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altelis
Apr 1, 2009, 9:41 PM
Post #26 of 51
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Rudmin wrote: Does anyone call "clipping" to get their belayer ready to feed slack?
no. absolutely not. 9 times out of 100 its unnecessary at best. 1 time out of 100 it could prove dangerous.
When climbing the ability to hear your partner can be severely impeded. Why add unnecessary commands to the system? Your just asking for trouble. This doesn't have to be mutlipitch climbing either- I've freaking toproped at enough places that were by rivers/streams and harder than hell to hear your partner when they were only 40 feet away with clear line of sight between us.
While I most certainly don't always watch my climber that doesn't mean i'm not paying attention. You would be hard pressed to find a partner of mine complain about getting short-roped. Sure- its happened. That is, I would argue, unavoidable over the long run.
But if you are out of sight and its noisy, "clipping" and "tension" aren't that far apart.
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ladyscarlett
Apr 1, 2009, 9:48 PM
Post #27 of 51
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Factor2 wrote: altelis wrote: To all you people who are requiring their belayers to always always always keep an eye on them while leading, I have a suggestion. Stay. Away. From. Multipitch. or long single pitch climbs. Or climbs with a large roof. Or climbs that go around the corner, etc etc
I think you're suggesting for people to stay off all the fun ones so you can keep them for yourselves! Though I still say multipitch is Special.
But from a newbie perspective coming up on my second outdoor season, I would say the best thing is to Be Aware, and be capable of responding appropriately.
Among some pairs, hearing the leader swearing means catch an imminent fall, for some, it means putting down the sandwich, and others to toss up a beer and yell up "stop being a wimp! You're at the fun part!"
You know your leader, he/she/it knows you, you know how to respond to each other to keep each other safe with the gear you've chosen to use. If you don't, maybe it's time...
my 2p, Safety third!
ls
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patmay81
Apr 1, 2009, 9:53 PM
Post #28 of 51
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Factor2 wrote: altelis wrote: To all you people who are requiring their belayers to always always always keep an eye on them while leading, I have a suggestion. Stay. Away. From. Multipitch. or long single pitch climbs. Or climbs with a large roof. Or climbs that go around the corner, etc etc
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bill413
Apr 1, 2009, 10:17 PM
Post #29 of 51
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You should try just belaying from the top a few times - instead of always doing a social belay. You'll quickly discover both that you can't always see your climber, and that you are able to develop a feel for them through the rope.
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sspssp
Apr 2, 2009, 12:18 AM
Post #30 of 51
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kachoong wrote: sspssp wrote: Another tidbit, I've trained myself to yell falling when I start to fall. I try not to shriek it when in the gym, but no reason not to give your belayer a heads up. Especially when you slip without warning (as opposed to peel off while obviously fighting through a crux). A climber shouldn't need to yell falling if the belayer is belaying properly. Besides (and I think this was covered recently), if you're climbing and need to yell falling, you're not climbing hard enough (or close enough to your limit). It's a cop out.
I agree 100% that a climber should never need to yell falling in order to be caught. And you should never need your partner to double check your knot because you should have tied it correctly the first time, 100% of the time. And you should never need to double check the anchor that your partner set up because he should have set it up correctly 100% of the time the first time.
I've read enough Accidents in North American Mountaineering to know that even experienced climbers overlook things and some safety redundancy is a good idea.
I've seen enough leaders fall farther than they should, that I think that yelling falling is a worthwhile safety redundancy. And the OP sounded like he spent more time worrying about his belayer than he did on the climb, so it was partly a suggestion about how he could reduce his worry...
But each to their own. I think that wearing a helmet is a really good idea also, but I try to avoid antagonizing those that don't.
As far as paying attention: it may have been a distraction at first, but I don't think it is now. If I am caught up in a hard sequence and I dislodge a rock or drop a biner, I yell rock out of habbit.
Up until I actually start falling, I'm no more thinking about yelling falling than I am thinking about yelling rock. And I'm not worrying about my belayer either.
(This post was edited by sspssp on Apr 2, 2009, 12:20 AM)
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Rudmin
Apr 2, 2009, 12:25 AM
Post #31 of 51
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I once called falling as I slipped coming over a roof, but I managed to grab a crimp and stick it. Then my belayer hauled me off 
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rgold
Apr 2, 2009, 12:55 AM
Post #32 of 51
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First of all, at least in trad climbing, it isn't always possible to see the leader. Second of all, if you are using half rope technique (I realize this is not the norm), then it is usually better to look at the ropes in front of you and not at the leader. You often won't know which one to take in and which one to pay out if you are watching the leader, and it turns out that if you are watching the ropes in front of you, you can respond to the need for clipping slack almost as well as if you were watching the leader and manage the other slack requirements better.
Watching the rope in front of you may actually be a safer practice even with a single rope. It seems to be more and more common for belayers to leave substantial amounts of slack in the belay, a practice that may be ok on overhanging bolt-protected routes but which is a bad idea for many trad climbs, where there may be a very severe penalty for falling further than is absolutely necessary, and where the increased load on the anchors (for falls with fall factor less than 1---the majority) will not be welcome.
Watching the rope in front of you enables you to leave very little slack and still respond quickly to the need for clipping slack. Watching the leader typically requires you to leave more slack in the belay line, resulting in leader falls that surprise both leader and belayer with their length.
I do think it is generally a good idea for leaders to wake up their belayers with calls of "watch me" when communication is possible and the leader anticipates difficulty ahead.
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jsj7051
Apr 2, 2009, 1:10 AM
Post #33 of 51
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brownie710 wrote: more often than not I can't see the leader or my belayer cannot see me on multi-pitch. You can sense through the tension and movement of the rope when to give slack, when to take some in after they haul in a bunch to clip gear,etc. This does require "constant focus" but constant visual is not always possible in real world situations.
I find it interesting that it took 11 post befor this was mentioned.
This is the guy I want belaying me .
His reply showes he takes everything into consideration , focus on full at all times.
Also he would be one of my top picks to have in any life or death situation.
Brownie710 , my hats off to you and PM me when your in NC and want to climb.
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robdotcalm
Apr 2, 2009, 2:36 AM
Post #34 of 51
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“If it can happen, it will happen, which is a variation on feces occurs.”
The unexpected can happen when you are belaying, and while you must always be prepared to catch a fall, it may not always be possible to give the leader your undivided attention. Be prepared to innovate as necessary.
You’re belaying on a windy day. Your partner is out about 75 ft. on the long first pitch, out-of-sight, out-of-hearing and moving slowly. You suddenly have an intense urge to defecate. As the rope inches forward slowly, you realize you won’t be able to hold it in for the time it will take him to go off belay. What do you do?
When I found myself in this situation, it was in a remote area with no one else around. I moved over to a nearby tree, leaned my head against it for stability and lowered my harness and pants, but all the time keeping the leader on belay. After discharge, I belayed him for the rest of the route with pants and harness lowered. Fortunately, I carry Wet Ones and T-paper in a large pocket in my chalk bag. To this day I haven’t told the leader about the “crappy” belay he received.
Cheers,
Rob.calm
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bill413
Apr 2, 2009, 2:46 AM
Post #35 of 51
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Rob - not sure what's worse - being in that situation, or being out on lead with that same feeling. 
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jsj7051
Apr 2, 2009, 3:07 AM
Post #36 of 51
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robdotcalm wrote: “If it can happen, it will happen, which is a variation on feces occurs.” The unexpected can happen when you are belaying, and while you must always be prepared to catch a fall, it may not always be possible to give the leader your undivided attention. Be prepared to innovate as necessary. You’re belaying on a windy day. Your partner is out about 75 ft. on the long first pitch, out-of-sight, out-of-hearing and moving slowly. You suddenly have an intense urge to defecate. As the rope inches forward slowly, you realize you won’t be able to hold it in for the time it will take him to go off belay. What do you do? When I found myself in this situation, it was in a remote area with no one else around. I moved over to a nearby tree, leaned my head against it for stability and lowered my harness and pants, but all the time keeping the leader on belay. After discharge, I belayed him for the rest of the route with pants and harness lowered. Fortunately, I carry Wet Ones and T-paper in a large pocket in my chalk bag. To this day I haven’t told the leader about the “crappy” belay he received. Cheers, Rob.calm
Hell , I'd take you along too!
Just need to feed you a PBJ samwich first.
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brownie710
Apr 2, 2009, 2:21 PM
Post #37 of 51
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jsj7051, right back at you and the offer is the same if your ever in the adk's!
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granite_grrl
Apr 2, 2009, 4:38 PM
Post #38 of 51
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I find trad climbing makes for an easy belay. They stand for a while, place a piece, extend the sling, pulling up very little rope to clip. No, I don't watch the climber on a trad lead because I need to know what to do with the rope, I can feel that. I keep an eye on them to see how they're feeling, see if they're struggling, to prepare myself.
I spend a lot more time watching my partner when sport climbing, but they normally tear up the line so fast that it doesn't kill my neck. If they get to a rest ledge I tell them to let me know when they're climbing again so I start watching them again. It's not bad to tell when someone is getting ready to make a clip. Unless they're clipping from an enexpected stance there's really no need for them to yell "cliping".
Really, it's more about watching the movements of the climber and anticipating what they might do next. You don't need constant focus to do that.
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majid_sabet
Apr 2, 2009, 4:50 PM
Post #39 of 51
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I do not pay attention to what my parters do up there. I just have learned how to read rope movement and how to react when things go out of line. With this method, I careless what he/she does up there(in or out of sight).
it works every time for me.
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dingus
Apr 2, 2009, 4:50 PM
Post #40 of 51
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granite_grrl wrote: I find trad climbing makes for an easy belay. They stand for a while, place a piece, extend the sling, pulling up very little rope to clip. No, I don't watch the climber on a trad lead because I need to know what to do with the rope, I can feel that. I keep an eye on them to see how they're feeling, see if they're struggling, to prepare myself. I spend a lot more time watching my partner when sport climbing, but they normally tear up the line so fast that it doesn't kill my neck. If they get to a rest ledge I tell them to let me know when they're climbing again so I start watching them again. It's not bad to tell when someone is getting ready to make a clip. Unless they're clipping from an enexpected stance there's really no need for them to yell "cliping". Really, it's more about watching the movements of the climber and anticipating what they might do next. You don't need constant focus to do that.
Your post nicely encapsulates a constant challenge here on rc.com - we tend to conflate the belay requirements of sport and trad in these discussions and as you nicely point out - the belay requirements are markedly different at times.
DMT
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patmay81
Apr 2, 2009, 8:40 PM
Post #42 of 51
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kimmyt wrote: bill413 wrote: Rob - not sure what's worse - being in that situation, or being out on lead with that same feeling. ...or being the next person on that belay ledge...
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yokese
Apr 2, 2009, 10:08 PM
Post #44 of 51
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altelis wrote: Rudmin wrote: Does anyone call "clipping" to get their belayer ready to feed slack? no. absolutely not. 9 times out of 100 its unnecessary at best. 1 time out of 100 it could prove dangerous.
What about the other 90 times?
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altelis
Apr 2, 2009, 10:17 PM
Post #45 of 51
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yokese wrote: altelis wrote: Rudmin wrote: Does anyone call "clipping" to get their belayer ready to feed slack? no. absolutely not. 9 times out of 100 its unnecessary at best. 1 time out of 100 it could prove dangerous. What about the other 90 times?
Doh!!!
I'll let you decide about that...use your imagination!!!!
That's what I get for doing "math"
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currupt4130
Apr 3, 2009, 1:44 AM
Post #46 of 51
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I tend to not watch too closely with my usual partner. I stay aware of what he's doing, but for the sake of my neck, once he's at least 15 or so feet out of the danger zone I keep a small roll of slack off my device and use that to judge what he's doing. It gives me a good indicator of whether he's making a big move, clipping, or just trolling along. I look up to see where he is, how's he doing, if he's shaking, w/e.
If he's all good I go back to whistling and focusing on what's at hand, the belay. If he's not doing so good, I keep an eye on him until he gets through whatever it is that's bothering him.
If it's someone new I tend to pay more attention to their actual climbing and spend more time looking up trying to follow them. I know my partner pretty well, we tend to have the same climbing habits and similar styles.
If he hears me cursing loudly, he knows to catch a fall. If I hear him even mutter a word I get worried. It's all personal, but no I don't constantly look up.
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Adk
Apr 3, 2009, 2:06 AM
Post #47 of 51
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Not me!! I'm always looking for a shiny penny.
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bill413
Apr 3, 2009, 2:15 AM
Post #48 of 51
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I like that corrupt approach.
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caliclimbergrl
Apr 3, 2009, 3:58 AM
Post #49 of 51
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I don't think I ever spend 100% of the time looking at my climber and I do often chat when belaying someone on TR. That doesn't mean I'm not paying attention. I can feel when they move up through the rope. Half of the time when climbing multi-pitch you can't see the climber for most of the climb anyway. Having your eyes on your climber is no guarantee of anything -- you can still get dropped by someone who has their eyes on you and I've caught many falls (on lead and TR) when I wasn't looking at the climber when they fell.
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jhb3999
Apr 8, 2009, 2:41 PM
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I would agree with you in sport and trad. If your TR'ing though, while still important, the concept of taking in and breaking is about the most important.
Sporting or trad deal in takes and slack, dynamic falls, clipping, etc. so intense focus on the climber is second to none. The most important thing is to climb with someone whose belay skills you trust.
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