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dingus
Apr 15, 2009, 3:20 PM
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It should take, um, say, for mortals in decent shape? An hour to jug to Sickle on fixed. Really fit people can do it much faster... I was slower.
Anyway, all those knots and grigri games - tain't gonna be running up those ropes. Turn a 1 hour jug into 2 or more?
Fixed ropes are MORE than a stylistic trade off. FIXED ROPES HAVE INHERENT DANGERS.
The ropes can get cut by rockfall. All sorts of shit can happen. And ascending fixed ropes is DANGEROUS BUSINESS.
While I understand and have personally felt the need for such a backup (so I wouldn't wet my pants) I had to learn to suck it up and get up those ropes.
Many-a-rope commute since that Sickle Ledge jug way back... no backup.
Though taking along a mini-trax as an emergency backup pully and then using it as a 3rd device on the rope my give some piece of mind without all that gut string bullshit you have to do with a grigri.
DMT
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xtrmecat
Apr 15, 2009, 4:24 PM
Post #27 of 52
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I respect Russ, and his methods. I also respect the opinion of Dingus. That said, fixed ropes are inherently dangerous, and managing the risks as efficiently and simply as possible is key in my opinion. Here is the but.
Trusting these two little charms, my new ones by the way, is just more than I can do. The buckles do not slip while in use, but they are capable of it, and even came completely partially unthreaded one evening at a bivy. They work by allowing two over 90 degree flat plates to partially shear against one another pinching the webbing to grip, by the way. The point is I am willing to take the extra five minutes(tops) to pass the three knotts and three anchors on the trip to sickle.
To whoever said it is common practice to forego the anchors between the ground and sickle, that has not been the practice I've witnessed, or done personally, as the intermediate anchors were key to rope management in the wind (keep it out of the cracks, flakes, and wearing bad while down).
I still use a prussik above the top ascender, and even though I may be labeled a chickenshit, am here still, to write about my opinion. Just not willing to shave off that little safety corner.
Bob
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dingus
Apr 15, 2009, 6:00 PM
Post #29 of 52
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Bob if you don't trust your aiders or daisies why not get something that is not designed to slip?
In terms of Sickle jugging - in season it is a CLUSTER FUCK. And yes, almost everyone uses the rap station bolts for each rope. I know we and about 4 other parties all did that (at the same time).
But some still do the entire thing as one go.
DMT
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KurtBurt
Apr 16, 2009, 9:21 PM
Post #31 of 52
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Just use the gri-gri. You don't have to F with all that rope while cleaning, if your on a fixed line (and can't tie in) its right there and makes moving over a knot or around anchors easy and safe. JMO
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potreroed
Apr 17, 2009, 5:04 AM
Post #32 of 52
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KurtBurt wrote: Just use the gri-gri. You don't have to F with all that rope while cleaning, if your on a fixed line (and can't tie in) its right there and makes moving over a knot or around anchors easy and safe. JMO
What???
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KurtBurt
Apr 20, 2009, 9:02 PM
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if you don't tie in every 20-40 ft like we have all been taught to but instead just stay tied into the end and slap your gri gri on the rope as your back up you don't have to deal with the 5-10+ knots and loops of rope at your harness, plus the gri gri makes it quick to lower out when you need to, if you need to rap its right there, but this is just my experience, everybody is different. and for fixed ropes there is no way to tie in to back up your jumars. so if you are scared they are going to pop off of when you have to unclip them while moving around a knot or anchor on long jugs the gri gri always keeps you on belay while you are moving around these obstacles.
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charlie.elverson
Sep 2, 2009, 5:44 AM
Post #34 of 52
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Adding the gri gri seems like a pretty good idea, but would you ever just put a prussik above the jugs and let them push it up as you go? Would that even work or would the prussik just get entangled in the jugs?
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bennydh
Sep 2, 2009, 8:00 AM
Post #35 of 52
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majid_sabet wrote: [IMG]http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/918/screenhunter01apr131139.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/4540/screenhunter02apr131140.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/2417/screenhunter03apr131142.jpg[/IMG]
Use your words Majid, use your words.
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majid_sabet
Sep 2, 2009, 4:36 PM
Post #37 of 52
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USnavy wrote: charlie.elverson wrote: Adding the gri gri seems like a pretty good idea, but would you ever just put a prussik above the jugs and let them push it up as you go? Would that even work or would the prussik just get entangled in the jugs? There is a rather easy method of ascending with a GriGri that can be done on one rope or two (two if the top anchor allows the rope to move through). This method uses a Cinch or GriGri with one ascender, a sling or PAS as a backup, a foot strap and a Mini-Traction. [img]http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/2013/31481863.png[/img] Basically you step on the foot strap and pull down on the free end of the rope simultaneously to feel slack in. Then you push the ascender back up and repeat. Its redundancy comes from the ascender if the GriGri were to slip. You can use a pulley instead of the Mini-Traxion but I use the Traxion as it provides even more redundancy for the locking cam generally engages if the rope starts to slip through too fast. If you decide you want to rap the fixed line, all you need to do is disconnect the ascender and you’re ready to go. Edit: Yes I know backup is a compound word.
So what is system made of ? is it, ascender, mini-traxion, Gri Gri or pulley?
I hope you never become an instructor cause there will a triage of dead climbers rolling out of your class.
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wanderlustmd
Sep 3, 2009, 2:26 AM
Post #38 of 52
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shimanilami wrote: sspssp wrote: Safety is a matter of tradeoffs and personal opinion. Is any climbing/jugging safe? But as a suggestion as to what I would do, I would connect my grigri below the jugs and call it good to go. Bingo. This is the Better Way.
Yeah, I used to do the knot thing, but saw this method in the valley last year and had a "doh!" moment. It also makes lowering out pretty slick.
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wanderlustmd
Sep 3, 2009, 2:30 AM
Post #39 of 52
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shimanilami wrote: I like the grigri approach especially for cleaning traverses. You can pull tight with the grigri, then move both jugs above the last piece, then weight the jugs by releasing the grigri, and then clean the piece. (Sorry for the thread drift. We were talking about jugging fixed lines ...)
That's what I get for skimming...
Fixed lines are just jugs, no backup.
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USnavy
Sep 3, 2009, 6:21 AM
Post #40 of 52
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majid_sabet wrote: USnavy wrote: charlie.elverson wrote: Adding the gri gri seems like a pretty good idea, but would you ever just put a prussik above the jugs and let them push it up as you go? Would that even work or would the prussik just get entangled in the jugs? There is a rather easy method of ascending with a GriGri that can be done on one rope or two (two if the top anchor allows the rope to move through). This method uses a Cinch or GriGri with one ascender, a sling or PAS as a backup, a foot strap and a Mini-Traction. [img]http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/2013/31481863.png[/img] Basically you step on the foot strap and pull down on the free end of the rope simultaneously to feel slack in. Then you push the ascender back up and repeat. Its redundancy comes from the ascender if the GriGri were to slip. You can use a pulley instead of the Mini-Traxion but I use the Traxion as it provides even more redundancy for the locking cam generally engages if the rope starts to slip through too fast. If you decide you want to rap the fixed line, all you need to do is disconnect the ascender and you’re ready to go. Edit: Yes I know backup is a compound word. So what is system made of ? is it, ascender, mini-traxion, Gri Gri or pulley? I hope you never become an instructor cause there will a triage of dead climbers rolling out of your class.
Try taking a whipper on an ascender and see what happens... Take the same on a GriGri and you may live to tell about it. An ascender will strip a 10.5 mm rope with about 4 kN and cut it in half with about 5.5 kN. A GriGri won’t even slip at 4 kN... This method was taught to me by multiple expert climbers that jugg more feet of rope in a month then you have in your lifetime...
You weight the GriGri well jugging and use the ascender as a backup and to pull down on. Look this method up. It’s not something I created myself…
(This post was edited by USnavy on Sep 3, 2009, 6:33 AM)
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majid_sabet
Sep 3, 2009, 6:58 AM
Post #41 of 52
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USnavy wrote: majid_sabet wrote: USnavy wrote: charlie.elverson wrote: Adding the gri gri seems like a pretty good idea, but would you ever just put a prussik above the jugs and let them push it up as you go? Would that even work or would the prussik just get entangled in the jugs? There is a rather easy method of ascending with a GriGri that can be done on one rope or two (two if the top anchor allows the rope to move through). This method uses a Cinch or GriGri with one ascender, a sling or PAS as a backup, a foot strap and a Mini-Traction. [img]http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/2013/31481863.png[/img] Basically you step on the foot strap and pull down on the free end of the rope simultaneously to feel slack in. Then you push the ascender back up and repeat. Its redundancy comes from the ascender if the GriGri were to slip. You can use a pulley instead of the Mini-Traxion but I use the Traxion as it provides even more redundancy for the locking cam generally engages if the rope starts to slip through too fast. If you decide you want to rap the fixed line, all you need to do is disconnect the ascender and you’re ready to go. Edit: Yes I know backup is a compound word. So what is system made of ? is it, ascender, mini-traxion, Gri Gri or pulley? I hope you never become an instructor cause there will a triage of dead climbers rolling out of your class. Try taking a whipper on an ascender and see what happens... Take the same on a GriGri and you may live to tell about it. An ascender will strip a 10.5 mm rope with about 4 kN and cut it in half with about 5.5 kN. A GriGri won’t even slip at 4 kN... This method was taught to me by multiple expert climbers that jugg more feet of rope in a month then you have in your lifetime... You weight the GriGri well jugging and use the ascender as a backup and to pull down on. Look this method up. It’s not something I created myself…
Does this expert dude has a name?
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bennydh
Sep 3, 2009, 9:24 AM
Post #42 of 52
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majid_sabet wrote: USnavy wrote: majid_sabet wrote: USnavy wrote: charlie.elverson wrote: Adding the gri gri seems like a pretty good idea, but would you ever just put a prussik above the jugs and let them push it up as you go? Would that even work or would the prussik just get entangled in the jugs? There is a rather easy method of ascending with a GriGri that can be done on one rope or two (two if the top anchor allows the rope to move through). This method uses a Cinch or GriGri with one ascender, a sling or PAS as a backup, a foot strap and a Mini-Traction. [img]http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/2013/31481863.png[/img] Basically you step on the foot strap and pull down on the free end of the rope simultaneously to feel slack in. Then you push the ascender back up and repeat. Its redundancy comes from the ascender if the GriGri were to slip. You can use a pulley instead of the Mini-Traxion but I use the Traxion as it provides even more redundancy for the locking cam generally engages if the rope starts to slip through too fast. If you decide you want to rap the fixed line, all you need to do is disconnect the ascender and you’re ready to go. Edit: Yes I know backup is a compound word. So what is system made of ? is it, ascender, mini-traxion, Gri Gri or pulley? I hope you never become an instructor cause there will a triage of dead climbers rolling out of your class.Try taking a whipper on an ascender and see what happens... Take the same on a GriGri and you may live to tell about it. An ascender will strip a 10.5 mm rope with about 4 kN and cut it in half with about 5.5 kN. A GriGri won’t even slip at 4 kN... This method was taught to me by multiple expert climbers that jugg more feet of rope in a month then you have in your lifetime... You weight the GriGri well jugging and use the ascender as a backup and to pull down on. Look this method up. It’s not something I created myself… Does this expert dude has a name?
That bolden statement is ridiculous from someone who posts so much nonsensical shit. Don't you have some pretentious fucking plan b shelter clinic to go and teach? Stick to that and hope people don't end up dead, because you let them suffocate under a garbage bag. I mean they have to be dumb to be taking your little clinic to begin with right?
That climber dude "has" name btw. Pretty much everyone on this forum not named majidiot.
USnavy thanks for that shared sheath ripping info. Do you have any info on the WC Ropeman I or II, since it has no sharp ascender like teeth?
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tomtom
Sep 3, 2009, 5:49 PM
Post #43 of 52
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USnavy wrote: There is a rather easy method of ascending with a GriGri that can be done on one rope or two (two if the top anchor allows the rope to move through). This method uses a Cinch or GriGri with one ascender, a sling or PAS as a backup, a foot strap and a Mini-Traction. [img]http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/2013/31481863.png[/img] Basically you step on the foot strap and pull down on the free end of the rope simultaneously to feel slack in. Then you push the ascender back up and repeat. Its redundancy comes from the ascender if the GriGri were to slip. You can use a pulley instead of the Mini-Traxion but I use the Traxion as it provides even more redundancy for the locking cam generally engages if the rope starts to slip through too fast. If you decide you want to rap the fixed line, all you need to do is disconnect the ascender and you’re ready to go.
Hmm. This is a variation of the body hoist system but with a Mini Traxion in place of a pulley (or carabiner) hanging from the ascender.
What is the purpose of the mini-traxion? If the traxion is used as a rope grab, then how do you push the blue ascender up the rope while hanging on the Grigri?
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dingus
Sep 3, 2009, 6:14 PM
Post #44 of 52
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Mini trax IS a pully.
Carry on!
DMT
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tomtom
Sep 3, 2009, 9:04 PM
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dingus wrote: Mini trax IS a pully.
Well, duh. But it's can also be a rope grab. Explain this to me:
In reply to: You can use a pulley instead of the Mini-Traxion but I use the Traxion as it provides even more redundancy for the locking cam generally engages if the rope starts to slip through too fast.
How does the locking cam engage if it is only being used as a 'pully'?
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dingus
Sep 3, 2009, 9:35 PM
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tomtom wrote: dingus wrote: Mini trax IS a pully. Well, duh. But it's can also be a rope grab. Explain this to me: In reply to: You can use a pulley instead of the Mini-Traxion but I use the Traxion as it provides even more redundancy for the locking cam generally engages if the rope starts to slip through too fast. How does the locking cam engage if it is only being used as a 'pully'?
Oh good god....
DMT
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squishy654
Sep 3, 2009, 10:49 PM
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I just use a pulley, they cost way less...
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tomtom
Sep 3, 2009, 11:24 PM
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dingus wrote: Oh good god....
That explains everything.
Thanks!
(This post was edited by tomtom on Sep 3, 2009, 11:25 PM)
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socalclimber
Sep 3, 2009, 11:38 PM
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Wow, so much bullshit for something so simple.
I can definately tell you the safest way to jug a fixed line. DON'T. Stay at home.
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USnavy
Sep 4, 2009, 2:11 AM
Post #50 of 52
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tomtom wrote: USnavy wrote: There is a rather easy method of ascending with a GriGri that can be done on one rope or two (two if the top anchor allows the rope to move through). This method uses a Cinch or GriGri with one ascender, a sling or PAS as a backup, a foot strap and a Mini-Traction. [img]http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/2013/31481863.png[/img] Basically you step on the foot strap and pull down on the free end of the rope simultaneously to feel slack in. Then you push the ascender back up and repeat. Its redundancy comes from the ascender if the GriGri were to slip. You can use a pulley instead of the Mini-Traxion but I use the Traxion as it provides even more redundancy for the locking cam generally engages if the rope starts to slip through too fast. If you decide you want to rap the fixed line, all you need to do is disconnect the ascender and you’re ready to go. What is the purpose of the mini-traxion? If the traxion is used as a rope grab, then how do you push the blue ascender up the rope while hanging on the Grigri?
tomtom wrote: dingus wrote: Mini trax IS a pully. Well, duh. But it's can also be a rope grab. Explain this to me: In reply to: You can use a pulley instead of the Mini-Traxion but I use the Traxion as it provides even more redundancy for the locking cam generally engages if the rope starts to slip through too fast. How does the locking cam engage if it is only being used as a 'pully'?
The Mini-Traxon is used solely as a pulley in the above example. You can replace the Traxon with a standard pulley if you want. In normal operation the locking cam will always remain disengaged. However it is not hard to get the cam to engage for it takes very little pressure to snap the cam down on the rope. Accordingly if for some reason the GriGri started to slip, the huge increase in rope feed speed may catch the teeth of the Traxon. If this happens it will lock down and stop you instantly. However I do not use the Traxon as a backup. A sling connected from my harness to the ascender is the backup. You can think of the Traxon as a tertiary backup if for some reason your sling or the connecting biner fails. But in reality if you had to do a lot of ascending I wouldn’t use a Traxon for a pulley. It’s really easy to engage the cam on the Traxon and thus accordingly I often find the cam engaging inadvertently well jugging. In part, I use the Traxon because it’s the best pulley I have. My other pulleys suck and since I have a Traxon I don’t find much of a need to buy another pully.
(This post was edited by USnavy on Sep 4, 2009, 2:13 AM)
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