There is absolutely no reason to be using a device like the reverso or atc guide in everyday climbing. Anything you can do with one of those devices can easily and efficiently be accomplished with a standard atc style belay device and a few slings.

I'm going to pick a nit here... It's not definitely doable. It's sometimes doable, depending on a variety of factors.

If I had to take my hands away from the belay for any extended period of time (meaning more than a few seconds), I would alert my climber and tie them off as a back up. If I needed to put on a jacket or tinker with something in the name of speed,

The "bad judgement" that caused this accident had nothing to do with the improper use of the device. The "bad judgement" was using this device in the first place.

The "bad judgement" that caused this accident had nothing to do with the improper use of the device. The "bad judgement" was using this device in the first place.

For those advocating the use of an autoblocking device, there seems to me to be a few situations in which one could actually increase the safety involved in the climbing system that havent been mentioned.

Say on an ice climb where there is a lot of ice falling from above, or a rock climb where there is a lot of potential for rock falling from above (ie tourists, other climbers, early season thaw).

Granted, it really only increases the safety once the lead climber has started to belay from above (they would be vulnerable in a normal belay situation at the start of each pitch). But it could potentially prevent a situation where the belayer could be hit by a rock/ice and incapacitated causing them to drop the rope. In that situation, the device would lock in the event of the seconds fall.

Just a thought

This whole debate is leaning me towards hauling my gri gri out on multipitch more, or perhaps a cinch purchase is in order. The one truly nice application I've used an autoblock device like the ATC Guide for is belaying two seconds at once. Other than that, I'm usually belaying directly off the hip or via a redirect for the same reasons others have provided. I mean, other than controlling thin lines for multiple seconds, and the possible rock/ice fall possibilities, what is the big advantage? I've heard at least one instance where the leader using a Guide as an autoblock neglected her second to take pictures instead and he took a nice toprope whipper. Although, for the belayer who either wants to half-ass it or who enjoys giving the second a wedgie, I guess it is the perfect device.

"I read my post and remembered I just don't give a crap. "

Then you shouldn't be posting to this thread.

"Anyone know how the climber/belayer are doing? "

Lousy attempt at redirecting the attention from yourself.


The modern day climber (which appears to about 99% of this site) seems to be smitten with gear. Shiny objects. There is absolutely no reason to be using a device like the reverso or atc guide in everyday climbing. Anything you can do with one of those devices can easily and efficiently be accomplished with a standard atc style belay device and a few slings.

The "bad judgement" that caused this accident had nothing to do with the improper use of the device. The "bad judgement" was using this device in the first place.

You answered your own question.

Advantages: speed, belaying two people at once, won't kill your climber if you get hit by rock or fall unconscious

Disadvantages: hard to lower, requires practise, may inflate ego unduly because it has "guide" in the name

I use an atc guide and most of the time I belay of the anchor. If I have to give slack, it can be a little bit of a pain, and in this instance a tuber off your harness is DEFINITELY easier.

For those who say different are FOS, but the benefits of an autoblock (for me) outweigh that.

Belaying off an anchor takes the force of the second's fall off your body and puts it on the anchor. That's one of the perks for using a gri gri or reverso / guide on multi pitch.

You belay primarily for the benefit of the person you are belaying, not for yourself.

I am not drinking the Luddite tainted Kool Aid, and will stick with my reverso when and where appropriate.

Yes, but it does so at the cost of giving lousy belay to a competent second. Redirecting the belay from your harness through the anchor results in about as much weight on your harness as does belaying a hanging a leader from the ground directly off your harness. Isn't that a small price to pay for the improvement in the quality of the belay that the second receives?

Jay

So your argument is basically, it's newer, therefore, it's better. Well, that is pretty much the assumption that has led to the wide adoption of autoblocking devices. At least you're not alone when you're on a bandwagon.

Jay

I have stated my preferences, and I don't really care what you think.

You speak of these "instances" in which you "have to" give slack as if they are rare. But if you are giving a good belay, then every time your second steps down a foot to get a shake, to get a different angle on removing a piece, or to try a move a different way, you should be giving the second slack. Such little retreats are not rare; they're routine. And if you can't pay out slack to accommodate them as quickly as you can take up slack in response to a step upward, then you simply are giving a lousy belay.


First of all, at this point in thread, after the counterarguments to these supposed benefits, given by rgold (as quoted by robdotcalm), by robdotcalm himself, by me, by zeke (below), and by others, it is no longer valid to simply assert the existence of these benefits. We've shot down every one that has been mentioned for routine cragging while belaying a single follower. Furthermore, the question shouldn't be whether the benefits (even if they are real) for the belayer outweigh the disadvantages for the second, but whether the benefits (if any) for the second outweigh the disadvantages for the second. You belay primarily for the benefit of the person you are belaying, not for yourself.

Jay

If I've received a bad belay due to a device, I would have figured that out by now. Likewise, if I have given a bad belay due to a device, I would have heard so.

YAWN. Here we go again.

I love how you like to assume what I am inferring. I have to give slack quite a bit, as you say. To state that it is easier when belaying off of your harness is true. But guess what, I can do it pretty fast off the anchor as well.

Well, "pretty fast" is still to slow. If you can't let slack out as fast as you can take it in, the quality of the belay you are giving has been compromised, with essentially no compensating benefit.

Jay

You are assuming that every belay off the anchor is a bad belay.

Have you learned how to do it yourself?

Yes, but it does so at the cost of giving lousy belay to a competent second. Redirecting the belay from your harness through the anchor results in about as much weight on your harness as does belaying a hanging a leader from the ground directly off your harness. Isn't that a small price to pay for the improvement in the quality of the belay that the second receives?

Jay