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Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday
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JimTitt


Mar 29, 2010, 11:52 AM
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Re: [bandycoot] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
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Are your hexes lonely? I´ve a brand new, unmarked set somewhere, 9 years old I guess!
I´ve got a boulder brush keeping them company though.


patto


Mar 29, 2010, 2:51 PM
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Re: [JimTitt] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
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JimTitt wrote:
As I posted above. "All the tests were exactly to the manufacturers instructions".
The method you describe is specific to one manufacturer, prohibited by another, wouldn´t work on another device and not the method described on two others. 3 others came with no instructions on how to lower and this is not mentioned.

Well I'm not sure the method I describe is specific to ANY manufacturers. I have not seen brake rope redirects recommeded, though who knows maybe they are. The instructions provided by the manufacturer may be insufficient for smooth and safe operation. Try using the device intelligently and the difficulties you claim will dissapear. (I'm a bit scared if you think climbing can be performed simply by following the manufacturers instructions on the equipmet.)

Either way you have made claims that are plainly false and misleading. You seem to be deliberately obtuse with regard to how to opperate the devices in a smooth and safe manner.

In my experience my Reverso feeds as smoothly or more smoothly than a Munter hitch. Large radius carabiners are essential.

cracklover wrote:
Perhaps some here will say that the issue was specific to the first generation Reverso? I really can't say one way or the other. Jim, which device was your wife using when she was unable to unblock it? And to what extremes did she go to try to do so?

GO

The original Reverso requires significantly more weight to unblock. This experience shows that the autoblockers aren't for everybody. This accident is evidence for that. Certainly if there is one thing that I will take from this thread it is that.


(This post was edited by patto on Mar 29, 2010, 2:56 PM)


curt


Mar 29, 2010, 4:16 PM
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Re: [patto] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
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patto wrote:
JimTitt wrote:
As I posted above. "All the tests were exactly to the manufacturers instructions".
The method you describe is specific to one manufacturer, prohibited by another, wouldn´t work on another device and not the method described on two others. 3 others came with no instructions on how to lower and this is not mentioned.

Well I'm not sure the method I describe is specific to ANY manufacturers. I have not seen brake rope redirects recommeded, though who knows maybe they are. The instructions provided by the manufacturer may be insufficient for smooth and safe operation. Try using the device intelligently and the difficulties you claim will dissapear. (I'm a bit scared if you think climbing can be performed simply by following the manufacturers instructions on the equipmet.)

Either way you have made claims that are plainly false and misleading. You seem to be deliberately obtuse with regard to how to opperate the devices in a smooth and safe manner...

Yes, you obviously are the only person on the entire planet with any experience or credibility on this topic. Since you are obviously singularly gifted and possess absolutely superhuman abilities, perhaps you could also offer some golf lessons to Tiger Woods and Phil Mickelson? I don't know how Phil would feel about this, but we know that Tiger would probably enjoy being around another vagina.

My personal opinion is that you are either being disingenuous, or you just don't know what good belaying is. I was going to restrain myself--but this thread has already gone to hell in a handbasket.

Curt


patto


Mar 29, 2010, 6:25 PM
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Re: [curt] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
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curt wrote:
Yes, you obviously are the only person on the entire planet with any experience or credibility on this topic. Since you are obviously singularly gifted and possess absolutely superhuman abilities, perhaps you could also offer some golf lessons to Tiger Woods and Phil Mickelson? I don't know how Phil would feel about this, but we know that Tiger would probably enjoy being around another vagina.

Your sarcasm does not aid discussion. I don't claim superhuman abilities nor do i think others in this thread lack skill and experience. However I cannot ignore the fact that I manage to operate autoblockers without most of the problems mentioned.


curt wrote:
My personal opinion is that you are either being disingenuous, or you just don't know what good belaying is.
Disingenuous? Simply because I claim I can operate an autoblocker!? WOW! Have you considered that with the thousands sold and used everyday that maybe they can operate effectively?

curt wrote:
I was going to restrain myself--but this thread has already gone to hell in a handbasket.

Curt
Oh I agree. But when people continue to make absurd claims based on their own difficulties with autoblockers its hard not to respond.


ClimbClimb


Mar 29, 2010, 6:52 PM
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Re: [patto] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
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patto wrote:
I don't claim superhuman abilities nor do i think others in this thread lack skill and experience. However I cannot ignore the fact that I manage to operate autoblockers without most of the problems mentioned.


Just because you used an autoblocker N times without incident, does not mean that it -- or another autoblocking device -- does not have characteristics which add significant risk to climbers making use of it. The only claim you could possibly refute is if someone had said that "autoblockers kill you 100% of the time". Even cyanide is not 100% fatal in small enough doses.

All the yelling aside, there are some...characteristics... of thse devices that suggest non-obvious safety risks. Everyone can make their own judgment about whether to take the risks -- but as they say, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not to their own facts.

Don't worry, though, no one from the government is coming to "take your guns and ATG-Guides away". Use what you want. Just don't insist there's no issue here and it's all "pilot error".

Oh, and Curt's sarcasm really helps the discussion, unliked your bolding. :-)


curt


Mar 29, 2010, 7:21 PM
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Re: [ClimbClimb] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
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Well, it certainly made me feel better. Cool

Curt


acorneau


Mar 29, 2010, 7:48 PM
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Re Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
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15 pages? I believe it's time for...




patto


Mar 29, 2010, 9:02 PM
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Re: [ClimbClimb] Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
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ClimbClimb wrote:
Just because you used an autoblocker N times without incident, does not mean that it -- or another autoblocking device -- does not have characteristics which add significant risk to climbers making use of it. The only claim you could possibly refute is if someone had said that "autoblockers kill you 100% of the time". Even cyanide is not 100% fatal in small enough doses.
I was talking about the supposed inability to take up slack smoothly and to lower smoothly. What you are suggesting is completely different.


ClimbClimb wrote:
All the yelling aside, there are some...characteristics... of thse devices that suggest non-obvious safety risks. Everyone can make their own judgment about whether to take the risks -- but as they say, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not to their own facts.

Exactly. And I was disputing facts these last few posts. Not opinions. People are continuing to report 'flaws' which only exist through their own failings.

It is akin to threading the Gri-Gri backwards and claiming it doesn't hold falls.

I have no issue with opinions presented intelligently. Richard G did this. I do take issue with who fail to use the device appropriately and then blame the tool.


(This post was edited by patto on Mar 29, 2010, 9:06 PM)


Partner rgold


Mar 29, 2010, 9:10 PM
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Re: [acorneau] Re Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
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Jim Titt is one of the most knowledgeable people I've encountered when it comes to technical matters, and I personally put a lot of stock in his conclusions. I may have to disagree with myself yet again, not that I'm a fan of guide plates anyway. At the very least, his comments warrant thoughtful consideration and, perhaps, some tests of our own.

I think one thing seems absolutely clear: the plates are the most idiosyncratic and least "idiot-proof" device out there. If you are going to use one, better understand its foibles well and be absolutely certain you know how to deal with every situation you might encounter with it.


patto


Mar 29, 2010, 10:38 PM
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Re: [rgold] Re Interesting accident at the gunks on Saturday [In reply to]
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Well I think I have had enough arguing with Jim Titt. I don't know him, you would expect that an Engineer at a Climbing Equipment Manufacturer should know a few things.

However the following statements of his i find disturbing and does not encourage faith in his abilities:
After the first lowering test we changed to using a back-up safety line. Shocked
With +10mm rope it was impossible to release. Crazy
(Impossibile is a strong word to be using for something that many others have achieved.)

When the plate tilts the pressure is removed andyou move into a nylon/aluminium regime, the frictional force immediately drops to slightly less than than half and you plummet groundwards until the lowerer releases the plate.
There shouldn't be any plummetting. If you lock off the brake rope properly there should be NO rope feed when the plate tilts. Personally I realease the autoblock completely before beginning lowering.

If however you are like Jim Titt and you are not locking off the brake side then don't be surprised to have a jerky or plummeting lower.


(This post was edited by patto on Mar 29, 2010, 10:38 PM)

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