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philbox
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May 3, 2010, 4:29 AM
Post #77 of 87
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Rope grabber here too but then I am a control freak.
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milesenoell
May 8, 2010, 7:00 PM
Post #78 of 87
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I find this interesting as I used to grab the rope when I was newer to climbing, but stopped sometime along the line as I got more confident in things. It's easy to get lulled into complacency when everything goes right for a stretch. I may go back to grabbing the rope just to work it back into my regular pattern as an easy way to buffer the risk.
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alpenweg
May 26, 2010, 8:28 PM
Post #79 of 87
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Registered: Oct 19, 2007
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yeah a guy droped me onto my back outdoors from about the 5 meter death point
i wear a helmet but still do not understand how nothing wasn`t kaput
God saved me!
lesson learned, i choose my belayers well!
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billcoe_
Jun 1, 2010, 3:29 AM
Post #80 of 87
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Registered: Jun 30, 2002
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Look, it's really fu*uing simple. Do NOT climb with inexperienced people. Let the noobs go drop someone else. Belaying is a skill. It use to be known as THE most important thing in climbing and was studied and practiced and practiced and practiced some more. For some reason that standard hasn't held up. Just because some jackass showed some well meaning noob how to do it and you walk over and tie in to get belayed doesn't mean they can do it consistently, or if on real rock, with the other hand, or do it in the gym the 2nd or 3rd time. DO NOT CLIMB WITH NOOBS. Don't train them how to belay either, as it just crowds up the areas. Christ...it's so fu*ing simple people.
Glad you healed up Gail, for the rest of you, you don't have to be dropped to the dirt to figure this out. I bet JT has some pretty stringent requirements before he'll let you touch the other end of his rope while he's climbing. I do, and mine is you must have been climbing for 2 full years before I'll even consider climbing with you. Do I violate this rule? Sure, but it's rare. When I do, first time out I try and be a 3rd person and observe them belay another person first. I feel that it reduces the probability of being dropped at least 95%, perhaps more.
But that's me. Last time I violated my 2 year rule my son came back from college and had finally come over to the dark side and wanted to go out on real rock. (or what passes for real rock around here) Guess what we did first? We went right outside right that moment in front of the house, I tied him off to a telephone pole and I walked towards him while he practiced belaying and catching me. Over and over and over. Then we went out with a small group toproping and I watched him belay others from next to his side. Made sure both hands were on the brake side as he lowered. So when we finally got out in the wilderness, miles from the road with literally no cell coverage, and while I was leading I asked him to lower me down to kick off some lose stuff while doing the 3rd ascent of a multipitch ridge that was still dirty and loose, I didn't think twice about my belay.
You all want to just had a noob a gri gri and think that fixed it? Be my guest, however, the same mindset of not giving a shit if the person has skill or not that screwed ya when the noob had the atc will see your teeth eating dirt soon enough.
ClimbClimb wrote: Did you ever figure out what went wrong or any lessons to be drawn, besides having known-good belayers?
gblauer wrote: blah blah meaningless blah blah.... I minimized my group of belayers, I was no longer the guinea pig to take falls for new belayers
That's it. In reply to: I was no longer the guinea pig to take falls for new belayers
That's what you all need to take away from this.
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billcoe_
Jun 1, 2010, 3:42 AM
Post #81 of 87
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I just realized that I didn't post accurately and fully above. When my son came home for that summer and said he wanted to go outside (for the first time) and climb, we actually did multiple practice sessions like the telephone pole thing I noted above, before we climbed rock. Then he and I went to a 30' high wall and we practiced some more. Then we went toproping with others, then we went out. The sequence was like, practice belaying...days later practice again, wait a few days practice, go out and practice belaying on the ground and then both of us climb/belay (so he can learn to trust me) a short wall that I often highball boulder and has a nice landing, then later real rock toproping with others, then outside on longer rock climbs close to the roads with cell coverage (like the pic below, great cell coverage, 5 min from the car and @ 30 min SAR response!), then wilderness stuff. I still conside him a beginer and he's coming home soon for this summer, we'll redo some of this stuff cause the stuff I'm climbing these days got even more serious. Don't skip these steps, it's a damn deadly enough thing we do to ignore easy shit like this that should be done by everyone.
This is the kid following the first ascent of the route Jim Opdycke named "Child Abuse" LOL! ...Jeff Thomas photo.
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spikeddem
Jun 2, 2010, 8:21 PM
Post #82 of 87
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Why not grab jugs/draws instead of the rope?
Seems to me that grabbing the rope is similar to when beginners grab their end of the rope to pull themselves up. By grabbing jugs/draws, you would get a better indication of how much tension you're actually receiving from the belayer rather than your own pulling?
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Gmburns2000
Jun 2, 2010, 9:00 PM
Post #83 of 87
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Registered: Mar 6, 2007
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spikeddem wrote: Why not grab jugs/draws instead of the rope? Seems to me that grabbing the rope is similar to when beginners grab their end of the rope to pull themselves up. By grabbing jugs/draws, you would get a better indication of how much tension you're actually receiving from the belayer rather than your own pulling?
this is typically what I do when I am lowered. I prefer belayors who let me rest completely on the rope first before they start lowering me, too.
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dingus
Jun 2, 2010, 9:51 PM
Post #84 of 87
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Registered: Dec 16, 2002
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spikeddem wrote: Why not grab jugs/draws instead of the rope? Seems to me that grabbing the rope is similar to when beginners grab their end of the rope to pull themselves up. By grabbing jugs/draws, you would get a better indication of how much tension you're actually receiving from the belayer rather than your own pulling?
What if there IS no tension, then what?
What does this gain you? You still have to let go of those jugs/draws and weight the rope. The moment of truth, in other words, is only delayed by the time you spend wasting energy by dangling.
Let's say the belayer passes out, as you're dangling there. Whatcha gonna do?
Or the belayer IS paying attention or at least you think he is. You let of the jugs and suddenly drop 10 feet.... he wasn't really paying attention at all. He was making eyes at the dude by the counter.
By grabbing the rope, you are ready to deal. The purpose of grabbing the rope is to be ready in case there is a problem. It has nothing to do with inappropriate rope groping by noobs.
Look I don't care if you grab the rope or not, or think its nooby or not. Just trying to explain the reason, tis all. Do as you please!
Cheers
DMT
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jt512
Jun 2, 2010, 10:43 PM
Post #85 of 87
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Registered: Apr 12, 2001
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spikeddem wrote: Why not grab jugs/draws instead of the rope? Seems to me that grabbing the rope is similar to when beginners grab their end of the rope to pull themselves up. By grabbing jugs/draws, you would get a better indication of how much tension you're actually receiving from the belayer rather than your own pulling?
No, you know exactly how much tension you're on when you grab the rope. Try it, and you'll see.
What I often do after I've clipped the anchors is grab the rope and say "take" simultaneously. Then I start lowering myself hand over hand while the belayer is putting me on tension. When I can no longer lower myself, I know the belayer has me, and I can safely let go of the rope. Doing this also helps to get all the stretch out of the rope, so that you don't get lowered too fast as you first weight the rope. For what it's worth, it also saves a few seconds per climb.
Jay
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hugepedro
Jun 8, 2010, 7:13 AM
Post #86 of 87
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Registered: May 28, 2002
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billcoe_ wrote: I just realized that I didn't post accurately and fully above. When my son came home for that summer and said he wanted to go outside (for the first time) and climb, we actually did multiple practice sessions like the telephone pole thing I noted above, before we climbed rock. Then he and I went to a 30' high wall and we practiced some more. Then we went toproping with others, then we went out. The sequence was like, practice belaying...days later practice again, wait a few days practice, go out and practice belaying on the ground and then both of us climb/belay (so he can learn to trust me) a short wall that I often highball boulder and has a nice landing, then later real rock toproping with others, then outside on longer rock climbs close to the roads with cell coverage (like the pic below, great cell coverage, 5 min from the car and @ 30 min SAR response!), then wilderness stuff. I still conside him a beginer and he's coming home soon for this summer, we'll redo some of this stuff cause the stuff I'm climbing these days got even more serious. Don't skip these steps, it's a damn deadly enough thing we do to ignore easy shit like this that should be done by everyone. This is the kid following the first ascent of the route Jim Opdycke named "Child Abuse" LOL! ...Jeff Thomas photo. [image]http://cascadeclimbers.com/plab/data/500/medium/Shaun_following_Child_Abuse.JPG[/image]
Did you also wipe the kid's ass when he shit his britches from being scared witless on that gnarly 5.3 cuz he's led such a sheltered existence his whole life?
Joke. I keeed. ;)
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zeke_sf
Jun 8, 2010, 7:47 AM
Post #87 of 87
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Registered: Apr 28, 2006
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jt512 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: jt512 wrote: ClimbClimb wrote: jt512 wrote: It's obvious what went wrong: the belayer didn't lock off. Jay, yes, of course, I get that. I'm just wondering -- in tune with other threads on the topic -- whether there are some "belayer warning signs" or the like. The German accident was a leader fall, with much slack out, so that's actually easier to understand than a lowering accident like gblauer describes. It's unclear from gail's description whether she fell or had clipped into the anchors to be lowered. If the latter, then there is something to be learned: you shouldn't rely on a verbal "got" from your belayer. Rather, before lowering, you should grab the belayer's side of the rope with both hands. Then, after getting the verbal "got," gradually settle onto the rope, not letting go until you're certain that your belayer actually does have you. Jay like you do that every single time. [rolled eyes] Yes, actually, I do do that every single time. Jay
Heh. You are consistent. I remember asking you this a couple of years ago or so to the same answer. Again, bravo, you are a smart son bitch.
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