you've changed your argument to say that cams would have been good enough. And maybe faster. I respectfully disagree on both counts.
ah, i didnt say they didnt work- they work. i said they were for the most part useless- as in, they serve no real use on most climbs as cams are more versatile and protect just as well and usually faster, i was speaking not in terms of functionality, but more in terms of actual need/use. obviously, i consider this statement subjective both in terms of the individual climber and, of course, the area in question. i have no qualms admitting that my climbing areas (RR, Yosemite, etc) dont necessarily protect the same as other areas like the Gunks.
but, to each their own....
In reply to: In reply to: i also climbed on gabe's rack on that route and placed hexes myself quickly and efficiently- and yes, i do know how to use them- i've done almost all of RR's famous trade routes 5.8 and under on passive only. Yeah, but haven't you've also done lots of moderates placing next to no gear? If you place three pieces on a pitch, and they're all nuts, all it means is that you're solid on the route, and have balls. It doesn't say anything about your gear placements. But whatever - if you say you're efficient at placing good hexes, but still prefer not to, I'm happy to take you at your word.
actually, when i did all those passive ascents, they were years ago when 5.8 was much closer to my limit, so i definitely protected as i would a normal pitch at the time- 10-12 pieces per pitch, usually.
(i will admit that these days, if its a route i've done before and its 5.8 or easier, i'm usually running it way out....but thats neither here nor there...)
glad you had fun at the creek, but shame on you for not sacking up like Earl Wiggins did on supercrack! 
|
|
|
|
|
notapplicable
Mar 23, 2009, 11:14 PM
Post #86 of 141
(7071 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 31, 2006
Posts: 17771
|
4 pages?
Damn, who would have thought hexes were so controversial a topic.
|
|
|
|
|
billcoe_
Mar 25, 2009, 5:28 PM
Post #87 of 141
(7008 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 30, 2002
Posts: 4694
|
angry wrote: Psst, he's wrong
How so?
|
|
|
|
|
angry
Mar 26, 2009, 5:20 AM
Post #88 of 141
(6980 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 8405
|
billcoe_ wrote: angry wrote: Psst, he's wrong How so?
Well, the comment about them being light was right. All the other stuff isn't. Petsfed explained most of this a page ago.
|
|
|
|
|
angry
Mar 26, 2009, 5:25 AM
Post #89 of 141
(6978 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 8405
|
roy_hinkley_jr wrote: angry wrote: See the difference? The only thing I see here is that you never really figured hexes out despite your claims otherwise. The gear ain't shitty, just the user ;-)
2 things,
1. I'd happily lead all your projects on hexes. Wanna take odds as to whether you could lead what I'm climbing no matter the rack?
2. Welcome to my killfile, you're a waste. Bye.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Mar 26, 2009, 5:28 AM
Post #90 of 141
(6977 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
Three pages to answer the question: What is the best brand of an outdated piece of equipment that hardly differs between brands?
Jay
|
|
|
|
|
angry
Mar 26, 2009, 5:32 AM
Post #91 of 141
(6991 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 8405
|
jt512 wrote: Three pages to answer the question: What is the best brand of an outdated piece of equipment that hardly differs between brands? Jay
I said I need it to be IBM compatible!!
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Mar 26, 2009, 5:34 AM
Post #92 of 141
(6989 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
roy_hinkley_jr wrote: angry wrote: So you think you aren't climbing unless you do it the hard way? No, cams are great. But mastery of "the hard way" makes you better at the easy way. Climbers who can't figure out hexes and tri-cams aren't capable of evaluating less than optimal cam placements either.
Bullshit. I used hexes for all of about the first 3 months of my climbing career, over 20 years ago—just as long as it took me to afford a second set of cams. I have not carried a single hex since. And somehow it's everybody else's cams that walk or fail. Not mine.
Jay
|
|
|
|
|
drytooler
Mar 26, 2009, 10:33 AM
Post #93 of 141
(6976 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 31, 2005
Posts: 63
|
hey the only thing hexes are good fore is in hard mixed where nothing else works because of ice cracks/turf. So get a hex and bang it in whit your ice axe. hell yeah
for normal trad they suck
|
|
|
|
|
bill413
Mar 26, 2009, 11:35 AM
Post #94 of 141
(6971 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 19, 2004
Posts: 5674
|
jt512 wrote: ...over 20 years ago—just as long as it took me to afford a second set of cams.... And somehow it's everybody else's cams that walk or fail. Not mine.
That's because you got all the good ones. 
|
|
|
|
|
roy_hinkley_jr
Mar 26, 2009, 3:28 PM
Post #95 of 141
(6943 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 8, 2005
Posts: 652
|
jt512 wrote: Three pages to answer the question: What is the best brand of an outdated piece of equipment that hardly differs between brands?
So you haven't carried a hex in 20 years yet still assert there is no real difference between brands. Mighty omniscient of you.
In reality, hexes are only outdated for closed minds and sport climbers. They still have a place, particularly in the alpine world, and are better at teaching than cams. And some of the newer hexes are a lot better than old BD/Chouinard designs.
|
|
|
|
|
cracklover
Mar 26, 2009, 3:39 PM
Post #96 of 141
(6940 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10162
|
angry wrote: caleb_danner wrote: billcoe_ wrote: It's true that cams are generally easier to place, but there are times where falling on a hex is much safer. (camming a loose flake or block as an example, or where a classic bottleneck fits a hex but the flare in the back would cause a cam to walk with the slightest nudge. thanks that is what I thought Psst, he's wrong
Actually, I think the paragraph of Bill's quoted above is right on the money. I'd also add that in general in broken rock, the hex is typically a better bet.
GO
|
|
|
|
|
billcoe_
Mar 26, 2009, 5:33 PM
Post #97 of 141
(6926 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 30, 2002
Posts: 4694
|
My view of your intelligence rises with each new post Cracklover.
Jay has a pic of a bolted granite crack he likes to post. Although he's never explained it that I've seen, it probably got bolted so that the massive force of a cam being fallen on doesn't wedge it off the rock. I just encountered it's younger Basaltic brother the other day at an area full of broken rock, some of which won't or can't be trundled off with a pry bar, but has some great cracks behind these huge blocks which looks loose. I'm reasonably certain that the force from a 200 lb climber onto a hex would not cause this particular massive near loose block to pry off the wall. The bottleneck in the crack right below the crux is a perfect #7 or 8 hex placement. The forces from a cam are huge, and I have no assurance that a fall would not crate enough force to pull the whole thing off. Of course, Angry wouldn't fall on it, but others might, and the comparison remains.
Often on real long mixed climbs as well, you get great hex placements behind blocks as well. Why carry the extra weight of a cam when a hex will do a better job (less force on the rock in the event of a fall) for less weight ?
Ha ha, so lick my crack on that one Angry! I suspect that what you are discussing is pure rockclimbs. Not a real long mountain low class 5 with icy blocks of granite next to a steeper than shit snowfield climb.
My point is hexs have a place. In fact, doesn't Larry Hamilton still pretty much use them exclusively in Red Rocks to this day? He's FAing 2000 foot buttresses on new territory ground up. Works for him still. Like this guy here:
Whatever you (or any of us) choose to use, get good at it, study, practice and learn the craft. Frankly, for me, I use cams (small ones at that) 90 percent of the time, and usually do not carry hexes.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Mar 26, 2009, 6:11 PM
Post #98 of 141
(6914 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
roy_hinkley_jr wrote: jt512 wrote: Three pages to answer the question: What is the best brand of an outdated piece of equipment that hardly differs between brands? So you haven't carried a hex in 20 years yet still assert there is no real difference between brands. Mighty omniscient of you. In reality, hexes are only outdated for closed minds and sport climbers.
And people who trad climb harder than 5.8.
In reply to: They still have a place, particularly in the alpine world...
No kidding.
In reply to: ...and are better at teaching than cams.
Bullshit. No matter how many times you repeat this unsupported and unsupportable statement, it will still be silly.
Jay
|
|
|
|
|
roy_hinkley_jr
Mar 26, 2009, 6:46 PM
Post #99 of 141
(6906 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 8, 2005
Posts: 652
|
jt512 wrote: In reply to: ...and are better at teaching than cams. Bullshit. No matter how many times you repeat this unsupported and unsupportable statement, it will still be silly.
Your denial is amusing. Using hexes and tricams teach climbers to look at cracks more effectively; really no debating that point. Acquiring an eye for tricky placements is a learned talent. And it certainly comes in handy once you get away from nice cam-friendly crack areas. It's silly how you and Angry attempt to deride others just because they want to be smarter climbers.
|
|
|
|
|
angry
Mar 26, 2009, 7:17 PM
Post #100 of 141
(6900 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 8405
|
What's funny is that the people who are disagreeing with us are actually only disagreeing with how we're saying it.
"Cams are the better piece most of the time, especially on hard routes. Hexes just aren't versatile enough to really have much use in modern routes"
followed by
"You just don't know how to use them, on long alpine routes (read <5.8 and far from modern) I use mine all the time. I use cams 90% of the time but hexes are awesome"
Did either statement really say anything different? Basically it's boiled down to this, "Are hexes 90% useless or 10% useful?"
It's a snow day and I'm sick, so I'll run with it.
Also Bill, stop taking falls on loose blocks. Active or passive pieces multiply the forces unless it's in a pure T-shaped placement (you still have the weight of the falling climber though). It's a fallacy to place bad gear under the delusion that it will slow you down. You end up a little more fatigued, fall just as far, and send a dangerous block toward your belayer. Buck up and climb past it and stop pretending it's safe.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
