If you could not follow my examples showing how the OP failed to define "climber," then you are an idiot, even if you are mistaken.

Jay

In the context of motor learning and development over your lifetime, it's totally not bullshit. In fact, it's believed that there is a window, starting right after you're born, that is open for developing "full" skill potential, but which is believed to close sometime during late adolescence/early adulthood.

This doesn't imply no one can get better at something as an adult, it just means, depending on their physical activities in their early life, many adults will never be able to achieve their full genetic physical potential. No matter how much you practice later on in life and regardless of time, money, and motivation.

Does it count if a hold broke off a chossy 5.4? What if ate shit on some 4th class scree? Fuck me, I suck. 3rd class climber for life

let me make this clearer. 5.12. redpoint. sport. lead. outside.

in all seriousness, I think that a better definition of "5.12" climber would be able to onsight or quickly redpoint the grade consistently, in diverse disciplines and areas.

Do you get a 5.12 send no matter where you travel; the Gunks, Jtree, the Red, T-wall, Indian Creek, Squamish, Yosemite, Rumney, the Black Hills?

Then you are probably a 5.12 climber.

Though I still like my limited, earlier definition better.

Oh, and the "Jay" I'm referring to in my earlier post is JT512.

Jay - no comment? I hope I didn't shoot far from the mark in describing your notion of what 5.12 means? If so, please feel free to clarify.

Oh, and I have absolutely no idea what the answer is to the question.

It is an interesting question, to me, though. Jay states that 5.12- is, these days, kind of an everyman's grade in sport climbing. It's so far below the cutting edge that it's basically considered the entry point.

So if it's true (and it probably is) that less than 10% of the climbing population has accomplished a 5.12 RP, even once, then by modern sport-climbing standards, most folks who call themselves climbers really really suck.

Or, to flip it around, perhaps we should say that based on the raw numbers, Jay's criterion must actually be wrong, and these supposedly entry level folks are, in truth, fairly elite athletes.

Well, let's see. What you wrote was this:

The problem with using self-identification as a climber as the definition of "climber" is that we have no data on who these self-identifying climbers are. I can tell you who self-identifying vegetarians are because some dude did a study on it, but no one has done an analogous study on who self-identifying "climbers" are. If self-identifying climbers include people who climb four times a year or who have been climbing for only a few months, or people who primarily climb relatively non-technical alpine routes, or who claim to prefer "long, moderate trad," then the percentage of "climbers" who have redpointed 5.12a is surely quite low.

For whatever reason, most "climbers" don't ever try to redpoint 5.12a, but I think that the vast majority could if they tried. The physical skills necessary to do so are basically a certain level of climbing-specific fitness and a certain level of movement skill. I would say that anybody who has been sport climbing, say three times a week for at least one year would already have this level of fitness, or could develop it within a few months, so that part is easy. I would say that if you can climb 5.9 continuously for 20 minutes, consistently redpoint V3 within four-to-six attempts, and can complete a V0/V1 four-by-four, you have the fitness to redpoint 5.12a. If you go by people's profiles on this website, it would appear that practically every non-n00b boulders at least V4, yet oddly enough, few sport climb 5.12, and many only sport climb 5.10. It stands to reason that if they put the same effort into sport climbing as they do into bouldering that redpointing 5.12a (and higher) should not be difficult for them to achieve.

So why don't most "climbers" redpoint 5.12? Maybe we can list the reasons:

• They are beginners
  
• They are overweight
  
• They don't try
  
• They just boulder
  
• They specialize in alpine climbing or "long, moderate trad"
  
• They don't train
  
• They undervalue movement skills
  
• They undervalue climbing-specific fitness
  
• They overvalue general fitness

So, it comes back to "potential." I think if you took an average, active climber who wanted to redpoint 5.12a, and persuaded him to stop doing all the things he mistakenly thinks are helping his climbing (swimming, weight training, yoga, pilates, sit-ups and other non-specific "core" exercises, pull-ups, nutritional supplements, etc) and persuaded him to start doing useful training (route pyramids, movement exercises, ARCs, laps with timed rests, 4-by-4s, etc), that 80 to 90 percent of such climbers could redpoint 5.12a in a matter of months.

Jay

Jay, I've climbed with you and here is what I have to say.

First, you must have turned into a climbing machine in the last couple of years, you didn't climb that hard when you spent the weekend with me in Southern China.

Had this argument with some friends the other day. Considering all people who consider themselves climbers-everyone from gym rats to pros, what percent of climbers can climb 5.12?

EDIT: let me make this clearer. 5.12. redpoint. sport. lead. outside.

I started climbing in 1988 and have redpointed over (100) different 5.11 sport climbs spread out over the last ten years, (including both easy & hard ones) and around (20) 5.12s. Just this year, at age 54, I’ve embarked on a personal mission to become what I think of as a 5.12 sport climber.

The strategy I’ve adopted involves the following tactics: 1. Abstain from alcohol, 2. Work or redpoint a new-to-me 5.12 (outdoors) one weekend day per week in combination with 3-5 warm-ups and 3-5 warm-downs, 3. Gym train steep physical bouldering two days a week, 4. No bouldering rest week every forth week, 5. Goal of at least (10) 5.12’s this year- some harder ones included, 6. Play additional climbing games involving big mileage and long trad, 7. Watch diet, 8. Practice dogged persistence.

The main focus in this strategy is training for power by climbing a lot, and changing my attitude about what is easy and what is hard. This program requires a challenging commitment of my time and energy resources.

J
Now why, in a day and age when elite climbers regularly onsight 5.13, when sport 5.12 is, for those in that world, such a non-goal, would setting a lifetime goal of being able to onsight 5.12 sport, and setting your life around that, be worthwhile for climbers? Particularly since we're talking about climbers who already have goals that give them a great deal of satisfaction to accomplish.

Jay, I agree that a fairly high percentage (60%? 95%? not sure) of climbers could, if sufficiently motivated, redpoint 5.12. This is, incidentally, why a focus on "potential" is such a red herring, IMO. Potential is not the limiting factor. Desire is. Which is fine. Why should climbers spend every waking hour working towards redpointing 5.12?

I don't understand your question. You seem to be asking why someone who isn't interested in climbing 5.12 should be interested in it.

Jay

Additionally, "can" and "could" are not interchangeable words. The OP asked what percent of climbers can climb 5.12, by his definition of what constitutes climbing 5.12.

Curt

It's a rhetorical question. I'm pointing out that 1 - This is a grade that would take very serious dedication, work, and training for the vast majority of climbers.

And 2 - This is a grade that (if I understand you correctly) is considered no accomplishment of any particular merit in the sport climbing world.

But for most of us, climbing 5.12 sport as a goal unto itself would be a pretty lame goal.

Is that any more clear?

Additionally, "can" and "could" are not interchangeable words. The OP asked what percent of climbers can climb 5.12, by his definition of what constitutes climbing 5.12.

Curt