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crazy_fingers84
Nov 10, 2009, 3:37 AM
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havard wrote: When you feel confident about your skills placing gear, you may start pushing. However, when facing a difficult section where you might fall off, you must never ever forget to think things through. Is the gear good? Is the fall clean? Where is the next placement, and will the fall be clean all the way up to that placement? If the answer to any of these questions are no, then you are free soloing. If you can say yes to all of them, then I would go for it. But then again, I'm a crazy norwegian dude, and I'm probably going to die.
how does that constitute free soloing?
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altelis
Nov 10, 2009, 3:41 AM
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crazy_fingers84 wrote: havard wrote: When you feel confident about your skills placing gear, you may start pushing. However, when facing a difficult section where you might fall off, you must never ever forget to think things through. Is the gear good? Is the fall clean? Where is the next placement, and will the fall be clean all the way up to that placement? If the answer to any of these questions are no, then you are free soloing. If you can say yes to all of them, then I would go for it. But then again, I'm a crazy norwegian dude, and I'm probably going to die. how does that constitute free soloing?
And what does it mean if you can answer "where is the next placement?" with no
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camhead
Nov 10, 2009, 3:41 AM
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havard wrote: When you feel confident about your skills placing gear, you may start pushing. However, when facing a difficult section where you might fall off, you must never ever forget to think things through. Is the gear good? Is the fall clean? Where is the next placement, and will the fall be clean all the way up to that placement? If the answer to any of these questions are no, then you are free soloing. If you can say yes to all of them, then I would go for it. But then again, I'm a crazy norwegian dude, and I'm probably going to die.
It's because of attitudes like this that we need not fear a Viking invasion anytime soon.
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curt
Nov 10, 2009, 3:53 AM
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sungam wrote: angry wrote: You shouldn't fall on 5.6- to 5.8 anyway, you'll hurt yourself. When things get steeper and harder, assuming that the gear is good and you won't smack stuff on the way down, it is as safe as sport to fall. That said, hundreds of falls. None of them bad enough to do more than make me a little slow for a few days. The only fall I've had that hurt for more then a few days was this one time in Colorado, but that was on toprope, so I dunno if it counts here. Some people just can't use grigri's *sigh*
Heh. 
Curt
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bennydh
Nov 10, 2009, 4:41 AM
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healyje wrote: bennydh wrote: As far as that 99 out 100 emotional thingy, I'd disagree. I won't call it BS, but that certainly has not been my experience. Well, that is exactly what I'd expect most climbers to say - it's not an easy idea to digest and accept - but then, embracing that umpleasant truth might just set your climbing free...
Erring on the favorable side of your statement in percentages: At least 1 out of every 10 falls I take is due to a jam that unexpectedly pulls, usually on an off finger or cupped hand sized crack, or my foot cuts unexpectedly on routes where a crack turns into a balancy layback with smearing feet or tapered crack with a combination of face moves or thin edging, that is 10% not 1%(again erring on the favorable side of your ridiculous numerical assumption).
Just letting go because you aren't in an emotional state to focus on climbing not falling, that may be your problem; but like I said respectfully, it has not been my experience.
Now that I'm less inclined to be respectful, 99% is total bullshit, and projecting your ridiculous assumed numbers on an entire climbing community is stupid. Sack up or blow the sand out of it, and think about climbing not falling. It may not be easy to accept, but maybe your percentage will get better when you do accept it.
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dr_feelgood
Nov 10, 2009, 5:13 AM
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One that counts. And I was 'hiking'.
I've forgotten how many actual gear falls, but <25.
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healyje
Nov 10, 2009, 6:11 AM
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bennydh wrote: Now that I'm less inclined to be respectful, 99% is total bullshit, and projecting your ridiculous assumed numbers on an entire climbing community is stupid. Sack up or blow the sand out of it, and think about climbing not falling. It may not be easy to accept, but maybe your percentage will get better when you do accept it.
Except that you'll be lucky if you climb at your true physical limit even a half dozen times in a lifetime climbing career. Everything short of that, barring holds breaking - or I'll even grant you things slipping - you're jumping off, but your mind and ego require that you think you were climbing at your physical limit when it happened. Few climbers among us ever climb at their physical limit in conscience control of their body on any regular basis - the rest are just fooling themselves in a completely natural response to relinquishment.
(This post was edited by healyje on Nov 10, 2009, 6:18 AM)
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jt512
Nov 10, 2009, 6:58 AM
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healyje wrote: bennydh wrote: Now that I'm less inclined to be respectful, 99% is total bullshit, and projecting your ridiculous assumed numbers on an entire climbing community is stupid. Sack up or blow the sand out of it, and think about climbing not falling. It may not be easy to accept, but maybe your percentage will get better when you do accept it. Except that you'll be lucky if you climb at your true physical limit even a half dozen times in a lifetime climbing career. Everything short of that, barring holds breaking - or I'll even grant you things slipping - you're jumping off, but your mind and ego require that you think you were climbing at your physical limit when it happened. Few climbers among us ever climb at their physical limit in conscience control of their body on any regular basis - the rest are just fooling themselves in a completely natural response to relinquishment.
Nam-myoho-renge-kyo.
Jay
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bennydh
Nov 10, 2009, 7:14 AM
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healyje wrote: bennydh wrote: Now that I'm less inclined to be respectful, 99% is total bullshit, and projecting your ridiculous assumed numbers on an entire climbing community is stupid. Sack up or blow the sand out of it, and think about climbing not falling. It may not be easy to accept, but maybe your percentage will get better when you do accept it. Except that you'll be lucky if you climb at your true physical limit even a half dozen times in a lifetime climbing career. Everything short of that, barring holds breaking - or I'll even grant you things slipping - you're jumping off, but your mind and ego require that you think you were climbing at your physical limit when it happened. Few climbers among us ever climb at their physical limit in conscience control of their body on any regular basis - the rest are just fooling themselves in a completely natural response to relinquishment.
While I've never completely disagreed with your more general concept that climbers do sometimes, maybe often, physically relinquish to a mental failure, your estimated percentage as to the frequency is only a reflection of your personal experience, and can only be an opinion.
I shared my personal experience, and without a shred of data to validate your numbers, your numbers can only be your projection unto other climbers based on your experiences.
Your assumptions as to the mental, emotional, and physical abilities, as well as the point at which one may duress to the other, about other climbers, is simply presumptive.
I respect your opinion as much as I do my own, but to state non-scientific numbers and the assertion that you wholly understand the mental state of the entire trad climbing community as if it were indisputable fact, is just pretentious and arrogant. It also doesn't lend you much credibility outside of hypocrisy in trying to convince others that they have to lay at ease egos, as a requirement to dealing with failure.
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havard
Nov 10, 2009, 7:18 AM
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camhead wrote: havard wrote: When you feel confident about your skills placing gear, you may start pushing. However, when facing a difficult section where you might fall off, you must never ever forget to think things through. Is the gear good? Is the fall clean? Where is the next placement, and will the fall be clean all the way up to that placement? If the answer to any of these questions are no, then you are free soloing. If you can say yes to all of them, then I would go for it. But then again, I'm a crazy norwegian dude, and I'm probably going to die. It's because of attitudes like this that we need not fear a Viking invasion anytime soon.
Good one, camhead. However, you are wrong. The reason for you not to fear a viking invation is that we've allready been there. And we did not see anything worth keeping. :D
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jt512
Nov 10, 2009, 7:18 AM
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bennydh wrote: healyje wrote: bennydh wrote: Now that I'm less inclined to be respectful, 99% is total bullshit, and projecting your ridiculous assumed numbers on an entire climbing community is stupid. Sack up or blow the sand out of it, and think about climbing not falling. It may not be easy to accept, but maybe your percentage will get better when you do accept it. Except that you'll be lucky if you climb at your true physical limit even a half dozen times in a lifetime climbing career. Everything short of that, barring holds breaking - or I'll even grant you things slipping - you're jumping off, but your mind and ego require that you think you were climbing at your physical limit when it happened. Few climbers among us ever climb at their physical limit in conscience control of their body on any regular basis - the rest are just fooling themselves in a completely natural response to relinquishment. While I've never completely disagreed with your more general concept that climbers do sometimes, maybe often, physically relinquish to a mental failure, your estimated percentage as to the frequency is only a reflection of your personal experience, and can only be an opinion. I shared my personal experience, and without a shred of data to validate your numbers, your numbers can only be your projection unto other climbers based on your experiences. Your assumptions as to the mental, emotional, and physical abilities, as well as the point at which one may duress to the other, about other climbers, is simply presumptive. I respect your opinion as much as I do my own, but to state non-scientific numbers and the assertion that you wholly understand the mental state of the entire trad climbing community as if it were indisputable fact, is just pretentious and arrogant. It also doesn't lend you much credibility outside of hypocrisy in trying to convince others that they have to lay at ease egos, as a requirement to dealing with failure.
Let me guess: you were an English major.
Jay
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healyje
Nov 10, 2009, 9:51 AM
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bennydh wrote: ...without a shred of data to validate your numbers, your numbers can only be your projection unto other climbers based on your experiences.
It's not about 'data', 'validation', or 'projection' - think of it more as a concrete application of inversion of control where, under otherwise normal circumstances, you are the primary constraint to increased agility on rock.
My personal 'experiences' have included some pretty fundamental rethinking of the barriers to improved performance on rock which led me to a few different observations over time, but the most fundamental, pertinent, and immediately applicable one of all was pretty damn simple: stop jumping off the friggin' rock.
And wouldn't you know, you can start applying it any time, even in intervals of seconds in the beginning. Next time you're getting ready to jump, tell yourself to hang in there just a second longer. Then, as they say in banking - 'mind the pennies' - the next thing you know those seconds really start adding up into some surprising staying power.
bennydh wrote: ...the assertion that you wholly understand the mental state of the entire trad climbing community as if it were indisputable fact, is just pretentious and arrogant.
Damn if it isn't it, and I'd also say it's universally applicable to all climbing and not limited to just trad climbing in any way.
bennydh wrote: It also doesn't lend you much credibility outside of hypocrisy in trying to convince others that they have to lay at ease egos, as a requirement to dealing with failure.
Ah, well, possibly you misunderstand. It isn't a matter of "having to lay at ease egos" so much as recognizing the limiting role ego plays in the face of one's own perceptions of 'failure'. Don't 'ease' your ego, but simply try to look past it with a bit of honesty about what's really happening in your head the next time you 'fall'.
As for credibility, it pretty much goes hand-in-hand with 'validation', both of which you either figure out internally or you don't - another part of the puzzle no doubt. My FAs fairly represent my climbing over decades and you, should you ever get on any of them, are certainly free to judge me by them as you will.
(This post was edited by healyje on Nov 10, 2009, 10:15 AM)
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angry
Nov 10, 2009, 11:46 AM
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I think a fair bit of lead falls are just as you said, people jumping off.
Making the assessment that you're too tired to continue, or it's unsafe, etc and dropping off. I'm even inclined to agree with you more when I think about my most utterly on edge leads, the ones where I hung absolutely everything I had out; most of those times, I sent.
However, I have fallen at an above my maximum level. And I've frequently pushed beyond what I thought I could do. I'm just some Alien luvin punk ass, I'm not some statistical outlier. I wouldn't say most climbers are like me but there are a hell of a lot that are, far more than your BS statistic states.
Your psuedo spiritual half-matrix eye of the tiger mumbo jumbo makes me realize you have nothing to base your claims on other than a feeling. Of course, you're Healyje, you're always right, you cannot be wrong and you cannot be persuaded any other arguments. I'll soon be insulted by you informing me that I only argue because you go where I'm afraid to.
Who is this noble Zen Master? The one who has all the insight into climbing and really, into our souls? It's a man who can rope solo 11+ in mossy choss and who might have toproped a 5.13 in the 70's, but it was a totally R-rated toprope. Bow.
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camhead
Nov 10, 2009, 12:10 PM
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healyje wrote: bennydh wrote: Now that I'm less inclined to be respectful, 99% is total bullshit, and projecting your ridiculous assumed numbers on an entire climbing community is stupid. Sack up or blow the sand out of it, and think about climbing not falling. It may not be easy to accept, but maybe your percentage will get better when you do accept it. Except that you'll be lucky if you climb at your true physical limit even a half dozen times in a lifetime climbing career. Everything short of that, barring holds breaking - or I'll even grant you things slipping - you're jumping off, but your mind and ego require that you think you were climbing at your physical limit when it happened. Few climbers among us ever climb at their physical limit in conscience control of their body on any regular basis - the rest are just fooling themselves in a completely natural response to relinquishment.
I agree with this to a degree, at least from my personal experience. It has been very rare for me to truly climb at my 100% limit, and to fall from purely physical failure. My falls have almost always been a case of my head saying "you can't do this move" and then my body failing a millisecond later. It's a great feeling to push your mind and body forward, and to either send, or to fail purely physically.
I would expect that most climbers have a similar process of mental doubt before physical failure.
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dingus
Nov 10, 2009, 3:07 PM
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angry wrote: I think a fair bit of lead falls are just as you said, people jumping off. Making the assessment that you're too tired to continue, or it's unsafe, etc and dropping off. I'm even inclined to agree with you more when I think about my most utterly on edge leads, the ones where I hung absolutely everything I had out; most of those times, I sent. However, I have fallen at an above my maximum level. And I've frequently pushed beyond what I thought I could do. I'm just some Alien luvin punk ass, I'm not some statistical outlier. I wouldn't say most climbers are like me but there are a hell of a lot that are, far more than your BS statistic states. Your psuedo spiritual half-matrix eye of the tiger mumbo jumbo makes me realize you have nothing to base your claims on other than a feeling. Of course, you're Healyje, you're always right, you cannot be wrong and you cannot be persuaded any other arguments. I'll soon be insulted by you informing me that I only argue because you go where I'm afraid to. Who is this noble Zen Master? The one who has all the insight into climbing and really, into our souls? It's a man who can rope solo 11+ in mossy choss and who might have toproped a 5.13 in the 70's, but it was a totally R-rated toprope. Bow.
You're not normal Angry. Face it. you pursue hard OW and other hints of madness.
I'm an average bloke, the sort of which healyje writes about. Rarely have I truly and I mean truly risen to my capacity in the contexts of this thread. Done it other ways more consistently, but in terms of lead climbing trad... no.
I was blessed for a time to climb with a man who not only could but did consistently lead right up to his limits and yet rarely did he fall.
We top roped and bouldered enough together that at any given time I knew his absolute performance thresholds reasonably well.
He had (to my eye) and incredible gift of self-assessment. He could and often did climb to within the merest wisp of his absolute ability, often way runnout too.
He'd back down some, but mostly he knew himself well enough it wasn't necessary.
He had the gift. A Master, in the true sense.
What a of these threads ignore is the totality of a career. A guy like healyje can't ignore it, he's lived it. Some of you, no disrespect intended are still wet behind the ears and have yet to taste the bitter pill of middle age.
Some day your best days will be behind you; they will. And yet if you're lucky you will still be climbing. Continuing to push to your limits in a declining body.... that takes a special form of madness and mental mastery, particularly if you've ever been hurt due to your own past failings and fallings.
Think about these questions when you are 40, 45, 50, 55 and 60...
Climber.,.. KNOW THYSELF.
DMT
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kachoong
Nov 10, 2009, 3:38 PM
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havard wrote: camhead wrote: havard wrote: When you feel confident about your skills placing gear, you may start pushing. However, when facing a difficult section where you might fall off, you must never ever forget to think things through. Is the gear good? Is the fall clean? Where is the next placement, and will the fall be clean all the way up to that placement? If the answer to any of these questions are no, then you are free soloing. If you can say yes to all of them, then I would go for it. But then again, I'm a crazy norwegian dude, and I'm probably going to die. It's because of attitudes like this that we need not fear a Viking invasion anytime soon. Good one, camhead. However, you are wrong. The reason for you not to fear a viking invation is that we've allready been there. And we did not see anything worth keeping. :D
From what I have read, it was the natives with bows in canoes that drove off the vikings from Newfoundland.... a couple of times....
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kachoong
Nov 10, 2009, 3:45 PM
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angry wrote: I'm just some Alien luvin punk ass, I'm not some statistical outlier.
Some would argue that these are the same thing... but I think more people use them (members of the "I Love Falling on Aliens Coalition") than the haters might think.
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the_climber
Nov 10, 2009, 4:32 PM
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healyje wrote: bennydh wrote: As far as that 99 out 100 emotional thingy, I'd disagree. I won't call it BS, but that certainly has not been my experience. Well, that is exactly what I'd expect most climbers to say - it's not an easy idea to digest and accept - but then, embracing that umpleasant truth might just set your climbing free...
I'm with healy on this one. Benny, how many "no fall" situation have you been in? I'm talking about the ones where you're strung out on new ground... I'm talking about the ones when a fall would require a rescue at best (most likely worse), and the requirement to sack up and climb was at the highest it's ever been; The edge of the emotional envelope so to speak.
You would be shocked at how well you can climb when you master your fears when it counts.
Most who have been there, or even close to there, would agree with the 99% of the time we back off because of emotional reasons.
Edit to add: There are some climbers who can climb with a mastery of their fears and a "true" understanding of their physical limits. Dingus touched on that a few posts above.
(This post was edited by the_climber on Nov 10, 2009, 4:36 PM)
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minibiter
Nov 10, 2009, 5:31 PM
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I've been trad climbing for probably two years. Didn't start falling until I was comfy with my gear and where I put it. Part of this learning process was taking intentional falls on my gear so I'd trust it. I took at least on sizeable (>10') fall on each type of gear I carry - nuts, hexes, tricams, cams. Since then I've probably taken 20-30 falls or so, you lose count after a while.
Nowadays my mantra is 'climb until you fall, so long as the gear is good and the fall is clean'.
If the gear's not good, or the fall's not clean, there's no shame in taking!
Of course, I started out as a purely sport climber, so my approach to falling is probably different than those who started out as purely trad climbers. Now I go back and forth between sport and trad.
The statement of only pushing one of the mental, physical, or safety aspect of a climb at a time is definitely good advice. Sometimes it's hard to disconnect them though, the mental aspect is heavily involved in the other two. I guess my mantra above is just a restatement of this rule of thumb.
My $0.02
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bennydh
Nov 10, 2009, 7:49 PM
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I've actually climbed in no-fall situations quite a few times. I've also mostly planned ahead of time, selected as many routes with clean falls, good gear, or at the very least no-fall climbing within my physical and mental ability; for the reason that if I were to physically fail I wouldn't fall, ground fall, and die.
In reply to: "Most who have been there, or even close to there, would agree with the 99%"
I'm going to also add, that I've climbed at my physical limit, whilst totally unconditioned, obsessed over a route, repeatedly tried to redpoint, repeatedly fell at physical limit, and had a mild and fortunately short lived bout with rhabdomyolisis as a result. It would have been better if emotional issues were preventative of such damage, but that didn't happen not 99%.
the_climber, I've agreed all along that climbers often physically duress at mental limits, and I can accept that you agree with healyje based on your experiences. Although the 99% as it has been wholly applied to the entire community based on the experiences of a few individuals as if this were some sort of fact, while a few others have shared something entirely different makes the number bogus. I've shared my experience and I am not imposing it unto all climbers as if it were factual and applicable to everyone. That would be arrogant... maybe if I loaded it into some horseshit spiritual statement so that it sounds pious as well, everyone will agree with a different number. Or if I say the Pope of the Holy Roman Catholic Church says 30 percent and he is infallible and spiritual, it must be so for everyone.
99% is an opinion, and any of you are entitled to agree with it, but it doesn't mean that it is a wholly applicable fact.
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ryanb
Nov 10, 2009, 8:21 PM
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healyje wrote: Next time you're getting ready to jump, tell yourself to hang in there just a second longer.
I'm not sure "hanging in there" is sufficient for sending on routes where the moves are legitimately hard (ie not just pumpy steep climbing). I can think of quite a few times (lead, tr and bouldering) when I have fully botched a somewhat technical dynamic move (ie missed the next hand hold or delicate high step entirely) and am simply not strong enough to recover so I end up jumping off and trying the move again.
I'm sure some percentage of these times I could fight through and send despite my sloppy technique but I've found this can often involve loss of skin and or tendons ... I find it more enjoyable to work a route till I can style my way up it.
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dbogardus
Nov 10, 2009, 8:34 PM
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bennydh wrote: 99% is an opinion, and any of you are entitled to agree with it, but it doesn't mean that it is a wholly applicable fact.
99% of climbers agree with you benny.
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wmfork
Nov 10, 2009, 9:33 PM
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healyje wrote: Few climbers among us ever climb at their physical limit in conscience control of their body on any regular basis - the rest are just fooling themselves in a completely natural response to relinquishment.
There is a big difference between not able to reach your physical limit and simply relinquishing control. Besides, I thought conscious mind is what inhibits you from reaching physical limit.
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pfwein
Nov 10, 2009, 10:19 PM
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ryanb wrote: healyje wrote: Next time you're getting ready to jump, tell yourself to hang in there just a second longer. I'm not sure "hanging in there" is sufficient for sending on routes where the moves are legitimately hard (ie not just pumpy steep climbing). I can think of quite a few times (lead, tr and bouldering) when I have fully botched a somewhat technical dynamic move (ie missed the next hand hold or delicate high step entirely) and am simply not strong enough to recover so I end up jumping off and trying the move again. I'm sure some percentage of these times I could fight through and send despite my sloppy technique but I've found this can often involve loss of skin and or tendons ... I find it more enjoyable to work a route till I can style my way up it.
I was going to ask if Healyje boulders (I don't mean certain old skool style where you rarely fall bouldering, I mean new skool where if you aren't falling most of the time, you're not trying hard enough). I'd be surprised if so, because it's pretty clear to me that most people who like bouldering are trying as hard as they can, most of the time.
They may not reach their absolute physical peak due to limits in technique or for other reasons, but it ain't about Matrix style mental tricks, it's about how much force you can apply to the holds with (usually) your hands and feet. It's physics, not psychology.
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