Typical mis-interpretation of the Gunks etiquette... Leader Priority is not a carte blanche to take over a top roped climb.
But if all they wanted was 20ft of 'your' route, and your climber was nearly at the top, was it worth getting worked up about?

TE

ooo.. the clusterfuck at the Maria vs Maria direct P1 anchor probably would have been a great photo.. that little stance is small enough with 1 party let alone 2.

Here's the setup:

We're a party of Three - 2 trad leaders - one with 30 years experience the other leader (me) with 7-8 years experience, finally 1 newbie with 6 days experience.

Trad leader with most experience leads a very popular 5.6 in the Gunks (frog's head) with the intention of setting up a TR for newbie to gain experience/confidence.

Leader 1 finishes route VERY quickly (it IS a 5.6), is lowered from anchor, gear is still in place.

Leader 2 is belaying TR for newbie climber, who is dealing with typical-newbie-climber issues BUT is climbing well and fairly quickly for a new climber.

Newbie climber is 3/4 the way up said route.

Meanwhile group of 3 walk up to base of route 5 feet from me and racks up to climb.

me: (friendly) Hi guys... what are you getting on?
them: Frog's Head
me: Ah, well... we just got on it
them: We'll climb around
me: Oh. Well would you mind waiting? The climber is pretty new and might get nervous if you try to climb around.
them: She won't even know I’m there
me: Ummmmm, yea... she will. She's really new and is not very confident yet, would you mind waiting for her to finish the route?
them: (discussion amongst them)
them: (tying in seemingly to climb frog's head)
me: (still friendly) So would you mind waiting till she's done, besides my gear is still in place, if you wait, i'll run up it really quickly and pull my gear, then you can have at it.
them: (Ignoring me)
them: (leader about to climb)
me: (incredulously) You're NOT going to wait for me to pull my gear?
them: We're going to be nice and climb the route NEXT to you
(side note: both routes share the first 20 feet or so)
me: Can you please wait till I pull my gear; I don't want to get our gear mixed up. We JUST got here, the leader put up the route, my climber is just finishing the route and I’ve not even gotten on it yet.
their
leader: I’m not going to use any gear in your route

their leader proceeds to climb the first 15 feet of Frog's Head and is standing on top of
the first block with no protection in...
their belayer stumbles backwards a foot or 2 pulling the rope **A little** ALMOST pulling leader off the block
leader feels this and yells "whoa"


I have mixed feelings at this, but say nothing.

me: Ya know, I don't mind sharing the route or anchors at all,
I just want to be sure my climber is safe and our gear doesn't get mixed up
I mean... come on... we were all new climbers at one time or another, have a little compassion.

them: Well climber etiquette says any leader climbs through any top rope setup.
me: Hmmm... i'm not so sure about that.

They climb away and follow a route to the right,
eventually climbing ABOVE a party of 5 that's are set up a few routes to the right,
setting an anchor to do the 2nd pitch.

... the party of 5 was never ASKED by the party of 3 that their intention was to do so.

SOOO I ask you all.

Was I being unreasonable by asking the party of 3 to wait?

1) They never asked to share the route
2) I still hadn't gotten on the route
3) (though they didn't know this because they didn't ask), we had no plans of
setting up camp and hogging the route... we were all going to do it once and move on
4) When arriving at a climb that's currently occupied, I’ve always asked the people ahead of me if they minded if we climbed below them once they've set off on the 2nd pitch, but would NEVER assume I could get on a route that they're actively climbing.

Anyway - just wanted to get some feedback. I think they were seriously in the wrong here.

Or for the second group to just chill the hell out for 10 minutes? Works both ways.

them: We're going to be nice and climb the route NEXT to you
(side note: both routes share the first 20 feet or so)
me: Can you please wait till I pull my gear; I don't want to get our gear mixed up. We JUST got here, the leader put up the route, my climber is just finishing the route and I’ve not even gotten on it yet.
their
leader: I’m not going to use any gear in your route

100% agree, but unfortunately worse rudeness than this happens at the Gunks most weekends. If someone insists on being a dick, and you are unable to dissuade them, as long as it isn't dangerous, you need to get over it. Righteous indignation won't help you climb better.

TE

I think you were justified in your stance and reaction to the situation. Up till this point:


I don't see why that should have affected you at all.

+1

+1

True, but went on to become the jerks on the other route. P1 of Maria (route next to the route the OP was on) is a R>L traverse to a very small anchor stance. To which it seems another group was doing Maria Direct which goes to the same anchor..

The bottom line is you were top-roping a super poplular route. It doesn't matter how fast you were. There are routes you can top-rope without tying up a popular trad line. Those routes are where you should have brought the beginner. IMHO

True, but went on to become the jerks on the other route. P1 of Maria (route next to the route the OP was on) is a R>L traverse to a very small anchor stance. To which it seems another group was doing Maria Direct which goes to the same anchor..

A lot of people think their opinions as leaders hold more weight than that of someone topropping. A lot of people also think that their opinion as a 5.11 climber holds more weight than you as a 5.9 climber. Doesn't make either correct.

route. P1 of Maria (route next to the route the OP was on) is a R>L traverse to a very small anchor stance.

A lot of people think their opinions as leaders hold more weight than that of someone topropping. A lot of people also think that their opinion as a 5.11 climber holds more weight than you as a 5.9 climber. Doesn't make either correct.

I agree with you. Doesn't matter how hard you climb to have a valid opinion. The accepted etiquette at the Gunks has always been you don't top-rope trad lines or you at least get out of the way of trad climbers, especially on super popular three star trad climbs like Frogs Head. It is generally a trad climbing area. There are some top roping areas there that can be utilized, Jumping on one of the most traveled trad lines there and top-roping it is just bad judgment.

perhaps they weren't following the standard local ethic, but thats really beside the point. the party of three were being douchebags, which doesnt really help anyone- they could have been more polite and had a little patience, and maybe even helped educate the OP on the local ethic- but god forbid we should actually be kind and help out people when we're on a mission to climb a two pitch route.

A lot of people think their opinions as leaders hold more weight than that of someone topropping. A lot of people also think that their opinion as a 5.11 climber holds more weight than you as a 5.9 climber. Doesn't make either correct.

perhaps they weren't following the standard local ethic, but thats really beside the point. the party of three were being douchebags, which doesnt really help anyone- they could have been more polite and had a little patience, and maybe even helped educate the OP on the local ethic- but god forbid we should actually be kind and help out people when we're on a mission to climb a two pitch route.

Welcome to the Gunks.

PS, I think that ^^ sums it up righ there.

True, but went on to become the jerks on the other route. P1 of Maria (route next to the route the OP was on) is a R>L traverse to a very small anchor stance...

Isn't having a party of 5 on a popular multipitch route poor climbing etiquette as well? It is here on the west coast in my experience

Are you by any chance, dyslexic?

Curt

Here's the setup:

We're a party of Three - 2 trad leaders - one with 30 years experience the other leader (me) with 7-8 years experience, finally 1 newbie with 6 days experience.

Trad leader with most experience leads a very popular 5.6 in the Gunks (frog's head) with the intention of setting up a TR for newbie to gain experience/confidence.

Leader 1 finishes route VERY quickly (it IS a 5.6), is lowered from anchor, gear is still in place.

Leader 2 is belaying TR for newbie climber, who is dealing with typical-newbie-climber issues BUT is climbing well and fairly quickly for a new climber.

Newbie climber is 3/4 the way up said route.

Meanwhile group of 3 walk up to base of route 5 feet from me and racks up to climb.

me: (friendly) Hi guys... what are you getting on?
them: Frog's Head
me: Ah, well... we just got on it
them: We'll climb around
me: Oh. Well would you mind waiting? The climber is pretty new and might get nervous if you try to climb around.
them: She won't even know I’m there
me: Ummmmm, yea... she will. She's really new and is not very confident yet, would you mind waiting for her to finish the route?
them: (discussion amongst them)
them: (tying in seemingly to climb frog's head)
me: (still friendly) So would you mind waiting till she's done, besides my gear is still in place, if you wait, i'll run up it really quickly and pull my gear, then you can have at it.
them: (Ignoring me)
them: (leader about to climb)
me: (incredulously) You're NOT going to wait for me to pull my gear?
them: We're going to be nice and climb the route NEXT to you
(side note: both routes share the first 20 feet or so)
me: Can you please wait till I pull my gear; I don't want to get our gear mixed up. We JUST got here, the leader put up the route, my climber is just finishing the route and I’ve not even gotten on it yet.
their
leader: I’m not going to use any gear in your route

their leader proceeds to climb the first 15 feet of Frog's Head and is standing on top of
the first block with no protection in...
their belayer stumbles backwards a foot or 2 pulling the rope **A little** ALMOST pulling leader off the block
leader feels this and yells "whoa"


I have mixed feelings at this, but say nothing.

me: Ya know, I don't mind sharing the route or anchors at all,
I just want to be sure my climber is safe and our gear doesn't get mixed up
I mean... come on... we were all new climbers at one time or another, have a little compassion.

them: Well climber etiquette says any leader climbs through any top rope setup.
me: Hmmm... i'm not so sure about that.

They climb away and follow a route to the right,
eventually climbing ABOVE a party of 5 that's are set up a few routes to the right,
setting an anchor to do the 2nd pitch.

... the party of 5 was never ASKED by the party of 3 that their intention was to do so.

SOOO I ask you all.

Was I being unreasonable by asking the party of 3 to wait?

1) They never asked to share the route
2) I still hadn't gotten on the route
3) (though they didn't know this because they didn't ask), we had no plans of
setting up camp and hogging the route... we were all going to do it once and move on
4) When arriving at a climb that's currently occupied, I’ve always asked the people ahead of me if they minded if we climbed below them once they've set off on the 2nd pitch, but would NEVER assume I could get on a route that they're actively climbing.

Anyway - just wanted to get some feedback. I think they were seriously in the wrong here.

Well, most people(except for chicken shits like me) don't place gear in first 20 feet of Frog's Head, anyway, so the fact that their belayer almost pulled the leader off the thing is a side tangent.

Maria does share the first 20 feet, as said, but since no gear...it's not really an issue. There really is no problem I could see with someone starting on Maria while I had someone TR'ing on Frogshead(which I never would have selected for a first time climber anyway), even as I, as a 3rd, was waiting to climb and clean gear.

The people do sound like nasty ones, though. Which is often the case with people who have their eyes set on one line and get panty-bunched when - whatasurprise! - they find it in use on a weekend....

To say they would climb around ON F/Head is pretty selfish, lead>toprope ethic notwithstanding, when your gear was still in situ, and especially since you were actively climbing the route.

My synopsis - Yes, they were badly behaved. And yes, you might have considered going to Peterskill to teach the newbie is a less stressful environment, or chosen a climb that you might not have expected this to happen on(anyone with more than a single season of leading at the Gunks WOULD have anticipated that there would be, at the very least, a party come along and being pissy about it). If the scenario WAS anticipated, and the attitude is "We were there first, so tough crap on you," then well.....you sort of set yourselves up for it.




Meanwhile, here's a scenario I saw this weekend....
We were a party of 3 with a leader wanting to do Jackie. Got there at 9:30 and of course it was being climbed. Instead we did RMC. Came back, and Jackie was being climbed and so....we set up a TR on Pebbles and did the various variations, keeping an eye on Jackie.

Then, Jackie opened up, and we roped up for it. Next door was a TR set up at the bolted ancjhors for Classic. Not ON Classic, which traverses quite a bit but hanging straight down, with a piece of gear set off to the right as a....directional. NOT for the climber, but for the belayer, so the rope wouldn't be in their way, I guess.....

The TR powerpoint was place dead smack IN the notch of Classic's roof, and people were group TR'ing the line. I am not sure this is a line in the guidebooks. Maybe it is. But.....

There was a leader roping to lead Classic. I wondered, to myself, whether he had asked this TR party about that powerpoint clogging up the route, but it's not my problem.

In the interim.... a leader from the TR group alights on a route to the right of Classic. I don't know the route, and don't have my book handy to check it but....

Apparent;y the leader has to traverse over to the bolted anchor of Classic, because he "ran out of gear."

So - we are headed up Jackie, watching the TR people on the route as the leader takes off on Classic, and seeing that this other dude is now clogging the Classic anchor area while he belays his second up the side route and over....

Now you might say THAT is a clusterfuck!

But it gets worse..... The TR people SEE that the leader is started on Classic, but instead of dealing with their rope, they decide it is time for lunch, and leave it hanging, along with the gear that is placed on classic, and the rope that will then be in the leader's way.



Welcome to the Gunks.

I'm the OP - I was being friendly, and I thought VERY accommodating by asking for a little patience.

"If my climber and I were doing it as a mutli-pitch, (and hence would be leading it, not TR'ing it)"

Interesting how some fairly basic terminology seems -- at least to me -- somewhat unclear. To me, the distinguishing characteristic of TR'ing (or the main reason why it's often viewed unfavorably and relegated to 2d class status) is either repeated laps on a pre-set rope, or a large number of climbers taking single laps on a rope that was set by one leader.

Of course, in this instance your party of 3 was using a belay from the ground, which TR'ers often use. But that doesn't seem particularly relevant to the main issue, which is predominantly a matter of whether the party is tying up a route for an excessive period of time through tactics viewed as inferior to "real" climbing, i.e., leading. Given the relatively narrow and heavily-used ledge at Frog's Head, belaying the 2d from the ground seems like a fairly considerate way of having a party of 3 climb, and I don't see any reason why you should be penalized for doing so.

So I suspect that if you'd written your post by saying that your party had decided to "lead" only the first pitch, etc., instead of describing it as TR'ing, you would have gotten a more favorable reception here even though, in practice, your actions and their impact on others would have been the same.

Which is a long-winded way of saying you're getting more prejudice than analysis in response to your post.

[T]oproping is 2nd class because you aren't on the sharp end with potential consequences to a fall.

who the fuck defines toproping in that way. Its toproping if 1 person does it or 20 people. toproping is 2nd class because you aren't on the sharp end with potential consequences to a fall. I'd rather have a group of 2-3 with 1 leader and the rest toproping and cleaning, it generally takes less time than for each person to lead it.

It's semantics, and probably could have been better stated. I believe he's getting at the difference between following and TRing. Most here wouldn't fault someone for following the leader and cleaning the gear, because that's normal. Yet by your definition it's "Toproping" and inferior. Whether or not there's fall potential has little to do with the main issue: when people set up a TR on a line and leave it up for hours giving all their friends a run on it. What the OP did here was nothing more than climb a route as a party of three. That's it, get over it.

... there are certain areas I try to avoid like the plague on busy weekends. The Frog's Head area is one of them.

The accepted etiquette at the Gunks has always been you don't top-rope trad lines or you at least get out of the way of trad climbers, especially on super popular three star trad climbs like Frogs Head.

Well I can tell you that area was a total cluster on Sunday and we contributed to the cluster by getting our ropes stuck on Pas de Deux. We ultimately had 2 sets of doubles running up it! There was a huge party on City LIghts, a never ending parade of folks for Frogs Head and noise noise noise.

There were two parties of 3. Maria is most often done as a 3 pitch climb. The OP doesn't come across here as willing to be educated. I imagine that was even more of the case in person.

Sorry Mr. Nice guy - 3 strikes.

This made me laugh. Ooh, ooh... trad climber, let him through, let him through!</quote>

****************

Yeah, I've got to admit that sounds elitist but the tradition at the Gunks has always been that leaders have the right of way. That tradition has been watered down over the years as there are more and more climbers...

****************

Yeah, I've got to admit that sounds elitist but the tradition at the Gunks has always been that leaders have the right of way. That tradition has been watered down over the years as there are more and more climbers. I'm not sure where you climb in CA but imagine if you went to Joshua Tree and most of the popular climbs had a top-rope dangling off the first pitch. That is what it can be like at the Gunks on a weekend.

Regardless, we're not talking about a TR situation here, I'm not sure why you're having such a hard time understanding that.

Reality check: the route in question is 5.6.

Jay

This made me laugh. Ooh, ooh... trad climber, let him through, let him through!</quote>

****************

Yeah, I've got to admit that sounds elitist but the tradition at the Gunks has always been that leaders have the right of way. That tradition has been watered down over the years as there are more and more climbers. I'm not sure where you climb in CA but imagine if you went to Joshua Tree and most of the popular climbs had a top-rope dangling off the first pitch. That is what it can be like at the Gunks on a weekend.

A regular post has priority over a cheesetitted post.

What are you 12? Thank you for your eloquent contribution to the discussion.

<quote>
you really have a hard time with this quoting thing don't you....

Sorry about the quoting thing. I'm basically in agreement with you. This particular instance is not a good case for trashing top-roping at the Gunks. There are plenty of other better cases as you point out.

Nothing but a sack of nipples mixed with velveeta.

probably because the OP explicitly states that they had set up the first pitch as a TR for their newbie friend, with no intention of going to the top of the route, instead opting to only TR the first pitch.

What are you 12? Thank you for your eloquent contribution to the discussion.

Yeah, the whole thing about leader priority, as has been discussed before, is an elitist load of shite. It's first come first served at the gunks, according to the people who own and manage the land. Don't like it? Take it up with head ranger Hank.

ckirkwood, since i was there, and was witnessing the whole thing, and discussed it with ya right after....trust me, they were in the wrong. Any other assumptions by folks here are mistaken...the guys were rude and out of line...had no manners and I am sure their mom's are not so proud.

Also, this same day, saw someone throw a rope to rap, without warning, over a leader on a pretty darn hard climb...

Note to self, don't climb on weekends in the gunks.

1. The original party of three goes with a beginner to one of the most popular and easily accessed routes on the crag and then turns a two-pitch (or, really a single pitch to the top) route into a one-pitch toprope. This is at least mindless, and I'd call it inconsiderate. Do they have a "right" to do this? Sure, but it isn't as if there weren't a bazillion choices less likely to clog.

2. The original party compounds the problem by leaving their gear in. The leader should have cleaned it on the way down. More inconsiderateness.

1. The original party of three goes with a beginner to one of the most popular and easily accessed routes on the crag and then turns a two-pitch (or, really a single pitch to the top) route into a one-pitch toprope.

2. The original party compounds the problem by leaving their gear in. The leader should have cleaned it on the way down. More inconsiderateness.

they did climb another line, sharing only a portion without gear and that the top-roper was already above. So what's the fuss about?

They got ahead of a slower party to the right? Happens all the time---everyone needs to get used to that.

It sounds to me like the first party was a bit inconsiderate but spoke politely,

and the second party was a bit surly but acted politely.

The whole lot of ya need to chill out if you are going to climb at one of the most overused locations in the entire U.S.

The herds seem to stampede to the same few spots and then have fits when they can't act as if they own the crag. There's actually plenty of room at the Gunks.

Yep, that's me...

You made your opinion clear to them, so good for you...nice lead by the way. You and your beau were real cool, it was nice to meet ya.

"I find both parties at fault"

Can't agree, at least not if you mean equally at fault. You should expect, and be prepared to tolerate, crowds. But that doesn't mean the 2d party had a right to act like jerks. And while I'd have to agree that anyone wanting to avoid such jerks would be well-advised to go on down the Carriage road a ways, I'm not willing to say that the OP did something "wrong" solely (and I emphasize solely) because he chose a popular climb. After all, routes are popular because more people choose to climb them; if that becomes bad conduct, then most people will be guilty of bad conduct. Doesn't seem like a sound approach to devising a system of ethical conduct.

If he had been hangdogging or otherwise unreasonably monopolizing the route, then maybe, but that's not how he tells it.

[.. but the OP's tone irked the....

This thread helps me appreciate what I have in life. Thanks for that.

DMT

The accepted etiquette at the Gunks has always been you don't top-rope trad lines or you at least get out of the way of trad climbers, especially on super popular three star trad climbs like Frogs Head.

This thread helps me appreciate what I have in life. Thanks for that.

DMT

hah! I always think we've got it pretty good when we get these post busy weekend gunks threads. A cliff full of easy climbs right next to NYC? Sounds like pure hell.

Obsessing about the supposed primacy of leading is the hallmark of the intermediate climber.

Jay

It's semantics, and probably could have been better stated. I believe he's getting at the difference between following and TRing. Most here wouldn't fault someone for following the leader and cleaning the gear, because that's normal. Yet by your definition it's "Toproping" and inferior. Whether or not there's fall potential has little to do with the main issue: when people set up a TR on a line and leave it up for hours giving all their friends a run on it. What the OP did here was nothing more than climb a route as a party of three. That's it, get over it.

Yeah, and thank God we get a rehashed micro-analysis of the clusterfuck given from the perspective of every. damn. one. of. them.

It's even better to imagine all of the posts as being spoken in a really nasally, loud, Brooklyn Jewish accent.

Really? I know that everyone says that, and that the guidebook says that,

Can I again ask, what guidebook do you think says that?

TE

Can I again ask, what guidebook do you think says that?

TE