(please take at least an hour to understand what I wrote before replying)

(please take at least an hour to understand what I wrote before replying)

So, do you think that with a definition of Go/no go decision, we can have a clear definition between sport and trade?

No, that won't be necessary. You're not Derrida.

(please take at least an hour to understand what I wrote before replying)

Maybe about the gear placement stuff, but all of the stuff about movement, sequences, holds, all are true for sport as well.[..] I don't think the distinction between trad and sport is so simple that you can state "In trad, climbers make decisions. In sport, climbers make no decisions".[..] Yes, there do tend to be, in my mind, more decisions and calculations that you must make for trad than for sport, however.

HA!

(please take at least an hour to understand what I wrote before replying)
I heard about "go/no go decision" in a TV program on the Apollo mission. The NASA made a go/no go check up for each parts of the trip to the moon. What is a go/no go decision? It is a question you ask to yourself before you make an action. When the answer is positive, you go for it. It is a decision to continue the mission or to come back. What can be a go/no go decision in climbing?

In sport, the climber looks for a bolt and clips it. They never, and cannot, test the bolt. The climber does not take a decision. They go/go to be at the top of the route

In trad, the climber has to decide many thinks. For example, the climber put is first piece of pro after the belay and are in a rest place. He has to take some of these decisions:

1- Do I see where I can place the next pro? Go/no go...if I cannot see it:

1a-where is the highest point I can climb before bailing?
1b- my pro is it in the good position for a fall in that direction
1c Can I go looks Go/no go

2- Can I see the sequence of movement to the next pro? Go/no go...If I cannot see it:

2a- Do I see the holes? If not can, I look and come back to my stance?
2b- Can I divide the sequence in two or three sequences with a rest for each?
2c- Will I be injuring if I fall?
2d- Can I go take a look?

3- Do I know all the movement of the sequence? go/no go....

a- If I have more than one technique possible

3a- Will I be injure with the first technique
3b- Will I be injure with the other technique
3c- Which technique is safer go/no go

b- If I can not see the technique

3a- Can I go looks and come back?
3b- Can I fall safely?
3c- Do I want to try? go/no go

With that definition, the difference between trad and sport is not just using pro, but also a game where you have to take decision and gain confidence on yourself. Nobody can tell you if you are right or wrong, it is pure fun. The goal is not to reach the top of an hard climb, but to place good pro and safe move without previous knowledge.

What about sport climber who climb the route by the top, decide of the sequences and clean the place where they want to place a pro. Did they have to take decision? In my opinion, they do not. They have to remember what they have done the day before. Placing pro whatever it is possible is not taking decision too.

So, do you think that with a definition of Go/no go decision, we can have a clear definition between sport and trade?

Whether you clip the next bolt or place another piece is up to you most of the time.

Gee that's good to know. The next time I am way run out on some featureless face I'll just choose "place".

The only things to consider are:
Will the gear below be keep me out of danger?
Is the gear below me good?
[...}
Whether you clip the next bolt or place another piece is up to you most of the time.

old eric: place instead of take... that's a good one.

corrupt, do I understand that you said that you climb and when you are in danger of a fall, you look below you and if the guy which place the bolt did a bad job, you are going to die if you fall. If not, what can you do for it when you are above the bolt?

I use the fall factor to evaluate the maximum distance of the other pro high above me. I use a fall factor of 0.5 and place to pro in a row if I decide to run it out. I scan all possibility, even the one when there is no place for a gear. At that moment, I already guested the forces my last pro can hold before poping out. I already decide where I am going to fall and I never look below me after (I'm to scary), except if my partner warn me of a zipper effect. as Olderic said, now it is emotional.

Do I understand that at the bolt, you look the next one and go to it. In your way, up, you look donw for a safe fall without previous thinking? Is it happen to someone who go for it and didn't find any good pro and cannot bail? What is your opinion.

Look, the distinction of a "trad climber", so to speak, is the ability to walk up to some piece of rock that he knows nothing about...

All of this obsessing over falling, estimating safe fall zones and distances, pretending that you know what your fall factor is and how much each placement can hold at any point on a climb, and generally overthinking the shit out of everything has absolutely nothing to do with traditional climbing.

I am confuse.I didn't know that the first five edition of mountaineering freedom of the hill was wrong. In the fifth edition, they have a graph where we have the relation between the fall factor and the force on the pro. But, you right, they are all wrong. Fifty years of climber, five generation do all wrong.

I agree that in the last three edition, 6 to 8, the mentality change. They explain a procedure: you clip and go.

I am of the old generation. why is it so bad to have a definition of trad climbing that we can be proud of it? if I swing in a lake an get out of the water on a rock: I am trad climbing with your definition

Trad=Moveable protection
Sport=Fixed Protection

Seems enough for most of us.

Jim

[First, I didn't say anything about FOTH or its definition of fall factors. My contention is that if you think that in the field, mid-climb, you are remotely capable of analyzing and accurately calculating fall factors, potential forces on gear, and at what force you can expect your gear to fail in any given fall, then you're living in a complete fantasy land.

I don't know. Did you spend at least an hour thinking about Jacque's post before writing like you were asked to?

Jay

Took me best part of a day to work out what he was on about.
And the post between us is breathtaking in its complexity, you have all day to work it out and I´ll read your analysis when I wake in the morning!

Jim

Jim

Trad=Moveable protection
Sport=Fixed Protection

Seems enough for most of us.

Jim

Trad=Moveable protection
Sport=Fixed Protection

Seems enough for most of us.

Jim

I don't know. Did you spend at least an hour thinking about Jacque's post before writing like you were asked to?

Jay

I don't know. Did you spend at least an hour thinking about Jacque's post before writing like you were asked to?

Jay

Mostly, but not completely. You're climbing a multi-pitch trad route and you come to the crux--a 30 foot finger crack, which has 5 stuck stoppers jammed into it. It's still a trad route.

I was climbing a sport route, which at my ability level seemed runout between bolts. I had carried up some small gear, which I was able to wiggle in between the spread out bolts and felt good about it. However, a young climber said that I had cheated by adding the extra gear. Oh, well.

rob.calm

quite a few climbs in squishiland and skaha are designed for you to carry gear up for between the bolts

theres no real reason IMO to put a bolt next to a perfectly good crack if the protection is good

i think some people call these "mixed" climbs ... not to be confused with the ice/mixed term

[or aid/free

I am able to do that kind of analysis or scanning. I can evaluate it with the elongation of the rope on rp's because I did aid climbing and fall on my pro voluntarly. That need a lot of practice and the standard error his big (plus or minus three, five or six feet). Best climber are not those who can describe it scientificaly. Some guide follow the fall factor mathematically because they learned it from climber who climb before us. The emotional part is on how I can trust my analysis. When you succeed, you are not climbing a route, it is pure fun.

As you can not do the analysis or scanning. I am sorry for you. It is useless to talk about a definition that you can not understand. I just feel sorry that some of us, who talk about scanning and emotional part of trad climbing can not bring there opinion because of your ignorance. It is not fun to be humiliate like that and you probably do the same with your fellow sport climber.

Is it to bring the climber in a children garden where nobody can be hurt. Or is it just because you never thought about it. I don't know.

I know it's not your fault, but you should probably know:
Your posts are nearly impossible to comprehend.

I know it's not your fault, but you should probably know:
Your posts are nearly impossible to comprehend.

I am able to do that kind of analysis or scanning. I can evaluate it with the elongation of the rope on rp's because I did aid climbing and fall on my pro voluntarly. That need a lot of practice and the standard error his big (plus or minus three, five or six feet). Best climber are not those who can describe it scientificaly. Some guide follow the fall factor mathematically because they learned it from climber who climb before us. The emotional part is on how I can trust my analysis. When you succeed, you are not climbing a route, it is pure fun.

As you can not do the analysis or scanning. I am sorry for you. It is useless to talk about a definition that you can not understand. I just feel sorry that some of us, who talk about scanning and emotional part of trad climbing can not bring there opinion because of your ignorance. It is not fun to be humiliate like that and you probably do the same with your fellow sport climber.

Is it to bring the climber in a children garden where nobody can be hurt. Or is it just because you never thought about it. I don't know.

I think what Jaques wants to hear is you are so coool because u are a trad climber, and all sport climbers are so lame (and boulders, and any body that climbs in any other way) and you are better than us, and your name is cooler, and all the boys will like u for what you do and not who you are. I am sick of all the people who think what they do is better than everybody else. Just go climb, and dont think about it so much.....LAME

Agreed...Climbing is climbing..to each his own...I am a trad climber...have been since the 70's, hell there was not even such a thing as sport climbing then. More adventure I think, even if the route is well known you still have to find placements....make decisions...
Two roads diverged in a wood and I - I took the one less traveled by, and that has made all the difference. Robert Frost
nuff said.....

So you think there is a smaller population of trad climbers now than there was in the 70's?

In the 70's trad climbers made up 100% of rock climbers. Today I would suspect less than 15% of humans who will put on a climbing harness this year will will lead or follow on gear.

That's not what he asked. The % might be lower, but I'd be willing to bet there are far more trad climbers now than there were in the 70's.

In the 70's trad climbers made up 100% of rock climbers. Today I would suspect less than 15% of humans who will put on a climbing harness this year will will lead or follow on gear.

That's not what he asked. The % might be lower, but I'd be willing to bet there are far more trad climbers now than there were in the 70's

I think what Jaques wants to hear is you are so coool because u are a trad climber, and all sport climbers are so lame [..]
I am sick of all the people who think what they do is better than everybody else.

That's not what he asked. The % might be lower, but I'd be willing to bet there are far more trad climbers now than there were in the 70's.

What he asked isn't particularly interesting or relevant compared to what percentage of the total demographic trad climbs - that's the number that counts relative to describing climbing today.

You'll have to explain the so what of that to me and make me understand why it's important.

As pointed out by others, it's a percentage that started at 100% and is probably down to 15% or less and suspect it will continue to decline.

As pointed out by others, it's a percentage that started at 100% and is probably down to 15% or ess and suspect it will continue to decline.

"How to load a hole": Saying instead "How to place gear" would be less distracting.

There are more ways to fuck yourself up with traditional climbing than with pure sport climbing (whatever 'pure' means). Those ways could indeed be defined in a go/no-go paradigm.

My observations in NC are somewhat different.

"How to load a hole": Saying instead "How to place gear" would be less distracting.

I'm pretty sure he meant "how to load a hold" (typo e for d). As in, if you're dealing with anything even slightly iffy/loose, you try to make sure that any pull on it is downwards, rather than outwards.

I was looking at this usage: "How to load a hole is somethink not so important in a gym or in a sport climbing route. You need that skill in trad, but not in sport."

I can see how your interpretation works. Still not certain that was the intent.

Yeah, I thought it meant loading a hole as in putting a piece of gear into a pocket.