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toboredtosleep
Dec 10, 2010, 5:44 AM
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I know simply asking this question I'm going to get flack and comments about how the search field on the website works. I also know that this is a dead horse thats been beat for many years.
I climb primarily in the RRG. Getting ready to expand my Trad rack. I currently have the following
Black Diamond C4 0.4-3
Black Diamond Stoppers 4-13
14 Quick Draws
Assorted slings, carabiners, etc.
I was thinking about adding a Metolius Curve Ultralight set and Master cam, sizes 00-3. And doubles on the BD from fingers to fist.
I know many climbers like Tricams, I don't have any experience using or setting them and I know they can be tricky to set. So looking for feed back on my choices. Please only post if you have constructive comments towards the topic and not "do a search man" type crap. Please also include why you'd pick something else. Thanks in advance for the feed back.
(This post was edited by toboredtosleep on Dec 10, 2010, 5:45 AM)
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esander4
Dec 10, 2010, 5:56 AM
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I've always wanted to take the trip to Kentucky to climb at RRG. But then I think, "What else is in Kentucky?" Horse racing and Johnny Depp's mother's mansion? Not enough for me.
On a serious note, if you're partial to the C4s double up on .5, .75 and 1. If you don't give 2 shits, I love the mastercams. I'd get a set from 00 to 4 or 5. You'll fall in love with them.
I'm in the same boat as you with tricams, so I don't have any input on that
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notapplicable
Dec 10, 2010, 6:31 AM
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My 2¢
You seem to have a shortage of smaller cams and nuts and no 3 lobe units at all. Those are what I would focus on.
Don't worry about the Tricams right now and I would not buy the Metolius curved nuts. There are better options available like DMM, especially for micro nuts.
Doubles are nice but I think you need TCU's and/or smaller 4 lobe units more. Metolius 0-4 would be my preference and if you're only going to get one style, I would go with the TCU's.
Also, buy a BD #4
Edited to add - If there is money left over then by all means get the doubles. You need them, I just think you need the small gear more.
(This post was edited by notapplicable on Dec 10, 2010, 6:34 AM)
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toboredtosleep
Dec 10, 2010, 6:55 AM
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I agree with the smaller gear, hence the Metolius MC 00-3. I'd prefer the Master Cam over the TCU due to the flexible stem on the Master Cam. Would it be wise to double up on something in the smaller Master Cam range verses grabbing the 0.5-1 BDs?
What DMM nuts are you referring to? I've heard great things about the offset nuts however, I've also heard that for a general rack are a little too specialized. What is your reasoning behind micro nuts, my understanding is static load only on stuff below the #4 BD.
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malcolm777b
Dec 10, 2010, 7:41 AM
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toboredtosleep wrote: What DMM nuts are you referring to? I've heard great things about the offset nuts however, I've also heard that for a general rack are a little too specialized. What is your reasoning behind micro nuts, my understanding is static load only on stuff below the #4 BD.
DMM offsets are NOT a specialized piece. I often reach a belay finding that I have placed more offsets than regular nuts. If you have them, you'll find placements for them after you learn to look for them.
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esander4
Dec 10, 2010, 8:02 AM
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toboredtosleep wrote: I agree with the smaller gear, hence the Metolius MC 00-3. I'd prefer the Master Cam over the TCU due to the flexible stem on the Master Cam. Would it be wise to double up on something in the smaller Master Cam range verses grabbing the 0.5-1 BDs? What DMM nuts are you referring to? I've heard great things about the offset nuts however, I've also heard that for a general rack are a little too specialized. What is your reasoning behind micro nuts, my understanding is static load only on stuff below the #4 BD.
Depends on the width of the cracks your climbing. When you double up on your cams, you don't always bring every piece of pro you have up with you. You might only bring one set of your small gear up for one climb, but bring double medium gear, while on a different climb bring double small gear and one set of medium gear. So to say which would be better to double up on would be difficult. You should (if you have the cash) double up on small gear and the medium size gear. If you don't have the money, start by getting 00-3 MCs and double on 2 and 3 MCs and .75 and 1 C4s
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toboredtosleep
Dec 10, 2010, 8:33 AM
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Thats a fair analysis of it. I understand that I'm not going to drag my whole rack up a climb with me. Looking at what adding the Master Cams would do to the range of my rack I like that a little better than doubling up on the BDs.
So, I know this is another loaded question, and has as many answers as climbers but when it comes to a nut set what to choose? I know its personal preference driven. Just looking to understand what people like about certain stopper sets and why.
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possum2082
Dec 10, 2010, 2:27 PM
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i've used my #6 quite a few times on the Larry Day classics
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notapplicable
Dec 10, 2010, 3:02 PM
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toboredtosleep wrote: I agree with the smaller gear, hence the Metolius MC 00-3. I'd prefer the Master Cam over the TCU due to the flexible stem on the Master Cam. Would it be wise to double up on something in the smaller Master Cam range verses grabbing the 0.5-1 BDs? What DMM nuts are you referring to? I've heard great things about the offset nuts however, I've also heard that for a general rack are a little too specialized. What is your reasoning behind micro nuts, my understanding is static load only on stuff below the #4 BD.
I think a "standard" rack needs both small 3 and 4 lobe units so definitely go for the mastercams. The argument for the TCU's, or C3's if you prefer the single stem, is that 3 lobe units are a different piece of gear with different uses but they substitute for a 4 lobe unit of the same size better than the other way around. On any route other than an obvious straight in splitter, I would grab TCU's before my mastercams or friends of the same size. They fit everywhere the others do, plus some.
As far as the micro nuts go, the DMM peenuts have a totally different profile but still have a reasonable strength rating. I find them very useful. The BD micro stoppers are another piece of interestingly shaped passive gear that I find a lot of use for. Even if you don't want to place those rated less than 5 KN, the different shapes in that strength range are infinitely useful.
That said, one of my partners has been climbing for years and climbs several letter grades harder than I do and owns no micro nuts at all. It's definitely a personal preference kind of thing. I couldn't live without them (perhaps literally) and other people don't see any need.
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johnwesely
Dec 10, 2010, 3:41 PM
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malcolm777b wrote: DMM offsets are NOT a specialized piece. I often reach a belay finding that I have placed more offsets than regular nuts. If you have them, you'll find placements for them after you learn to look for them.
I disagree. I have a set but hardly place any of them. Their usefulness really depends on the type of rock you climb on.
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spikeddem
Dec 10, 2010, 3:53 PM
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johnwesely wrote: malcolm777b wrote: DMM offsets are NOT a specialized piece. I often reach a belay finding that I have placed more offsets than regular nuts. If you have them, you'll find placements for them after you learn to look for them. I disagree. I have a set but hardly place any of them. Their usefulness really depends on the type of rock you climb on.
I think it depends on if there will be a stop.
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johnwesely
Dec 10, 2010, 3:54 PM
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spikeddem wrote: johnwesely wrote: malcolm777b wrote: DMM offsets are NOT a specialized piece. I often reach a belay finding that I have placed more offsets than regular nuts. If you have them, you'll find placements for them after you learn to look for them. I disagree. I have a set but hardly place any of them. Their usefulness really depends on the type of rock you climb on. I think it depends on if there will be a stop.
Are you going to be stopping in Rumbling Bald?
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spikeddem
Dec 10, 2010, 4:17 PM
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johnwesely wrote: spikeddem wrote: johnwesely wrote: malcolm777b wrote: DMM offsets are NOT a specialized piece. I often reach a belay finding that I have placed more offsets than regular nuts. If you have them, you'll find placements for them after you learn to look for them. I disagree. I have a set but hardly place any of them. Their usefulness really depends on the type of rock you climb on. I think it depends on if there will be a stop. Are you going to be stopping in Rumbling Bald?
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johnwesely
Dec 10, 2010, 4:19 PM
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spikeddem wrote: johnwesely wrote: spikeddem wrote: johnwesely wrote: malcolm777b wrote: DMM offsets are NOT a specialized piece. I often reach a belay finding that I have placed more offsets than regular nuts. If you have them, you'll find placements for them after you learn to look for them. I disagree. I have a set but hardly place any of them. Their usefulness really depends on the type of rock you climb on. I think it depends on if there will be a stop. Are you going to be stopping in Rumbling Bald? i'll be working
Dag.
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malcolm777b
Dec 10, 2010, 4:38 PM
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johnwesely wrote: malcolm777b wrote: DMM offsets are NOT a specialized piece. I often reach a belay finding that I have placed more offsets than regular nuts. If you have them, you'll find placements for them after you learn to look for them. I disagree. I have a set but hardly place any of them. Their usefulness really depends on the type of rock you climb on.
I heard that same thing from people about offsets not being a good type of nut for the Gunks. I brought them anyway and was placing them constantly.
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esander4
Dec 10, 2010, 4:51 PM
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toboredtosleep wrote: Thats a fair analysis of it. I understand that I'm not going to drag my whole rack up a climb with me. Looking at what adding the Master Cams would do to the range of my rack I like that a little better than doubling up on the BDs. So, I know this is another loaded question, and has as many answers as climbers but when it comes to a nut set what to choose? I know its personal preference driven. Just looking to understand what people like about certain stopper sets and why.
I have a set of the ABC Huevos and absolutely love them. They are the exact same design as BD stoppers but half as expensive. Not the greatest nut, but for the price I think it's great.
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esander4
Dec 10, 2010, 4:58 PM
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notapplicable wrote: I think a "standard" rack needs both small 3 and 4 lobe units so definitely go for the mastercams. The argument for the TCU's, or C3's if you prefer the single stem....
C3s are not single stem. They are a cleverly disguised double stem.
As for TCUs (or whatever 3 lobe) fitting where 4 lobe units will, but not the other way around, I disagree. Mastercams have lobe-head widths that is slightly smaller than that of TCUs, and they will go into more placements IMO.
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johnwesely
Dec 10, 2010, 5:01 PM
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malcolm777b wrote: johnwesely wrote: malcolm777b wrote: DMM offsets are NOT a specialized piece. I often reach a belay finding that I have placed more offsets than regular nuts. If you have them, you'll find placements for them after you learn to look for them. I disagree. I have a set but hardly place any of them. Their usefulness really depends on the type of rock you climb on. I heard that same thing from people about offsets not being a good type of nut for the Gunks. I brought them anyway and was placing them constantly.
I placed mine more than average at the Gunks but still not a ton. Maybe I just suck at them?
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toboredtosleep
Dec 10, 2010, 6:01 PM
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In reply to: malcolm777b wrote: johnwesely wrote: malcolm777b wrote: DMM offsets are NOT a specialized piece. I often reach a belay finding that I have placed more offsets than regular nuts. If you have them, you'll find placements for them after you learn to look for them. I disagree. I have a set but hardly place any of them. Their usefulness really depends on the type of rock you climb on. I heard that same thing from people about offsets not being a good type of nut for the Gunks. I brought them anyway and was placing them constantly.
Just in case anyone cares:
http://www.supertopo.com/review/DMM-Offset-Nut
I noticed that their sizing is 7-11# would you still achieve the same versatility compare to the larger sets, say the DMM Wallnut?
Answered my own question, but for others reading:
DMM Wallnuts - 7mm - 35mm
DMM Offsets 12mm-30mm
(This post was edited by toboredtosleep on Dec 10, 2010, 6:08 PM)
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jrathfon
Dec 10, 2010, 7:33 PM
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Since I actually climb in the Red almost every weekend and have touched maybe 6 sport routes in my 1.5 years since I moved here, I'll chime in.
If what you truly want to do is climb routes in the Red, my take is:
Nuts: You have enough nuts. Curve nuts are crap, the 3 large brassy offsets are quite nice in our rock and I find myself going to them more than standard BD aluminums in that size. In most of our rock, nuts smaller than ~ a BD #4 typically don't hold much, there are occassional spots of harder rock, but general I look for large nut placements.
Small cams: 3 lobe micro cams are sh!te in our rock, I've seen/had ~ 6-7 blow out, and have heard of probably 7 or 8. The typical mode of failure is they crunch the rock, slide, jam like a nut onto the cam stops and shear the cam stops, sometimes without the last step. I prefer aliens: more bite, softer lobe material and more redundant (4 lobes). Since these aren't available I'd go with the mastercams equivalent to a blue, green, and yellow alien.
Tricams: great for the gunks/NC, leave them at home for the red, why bother with 'em? just place big nuts or cams, unless you are doing the 3 (hyperbole) odd routes in the gorge where you must protect a pocket.
General suggestion: most of the really great lines in the red (subjective of course) are the splitter cracks. andromeda strain, crack attack, rebar, inhibitor, roadside, oberon, etc. thus, you need a lot of hand pieces. Our typical rack (granted split between a few people) that gets taken to the crag is a full double rack to #4, trips from 0.75-2 and a #5. There are some cracks that take more, some take less. A great rack for andromeda is trip 2's and 3's and one 0.5, 0.75. Crack attack is trip or quad 1's, trip 2's and a 3.
What I am getting at is that doubles in the mid sizes, specifically #1 and #2, are what you will place 20 times over compared to a blue alien or a #4 brassie.
On top of this a lot of gorge routes tend to have one section of wide crack, a #4 is awesome, and there are definitely a number of routes where a #5 takes the sting out.
When you get your full double rack and want to start adding on specialty pieces I would double up on #5's and #6's, there are a lot of fun OW's that only need those 4 cams to be safe (walk 'em).
edit to add:
all the gear I'd ever want for free at the Red, without having a partner, would be:
BD nuts 4-11
4 largest offset brassies
double aliens from blue - red
single C3's purple, green, red
double 0.3 - 0.5 BD
three 0.75 - 3 BD
two 4 - 6 BD
blue and gold big bro
and you could pretty much get everything done from tips to OW/chimney
perfect cragging rack, will get most everything done:
BD nuts 4-11
3 largest offset brassies
blue, green, yellow aliens
green, red c3
one 0.3, 0.4 BD
two 0.5, 0.75
trip 1, 2, 3
two 4
one 5
(This post was edited by jrathfon on Dec 10, 2010, 7:48 PM)
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jrathfon
Dec 10, 2010, 7:39 PM
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As far as my sling rack, I carry:
2 double length slings
6 single length slings (aka "tard draws" aka "alpine draws")
6 "spurt" draws, mostly 20cm, some 15cm
a cordalette (usually gets chopped for sling anchors)
all of my draws are small wiregates (mostly notchless), with a couple of keylock biners thrown in the mix.
usually this is overkill as most of our routes are straight cracks and we tend to direct clip cams. I will usually be carrying 8 draws (4 trad, 4 sport) up a route, which includes the 2 for the anchors (assuming bolts).
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notapplicable
Dec 11, 2010, 2:13 AM
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esander4 wrote: notapplicable wrote: I think a "standard" rack needs both small 3 and 4 lobe units so definitely go for the mastercams. The argument for the TCU's, or C3's if you prefer the single stem.... C3s are not single stem. They are a cleverly disguised double stem.
Ok thats fair. They are a doubleish stem unit.
In reply to: As for TCUs (or whatever 3 lobe) fitting where 4 lobe units will, but not the other way around, I disagree. Mastercams have lobe-head widths that is slightly smaller than that of TCUs, and they will go into more placements IMO.
Yeah, definitely have to disagree with you there.
Franks Red Hot TCU's, I put that shit on everything!
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esander4
Dec 11, 2010, 8:20 AM
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notapplicable wrote: esander4 wrote: notapplicable wrote: I think a "standard" rack needs both small 3 and 4 lobe units so definitely go for the mastercams. The argument for the TCU's, or C3's if you prefer the single stem.... C3s are not single stem. They are a cleverly disguised double stem. Ok thats fair. They are a doubleish stem unit. In reply to: As for TCUs (or whatever 3 lobe) fitting where 4 lobe units will, but not the other way around, I disagree. Mastercams have lobe-head widths that is slightly smaller than that of TCUs, and they will go into more placements IMO. Yeah, definitely have to disagree with you there. Franks Red Hot TCU's, I put that shit on everything!
Disagree with what part? That the width of the head is smaller or that they go in more placements? Because it for sure can't be the first one. It definitely is smaller. (In all fairness though, before I post I actually held up my #1 Mastercam and #1 TCU and compared the widths. I thought, "Self, don't make yourself look like a dumbass off a theory". Turns out I was right.) I mean I guess it can be personal preference for which goes where more, but the smaller head does let me get it in shallower cracks (That's what she said?).
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notapplicable
Dec 11, 2010, 6:49 PM
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esander4 wrote: notapplicable wrote: esander4 wrote: notapplicable wrote: I think a "standard" rack needs both small 3 and 4 lobe units so definitely go for the mastercams. The argument for the TCU's, or C3's if you prefer the single stem.... C3s are not single stem. They are a cleverly disguised double stem. Ok thats fair. They are a doubleish stem unit. In reply to: As for TCUs (or whatever 3 lobe) fitting where 4 lobe units will, but not the other way around, I disagree. Mastercams have lobe-head widths that is slightly smaller than that of TCUs, and they will go into more placements IMO. Yeah, definitely have to disagree with you there. Franks Red Hot TCU's, I put that shit on everything! Disagree with what part? That the width of the head is smaller or that they go in more placements? Because it for sure can't be the first one. It definitely is smaller. (In all fairness though, before I post I actually held up my #1 Mastercam and #1 TCU and compared the widths. I thought, "Self, don't make yourself look like a dumbass off a theory". Turns out I was right.) I mean I guess it can be personal preference for which goes where more, but the smaller head does let me get it in shallower cracks (That's what she said?).
No the overall head width is narrower on the master cam. It has just been my experience that the TCU's are more of a "just what I needed" piece than 4 lobe units of the same size, including mastercams. The obvious exception being shallow vertical cracks...and pin scars, I guess. I wouldn't really know about the pin scars personally because I just don't run across them in the areas I frequent.
The difference in preference could be due to the areas and rocktype we climb; it could also be personal style in how we protect routes and select placements. More likely, it's a little of both.
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kikitastrophe
Dec 11, 2010, 8:54 PM
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The red river gorge trad is pretty sweet, but it's not the easiest to put gear in - some of those damn cracks undulate and you might want to pack extra panties.
On stoppers:
I love the WC rocks - they are longer in the metal piece that goes in the crack. Which might mean it won't slide as far out before it comes out? I don't know, just hold one side by side it's corresponding BD stopper and you'll know what I mean.
On more gear:
I totally agree with doubling up on the common cams, BD 0.5-3 you probably want two of, especially if you want to go out west and play on the big lines. Also, I love my #4 with a passion [A PASSION!].
And finally, on the tricams:
Tricams are completely awesome. Once you learn how to place them you'll realize how bomber they can be, then you will earn the respect of people, and maybe be self-righteous on trad climbing internet forums. This is true, but also they weigh less than cams and you are more likely to still have the right size on you when you're setting up an anchor. So buy some (they're cheaper too!) And learn 'em.
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